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#1: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-01 16:23:31 by TedD

Hi gang:

What do you people think of the .NET framework?

Please provide your thoughts as to cost, maintenance, benefit, and
whatever else you think important.

Thanks,

tedd
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#2: RE: Friday"s Post (WOT)

Posted on 2010-10-01 16:26:48 by Jay Blanchard

[snip]
What do you people think of the .NET framework?
[/snip]

I am not a fan.

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#3: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-01 16:26:57 by Robert Cummings

On 10-10-01 10:23 AM, tedd wrote:
> Hi gang:
>
> What do you people think of the .NET framework?
>
> Please provide your thoughts as to cost, maintenance, benefit, and
> whatever else you think important.

Until you posted this... I didn't... bah!

Cheers,
Rob.

>:)


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#4: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-01 16:42:55 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#5: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-01 17:08:57 by Adam Richardson

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 10:23 AM, tedd <tedd.sperling@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi gang:
>
> What do you people think of the .NET framework?
>
> Please provide your thoughts as to cost, maintenance, benefit, and whatever
> else you think important.
>
> Thanks,
>
> tedd
> --
> -------
> http://sperling.com/
>
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> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
Powerful.

Developers typically have to maintain a subscription to MSDN to be
particularly effective, however the toolset is very polished.

Additional costs come into play if you're using ASP.Net, as the servers
require licenses, too. However ASP.Net MVC represents a significant upgrade
over webforms ASP.Net (I've been developing websites using ASP.Net since
version 1, and I can't begin to count the number of times the markup and
postback model drove me nuts in the webforms version), and I'd have no
problem using ASP.Net MVC for most any web application. Additionally, I use
Rackspace Cloud for hosting, and it's pretty easy and cheap to spin up a
Windows server when needed.

The .Net technologies all integrate very nicely. For example, while the new
mobile OS is really late to the party (I'm not sure it will be able to
compete with Android and the iPhone), I can develop software for it using
technologies which would seem very familiar to any web or desktop
application developer.

I particularly appreciate F#, a functional language that looks a lot like
OCaml with a few .Net-centric additions, although C# has made some very nice
improvements that bring functional programming techniques to it language,
too.

That all said, I still use PHP for most of my web projects. Why? PHP is
fast, well-supported, cheap, and I like the community, although some
projects do seem to benefit from .Net (e.g., if web services are interacting
with a desktop app, it's easier to just build the whole thing using .Net
technologies.)

I could see the day when anything I would normally do in Flash is switched
over to Silverlight. I just find it a better conceived development
environment for RIA than Flash.

Adam

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http://nephtaliproject.com

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#6: RE: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-01 17:11:37 by Bob McConnell

From: Gary

> tedd wrote:
>> What do you people think of the .NET framework?
>=20
> It's a framework, like any other framework - can make your life
easier,
> can make your life harder by forcing you to take the path determined
as
> TOTP by its designers.
>=20
> That's "The One True Path", not "Top Of The Pops".

The installer and the license limit its use to just a subset of a single
platform. The attempts at producing clones on other platforms are
clouded by license and patent restrictions, and will perpetually be at
least one release behind the MS-Windows version.

In reality, .Net is a poor clone of the Java runtime environment, while
C# is a poor clone of the Java language. They were created after the
courts told Microsoft the Sun license did not allow them to subvert the
Java API to build applications that would only run on their OS.

Bob McConnell

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#7: Re: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-01 17:29:21 by Peter Lind

On 1 October 2010 17:11, Bob McConnell <rvm@cbord.com> wrote:
> From: Gary
>
>> tedd wrote:
>>> What do you people think of the .NET framework?
>>
>> It's a framework, like any other framework - can make your life
> easier,
>> can make your life harder by forcing you to take the path determined
> as
>> TOTP by its designers.
>>
>> That's "The One True Path", not "Top Of The Pops".
>
> The installer and the license limit its use to just a subset of a single
> platform. The attempts at producing clones on other platforms are
> clouded by license and patent restrictions, and will perpetually be at
> least one release behind the MS-Windows version.
>
> In reality, .Net is a poor clone of the Java runtime environment, while
> C# is a poor clone of the Java language. They were created after the
> courts told Microsoft the Sun license did not allow them to subvert the
> Java API to build applications that would only run on their OS.
>

C# has by now exceeded Java by quite a bit - and is, unlike Java, very
actively maintained and has fairly frequent releases with lots of new
functionality (4.0 was released this year and has functionality that
definitely makes me consider taking it on).

