Consulting Rates

Consulting Rates

am 22.09.2007 00:23:57 von nyte999

Hi, I've done some searches for fees and rates in the group already,
but it didn't really help me. I'm in Los Angeles CA, and I'm NOT a
database/Filemaker consultant by trade.

Here goes; I set up a Filemaker database at a previous job (again, not
a database person). It was a bit specialized in that I set it up so
that Filemaker talks to an outside application. Now six months after
quitting there's something broken on the application or Filemaker side
(they're not sure which). They want me onsight. I figure the job
should only take a few hours, but I REALLY do NOT want to do it, after
all, I quit that job for a reason! Besides, I'm swamped with work, and
I told them so. Yet I still feel like I owe it to them, and they're
practically begging me.

Can anyone give me a fair price for coming in on the weekend and
fixing this thing? I'm thinking like $300, but after reading some
posts in this group, where people are charging like $35/hr, my price
seems way out of line. But geesh, it's the weekend! And apparently
their IT guy couldn't fix it. So it's gotta be worth something. I want
to be fair, but wild horses couldn't drag me in on a Saturday for only
$70. Thanks for any advice!

Re: Consulting Rates

am 22.09.2007 00:42:59 von Lynn Allen

On 2007-09-21 15:23:57 -0700, nyte999 said:

> Hi, I've done some searches for fees and rates in the group already,
> but it didn't really help me. I'm in Los Angeles CA, and I'm NOT a
> database/Filemaker consultant by trade.
>
> Here goes; I set up a Filemaker database at a previous job (again, not
> a database person). It was a bit specialized in that I set it up so
> that Filemaker talks to an outside application. Now six months after
> quitting there's something broken on the application or Filemaker side
> (they're not sure which). They want me onsight. I figure the job
> should only take a few hours, but I REALLY do NOT want to do it, after
> all, I quit that job for a reason! Besides, I'm swamped with work, and
> I told them so. Yet I still feel like I owe it to them, and they're
> practically begging me.
>
> Can anyone give me a fair price for coming in on the weekend and
> fixing this thing? I'm thinking like $300, but after reading some
> posts in this group, where people are charging like $35/hr, my price
> seems way out of line. But geesh, it's the weekend! And apparently
> their IT guy couldn't fix it. So it's gotta be worth something. I want
> to be fair, but wild horses couldn't drag me in on a Saturday for only
> $70. Thanks for any advice!

Well, I live and work in LA County, and I'd guess that very few people
except hobbyists could charge $35 an hour in this market and survive. A
consultant usually only gets about 20 billable hours per week, because
of all the overhead involved with running a business and new business
development, so hourly charges have to be based on a living wage earned
in no more than 20 hours per week.

On a job like this, I'd do a daily/half day charge, or a 4 hour minimum
on site charge. Include travel time and expenses.

Daily rates can range from $500 to $1000+, depending on the consultant.
Yes, some people DO charge a pittance, but basically, consumers get
what they pay for. Hourly charges for the developers *I* know range
from about $55 - $250. And I know a *lot* of local developers.

I'd go for the higher end, as an emergency/weekend surcharge. If they
really want you, they'll pay you. If they decide instead to start
shopping the local FM developers, then you've ducked a job you don't
want. Either way, you're in a good spot.

I've always found that if I really don't want a job, I set the price
high enough that if the client agrees, I *will* feel I'm being
adequately compensated for whatever aggravation that comes with it.
It's a great way of filtering out the insincere clients.

Also, if you really don't want it, look up a local developer (not me,
I'm full up too) at http://www.fmdisc.org/member_search.lasso and
subcontract the job. Or direct your former employer there and let them
do the work. Plenty of us have done connections to just about any
outside app you can name.
--
Lynn Allen
--
www.semiotics.com
Member Filemaker Business Alliance
Long Beach, CA

Re: Consulting Rates

am 22.09.2007 02:20:41 von Helpful Harry

In article <1190413437.567285.280330@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
nyte999 wrote:

