(no subject)

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I have a 10 gig log file; I currently go through the log looking at
specific fields and do stuff with the particular rows based on certain
conditions. Each row has 12 columns. The only columns that I need are
column 6 and 8. Each column is delimited by "somedata". So an example
row would look like:

=20

"column1" "column2" "column3" "column4" "column5" "column6" "column7"
"column8" "column9" "column10" "column11" "column12"

=20

What would be the most optimal way to see if the word "pink" was in
column 6 and "blue" was in column 8? Keep in mind that pink or blue
could appear anywhere else in this line.


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Re: (no subject)

Chris Cappelletti wrote:
> I have a 10 gig log file; I currently go through the log looking at
> specific fields and do stuff with the particular rows based on certain
> conditions. Each row has 12 columns. The only columns that I need are
> column 6 and 8. Each column is delimited by =93somedata=94. So an exa=
mple
> row would look like:
>=20
> =93column1=94 =93column2=94 =93column3=94 =93column4=94 =93column5=94 =93=
column6=94 =93column7=94
> =93column8=94 =93column9=94 =93column10=94 =93column11=94 =93column12=94
>=20
> What would be the most optimal way to see if the word =93pink=94 was in
> column 6 and =93blue=94 was in column 8? Keep in mind that pink or blu=
e
> could appear anywhere else in this line.

Untested:

foreach (@row_of_data) {

my @flds =3D split;
if ($flds[5] eq '"pink"' and $flds[7] eq '"blue"') {
# found one
}
}

--=20
,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.ne=
t
(_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
/ ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic http://www.todbe=
..com/
-/-' /___/_<_ _______________________________________________
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Re: (no subject)

I think the tricky part is that spaces may appear within the "..." field.=
In
which case the pattern may well be:
/^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\s=
+"(
[^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"( [^"]+)"\s+$/)

But I'm a rookie on regex, so this may not be optimal.

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "$Bill Luebkert"
To: "Chris Cappelletti"
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: (no subject)


> Chris Cappelletti wrote:
> > I have a 10 gig log file; I currently go through the log looking at
> > specific fields and do stuff with the particular rows based on certai=
n
> > conditions. Each row has 12 columns. The only columns that I need ar=
e
> > column 6 and 8. Each column is delimited by =93somedata=94. So an e=
xample
> > row would look like:
> >
> > =93column1=94 =93column2=94 =93column3=94 =93column4=94 =93column5=94=
=93column6=94 =93column7=94
> > =93column8=94 =93column9=94 =93column10=94 =93column11=94 =93column12=
=94
> >
> > What would be the most optimal way to see if the word =93pink=94 was =
in
> > column 6 and =93blue=94 was in column 8? Keep in mind that pink or b=
lue
> > could appear anywhere else in this line.
>
> Untested:
>
> foreach (@row_of_data) {
>
> my @flds =3D split;
> if ($flds[5] eq '"pink"' and $flds[7] eq '"blue"') {
> # found one
> }
> }
>
> --=20
> ,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.=
net
> (_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
> / ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic
http://www.todbe.com/
> -/-' /___/_<_ )
> _______________________________________________
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs

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Re: (no subject)

Foo Ji-Haw wrote:
> I think the tricky part is that spaces may appear within the "..." field. In
> which case the pattern may well be:
> /^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\s+"(
> [^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"( [^"]+)"\s+$/)
>
> But I'm a rookie on regex, so this may not be optimal.

You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior posts.

You can just adjust the split:

foreach (@lines) {
my @flds = split /"\s+"|^"|"$/; # remove "s - column0 will now be empty
if ($flds[6] eq 'pink' and $flds[8] eq 'blue') {
print "found one: $_\n";
}
}

--
,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
(_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
/ ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic http://www.todbe.com/
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Re: (no subject)

$Bill Luebkert wrote:
> Foo Ji-Haw wrote:
>
>> I think the tricky part is that spaces may appear within the "..." field. In
>> which case the pattern may well be:
>> /^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\s+"(
>> [^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"( [^"]+)"\s+$/)
>
>
> You can just adjust the split:
>
> foreach (@lines) {
> my @flds = split /"\s+"|^"|"$/; # remove "s - column0 will now be empty
> if ($flds[6] eq 'pink' and $flds[8] eq 'blue') {
> print "found one: $_\n";
> }
> }
>
>
While Bill and I both suggested the split (me because I thought it was
faster and more clearly expressed), I was bored and decided to work out
just how much slower the regex would be. Having now benchmarked 8
variations. I have to say "I was wrong".

On a 6MB test file, The regex ran in 2.48secs while my split ran in
6.19secs. Here's the variations I tried and the timings...

1) My version of the split: *6.19s*
@columns = split /\"\s+\"/


2) Bill's most recent version: *9.34s*
@columns = split /"\s+"|^"|"$/


3) Ji-Haw's original regex: *2.48s*
/^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"/


4) Ji-Haw's with a stored pattern to make it vaguely more readable: *3.2s*
my $field = '"([^"]+)"';
/^$field\s+$field\s+$field\s+$field\s+$field\s+$field\s+$fie ld\s+$field\s+$field\s+$field\s+$field\s+$field/;


5) With //o which didn't make any difference on 6MB but ran about 30%
faster on a 270MB test file. I'm not sure why based on a previous list
discussion.


6) A global pattern match which was more readable: *4.95s*
my $field = '"([^"]+)"';
my($pink,$blue) = (/$field/g)[5,7];


7) To try to increase the speed of the matches, I decided to weed out
lines not containing pink or blue: *1.2s*
next unless /blue/;
next unless /pink/;
/^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"/o;


8) Encouraged by that effort I tried the previous in a single match: *1.11s*
/^"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"(pink)" \s+"[^"]+"\s+"(blue)"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+ "/

Conclusions:
A) I have too much time on my hands. The benchmarks on a 270MB file were
taking 5 mins per pass. The 6MB performance was almost always proportional.
B) regex appears to be significantly faster than split.
C) I believe the split is the most readable and for trivial to medium
tasks I'd still use it so the next person can see what I've done.
D) I like version 6, the global regex because it's short, clean and a
fair compromise on performance
E) If I was running through a 10GB file, I'd be running some variation
on v8 and using fast filtering to eliminate the bulk of the file.
F) Bearing in mind that my test file only had blue|pink on 1% of it's
entries, your mileage may vary.


my $field = '"([^"]+)"';
for (){

if(/^"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"pink "\s+"[^"]+"\s+"blue"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+"\s+"[^"]+" /){
#do stuff here...
}
}
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Re: (no subject)

Steve Dawson wrote:
>
> While Bill and I both suggested the split (me because I thought it was
> faster and more clearly expressed), I was bored and decided to work out
> just how much slower the regex would be. Having now benchmarked 8
> variations. I have to say "I was wrong".

The RE is going to be faster and more appropriate for very large files
because it doesn't have to create the field arrays. For small files
or low data counts I'd still use the simpler split since it's more
versatile.

> On a 6MB test file, The regex ran in 2.48secs while my split ran in
> 6.19secs. Here's the variations I tried and the timings...
>
> 1) My version of the split: *6.19s*
> @columns = split /\"\s+\"/

This one is faster than below, but doesn't handle field 1 and n.
You could also use something like: split /\s*("[^"]+")\s*/ untested.
And toss every other field (even fields).

> 2) Bill's most recent version: *9.34s*
> @columns = split /"\s+"|^"|"$/

This one allows for spaces.


--
,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
(_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
/ ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic http://www.todbe.com/
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Top posting

When a post starts to contain more than one previous message or pane, top
posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom posting,
it's hard to find the most recent message.

--Bob van Keuren
San Diego


-----Original Message-----
From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
[mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com]On Behalf Of $Bill
Luebkert
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:42 AM
To: Chris Cappelletti
Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
Subject: [lists] Re: (no subject)


Foo Ji-Haw wrote:
> I think the tricky part is that spaces may appear within the "..." field.
In
> which case the pattern may well be:
>
/^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\s+"(
> [^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"( [^"]+)"\s+$/)
>
> But I'm a rookie on regex, so this may not be optimal.

You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior posts.

You can just adjust the split:

foreach (@lines) {
my @flds = split /"\s+"|^"|"$/; # remove "s - column0 will now be empty
if ($flds[6] eq 'pink' and $flds[8] eq 'blue') {
print "found one: $_\n";
}
}

--
,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
(_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
/ ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic
http://www.todbe.com/
-/-' /___/_<_ _______________________________________________
ActivePerl mailing list
ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs




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RE: Top posting

That is just a preference and most of usenet does not follow it.

A: Yes, it is.
Q: Is top posting bad?

YMMV

Robert

> -----Original Message-----
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com [mailto:activeperl-
> bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com] On Behalf Of R. S. van Keuren
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:03 AM
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: Top posting
>
> When a post starts to contain more than one previous message or pane,
top
> posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom
posting,
> it's hard to find the most recent message.
>
> --Bob van Keuren
> San Diego
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
> [mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com]On Behalf Of $Bill
> Luebkert
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:42 AM
> To: Chris Cappelletti
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: [lists] Re: (no subject)
>
>
> Foo Ji-Haw wrote:
> > I think the tricky part is that spaces may appear within the "..."
field.
> In
> > which case the pattern may well be:
> >
>
/^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\
s+"(
> >
[^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"( [^"]+)"\s+$/
)
> >
> > But I'm a rookie on regex, so this may not be optimal.
>
> You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
posts.
>
> You can just adjust the split:
>
> foreach (@lines) {
> my @flds = split /"\s+"|^"|"$/; # remove "s - column0 will now
be
> empty
> if ($flds[6] eq 'pink' and $flds[8] eq 'blue') {
> print "found one: $_\n";
> }
> }
>
> --
> ,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert
Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
> (_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
> / ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic
> http://www.todbe.com/
> -/-' /___/_<_ stuff)
> _______________________________________________
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs

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RE: Top posting

I agree. I thought $Bill's post from the (no subject) thread...