As for whether .Net is a better library than the JVM, I wouldn't be
able to judge that.

Regards
Peter

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#8: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-01 18:04:56 by Paul M Foster

On Fri, Oct 01, 2010 at 10:23:31AM -0400, tedd wrote:

> Hi gang:
>
> What do you people think of the .NET framework?
>
> Please provide your thoughts as to cost, maintenance, benefit, and
> whatever else you think important.

I'll be politically incorrect and say that it's evil.

Microsoft is a well-documented monopolist corporation which typically
either steals or buys most of the "original" technologies it issues. (I
just saw a video where a guy bemoaned all the advertising Microsoft did
for Windows 7. Many, many of the "amazing" features of Window 7 have
existed for years in Linux and MacOS. And as far as I know, they still
don't have what Linuxers would call desktops and MacOS would call
workspaces or spaces.)

It's also a *corporation*, which means hitching your wagon to them is a
liability. Just ask users of PageMaker, MySQL, OpenOffice, etc.
PageMaker languishes in Adobe's hands now. MySQL users (and its original
developer) are still waiting for the next shoe to drop from Oracle.
Major Open Office developers have now forked OOo, because of whatever
Oracle is doing/going to do with the programs. As an example, I recently
went on an interview with my old boss, who, when I worked for him, did
FoxPro development on a widely used accounting package. That accounting
package was bought by a couple of corporations in the last few years,
and now languishes. Further, Microsoft recently announced the "end of
life" for FoxPro, the language it was written in. Goodbye to a whole
industry of users and developers who based their business on a language
and software owned by corporations who simply have no time for them any
more. My old boss spent months searching for a comparable and
comparably-priced accounting package to take up the slack in his
business.

To .NET specifically, the framework was originally built on Java 1.4,
according to an acquaintance who knows much more about Microsoft
internally than I do. After a dispute with Sun over co-development of
Java, Microsoft went "not invented here" and created its own version of
the platform.

..Net is heavy and expensive, as detailed elsewhere.

I realize there are often economic issues involved, but let me reiterate
that I strongly advocate against using any language owned by a
corporation (like C#). I feel the same way about storing documents in
..doc format. We all know the version-to-version incompatibilities with
..doc format. But Microsoft can do anything they like with it; it belongs
to them.

Paul

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#9: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-01 18:13:07 by Floyd Resler

On Oct 1, 2010, at 12:04 PM, Paul M Foster wrote:

> I'll be politically incorrect and say that it's evil.

It's funny you should say that because years ago I did a short video =
called "PHP Commando". PHP Commando was battling the evil forces of Dr. =
Dot Net and his sidekick, Macro Mae. Leave it to me to do a parody of a =
parody!

Take care,
Floyd


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#10: Re: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-01 20:21:35 by Per Jessen

Peter Lind wrote:

> C# has by now exceeded Java by quite a bit -=20

I've been away from the Java "scene" since 2002 (when I worked for BEA
deploying J2EE on Linux/390), but assuming you're talking
about "deployed lines of code" or some other real-life measurement, I
find it hard to believe that C# should have exceeded Java.=20

> and is, unlike Java, very actively maintained and has fairly frequent=

> releases with lots of new functionality (4.0 was released this year
> and has functionality that definitely makes me consider taking it on)=
..

Almost every newer programming language in the world has gone further
than Fortran, C, Cobol and PL/I, but they're all very much alive and
kicking. And will each individually probably be able to muster
more "deployed lines of code" than any other language.=20



--=20
Per Jessen, Zürich (12.1ðC)


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#11: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-02 00:42:23 by Nathan Rixham

tedd wrote:
> Hi gang:
>
> What do you people think of the .NET framework?
>
> Please provide your thoughts as to cost, maintenance, benefit, and
> whatever else you think important.