> Hi, I've done some searches for fees and rates in the group already,
> but it didn't really help me. I'm in Los Angeles CA, and I'm NOT a
> database/Filemaker consultant by trade.
>
> Here goes; I set up a Filemaker database at a previous job (again, not
> a database person). It was a bit specialized in that I set it up so
> that Filemaker talks to an outside application. Now six months after
> quitting there's something broken on the application or Filemaker side
> (they're not sure which). They want me onsight. I figure the job
> should only take a few hours, but I REALLY do NOT want to do it, after
> all, I quit that job for a reason! Besides, I'm swamped with work, and
> I told them so. Yet I still feel like I owe it to them, and they're
> practically begging me.
>
> Can anyone give me a fair price for coming in on the weekend and
> fixing this thing? I'm thinking like $300, but after reading some
> posts in this group, where people are charging like $35/hr, my price
> seems way out of line. But geesh, it's the weekend! And apparently
> their IT guy couldn't fix it. So it's gotta be worth something. I want
> to be fair, but wild horses couldn't drag me in on a Saturday for only
> $70. Thanks for any advice!

It's not really possible to tell you a rate - it's highly variable and
depends on LOTS and LOTS of different factors: experience, locality,
availability of other people who can do the job, the job concerned, the
employer, etc., etc. as well as basically how greedy you personally
are. In many cases it's often better to be done as a "per job" charge
rather than an "hourly rate".

Helpful Harry
Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships ;o)

Re: Consulting Rates

am 22.09.2007 02:28:14 von d-42

> Well, I live and work in LA County, and I'd guess that very few people
> except hobbyists could charge $35 an hour in this market and survive. A
> consultant usually only gets about 20 billable hours per week, because
> of all the overhead involved with running a business and new business
> development, so hourly charges have to be based on a living wage earned
> in no more than 20 hours per week.

Note for a consultant with multiple large renewable contracts that
forumla doesn't really apply, so its not a universal truth. For them,
40+ billable hours a week is achievable with minimal new business
development, and ones rates generally reflect that.

It just makes sense. Like anything... volume is cheaper... if one is
negotiating on a 5 hour job, yeah its going to cost more, but if you
have a project that will take 1000 hours over 12 months; renewable for
the next 5 years...yeah, one should be able to negotiate a decent
break on the rate,

> Daily rates can range from $500 to $1000+, depending on the consultant.
> Yes, some people DO charge a pittance, but basically, consumers get
> what they pay for. Hourly charges for the developers *I* know range
> from about $55 - $250. And I know a *lot* of local developers.

I agree with what your saying, but I'd point out that you come off as
elitist trying to justify exessives rates by implying that only a
hobbyist/incompetent charges less.

The reality is that a $250/hr consultant in my experience is only
occasionally worth it. And you don't always get what you pay for.

Often the best consultant is the one who built it in the first place.
And most $250 consultants I know are in -that- situation, mostly
booked up with work from lontime existing clients where for that
client the money is worth it, because that consultant really knows
their systems inside and out.

Anyone else would take months, or even longer to really get up to
speed on their system. So for them, the premium has real value.

But if your looking at a new project. The $250/guy is usually just a
waste. You aren't paying for 'super hero competence', you are simply
paying him that much because his other clients will, and that's what
his time is worth to -THEM-.

But to you he's really not going to be that much better than someone
else. And unless you are doing something specialized that the
expensive guy really knows (and he's the only one that knows it) you
are better off by far going with someone cheaper. And when you need
support down the road, that will be cheaper too, because on his own
code system, he will the 'super hero' (assuming you at least hire
someone competent).

Of course, If you hire someone incompetent, your hosed, at any price.
There's certainly no shortage of incompetence at the low end; but
since a lot of people set their prices based on what 'other people
charge' [hell, that's what started THIS conversation] there's no
shortage of incompetence at the top end either. Its not like you have
to earn the right to charge higher amounts. And sadly, if your
salesmanship is good, that can compensate for almost incompetent
coding skill.

> I'd go for the higher end, as an emergency/weekend surcharge. If they
> really want you, they'll pay you. If they decide instead to start
> shopping the local FM developers, then you've ducked a job you don't
> want. Either way, you're in a good spot.