> You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
posts.

.... was ...

1) incorrect - as top posting is much easier to follow
2) ambiguous - do you mean 'don't top post and DON'T trim prior posts' or
'don't top post and DO trim prior posts'? (free from sin, casting stones
etc)
3) unpleasant - $Bill, who are you to make snydey remarks like that anyhow?

Mark

> -----Original Message-----
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
> [mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com]On Behalf Of R. S.
> van Keuren
> Sent: 04 October 2005 14:03
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: Top posting
>
>
> When a post starts to contain more than one previous message or pane, top
> posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom posting,
> it's hard to find the most recent message.
>
> --Bob van Keuren
> San Diego
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
> [mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com]On Behalf Of $Bill
> Luebkert
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:42 AM
> To: Chris Cappelletti
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: [lists] Re: (no subject)
>
>
> Foo Ji-Haw wrote:
> > I think the tricky part is that spaces may appear within the
> "..." field.
> In
> > which case the pattern may well be:
> >
> /^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^
> "]+)"\s+"(
> >
> [^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"( [^"]+)"\s+$/)
> >
> > But I'm a rookie on regex, so this may not be optimal.
>
> You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the
> prior posts.
>
> You can just adjust the split:
>
> foreach (@lines) {
> my @flds = split /"\s+"|^"|"$/; # remove "s - column0 will
> now be empty
> if ($flds[6] eq 'pink' and $flds[8] eq 'blue') {
> print "found one: $_\n";
> }
> }
>
> --
> ,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
> (_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
> / ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic
> http://www.todbe.com/
> -/-' /___/_<_ > _______________________________________________
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
>
>


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Re: Top posting

R. S. van Keuren wrote:
> When a post starts to contain more than one previous message or pane, top
> posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom posting,
> it's hard to find the most recent message.

Bull. If you properly trim and intersperse your replies, you have the best
possible result. Look at all the crap you left in your post. We don't
need a flame war here - at one point in time it was stated in the FAQ how
to properly reply to a post. Just becuase you're lazy, don't make that an
excuse to give up on proper etiquette.

--
,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
(_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
/ ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic http://www.todbe.com/
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RE: Top posting

For what it's worth, e-mail programs like MS Outlook make it difficult to
*not* top-post.

For example, if one changes MS Outlook 2003's default setting to have the >
character in front of each line of the original e-mail message, MS Outlook
immediately displays a message warning that the setting will cause problems
with spell-checking.

Using MS Outlook to post a message in the more acceptable manner can take a
significant amount of time, searching for and then changing MS Outlook's
default settings or manually reformatting the message.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
[mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com] On Behalf Of Hicks, Bob
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:33 AM
To: R. S. van Keuren
Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
Subject: RE: Top posting

That is just a preference and most of usenet does not follow it.

A: Yes, it is.
Q: Is top posting bad?

YMMV

Robert

> -----Original Message-----
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com [mailto:activeperl-
> bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com] On Behalf Of R. S. van Keuren
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:03 AM
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: Top posting
>
> When a post starts to contain more than one previous message or pane,
top
> posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom
posting,
> it's hard to find the most recent message.
>
> --Bob van Keuren
> San Diego
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
> [mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com]On Behalf Of $Bill
> Luebkert
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:42 AM
> To: Chris Cappelletti
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: [lists] Re: (no subject)
>
>
> Foo Ji-Haw wrote:
> > I think the tricky part is that spaces may appear within the "..."
field.
> In
> > which case the pattern may well be:
> >
>
/^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\
s+"(
> >
[^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"( [^"]+)"\s+$/
)
> >
> > But I'm a rookie on regex, so this may not be optimal.
>
> You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
posts.
>
> You can just adjust the split:
>
> foreach (@lines) {
> my @flds = split /"\s+"|^"|"$/; # remove "s - column0 will now
be
> empty
> if ($flds[6] eq 'pink' and $flds[8] eq 'blue') {
> print "found one: $_\n";
> }
> }
>
> --
> ,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert
Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
> (_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
> / ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic
> http://www.todbe.com/
> -/-' /___/_<_ stuff)
> _______________________________________________
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs

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RE: Top posting

That is absolutely true...

Robert

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rward@surveycrafter.com [mailto:rward@surveycrafter.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 10:23 AM
> To: Hicks, Bob; 'R. S. van Keuren'
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: RE: Top posting
>
> For what it's worth, e-mail programs like MS Outlook make it difficult
to
> *not* top-post.
>
> For example, if one changes MS Outlook 2003's default setting to have
the >
> character in front of each line of the original e-mail message, MS
Outlook
> immediately displays a message warning that the setting will cause
problems
> with spell-checking.
>
> Using MS Outlook to post a message in the more acceptable manner can
take a
> significant amount of time, searching for and then changing MS
Outlook's
> default settings or manually reformatting the message.
>
> Richard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
> [mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com] On Behalf Of
Hicks, Bob
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:33 AM
> To: R. S. van Keuren
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: RE: Top posting
>
> That is just a preference and most of usenet does not follow it.
>
> A: Yes, it is.
> Q: Is top posting bad?
>
> YMMV
>
> Robert
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
[mailto:activeperl-
> > bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com] On Behalf Of R. S. van Keuren
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:03 AM
> > Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > Subject: Top posting
> >
> > When a post starts to contain more than one previous message or
pane,
> top
> > posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom
> posting,
> > it's hard to find the most recent message.
> >
> > --Bob van Keuren
> > San Diego
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > [mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com]On Behalf Of
$Bill
> > Luebkert
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:42 AM
> > To: Chris Cappelletti
> > Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > Subject: [lists] Re: (no subject)
> >
> >
> > Foo Ji-Haw wrote:
> > > I think the tricky part is that spaces may appear within the "..."
> field.
> > In
> > > which case the pattern may well be:
> > >
> >
>
/^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\
> s+"(
> > >
>
[^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"( [^"]+)"\s+$/
> )
> > >
> > > But I'm a rookie on regex, so this may not be optimal.
> >
> > You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the
prior
> posts.
> >
> > You can just adjust the split:
> >
> > foreach (@lines) {
> > my @flds = split /"\s+"|^"|"$/; # remove "s - column0 will now
> be
> > empty
> > if ($flds[6] eq 'pink' and $flds[8] eq 'blue') {
> > print "found one: $_\n";
> > }
> > }
> >
> > --
> > ,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert
> Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
> > (_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
> > / ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic
> > http://www.todbe.com/
> > -/-' /___/_<_ > stuff)
> > _______________________________________________
> > ActivePerl mailing list
> > ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ActivePerl mailing list
> > ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
>
> _______________________________________________
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs


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RE: Top posting

> That is just a preference and most of usenet does not follow it.
=======
YSTHM "religious war" HTH HAND


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RE: Top posting

> 1) incorrect - as top posting is much easier to follow

While I agree that top posting is easier to follow, how does that make his
statement incorrect? He was stating a request, not a fact. The fact is the
help on active state for this mailing list says to bottom post :
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/help#4 .


> 2) ambiguous - do you mean 'don't top post and DON'T trim prior posts' or
> 'don't top post and DO trim prior posts'? (free from sin, casting stones
> etc)

Now who's being picky? Let's not flame please. Mostly common sense would
tell you that people don't want to read all the garbage from previous posts,
and that trimming is the right thing to do but I digress.

> 3) unpleasant - $Bill, who are you to make snydey remarks like that
> anyhow?

I'll tell you who he is. One of the few people I recognize from being on
this list for 4 years. He has the ability to respond to difficult questions,
and is generally well spoken, clear, concise and extremely helpful. So
before you go barking at dragons how about your dry behind your ears? How
long have you been on this list?

-Wayne


CAM Automation Programmer
Unicircuit Inc.
Littleton, Colorado
303-738-5390




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Knoop [mailto:mark@inetplc.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 7:54 AM
> To: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: RE: Top posting
>
> I agree. I thought $Bill's post from the (no subject) thread...
>
> > You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
> posts.
>
> ... was ...
>
> 1) incorrect - as top posting is much easier to follow
> 2) ambiguous - do you mean 'don't top post and DON'T trim prior posts' or
> 'don't top post and DO trim prior posts'? (free from sin, casting stones
> etc)
> 3) unpleasant - $Bill, who are you to make snydey remarks like that
> anyhow?
>
> Mark
>

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Re: Top posting

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The problem with top posting is that it makes for a tottally illogical orde=
r
of messages. Rather than reading from top to bottom (as we are taught from
an early age) you end up reading from bottom to top.