..NET is loaded up with patents and pretty much Microsoft only, however
that said it is rather good. Previous versions of C# (1/2) are
standardized under ECMA-Script 334 and 335 which covers a lot of .NET
however doesn't include asp.net, ado.net and windows forms - thus a nice
open source implementation and platform is quite common now, namely
Mono, this is .net compatible and has good support/development and has
been used for everything from the unity game engine through to sims 3.
Might be worth having a quick look at DotGNU and portable.net (as well
as mod_mono for apache http - which supports as.net pages etc).

Might be worth noting that Stallman (as in Richard Stallman from FSF)
doesn't recommend using it because he's thinks MS will come with the
patent trolls soon, however microsoft has effectively tied themselves in
to a patent non assert ("community promise") which would prevent this.

Also worth having a look at "M" for something different/interesting/from
microsoft, and also OData which is a nice RESTful protocol.

Best,

Nathan


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#12: Re: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-02 08:46:13 by Peter Lind

On 1 October 2010 20:21, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
> Peter Lind wrote:
>
>> C# has by now exceeded Java by quite a bit -
>
> I've been away from the Java "scene" since 2002 (when I worked for BEA
> deploying J2EE on Linux/390), but assuming you're talking
> about "deployed lines of code" or some other real-life measurement, I
> find it hard to believe that C# should have exceeded Java.

Language functionality. I'd much rather use C# than Java as I can do
more in C# and easier than with Java. For instance, C# 4 has " support
for late binding to dynamic types". Does Java have an equivalent? Is
it planned?

Regards
Peter

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#13: Re: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-02 11:05:09 by Per Jessen

Peter Lind wrote:

> On 1 October 2010 20:21, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
>> Peter Lind wrote:
>>
>>> C# has by now exceeded Java by quite a bit -
>>
>> I've been away from the Java "scene" since 2002 (when I worked for
>> BEA deploying J2EE on Linux/390), but assuming you're talking
>> about "deployed lines of code" or some other real-life measurement, =
I
>> find it hard to believe that C# should have exceeded Java.
>=20
> Language functionality. I'd much rather use C# than Java as I can do
> more in C# and easier than with Java. For instance, C# 4 has " suppor=
t
> for late binding to dynamic types". Does Java have an equivalent? Is
> it planned?

I don't know, but Java obviously supports late binding.=20



--=20
Per Jessen, Zürich (14.1ðC)


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#14: Re: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-02 11:16:55 by Peter Lind

On 2 October 2010 11:05, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
> Peter Lind wrote:
>
>> On 1 October 2010 20:21, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
>>> Peter Lind wrote:
>>>
>>>> C# has by now exceeded Java by quite a bit -
>>>
>>> I've been away from the Java "scene" since 2002 (when I worked for
>>> BEA deploying J2EE on Linux/390), but assuming you're talking
>>> about "deployed lines of code" or some other real-life measurement, I
>>> find it hard to believe that C# should have exceeded Java.
>>
>> Language functionality. I'd much rather use C# than Java as I can do
>> more in C# and easier than with Java. For instance, C# 4 has " support
>> for late binding to dynamic types". Does Java have an equivalent? Is
>> it planned?
>
> I don't know, but Java obviously supports late binding.
>

I was looking more for dynamic types, much more of interest to the
average PHP dev as that's one of the typical stumbling blocks when
switching languages. And no, far as I can tell Java doesn't offer
that.