Agreed from a strictly business point of view. Although, if he (or
she) feels he (or she) owes them something, and feels guilty then he
should take that into account, or at least consider it. I've done
stuff for nothing when I could have charged. Goodwill is worth
something too, not to mention having a clear conscience. (Just don't
let it cause you to under value yourself.)

cheers.

Re: Consulting Rates

am 22.09.2007 04:26:34 von nyte999

Hey, thanks for the advice Lynn! I think I'll offer to do it for $400,
and if they balk, then I'll refer them to the list you so kindly
provided. It's a win win that way!

And I have to address the other posts... I can't help it!

"..as well as basically how greedy you personally are."

It's not a matter of greed. I just want a fair price for coming in on
the weekend... the weekend which I so dearly covet...

"Although, if he (or she) feels he (or she) owes them something, and
feels guilty then he should take that into account, or at least
consider it. I've done
stuff for nothing when I could have charged. Goodwill is worth
something too, not to mention having a clear conscience. (Just don't
let it cause you to under value yourself.)"

C'mon, take my side on this. I'm talking about a company, not a group
of nuns. Why should I do free work for them? Plus I never said I felt
guilty. It's just that even though I quit six months ago, and even
though they admitted to breaking the database themselves, I feel some
responsibility in its upkeep. Like I said in the original post, this
isn't my line of work. I don't even want it. Maybe you could do it
d-42. I'm sure you'd charge them a very reasonable rate! :)

Re: Consulting Rates

am 22.09.2007 06:05:48 von Lynn Allen

On 2007-09-21 17:28:14 -0700, d-42 said:

>> hourly charges have to be based on a living wage earned
>> in no more than 20 hours per week.
>
> Note for a consultant with multiple large renewable contracts that
> forumla doesn't really apply, so its not a universal truth. For them,
> 40+ billable hours a week is achievable with minimal new business
> development, and ones rates generally reflect that.
>
> It just makes sense. Like anything... volume is cheaper...

This depends too. I discount long-term retainer agreements a *little*
but not very much. I still have overhead that has to be covered, and
personally, I can't do billable work that many hours. I choose to work
less, so my hourly rate has to be higher to maintain the living I want
to make. The key to making that work is delivering value beyond an
hourly rate.

>> Daily rates can range from $500 to $1000+, depending on the consultant.
>> Yes, some people DO charge a pittance, but basically, consumers get
>> what they pay for. Hourly charges for the developers *I* know range
>> from about $55 - $250. And I know a *lot* of local developers.
>
> I agree with what your saying, but I'd point out that you come off as
> elitist trying to justify exessives rates by implying that only a
> hobbyist/incompetent charges less.
>
> The reality is that a $250/hr consultant in my experience is only
> occasionally worth it. And you don't always get what you pay for.

Well, I suspect I may be a bit of an elitist, if by that you mean I
think that a developer should deliver value for whatever rate they
charge. Most developers I know come in in the middle of the $55-$250
range. The ones who *do* charge high generally specialize in esoteric
areas, *and* they get the job done faster, smarter and better than I
could, in those areas. I recently sub-contracted a job involving XML
integration to a colleague who charges high. He saved me dozens of
hours of thrashing about learning what he already knows. I could
continue to work and earn my hourly rate while he did the heavy
lifting, so in the end, he saved me and the client money.

Those who charge $35, in this market, are either undervaluing their
skills, or will take much longer to accomplish something, (or never
accomplish it at all) than someone who charges 2 or 3 times as much. It
behooves me to either deliver the same or better product in half or a
third of the time as a developer who charges the minimum. Either that,
or I have to bring additional value to the party. I don't compete on
cost for clients, as that way lies madness. If the primary determiner
of a client acquisition is price, then I let them go to the
lower-priced developer. I want a client who can recognize that I bring
more value to a project than an hourly database-slave. We control
costs, of course, but value becomes more important than cost. When I
cease to provide more value than they are recovering in ROI, then I'm
not their developer anymore.

You can take this to absurdity, of course. Anyone, now, can outsource
their FM to India, for something around $12 an hour. From the anecdotal
experience of developer friends who tried this, you get mediocre
results, along with tons of communication problems, but you DO get FM
work done. Nobody running their own business in LA, CA, can work for
that amount of money and making a living. Can't be done between taxes,
insurance, cost of living, etc.