Lou

On 10/4/05, Hicks, Bob wrote:
>
> That is just a preference and most of usenet does not follow it.
>
> A: Yes, it is.
> Q: Is top posting bad?
>
> YMMV
>
> Robert
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com [mailto:activeperl-
> > bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com] On Behalf Of R. S. van Keuren
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:03 AM
> > Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > Subject: Top posting
> >
> > When a post starts to contain more than one previous message or pane,
> top
> > posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom
> posting,
> > it's hard to find the most recent message.
> >
> > --Bob van Keuren
> > San Diego
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > [mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com]On Behalf Of $Bill
> > Luebkert
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:42 AM
> > To: Chris Cappelletti
> > Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > Subject: [lists] Re: (no subject)
> >
> >
> > Foo Ji-Haw wrote:
> > > I think the tricky part is that spaces may appear within the "..."
> field.
> > In
> > > which case the pattern may well be:
> > >
> >
> /^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\
> s+"(
> > >
> [^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"( [^"]+)"\s+$/
> )
> > >
> > > But I'm a rookie on regex, so this may not be optimal.
> >
> > You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
> posts.
> >
> > You can just adjust the split:
> >
> > foreach (@lines) {
> > my @flds =3D split /"\s+"|^"|"$/; # remove "s - column0 will now
> be
> > empty
> > if ($flds[6] eq 'pink' and $flds[8] eq 'blue') {
> > print "found one: $_\n";
> > }
> > }
> >
> > --
> > ,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert
> Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
> > (_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
> > / ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic
> > http://www.todbe.com/
> > -/-' /___/_<_ > stuff)
> > _______________________________________________
> > ActivePerl mailing list
> > ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ActivePerl mailing list
> > ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
>
> _______________________________________________
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
>

------=_Part_7079_2780457.1128436968160
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The problem with top posting is that it makes for a tottally illogical
order of messages.  Rather than reading from top to bottom (as we
are taught from an early age) you end up reading from bottom to
top. 



Lou

RE: Top posting

[Top-posting adjusted]

R. S. van Keuren wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
> [mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com]On Behalf Of
> $Bill Luebkert
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:42 AM
> To: Chris Cappelletti
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: [lists] Re: (no subject)
>
> You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
> posts.
>
> top posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom
> posting, it's hard to find the most recent message.
>
> --Bob van Keuren
> San Diego

I disagree (IMNSHO). You will note that I have deleted irrelevant
material from quoted messages. I think that this is a lot easier to
follow that if I had just top-posted a comment on top of your message.

HTH

--
Brian Raven



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RE: Top posting

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fo my $0.02 worth.. whoever starts the post should be able to determine the
posting...

you could have:
top
bottom
sideways
diagonal
small letters
all caps...


in san fran, i think sideways/bottom posting works well....

keep laughing!!!



-----Original Message-----
From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
[mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com]On Behalf Of Hicks,
Bob
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 6:33 AM
To: R. S. van Keuren
Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
Subject: RE: Top posting


That is just a preference and most of usenet does not follow it.

A: Yes, it is.
Q: Is top posting bad?

YMMV

Robert

> -----Original Message-----
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com [mailto:activeperl-
> bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com] On Behalf Of R. S. van Keuren
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:03 AM
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: Top posting
>
> When a post starts to contain more than one previous message or pane,
top
> posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom
posting,
> it's hard to find the most recent message.
>
> --Bob van Keuren
> San Diego
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
> [mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com]On Behalf Of $Bill
> Luebkert
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:42 AM
> To: Chris Cappelletti
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: [lists] Re: (no subject)
>
>
> Foo Ji-Haw wrote:
> > I think the tricky part is that spaces may appear within the "..."
field.
> In
> > which case the pattern may well be:
> >
>
/^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\
s+"(
> >
[^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"( [^"]+)"\s+$/
)
> >
> > But I'm a rookie on regex, so this may not be optimal.
>
> You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
posts.
>
> You can just adjust the split:
>
> foreach (@lines) {
> my @flds = split /"\s+"|^"|"$/; # remove "s - column0 will now
be
> empty
> if ($flds[6] eq 'pink' and $flds[8] eq 'blue') {
> print "found one: $_\n";
> }
> }
>
> --
> ,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert
Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
> (_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
> / ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic
> http://www.todbe.com/
> -/-' /___/_<_ stuff)
> _______________________________________________
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs

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Re: Top posting

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On 10/4/05, Mark Knoop wrote:
>
> I agree. I thought $Bill's post from the (no subject) thread...
>
> > You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
> posts.
>
> ... was ...
>
> 1) incorrect - as top posting is much easier to follow


Top-posting is easier for lazy people to write. It's sometimes easier to
follow when the writer completely forgoes trimming the quoted text.

2) ambiguous - do you mean 'don't top post and DON'T trim prior posts' or
> 'don't top post and DO trim prior posts'? (free from sin, casting stones
> etc)


Ambiguous to the casual observer, who doesn't give a rat's whiskers about
convention anyway. Given his audience, I guess he *should* have been
clearer.

3) unpleasant - $Bill, who are you to make snydey remarks like that anyhow?
>

Only one of the most helpful people around here. Those desiring aid would b=
e
well-advised to make their posts easy to read for those most likely to
provide a useful answers.

--
pDale Campbell

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 10/4/05, Mark Knoop < lto:mark@inetplc.com">mark@inetplc.com> wrote:

RE: Top posting

> For what it's worth, e-mail programs like MS Outlook make it
> difficult to *not* top-post.
Actually MS Outlook only really has a problem with this if the
*original* posting was in HTML or RTF. This message of yours was in
plain text and I'm having no problem not top-posting my reply to it,
using MS Outlook 2003.





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RE: Top posting

>
> > 1) incorrect - as top posting is much easier to follow
>
> While I agree that top posting is easier to follow, how does that make his
> statement incorrect? He was stating a request, not a fact. The fact is the
> help on active state for this mailing list says to bottom post :
> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/help#4 .

Fair play. Doing like this and copying relevant bits but still leaving the
history in tact is best of both worlds.

>
>
> > 2) ambiguous - do you mean 'don't top post and DON'T trim prior
> posts' or
> > 'don't top post and DO trim prior posts'? (free from sin, casting stones
> > etc)
>
> Now who's being picky? Let's not flame please. Mostly common sense would
> tell you that people don't want to read all the garbage from
> previous posts,
> and that trimming is the right thing to do but I digress.

Not being picky and not flaming was kinda my point.

>
> > 3) unpleasant - $Bill, who are you to make snydey remarks like that
> > anyhow?
>
> I'll tell you who he is. One of the few people I recognize from being on
> this list for 4 years. He has the ability to respond to difficult
> questions,
> and is generally well spoken, clear, concise and extremely helpful. So
> before you go barking at dragons how about your dry behind your ears? How
> long have you been on this list?
>
> -Wayne
>

Was just standing up for the little guy. Yeah I'm new to this list but it
annoys me when old hands give new people a hard time and thought that it
wouldn't be so bad to balance things out. But you are right its usually best
to not aggravate the problem. My bad :)

Mark


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne Simmons [mailto:wsimmons@unicircuit.com]
> Sent: 04 October 2005 15:39
> To: 'mark@inetplc.com'; activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: RE: Top posting
>
>
> > 1) incorrect - as top posting is much easier to follow
>
> While I agree that top posting is easier to follow, how does that make his
> statement incorrect? He was stating a request, not a fact. The fact is the
> help on active state for this mailing list says to bottom post :
> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/help#4 .
>
>
> > 2) ambiguous - do you mean 'don't top post and DON'T trim prior
> posts' or
> > 'don't top post and DO trim prior posts'? (free from sin, casting stones
> > etc)
>
> Now who's being picky? Let's not flame please. Mostly common sense would
> tell you that people don't want to read all the garbage from
> previous posts,
> and that trimming is the right thing to do but I digress.
>
> > 3) unpleasant - $Bill, who are you to make snydey remarks like that
> > anyhow?
>
> I'll tell you who he is. One of the few people I recognize from being on
> this list for 4 years. He has the ability to respond to difficult
> questions,
> and is generally well spoken, clear, concise and extremely helpful. So
> before you go barking at dragons how about your dry behind your ears? How
> long have you been on this list?
>
> -Wayne
>
>
> CAM Automation Programmer
> Unicircuit Inc.
> Littleton, Colorado
> 303-738-5390
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark Knoop [mailto:mark@inetplc.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 7:54 AM
> > To: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > Subject: RE: Top posting
> >
> > I agree. I thought $Bill's post from the (no subject) thread...
> >
> > > You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
> > posts.
> >
> > ... was ...
> >
> > 1) incorrect - as top posting is much easier to follow
> > 2) ambiguous - do you mean 'don't top post and DON'T trim prior
> posts' or
> > 'don't top post and DO trim prior posts'? (free from sin, casting stones
> > etc)
> > 3) unpleasant - $Bill, who are you to make snydey remarks like that
> > anyhow?
> >
> > Mark
> >
>
>
>


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Re: Top posting

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On 10/4/05, Hicks, Bob wrote:
>
> That is absolutely true...
>
> Robert
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rward@surveycrafter.com [mailto:rward@surveycrafter.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 10:23 AM
> > To: Hicks, Bob; 'R. S. van Keuren'
> > Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > Subject: RE: Top posting
> >
> > For what it's worth, e-mail programs like MS Outlook make it difficult
> to
> > *not* top-post. [...]
>

Your software seems to handle it okay.

One more reason for Mr. Gates to rest on the end of the devil's pitchfork.