Regards
Peter

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#15: Re: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-02 11:20:04 by Ashley Sheridan

--=-V+PxGz5w4MZxoeSEUqwd
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 23:42 +0100, Nathan Rixham wrote:

> tedd wrote:
> > Hi gang:
> >
> > What do you people think of the .NET framework?
> >
> > Please provide your thoughts as to cost, maintenance, benefit, and
> > whatever else you think important.
>
> .NET is loaded up with patents and pretty much Microsoft only, however
> that said it is rather good. Previous versions of C# (1/2) are
> standardized under ECMA-Script 334 and 335 which covers a lot of .NET
> however doesn't include asp.net, ado.net and windows forms - thus a nice
> open source implementation and platform is quite common now, namely
> Mono, this is .net compatible and has good support/development and has
> been used for everything from the unity game engine through to sims 3.
> Might be worth having a quick look at DotGNU and portable.net (as well
> as mod_mono for apache http - which supports as.net pages etc).
>
> Might be worth noting that Stallman (as in Richard Stallman from FSF)
> doesn't recommend using it because he's thinks MS will come with the
> patent trolls soon, however microsoft has effectively tied themselves in
> to a patent non assert ("community promise") which would prevent this.
>
> Also worth having a look at "M" for something different/interesting/from
> microsoft, and also OData which is a nice RESTful protocol.
>
> Best,
>
> Nathan
>
>


I'd like to add a little there. Although the Mono project is great, it
is always left a step behind, because Microsoft has a tendency to
release newer features of .Net that the Mono developers have to play
catch-up with.

Like Paul mentioned, it's probably not safe to let yourself be tied in
to a closed format, even if it has open parts. One only has to look back
a few years to find more examples of companies losing data because it
was locked into an old format, or being stuck with old and obsolete
versions of software because the company that makes it stopped writing
it, or went bust. This sort of thing doesn't really happen with OSS,
because there is always a community ready to take up the projects.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk



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#16: RE: Re: Friday"s Post

Posted on 2010-10-08 15:22:36 by Tommy Pham

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Lind [mailto:peter.e.lind@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 2:17 AM
> To: Per Jessen
> Cc: php-general@lists.php.net
> Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Friday's Post
>=20
> On 2 October 2010 11:05, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
> > Peter Lind wrote:
> >
> >> On 1 October 2010 20:21, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
> >>> Peter Lind wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> C# has by now exceeded Java by quite a bit -
> >>>
> >>> I've been away from the Java "scene" since 2002 (when I worked for
> >>> BEA deploying J2EE on Linux/390), but assuming you're talking =
about
> >>> "deployed lines of code" or some other real-life measurement, I =
find
> >>> it hard to believe that C# should have exceeded Java.
> >>
> >> Language functionality. I'd much rather use C# than Java as I can =
do
> >> more in C# and easier than with Java. For instance, C# 4 has "
> >> support for late binding to dynamic types". Does Java have an
> >> equivalent? Is it planned?
> >
> > I don't know, but Java obviously supports late binding.
> >
>=20
> I was looking more for dynamic types, much more of interest to the =
average
> PHP dev as that's one of the typical stumbling blocks when switching
> languages. And no, far as I can tell Java doesn't offer that.
>=20
> Regards
> Peter
>=20
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> <hype>
> WWW: http://plphp.dk / http://plind.dk
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/plind
> BeWelcome/Couchsurfing: Fake51
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kafe15
> </hype>
>=20

I haven't done a lot of coding in Java & ASP.NET/Winform (specifically =
C#) yet. But from what I've seen and like so far is that ASP.NET =
supports unsigned primitive types (S/Byte, U/Int16, U/Int32, U/Int64) =
while Java doesn't - even though there are requests to have it =
implemented/supported back in late 1990s. Also, it's a shame that the =
same support doesn't carry to MS' SQL Server. It's a +1 for MySQL here! =
But then, if you intend to use MS' MVC in the future, it's only =
officially supported in v3.5+ (it's MS way of forcing people to =
upgrade). That being the case, it's no longer 'deploy anywhere' since =
Mono only supports up to v2, IIRC. PHP & Java has the major advantage =
of 'develop anywhere' & 'deploy anywhere'. Thus in the long run, you =
have lower TCO, IMO, due to the licensing for the OS and individual =
'client access'...

Anywhere =3D any OS that will support the JDK and/or PHP binaries.

Regards,
Tommy


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