I've stepped in many times after those low-cost developers who just
couldn't finish a project, or deliver a product that satisfied the
client. Most often, the client ended up losing all the money they'd
paid the first (or second or third) low-priced developer. Poor data
structure, unworkable nomenclature, using FM2.1 tricks in FM7, usually
it all has to be discarded.

> Often the best consultant is the one who built it in the first place.
> And most $250 consultants I know are in -that- situation, mostly
> booked up with work from lontime existing clients where for that
> client the money is worth it, because that consultant really knows
> their systems inside and out.

I agree with this. If a client can continue to work with the original
developer of a satisfactory product, the savings in ramp-up time are
substantial. Though sometimes, if it's a little tweak, anybody can step
in and add a field or a report.
>
> But if your looking at a new project. The $250/guy is usually just a
> waste. You aren't paying for 'super hero competence', you are simply
> paying him that much because his other clients will, and that's what
> his time is worth to -THEM-.

Um, no, not completely. Like I said, on the higher end, clients have to
evaluate value, not price. For instance, if I can put in place a system
that saves a client $500,000 per year in purchasing costs, then it's
worth it to them to pay me $50,000, even if it takes me less than 100
hours of development to do so. Another, cheaper developer *might* be
able to do the same thing, no telling, but it *isn't worth any more to
the client*. The client never recovers more than the $500,000, no
matter what they pay the developer. The process becomes determining how
much of the eventual ROI it makes sense for the client to invest.
(BTW, the above example is real). If they go with a cheaper developer,
it might take longer for them to deliver (or they might not deliver at
all) and for larger clients, time to delivery is usually critical. My
hourly rate, along with the fact that I have many other clients paying
the same thing, plus my references, help assure the client that I CAN
deliver what they need, while the lower-rate developer may not.

Clients always have the option to pursue lower cost...sufficient of
them have decided to select me that I am fully booked for the
foreseeable future.

One does NOT have to be the lowest bidder in order to win FM work.
>
> Of course, If you hire someone incompetent, your hosed, at any price.
> There's certainly no shortage of incompetence at the low end; but
> since a lot of people set their prices based on what 'other people
> charge' [hell, that's what started THIS conversation] there's no
> shortage of incompetence at the top end either. Its not like you have
> to earn the right to charge higher amounts. And sadly, if your
> salesmanship is good, that can compensate for almost incompetent
> coding skill.

To a certain extent, your last sentence is true. I know truly wretched
FM developers who nevertheless manage to sell sell sell! However,
these people rarely build long-term relationships with clients, and
they tend to settle into the vertical market niche where they can get
lots of one-off sales, rather than projects lasting years.

Which is why, if your developer has a lot of references, all of whom
are HAPPY they paid the higher prices, the chances you're getting a
competent developer are better. This is why I encourage my
prospective clients to contact my references, who include the first
client I ever had. Other factors go into it too, including mutual good
feeling about being able to communicate and work together.

BTW, I may have started out (like the Original Poster) setting my rates
by what "other people" who were beginners were charging, but I didn't
stay there long. I had to start raising my rates almost immediately to
cut back on my client base. I was getting TOO much work. Raising rates
is one good mechanism to manage one's time-on-computer. One ceases
raising rates when the new work starts to dry up. (It's call price
elasticity) Hasn't happened to me yet.

There are no direct correlations between rates charged and competence,
in my opinion. Rate determination has to take in a lot of practical
factors, and there's very little "elitism" involved. We're not
Hollywood hairdressers, after all. ;)

BTW, in Los Angeles, $35 per hour, when one is the business owner, is
not a very good rate, period. There is overhead PER HOUR that never
reduces no matter how many hours per week one works. The "I can charge
less because I work more" is a fallacy carried over from being an
employee, and getting a raise. To the employee, a raise puts more money
in their pocket. To a business owner, not always. There are
irreducible taxes, and costs that cannot be spread over more hours.