--
pDale Campbell
"The internet...can bring out the mean, nasty, snippy
and trivial in otherwise very nice people."
-- Steve Hockensmith, editor of Cinescape

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On 10/4/05, Hicks, Bob < lto:Bob.L.Hicks@uscg.mil">Bob.L.Hicks@uscg.mil> wrote:

Re: Top posting

$Bill Luebkert wrote:
> R. S. van Keuren wrote:
>
>>When a post starts to contain more than one previous message or pane, top
>>posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom posting,
>>it's hard to find the most recent message.
>
>
> Bull. If you properly trim and intersperse your replies, you have the best
> possible result. Look at all the crap you left in your post. We don't
> need a flame war here - at one point in time it was stated in the FAQ how
> to properly reply to a post. Just becuase you're lazy, don't make that an
> excuse to give up on proper etiquette.
>

Back in the day -- my day, anyway (the early 1970s) -- a lack of proper
etiquette in the classroom, which is really what this mailing list is,
would earn you a barehanded slap on the behind if not a whack with a
stout wooden yardstick.

I myself was treated to a bit of humiliation in front of the classroom
for not obeying the teacher's instructions. I was angry at the time, but
with perspective I know I needed to be brought firmly under the
teacher's thumb. I never did it again.

Look at how we stand now as a society. This is where the absence of
etiquette and the lack of appropriate obedience has gotten us. Nowhere.

-- Craig


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Virus Database (VPS): 0540-0, 10/04/2005
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RE: Top posting

Am I the only one that finds these sentences incongruous:

$Bill Luebkert:
a) We don't need a flame war here...
vs.
b) Look at all the crap you left in your post.
c) Just becuase you're lazy, don't make that an
excuse to give up on proper etiquette.

I also think that this is a personal decision that is not absolute, and hate
to see this conversation started for the umpteenth hundred time. If you
like top posting or your email app is not geared or whatever your reason,
then top post. If you like inline, then do so inline. Bottom posting? Go
for it. Personally, I think that sometimes top posting is best when the
context permits it, but inline is often necessary.

Personally, I hate ASCII art, overly verbose signatures and legal
disclaimers on developer forums, but I'm not going to say that the rule /
etiquette / status quo / intelligent thing to do is to eliminate it, even
though it seems self-evident to me (and sometimes you can't change it).

And top posting seemed the most appropriate place for this message so you
don't have to wade through crap when the context is completely discernable
from this message.

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: $Bill Luebkert [mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:15 AM
To: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
Subject: Re: Top posting

R. S. van Keuren wrote:
> When a post starts to contain more than one previous message or pane, top
> posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom posting,
> it's hard to find the most recent message.

Bull. If you properly trim and intersperse your replies, you have the best
possible result. Look at all the crap you left in your post. We don't
need a flame war here - at one point in time it was stated in the FAQ how
to properly reply to a post. Just becuase you're lazy, don't make that an
excuse to give up on proper etiquette.

--
,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
(_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
/ ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic
http://www.todbe.com/
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Re: Top posting

Hicks, Bob wrote:
> That is just a preference and most of usenet does not follow it.
>
> A: Yes, it is.
> Q: Is top posting bad?

You just posted a post with 2339 unnecessary characters in it.
That's even worse than the fact that you top-posted.

--
,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
(_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
/ ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic http://www.todbe.com/
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Re: Top posting

Mark Knoop wrote:
> I agree. I thought $Bill's post from the (no subject) thread...

You agree to what ? Because you didn't put your stmt under the orig
poster's stmt, no one can figure out what you are referring to. And
not only that, you posted it to a completely different thread. LOL.

>> You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
> posts.
>
> ... was ...
>
> 1) incorrect - as top posting is much easier to follow

You just proved that wrong.

> 2) ambiguous - do you mean 'don't top post and DON'T trim prior posts' or
> 'don't top post and DO trim prior posts'? (free from sin, casting stones
> etc)

Not sure which stmt you are referring to, but the latter is correct and
you knew that before you asked if your IQ is over 75.

> 3) unpleasant - $Bill, who are you to make snydey remarks like that anyhow?

snydey isn't in my dictionary - if you think my simple etiquette correcting
post was unpleasant, you haven't been on the Internet long. As far as who
I am, you can easily go through the AS archives and find thousands of posts
that should give you some idea - how many of yours will I find ?

Why do you refuse to follow proper etiquette - are you an anarchist ?
Do you not care about other people and what they have to endure because of
you and others like you ?

I'm really tired of you junior posters from the Micro$oft 'me' generation.
Get some class and act like a constructive member of the Internet society
by following proper rules of etiquette.

And you left 2185 superfluous characters on the end of your post for
someone else to trim off since you are so self absorbed in your own
ideas of what constitutes a proper post, you don't think of others.

If this were a moderated list, I'd toss you since you only contribute
by increasing the bandwidth.

--
,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
(_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
/ ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic http://www.todbe.com/
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Re: Top posting

Richard Z. Ward wrote:
> For what it's worth, e-mail programs like MS Outlook make it difficult to
> *not* top-post.
>
> For example, if one changes MS Outlook 2003's default setting to have the >
> character in front of each line of the original e-mail message, MS Outlook
> immediately displays a message warning that the setting will cause problems
> with spell-checking.
>
> Using MS Outlook to post a message in the more acceptable manner can take a
> significant amount of time, searching for and then changing MS Outlook's
> default settings or manually reformatting the message.

Bull shit - others are doing it, but you're unable or too lazy to join
the well behaved ? You just left 2899 characters for us to deal with
too.

If you don't like or can't figure out how to use Outlook, get your hands
on a real email client.

--
,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
(_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
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Re: Top posting

Hicks, Bob wrote:
> That is absolutely true...

What is ?

3824 more characters of garbage on your lazy post. You have a mouse
don't you ? Highlight the garbage and hit delete.

--
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(_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
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RE: Top posting

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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But since I've already read all the other posts anyways, I can cut to
the chase easily and read the new information (conveniently located at
the top of the message) without having to sort through everything I've
already seen anyway.
=20
=20
________________________________

From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
[mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com] On Behalf Of Lou
Losee
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:43 AM
To: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
Subject: Re: Top posting


The problem with top posting is that it makes for a tottally illogical
order of messages. Rather than reading from top to bottom (as we are
taught from an early age) you end up reading from bottom to top. =20

Lou


On 10/4/05, Hicks, Bob wrote:=20

That is just a preference and most of usenet does not follow it.
=09
A: Yes, it is.
Q: Is top posting bad?
=09
YMMV
=09
Robert
=09
> -----Original Message-----
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
[mailto:activeperl-
> bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com] On Behalf Of R. S. van
Keuren=20
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:03 AM
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: Top posting
>
> When a post starts to contain more than one previous message
or pane,=20
top
> posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With
bottom
posting,
> it's hard to find the most recent message.
>
> --Bob van Keuren
> San Diego
>
>
> -----Original Message-----=20
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
> [mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com ]On Behalf
Of $Bill
> Luebkert
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:42 AM
> To: Chris Cappelletti
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com=20
> Subject: [lists] Re: (no subject)
>
>
> Foo Ji-Haw wrote:
> > I think the tricky part is that spaces may appear within the
"..."
field.
> In
> > which case the pattern may well be:=20
> >
>
=09
/^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\
s+"(
> >
=09
[^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"( [^"]+)"\s+$/

)
> >
> > But I'm a rookie on regex, so this may not be optimal.
>
> You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim
the prior
posts.
>
> You can just adjust the split:=20
>
> foreach (@lines) {
> my @flds =3D split /"\s+"|^"|"$/; # remove "s - column0
will now
be
> empty
> if ($flds[6] eq 'pink' and $flds[8] eq 'blue') {
> print "found one: $_\n";
> }
> }
>
> --
> ,-/- __ _ _ $Bill Luebkert
Mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net
> (_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles
Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
> / ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic
> http://www.todbe.com/
> -/-' /___/_<_ Perl/Lakers
stuff)
> _______________________________________________
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________=20
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
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=09
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=09



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charset=3Dus-ascii">

RE: Top posting

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Ok... this is getting really messy! Top posting means that the order of
posts being added remains clear and that the most recent addition is that
the top - useful is the post is being followed. I have Outlook set up to add
> to previous messages which works fine if everyone posts plain text
messages (surely breaking this rule is a much mroe heinous crime?) and uses
the same policy.
Out of interest I will also post this comment in the relevant (non-top-post)
place in the interests of science.
If this is not the way to do it then that's fine and yes people should be
told. However top posters are not necessarily lazy - I have never come
accross this being an issue before and did not see it buried in the small
print on the active perl site - so should not be villified in such a manner.
-----Original Message-----
From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
[mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com]On Behalf Of Lou Losee
Sent: 04 October 2005 15:43
To: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
Subject: Re: Top posting


The problem with top posting is that it makes for a tottally illogical
order of messages. Rather than reading from top to bottom (as we are taught
from an early age) you end up reading from bottom to top.

Lou
Ok... this is getting really messy! Top posting means that the order of
posts being added remains clear and that the most recent addition is that
the top - useful is the post is being followed. I have Outlook set up to add
> to previous messages which works fine if everyone posts plain text
messages (surely breaking this rule is a much mroe heinous crime?) and uses
the same policy.
This was the comment added in place nect to the comment it was replying
to - though that comment was top posted which kinda confuses matters :|
If this is the way to do it then that's fine and yes people should be
told. However top posters are not necessarily lazy - I have never come
accross this being an issue before and did not see it buried in the small
print on the active perl site - so should not be villified in such a manner.
On 10/4/05, Hicks, Bob wrote:
That is just a preference and most of usenet does not follow it.

A: Yes, it is.
Q: Is top posting bad?

YMMV

Robert

>
> When a post starts to contain more than one previous message or pane,
top
> posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom
posting,
> it's hard to find the most recent message.
>
> --Bob van Keuren
> San Diego
>
>

>
>
> Foo Ji-Haw wrote:
> > I think the tricky part is that spaces may appear within the "..."
field.
> In
> > which case the pattern may well be:
> >
>
/^"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\ s+"([^"]+)"\
s+"(
> >
[^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"([^"]+)"\s+"( [^"]+)"\s+$/
)
> >
> > But I'm a rookie on regex, so this may not be optimal.
>
> You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
posts.
>
> You can just adjust the split:
>
> foreach (@lines) {
> my @flds = split /"\s+"|^"|"$/; # remove "s - column0 will now
be
> empty
> if ($flds[6] eq 'pink' and $flds[8] eq 'blue') {
> print "found one: $_\n";
> }
> }
>
> --

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RE: Top posting

Brian Raven wrote:

>
> [Top-posting adjusted]
>
> R. S. van Keuren wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > [mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com]On Behalf Of
> > $Bill Luebkert
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:42 AM
> > To: Chris Cappelletti
> > Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> > Subject: [lists] Re: (no subject)
> >
> > You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
> > posts.
> >
> > top posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom
> > posting, it's hard to find the most recent message.
> >
> > --Bob van Keuren
> > San Diego
>
> I disagree (IMNSHO). You will note that I have deleted irrelevant
> material from quoted messages. I think that this is a lot easier to
> follow that if I had just top-posted a comment on top of your message.
>
> HTH
>
> --
> Brian Raven
>
>

On the contrary - in the above we have totally lost track of who said what.
If the whole history was there in tact, in reverse order, I wouldn't have
had to trail back through to see that it was $Bill who said:
> > You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
> > posts.
and Bob van Keuren who said
> > top posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom
> > posting, it's hard to find the most recent message.

which have no distinction made between them above.

Mark


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RE: Top posting

> -----Original Message-----
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com [mailto:activeperl-
> bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com] On Behalf Of $Bill Luebkert

> > A: Yes, it is.
> > Q: Is top posting bad?
>
> You just posted a post with 2339 unnecessary characters in it.
> That's even worse than the fact that you top-posted.
>


I was trying to make a point and badly at that.

Robert

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RE: Top posting

How many unnecessary characters are in your signature?

- Chris
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Re: Top posting

Chris Snyder wrote:
> How many unnecessary characters are in your signature?

None unless you leave them on when you reply to it. And even if you
don't like it's length (it's my normal business .sig) it's a lot less
than the 2-3000 that you guys are leaving on there and it's only 300
total anyway.

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Re: Top posting

--===============0300675891==
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On 10/4/05, Ken Cornetet wrote:
>
> But since I've already read all the other posts anyways, I can cut to the
> chase easily and read the new information (conveniently located at the to=
p
> of the message) without having to sort through everything I've already se=
en
> anyway.
>

But how will others know what you are responding to in particular?

I've also noticed that top-posting and leaving totally-worthless quoted tex=
t
below go hand-in-hand. If you don't expect others to need to read what's
below your words, why include it? Don't answer, we know why.

--
pDale Campbell
"...Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare."
-- Blair Houghton (1993?)

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On 10/4/05, Ken Cornetet < ailto:Ken.Cornetet@kimball.com">Ken.Cornetet@kimball.com> wrote: >

=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">

f">But=20
since I've already read all the other posts anyways, I can cut to the chase=
=20
easily and read the new information (conveniently located at the top o=
f the=20
message) without having to sort through everything I've already seen=20
anyway.
" size=3D"2">

RE: Top posting

It would be a lot easier to read if you didn't have that giant disclaimer
(roughly 4 times the length of what you typed) under your response. Now your
message is buried between two large sections of text that isn't your
response. I realize of course, you didn't personally add the disclaimer, but
it is there.

I noticed, while quickly scanning your email, that your message doesn't
completely stand out. I quite expect reading this email though you didn't
have to hunt for my response.

I have generally found that when I was back in the 80's on the MERIT network
on a paper terminal or slow VDT, it was much better to bottom post. As we
advanced and started using better and better clients, top-posting or
inlining (though I tend to dislike that as well) became the better option.
Especially with clients that provide a view on the message that doesn't
require actually opening the message to see it.

In the end, it is all personal choice. It is a stupid thing to argue over.
If the worst someone can come up with to complain about is top or bottom
posting, they are doing pretty well and should just find something else to
worry about.

joe


-----Original Message-----
From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
[mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Raven
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 10:47 AM
To: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
Subject: RE: Top posting

[Top-posting adjusted]

R. S. van Keuren wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
> [mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com]On Behalf Of $Bill
> Luebkert
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:42 AM
> To: Chris Cappelletti
> Cc: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: [lists] Re: (no subject)
>
> You're a rookie on posting. Please don't top-post and trim the prior
> posts.
>
> top posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom
> posting, it's hard to find the most recent message.
>
> --Bob van Keuren
> San Diego

I disagree (IMNSHO). You will note that I have deleted irrelevant material
from quoted messages. I think that this is a lot easier to follow that if I
had just top-posted a comment on top of your message.

HTH

--
Brian Raven



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Re: Top posting

Wayne Simmons wrote:
>> 1) incorrect - as top posting is much easier to follow
>
> While I agree that top posting is easier to follow,

That's ridiculous. Notice that you lost the quoting for the original
poster who I guess should have been Mark. Don't you think attribution
is at all important ? How can there be any logical flow to a conversation
when you can't figure out who said what without saving all the messages
and going back through them to figure out what's going on ? Doesn't
the response directly below the sentence you're responding to make things
totally clear rather than trying to figure out what you are responding to
with your top-post ? Doesn't your lack of trimming increase bandwidth
for all those people still on dialup ?

> how does that make his
> statement incorrect? He was stating a request, not a fact. The fact is the
> help on active state for this mailing list says to bottom post :
> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/help#4 .

As he top-posts and doesn't trim yet again. :)

You're supporting my post and disregarding it at the same time - try
helping someone else. ;)

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Re: Top posting

If this thread doesn't stop PDQ I will unsubscribe from the
activeperl mailing list. The activeperl mailing list is too
wide of a forum for such sophomorism. Please take it
to your local perl mongers chapter, where it belongs.

Call me what you will, but so's your mother.

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RE: Top posting

> -----Original Message-----
> From: davidnicol@gmail.com [mailto:davidnicol@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:35 PM
> To: Hicks, Bob
> Cc: $Bill Luebkert; activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> Subject: Re: Top posting
>
> If this thread doesn't stop PDQ I will unsubscribe from the
> activeperl mailing list. The activeperl mailing list is too
> wide of a forum for such sophomorism. Please take it
> to your local perl mongers chapter, where it belongs.
>
> Call me what you will, but so's your mother.

I am just wondering why you sent that to me? I wasn't calling anyone
anything.

Robert

P.S. I agree it should stop...

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Re: Top posting

Chris Snyder wrote:
> Am I the only one that finds these sentences incongruous:
>
> $Bill Luebkert:
> a) We don't need a flame war here...
> vs.
> b) Look at all the crap you left in your post.
> c) Just becuase you're lazy, don't make that an
> excuse to give up on proper etiquette.

How so ? The list FAQs ask for interspersed replies. People aren't
conforming, so when they start to argue about it they're the ones
starting the flame war. People conforming to the FAQ are only asking
for a little decency from the other/new/junior/beginner/neophyte
(possibly ignorant) posters by following suit.

> I also think that this is a personal decision that is not absolute, and hate
> to see this conversation started for the umpteenth hundred time. If you
> like top posting or your email app is not geared or whatever your reason,
> then top post. If you like inline, then do so inline. Bottom posting? Go
> for it. Personally, I think that sometimes top posting is best when the
> context permits it, but inline is often necessary.

I suppose I could just stop helping all the top-posters and just help the
proper posters who would obviously be more appreciative of the help since
they're already proving they're more considerate. Maybe we come up with
two lists - one for top-posters/non-trimmers and another for
intersperser/trimmers - I wonder which would be more successful.

> Personally, I hate ASCII art, overly verbose signatures and legal
> disclaimers on developer forums, but I'm not going to say that the rule /
> etiquette / status quo / intelligent thing to do is to eliminate it, even
> though it seems self-evident to me (and sometimes you can't change it).

I'm especially un-fond of those legal disclaimers, but if your .sig is 4 lines
or less, you're usually fine by me.

> And top posting seemed the most appropriate place for this message so you
> don't have to wade through crap when the context is completely discernable
> from this message.

I have no problem with top-posting if you're going to remove the ENTIRE
message your responding to instead of leaving 2-3K of garbage there.

Of course that implies that your post stands alone and doesn't need any
part of the prior post for context and you basically have a brand new post
on the same subject.

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Re: Top posting

David Nicol wrote:
> If this thread doesn't stop PDQ I will unsubscribe from the
> activeperl mailing list.

That's supposed to bother us ? :)
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OT - Top posting

Ken Cornetet wrote:
> But since I've already read all the other posts anyways, I can cut to
> the chase easily and read the new information (conveniently located at
> the top of the message) without having to sort through everything I've
> already seen anyway.