Which is why I characterized someone IN THIS MARKET who charges such a
rate as a "hobbyist." Unless someone has an employer or another party
paying for insurance, office costs, vacation time, taking care of
withholding or subsidizing hardware and software costs, it's not a
living wage, unless one lives in a yurt and eats brown rice
exclusively. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

In places where it's cheaper to live, developers charge less, on average.

--
Lynn Allen
--
www.semiotics.com
Member Filemaker Business Alliance
Long Beach, CA

Re: Consulting Rates

am 22.09.2007 06:34:55 von d-42

On Sep 21, 7:26 pm, nyte999 wrote:
> Hey, thanks for the advice Lynn! I think I'll offer to do it for $400,
> and if they balk, then I'll refer them to the list you so kindly
> provided. It's a win win that way!
>
> And I have to address the other posts... I can't help it!
>
> "..as well as basically how greedy you personally are."
>
> It's not a matter of greed. I just want a fair price for coming in on
> the weekend... the weekend which I so dearly covet...
>
> "Although, if he (or she) feels he (or she) owes them something, and
> feels guilty then he should take that into account, or at least
> consider it. I've done
> stuff for nothing when I could have charged. Goodwill is worth
> something too, not to mention having a clear conscience. (Just don't
> let it cause you to under value yourself.)"
>
> C'mon, take my side on this. I'm talking about a company, not a group
> of nuns. Why should I do free work for them? Plus I never said I felt
> guilty. It's just that even though I quit six months ago, and even
> though they admitted to breaking the database themselves, I feel some
> responsibility in its upkeep. Like I said in the original post, this
> isn't my line of work. I don't even want it. Maybe you could do it
> d-42. I'm sure you'd charge them a very reasonable rate! :)

Nope. I'm not going onsite in California for anything anyone would
consider reasonable.

Re: Consulting Rates

am 22.09.2007 08:08:04 von Helpful Harry

In article <1190427994.094189.208690@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
nyte999 wrote:

> Hey, thanks for the advice Lynn! I think I'll offer to do it for $400,
> and if they balk, then I'll refer them to the list you so kindly
> provided. It's a win win that way!
>
> And I have to address the other posts... I can't help it!
>
> "..as well as basically how greedy you personally are."
>
> It's not a matter of greed. I just want a fair price for coming in on
> the weekend... the weekend which I so dearly covet...

I didn't mean to imply you were greedy, only that SOME people do bump
their fees higher then necessary for purely greedy reasons.

Helpful Harry
Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships ;o)

Re: Consulting Rates

am 22.09.2007 08:20:25 von d-42

On Sep 21, 9:05 pm, Lynn Allen wrote:
> On 2007-09-21 17:28:14 -0700, d-42 said:

> This depends too. I discount long-term retainer agreements a *little*
> but not very much.

Hmm I think of retainer agreements as being a situation where I'm
getting paid 10/hrs month whether I'm needed or not; on the
expectation that I damned well better be available for 10 hours if
they need me. Since you can safely 'overbook' hours on such
arrangements they are fairly easy to discount. As you can effectively
bill for the same hour multiple times. Once in a blue moon you'll have
a hectic month when everyone shows up at the same time with a critical
problem, but most months you work 1 or 2 hours and get paid 10 for
each.

As for -big- projects with 1000s of hours, a consultant would just
farm it out to subcontractors and manage the project. The rate would
typically be well above what the subcontracters are being paid and
well below what you'd pay if you had the consultant do it entirely
herself. :) Again, its discountable because you aren't actually
working the hours your are billing for.

I agree if you have to actually personally work the hours being
billed, then there is a certain level of inflexibility on rate.

> Most developers I know come in in the middle of the $55-$250
> range. The ones who *do* charge high generally specialize in esoteric
> areas, *and* they get the job done faster, smarter and better than I
> could, in those areas.

And those ones are worth top dollar for that part. No question.

Hiring you, and having you sub out the pieces that were more
efficiently not done by you was better value to the client than having
you do it. ... you said that yourself.

I'm just saying, had your client hired the expensive consultant for
the entire project instead then it would have been done just as well,
only that it would have cost more. Right?

> My
> hourly rate, along with the fact that I have many other clients paying
> the same thing, plus my references, help assure the client that I CAN
> deliver what they need, while the lower-rate developer may not.