Another poor argument. If the rest of the post had been properly trimmed
90% of the time all of the remaining orig post and your response would be
on the first page - thus no need to sort through anything no longer
pertinent - it would all be in plain sight. If not all in plain sight,
that would mean there is sufficient content that proper quoting and
interspersed replies would make everything more readable.

Not to mention we're supposed to be posting in plain text here.
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Re: Top posting

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On 10/4/05, Chris Snyder wrote:
>
> How many unnecessary characters are in your signature?
>

His signature is followed by the proper signature block flag, a line with
only "dash dash space". This means that any decent email client will delete
that entire block of text automatically when you reply to him or forward it=
..
The same cannot be said of quoted text that follows a top-post. And his sig
is within common-law limits. :)

--
pDale
"...is there no escape
from the words
that plague us so?" - Sarah McLachlan

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On 10/4/05, Chris Snyder < ailto:perl@thesnyderhome.com">perl@thesnyderhome.com> wrote:

RE: Top posting

> Top posting means that the order of posts being added remains clear and
that the most recent addition is that the top - useful is the post is
being followed. I have Outlook set up to add > to previous messages which
works fine if everyone posts plain text messages (surely breaking this
rule is a much mroe heinous crime?) and uses the same policy.

Right - Bill is a cranky so-and-so but he's really good and helpful. He
just has very, very strong opinions. The point is that there is a lot of a
lot of junk left over in unedited msgs and 'flow' that is, in a time
sense, while in the eye of the beholder, is going to be apparent in a top
to bottom setup. See the question, see the response see the response to
the response.

Top or bottom, use the mouse and delete everything that's not relevant. I
usually do a bare Reply (No History - we've got Notes, which is as
bad/worse than LookOut (except for that attachment ;-) and then cutnpaste
the appropriate sections into my blank msg. Oh, heavens yes, takes all of
4 seconds - and, usually, I try to the read the whole dang thing to be
sure its vaguely coherent.

> However top posters are not necessarily lazy - I have never come accross
this being an issue before and did not see it buried in the small print on
the active perl site - so should not be villified in such a manner.

And I mean no offense, but you've not been around to too many places,
email list-wise. This is a painfully hot topic (akin to best editor, er
best language (safe here on that but ...) etc.) and we all need to get on
w/ the perl stuff and just drop the rest of it. Have a little concern for
your fellow readers and cut out the junk that's no longer germane to your
reply. If you must top post - well, most of us will get over it, but
you'll be a much better netizen if you'll use your mouse to clear out
what's no longer part of the topic. We all can go back and follow the
thread, so just keep what you're talking about.

a

Andy Bach, Sys. Mangler
Internet: andy_bach@wiwb.uscourts.gov
VOICE: (608) 261-5738 FAX 264-5932

" History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of
social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the
appalling silence of the good people. "
Martin Luther King, Jr.
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RE: Top posting

So, to summarize:

If you top-post, you lack etiquette, you are lazy, you have an IQ under 75,
you are selfish, a conformist member of the Bill Gates Society, obviously a
"junior programmer" and a frivolous bandwidth waster with those extra bytes.

However, if you have an ASCII art signature that went out with denim leisure
suits and have thousands of self-aggrandizing posts, you get to play
dictator and admonish others for not conforming to something so trivial as
how to format these posts.

You wouldn't happen to have been the inspiration for the comic book store
owner in The Simpsons, would you?

-----
$Bill Luebkert [mailto:dbecoll@adelphia.net] wrote:

....

You agree to what ? Because you didn't put your stmt under the orig
poster's stmt, no one can figure out what you are referring to. And
not only that, you posted it to a completely different thread. LOL.

....

You just proved that wrong.

....

Not sure which stmt you are referring to, but the latter is correct and
you knew that before you asked if your IQ is over 75.

....

snydey isn't in my dictionary - if you think my simple etiquette correcting
post was unpleasant, you haven't been on the Internet long. As far as who
I am, you can easily go through the AS archives and find thousands of posts
that should give you some idea - how many of yours will I find ?

Why do you refuse to follow proper etiquette - are you an anarchist ?
Do you not care about other people and what they have to endure because of
you and others like you ?

I'm really tired of you junior posters from the Micro$oft 'me' generation.
Get some class and act like a constructive member of the Internet society
by following proper rules of etiquette.

And you left 2185 superfluous characters on the end of your post for
someone else to trim off since you are so self absorbed in your own
ideas of what constitutes a proper post, you don't think of others.

If this were a moderated list, I'd toss you since you only contribute
by increasing the bandwidth.

--
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(_/ / ) // // DBE Collectibles Mailto:dbe@todbe.com
/ ) /--< o // // Castle of Medieval Myth & Magic
http://www.todbe.com/
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Re: Top posting

Chris Snyder wrote:
> So, to summarize:
>
> If you top-post, you lack etiquette, you are lazy, you have an IQ under 75,
> you are selfish, a conformist member of the Bill Gates Society, obviously a
> "junior programmer" and a frivolous bandwidth waster with those extra bytes.

One or more of the above would be true IMO.


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Re: Top posting

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On 10/4/05, joe wrote:

In the end, it is all [top vs. bottom-posting] personal choice.


Actually, no. http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/help#4

It is a stupid thing to argue over.


Actually, yes. (see above)

--
pDale Campbell
For S/N, when S=3D0, N is irrelevant.

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On 10/4/05, joe < tmail@joeware.net">listmail@joeware.net> wrote:

RE: Top posting

joe wrote:
> It would be a lot easier to read if you didn't have that giant
> disclaimer (roughly 4 times the length of what you typed) under your
> response. Now your message is buried between two large sections of
> text that isn't your response. I realize of course, you didn't
> personally add the disclaimer, but it is there.

I agree, but as you realise, there is nothing I can do about it.
However, any half decent email client would have no problem trimming a
properly constucted signature, and everything after it.

>
> I noticed, while quickly scanning your email, that your message
> doesn't completely stand out. I quite expect reading this email
> though you didn't have to hunt for my response.

But you made it difficult to read your response in context with what you
are responding to.

HTH

--
Brian Raven



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=================================
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If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. The views expressed in this message do not necessarily reflect those of Atos Euronext Market Solutions.

L'information contenue dans cet e-mail est confidentielle et uniquement destinee a la (aux) personnes a laquelle (auxquelle(s)) elle est adressee. Toute copie, publication ou diffusion de cet email est interdite. Si cet e-mail vous parvient par erreur, nous vous prions de bien vouloir prevenir l'expediteur immediatement et d'effacer le e-mail et annexes jointes de votre systeme. Le contenu de ce message electronique ne represente pas necessairement la position ou le point de vue d'Atos Euronext Market Solutions.


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Re: Top posting

David Nicol wrote:
> If this thread doesn't stop PDQ I will unsubscribe from the
> activeperl mailing list. The activeperl mailing list is too
> wide of a forum for such sophomorism. Please take it
> to your local perl mongers chapter, where it belongs.

You're threatening to unsubscribe? That's like someone threatening a
hunger strike. They'll lose in the end.

Provided it still means "Pretty Darn Quick," I haven't heard "PDQ" since
elementary school. Wow. Don't know about the rest of you, but this
thread has been highly entertaining. The chuckling you've been hearing
is from me.

I adhere to the rules because of the benefits I receive here. I learn a
great deal simply by reading Bill's responses, even if the questions
don't pertain to me. He's a freaking gold mine of knowledge and perspective.

I wouldn't stoop to calling anyone names. That would merely lower me to
their level.

-- Craig


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Re: Top posting

Sorry, but top bottom posting is bad etiquette because it is not prefered by
most users.

Most users are using Windows, and probably most users of this list are using
Windows also.
Outlook and Outlook Express are the most used desktop email clients and they
force the users to top post.

I am blind and it is very annoying to need to jump over the old messages in
order to read just a few bytes.

I usually bottom post when I see a thread which uses bottom posting,
because I assume that most users that follow that thread like to bottom
post, and I am just one while they are more, so it is nice to make as the
most users like.

Unfortunately, when I follow a thread which uses the top-posting style, I
forget sometimes to cut the last part of the message, because I don't
remember if I use top posting or bottom posting.
(I cannot see if there is a big text below my message, just a few lines, or
nothing).

The conclusion is that there are different preferences in choosing the
posting style, and there is no "etiquette". I think the etiquette should say
something that we should try to accept what other people prefer because
fortunately... we are all different.

Teddy


Teddy


----- Original Message -----
From: "$Bill Luebkert"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 16:14 PM
Subject: Re: Top posting


> R. S. van Keuren wrote:
> > When a post starts to contain more than one previous message or pane,
top
> > posting is much easier to follow than bottom posting. With bottom
posting,
> > it's hard to find the most recent message.
>
> Bull. If you properly trim and intersperse your replies, you have the
best
> possible result. Look at all the crap you left in your post. We don't

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Re: Top posting

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--===============1420947078==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="------------020302060601050308010201"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------020302060601050308010201
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Richard Z. Ward wrote:

>For what it's worth, e-mail programs like MS Outlook make it difficult to
>*not* top-post. [...]
>
Hmm....how to make this thread relevant to the list and less combative
and maybe make some folks chuckle...how about a contest to post the
shortest-yet-still-readable Perl script that:

1. shows excellent style (uses strict, appropriate CPAN modules, and is
nicely PODed)
2. implements an SMTP and/or POP3 and/or IMAP server/proxy (depending on
where you'd like to plug it in)
3. re-writes any messages destined for a configurable list of mailing
lists to be not-top-posted and trimmed of any included posts beyond a
configurable generation

Extra points if it runs on Win32, Mac, Linux, and UNIX without modification.

The winner gets to be flame-proofed-for-life. :-)

Seriously, let's all agree to re-read the ActiveState mailing list FAQ:

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/help

$Bill is right. Quoting the preceding:

*How do I reply to a message?*

In general, reply only to the group OR only to the poster, not to
both. Otherwise the poster will receive the same message twice. If
you would like to receive a personal reply, say so in your post,
ideally at the end (signature files are a good way).

Please check *whom* you are replying to! Make sure the list itself
is not specified twice, and determine if users should be cc'd, when
they'll see your reply via the list anyway.

Add your reply text below the relevant portions of the original
text. Don't quote things like signature files, and don't quote the
entire message if you are replying to a small section only.

So let's bottom-post or ask ActiveState to loosen their recommendation.

Cheers,
Richard

--
-- Richard A. Wells, raw@raw.com
-- Reality And Wonder, http://www.raw.com/



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Richard Z. Ward wrote:
cite="mid200510041425.j94EPZfQ008977@mail730.megamailservers .com"
type="cite">

For what it's worth, e-mail programs like MS Outlook make it difficult to

*not* top-post. [...]

How do I reply to a message?

In general, reply only to the group OR only to the poster, not to both.
Otherwise the poster will receive the same message twice. If you would
like
to receive a personal reply, say so in your post, ideally at the end
(signature files are a good way).

Please check *whom* you are replying to! Make sure the list itself is
not
specified twice, and determine if users should be cc'd, when they'll
see
your reply via the list anyway.

Add your reply text below the relevant portions of the original text.
Don't
quote things like signature files, and don't quote the entire message
if you
are replying to a small section only.

-- 

-- Richard A. Wells, 

-- Reality And Wonder, 

Re: Top posting

from David Nichol...

> If this thread doesn't stop PDQ I will unsubscribe from the
> activeperl mailing list.

Please do us a favor. You're adding nothing to this user group. I can
remember where Bill helped me out several times and saved me a lot of time
so that I could move on with my project.

Mike Shelton


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Re: Top posting

can't we all just GET ALONG!? =)

Craig Cardimon wrote:

> David Nicol wrote:
>
>> If this thread doesn't stop PDQ I will unsubscribe from the
>> activeperl mailing list. The activeperl mailing list is too
>> wide of a forum for such sophomorism. Please take it
>> to your local perl mongers chapter, where it belongs.
>
>
> You're threatening to unsubscribe? That's like someone threatening a
> hunger strike. They'll lose in the end.
>
> Provided it still means "Pretty Darn Quick," I haven't heard "PDQ"
> since elementary school. Wow. Don't know about the rest of you, but
> this thread has been highly entertaining. The chuckling you've been
> hearing is from me.
>
> I adhere to the rules because of the benefits I receive here. I learn
> a great deal simply by reading Bill's responses, even if the questions
> don't pertain to me. He's a freaking gold mine of knowledge and
> perspective.
>
> I wouldn't stoop to calling anyone names. That would merely lower me
> to their level.
>
> -- Craig
>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 0540-0, 10/04/2005
> Tested on: 10/4/2005 2:59:03 PM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2004 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ActivePerl mailing list
> ActivePerl@listserv.ActiveState.com
> To unsubscribe: http://listserv.ActiveState.com/mailman/mysubs
>
>


--

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Re: Top posting

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On 10/4/05, Mike Shelton wrote:
>
> from David Nichol...
>
> > If this thread doesn't stop PDQ I will unsubscribe from the
> > activeperl mailing list.
>
> Please do us a favor. You're adding nothing to this user group. I can
> remember where Bill helped me out several times and saved me a lot of tim=
e
> so that I could move on with my project.
>

Please, let's remember what Winston Churchill said: "When you have to
killfile a man, it costs nothing to be polite."

--
pDale
"Two wrongs don't make a right...
It usually takes at least three or four."

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On 10/4/05, Mike Shelton < ailto:mshelton1@cinci.rr.com">mshelton1@cinci.rr.com> wrote:

Re: Top posting

Anthony R. Nemmer wrote:
> can't we all just GET ALONG!? =)

Where's the fun in that? As I was just saying over lunch to some of the
dev team here, there's nothing quite like a top-or-bottom post flame war
to make Tuesday go past that much faster. =)

cheers, JeffG

( aka the list admin who will unsubscribe *everyone* if the lists get
too boring. =)
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Re: Top posting

On Tuesday 04 October 2005 7:23 am, Richard Z. Ward wrote:
> For what it's worth, e-mail programs like MS Outlook make it difficult to
> *not* top-post.
>

An excellent reason to change to a better mail client. Outlook and OE
play by their own rules, it's not reasonable to expect the rest of the
world to adjust to them.

Scott

--
POPFile, the OpenSource EMail Classifier http://popfile.sourceforge.net/
Linux 2.6.11.4-21.9-default x86_64
SuSE Linux 9.3 (x86-64)
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Re: Top posting

Jeff Griffiths wrote:
>
> Where's the fun in that? As I was just saying over lunch to some of the
> dev team here, there's nothing quite like a top-or-bottom post flame war
> to make Tuesday go past that much faster. =)
>
> cheers, JeffG
>
> ( aka the list admin who will unsubscribe *everyone* if the lists get
> too boring. =)

One atta-boy for Jeff - lighten me day - watch a ripple turn to a wave. ;)

So what's the latest status on Perl 6 ?
How far off is a working AS distribution or are we still light years off ?
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RE: Top posting

From: Scott Leighton
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:10 PM

> An excellent reason to change to a better mail client. Outlook and
> OE play by their own rules, it's not reasonable to
> expect the rest of the world to adjust to them.

I see where you are coming from but which rest of the world are you
referring to? In every mail client poll or study I have seen over the last
several years, OE and Outlook combined with Hotmail which emulates those two
comprises >85% of the clients used. In large Fortune 50 and larger
businesses where I have had access to smtp headers[1] of all incoming
external messages (sans spam) that number is even higher often approaching
98%. Possibly someone who maintains all of the emails to this list could
scan through all unique senders and give the numbers for the list. Of course
that will only outline posters, not everyone that is on the list. I would do
it strictly from curiosity but in general I only save about 2 messages a
month from this list if any. I realize this isn't something that a lot of
people like, especially noisy people who feel the world should be fair, but
it isn't something I can bring myself to care about. I have run into too
many people in the world who whine that MS doesn't do something and then
whines when they do the opposite. MS is in the market for the forseeable
future and probably longer.



From: pDale
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 2:39 PM

>> In the end, it is all [top vs. bottom-posting] personal choice.

> Actually, no. http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/help#4

Actually yes. Those are guidelines, not rules. If they were rules, people
would get booted from the list for not following them. You, as a poster,
could help enforce those guidelines by not responding to the messages that
don't match your preferred posting format. I don't understand people who
tilt at top/bottom posting. If you don't like the format of the message you
are looking at, skip it. You aren't being graded on how many you respond to.
Personally if I asked for help and someone started whining about the format
of my post while responding I would rather they just ignore it. I respond to
emails whether they are top or bottom posted. If there is a chain of emails,
I much prefer the top posting with occasional inline posting with all text
of all of the messages. It allows me to toss out all of the messages except
the last in the chain.




And not in response to any specific post, but Bill certainly has an amazing
skill to count characters and post the results. Not quite sure I understand
that preoccupation but everyone has something. As an aside, I have never
seen someone so grumpy about helping people. As I mention above, if someone
doesn't post in your magic format, skip the post and go on to one that makes
you smile. Life is too short to whine about top/bottom posting and how many
characters there are in a post that has nothing to do with whatever it is
the post is supposed to have to do with. Personally I always found it
annoying that he has a $ in his display name but it doesn't annoy me to the
point where I have to write a special note just to point that out. I ignore
it because it really doesn't matter. If he has a good post, and he has had
some, I read it, if he is being whiney about something or trying to tell
someone they asked for help wrong, and he has had some, I ignore that.
Whether his post is on the top or the bottom or the middle doesn't matter.



joe

[1] I am a Senior Consultant for the Messaging Services division of a large
tech firm that manages the email systems for many large companies in the
Fortune 500 including a few in the Fortune 10.

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Re: Top posting

From: "pDale"
His signature is followed by the proper signature block flag, a line with
only "dash dash space". This means that any decent email client will delete
that entire block of text automatically when you reply to him or forward it.
The same cannot be said of quoted text that follows a top-post. And his sig
is within common-law limits. :)

Well, I think that this fight of top posting versus bottom posting should
move to another one which is "Why using MS Windows or MS email clients?",
because I think the most important reason for top posting is because some
email clients force us to do that.

By the way, I have found a little program (free) which runs in the
background and make Outlook Express bottom posting by default after hitting
"reply". I don't remember its name, but it was something like OE Fix or
something like that, but I don't like to use it because it puts its name in
the first line of the message.

Teddy

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Re: (no subject)

$Bill Luebkert wrote:
> Steve Dawson wrote:
>
>> On a 6MB test file, The regex ran in 2.48secs while my split ran in
>> 6.19secs. Here's the variations I tried and the timings...
>>
>> 1) My version of the split: *6.19s*
>> @columns = split /\"\s+\"/
>>
>
> This one is faster than below, but doesn't handle field 1 and n.
> You could also use something like: split /\s*("[^"]+")\s*/ untested.
> And toss every other field (even fields).
>
Yeah, saw what you were trying to do with the variant match. I was
figuring that for a 10GB file, it might be faster to get a rougher match
on the line and then reprocess the whole line . The match that collected
all of the fields cleanly ran 50% slower.