I disagree. Your hourly rate doesn't say that. Your good references
and good reputation in the business do. Your hourly rate certainly
reflects that, but I'd hardly feel assured a job was being done right
simply because the consultant was charging me a lot.

> One does NOT have to be the lowest bidder in order to win FM work.

Agreed.

> Which is why, if your developer has a lot of references, all of whom
> are HAPPY they paid the higher prices, the chances you're getting a
> competent developer are better. This is why I encourage my
> prospective clients to contact my references, who include the first
> client I ever had. Other factors go into it too, including mutual good
> feeling about being able to communicate and work together.

Definitely. Good references both reassure the customer and justify
your rate. I merely think that having a high rate is not any
reassurance on its own.

Re: Consulting Rates

am 05.04.2008 06:36:23 von Peter Sturges

In article <1190413437.567285.280330@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
nyte999 wrote:

> Hi, I've done some searches for fees and rates in the group already,
> but it didn't really help me. I'm in Los Angeles CA, and I'm NOT a
> database/Filemaker consultant by trade.
>
> Here goes; I set up a Filemaker database at a previous job (again, not
> a database person). It was a bit specialized in that I set it up so
> that Filemaker talks to an outside application. Now six months after
> quitting there's something broken on the application or Filemaker side
> (they're not sure which). They want me onsight. I figure the job
> should only take a few hours, but I REALLY do NOT want to do it, after
> all, I quit that job for a reason! Besides, I'm swamped with work, and
> I told them so. Yet I still feel like I owe it to them, and they're
> practically begging me.
>
> Can anyone give me a fair price for coming in on the weekend and
> fixing this thing? I'm thinking like $300, but after reading some
> posts in this group, where people are charging like $35/hr, my price
> seems way out of line. But geesh, it's the weekend! And apparently
> their IT guy couldn't fix it. So it's gotta be worth something. I want
> to be fair, but wild horses couldn't drag me in on a Saturday for only
> $70. Thanks for any advice!

I was in a similar situation. You have to please yourself, they need you
- not visa versa. I charge $60 an hour for computer consulting, weekend
or not, 2 hour minimum. Regular customers get extra time gratis of
course, but one shot jobs are full rate.

Believe me, they won't mind paying you to have their critical system
working correctly. It's no different than fixing the toilet in the
office bathroom. Don't be bashful about your price, think of the
plumber's price!

Good luck,

Peter Sturges
Filemaker Guy
Honolulu HI

Re: Consulting Rates

am 06.04.2008 11:01:06 von d-42

On Apr 4, 9:36 pm, Peter Sturges wrote:

> I was in a similar situation...

Any particular reason your responding to a post that's some 7 months
old?

-cheers,
Dave

Re: Consulting Rates

am 08.04.2008 00:01:55 von manet

d-42 wrote:

> Any particular reason your responding to a post that's some 7 months
> old?

oversea mail ?

Re: Re: Consulting Rates

am 08.04.2008 01:01:56 von FastWolf

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 00:01:55 +0200, manet@invivo.edu (Philippe Manet)
wrote:

>d-42 wrote:
>
>> Any particular reason your responding to a post that's some 7 months
>> old?
>
>oversea mail ?

message in a bottle ...

Re: Consulting Rates

am 11.04.2008 01:04:25 von Chris Brown

FastWolf wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 00:01:55 +0200, manet@invivo.edu (Philippe Manet)
> wrote:
>
>> d-42 wrote:
>>
>>> Any particular reason your responding to a post that's some 7 months
>>> old?
>> oversea mail ?
>
> message in a bottle ...

fishmail
sea-slugmail

Re: Consulting Rates

am 11.04.2008 01:32:59 von Grip

On Apr 10, 5:04 pm, Chris Brown
wrote:
> FastWolf wrote:
> > On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 00:01:55 +0200, ma...@invivo.edu (Philippe Manet)
> > wrote:
>
> >> d-42 wrote:
>
> >>> Any particular reason your responding to a post that's some 7 months
> >>> old?
> >> oversea mail ?
>
> > message in a bottle ...
>
> fishmail
> sea-slugmail

dial up.

G