I see what you mean about field 1 and n. I would have got them but just
with an extra " at the start of field and at the end of field-n. I'll
take the speed over finesse defence on that.

I could also have grabbed the quotes on all the fields with: split
/(?<=")\s+(?=")/ that one runs in 6.4 secs.

Cheers

Steve

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RE: Top posting

> Most users are using Windows, and probably most users of this
> list are using
> Windows also.
> Outlook and Outlook Express are the most used desktop email
> clients and they
> force the users to top post.

Never forced me to, in 15 years.


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RE: Top posting

> because I think the most important reason for top posting is
> because some
> email clients force us to do that.

Name one.
The MS ones leave the cursor at the top. You don't have to start typing there - you're allowed to move it first. They leave it there in case there's something near the top you want to reply to. MS's own docs (if you hunt around long enough) say interleaved is the way to go.
OK, if the stuff you're replying to isn't plain text, you may not be able to write into the middle of it - but this is supposed to be a plaintext list, isn't it?


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Re: Top posting

Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> Well, I think that this fight of top posting versus bottom posting should
> move to another one which is "Why using MS Windows or MS email clients?",
> because I think the most important reason for top posting is because some
> email clients force us to do that.

I'm not sure if you said that or pDale who you were responding to, but the
real point is that OE may start you off at the top, but there's no reason
you have to stay there. Mozilla has the option of starting at top or bottom.
Mozilla will remove the previous .sig for you and properly quote the message
maintaining attribution.

> By the way, I have found a little program (free) which runs in the
> background and make Outlook Express bottom posting by default after hitting
> "reply". I don't remember its name, but it was something like OE Fix or
> something like that, but I don't like to use it because it puts its name in
> the first line of the message.

By the way Teddy - as far as I'm concerned you get an exemption, but you
seem more capable (even being blind) to do a proper post when you want to
than most of our seeing posters. Kudos to you for at least being able to
figure it out even if you don't agree to the premise.

I'm going to start ignoring HTML, untrimmed posts and top-posting replies.
I can't tell on the first post whether your a top-poster or not obviously,
but if you follow up with top-posting (except for Teddy), I'm out of the
thread.

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Re: Top posting

I'm ordering everybody to STAY AT THEIR POSTS!

$Bill Luebkert wrote:

>Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
>
>>Well, I think that this fight of top posting versus bottom posting should
>>move to another one which is "Why using MS Windows or MS email clients?",
>>because I think the most important reason for top posting is because some
>>email clients force us to do that.
>>
>>
>
>I'm not sure if you said that or pDale who you were responding to, but the
>real point is that OE may start you off at the top, but there's no reason
>you have to stay there. Mozilla has the option of starting at top or bottom.
>Mozilla will remove the previous .sig for you and properly quote the message
>maintaining attribution.
>
>
>
>>By the way, I have found a little program (free) which runs in the
>>background and make Outlook Express bottom posting by default after hitting
>>"reply". I don't remember its name, but it was something like OE Fix or
>>something like that, but I don't like to use it because it puts its name in
>>the first line of the message.
>>
>>
>
>By the way Teddy - as far as I'm concerned you get an exemption, but you
>seem more capable (even being blind) to do a proper post when you want to
>than most of our seeing posters. Kudos to you for at least being able to
>figure it out even if you don't agree to the premise.
>
>I'm going to start ignoring HTML, untrimmed posts and top-posting replies.
>I can't tell on the first post whether your a top-poster or not obviously,
>but if you follow up with top-posting (except for Teddy), I'm out of the
>thread.
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>


--

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Perl 6?

> So what's the latest status on Perl 6 ?

If you really want fun, laughter and a chance to read Damian Conway, Larry
Wall and others (referred to as "@Larry" - those in charge of Perl/Perl 6)
live and unedited, you should subscribe to one of the perl 6 lists (
perl6-language is good - that and others at perl.org). They are hashing,
er, generating the future as we speak.

Currently Pugs is a Perl 6 proving ground - its a Haskell implementation
of the perl compiler in what was a whacky month. Out of the blue a guy
shows up, writes the thing using the basics from the first few Perl 6
specs and suddenly they've got a test implementation of P6. It was
amazing.

In some sense, the lists are not for the faint-hearted - they do go into
some details. For instance, the built-in 'zip' operator takes 2 things
(hash, array, lists) and interleaves them (like a zipper). It currently
is being represented by the Yen unicode symbol, below its just a capital
"Y" - this response is from Damian Conway:
> What should zip do given 1..3 and 1..6?
>
> (a) 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 5 6
> (b) 1 1 2 2 3 3 undef 4 undef 5 undef 6
> (c) 1 1 2 2 3 3
> (d) fail
>
> I'd want c, mostly because of code like
>
> for @foo Y 0... -> $foo, $i { ... }
>
> Pugs currently does b.

I agree that C should have named options (perhaps :min and :max) that

allow precise behaviour to be specified.

I suspect that the dwimmiest default would be for C to stop zipping
at
the length of the shortest finite argument. And to fail unless all finite
arguments are of the same length. Hence:

@i3 = 1..3 ;
@a3 = 'a'..'c' ;
@i6 = 1..6 ;

zip(@a3, @i3) # 'a', 1, 'b', 2, 'c', 3
zip(@i3, @i6) # fail
zip(100..., @a3, @i3) # 100, 'a', 1, 101, 'b', 2, 102, 'c', 3
zip(100..., @a3, @i6) # fail


Its a long way off (though somebody, following LW's comment that the
Apoclypses would relate to the chapters of the Camel, suggested that most
of the broad strokes are done) but you can watch (and help - they are very
friendly, regardless of how over your head they are), but Pugs, Parrot and
the Perl6:: modules will be giving us a good look at many of the features
already. It won't be your father's Perl anymore ... though p5 stuff will
supposedly run unchanged or, at the worst, w/ a flag/pragma/ENV setting.

a

Andy Bach, Sys. Mangler
Internet: andy_bach@wiwb.uscourts.gov
VOICE: (608) 261-5738 FAX 264-5932

" History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of
social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the
appalling silence of the good people. "
Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Re: Top posting

Scott Leighton wrote:
> On Tuesday 04 October 2005 7:23 am, Richard Z. Ward wrote:
>> For what it's worth, e-mail programs like MS Outlook make it
>> difficult to *not* top-post.
>>
>
> An excellent reason to change to a better mail client. Outlook and OE
> play by their own rules, it's not reasonable to expect the rest of the
> world to adjust to them.
>
> Scott
For Outlook Express users one of the solutions is QE-Quotefix here
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/
This program allow to quote top or bottom according to program setting and
this "switch" is available at systray program icon.
I'm OE user too and in basic mailing I quote top. But in mailing lists I use
Quotefix and quote bottom.

Petr Vileta, Czech republic
(My server reject all messages from Yahoo and Hotmail. Send me your mail
from another non-spammer site please.)


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RE: Top Posting

From: activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com
[mailto:activeperl-bounces@listserv.ActiveState.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Robertson
Sent: 05 October 2005 15:22
To: activeperl@listserv.ActiveState.com
Subject: Top Posting

> Am I the only one who is getting a bit tired of all the posts about
this subject, interesting though they
> maybe? Surely we've had enough of this now for a board that is
supposed to be about ActivePerl.

Nah. I am only tired of the ones that I disagree with :-)

> Is there not
> somewhere else that those that want to continue can argue the case for
and against top posting?

Activestate don't seem to have a list dedicated to discussing their
posting guidelines. I can understand your frustration, but given the
lack of an alternative this forum is probably the most appropriate place
for a discussion on how we communicate here. With the proviso that it
doesn't descend into a flame war, which is itself contrary to
Activestate's guidelines.

A couple of links (both of which have been posted here before) which may
be of use:

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/help
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

HTH, HAND

--
Brian Raven



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RE: Top posting

Scott Leighton wrote:
> On Tuesday 04 October 2005 7:23 am, Richard Z. Ward wrote:
>> For what it's worth, e-mail programs like MS Outlook make it
>> difficult to *not* top-post.
>>
>
> An excellent reason to change to a better mail client. Outlook and OE
> play by their own rules, it's not reasonable to expect the rest of the
> world to adjust to them.
>
> Scott

For many of us, changing to a "better mail client" is not an option. We have
to live with what our employer provides.

In dealing with our clients and other lists, Top Posting is preferred.

But please take note I am using Outlook and with a little effort I have
bottom posted. $Bill has cracked the whip at me several times and to avoid
the wrath of the great PERL God I try to comply. When I don't it's not
Laziness, just forgetfulness.

Thanks
Bill Conrad
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Re: OT -Top posting

Conrad, Bill (ThomasTech) wrote:
>
> For many of us, changing to a "better mail client" is not an option. We have
> to live with what our employer provides.
>
> In dealing with our clients and other lists, Top Posting is preferred.
>
> But please take note I am using Outlook and with a little effort I have
> bottom posted. $Bill has cracked the whip at me several times and to avoid
> the wrath of the great PERL God I try to comply. When I don't it's not
> Laziness, just forgetfulness.

Now they don't have an excuse - it can be done.

PS: It's Perl not PERL and I'm more like at the local mayoral level about
3 or 4 levels below Larry who is our god (notice the lower case).
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