Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

Is there a formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?
Tom

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

Yes, there is. It is part of the last name and there are not spaces.
MCDONALD.


--
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"Tom Warren" wrote in message
news:1106183290.320811.268300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com.. .
> Is there a formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?
> Tom
>

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

"DC" wrote:

>Yes, there is. It is part of the last name and there are not spaces.
>MCDONALD.

In the case of Mcs and Macs you are correct. However not for the Van and von den's
of seen. O with the apostrophe is an iffy case.

Tony
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Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

Tom Warren wrote:
> Is there a formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?
> Tom

"Drunk"?

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

Lyle Fairfield wrote:
> Tom Warren wrote:
>
>> Is there a formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?
>> Tom
>
>
> "Drunk"?

I had a feeling you were.

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

Tony Toews wrote:
> "DC" wrote:
>
>> Yes, there is. It is part of the last name and there are not spaces.
>> MCDONALD.
>
> In the case of Mcs and Macs you are correct. However not for the Van
> and von den's of seen. O with the apostrophe is an iffy case.
>
> Tony

I've yet to be able to code the capilisation for all known variants of
names like this... Esp with "van" which can have either caps (and there
are probably others).

Br@dley

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

"Tom Warren" wrote
> Is there a formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

PreSurname appears to have been coined here:

http://www.johncardinal.com/tmgutil/capitalizenames.htm

But most sites simply use "prefix". The site cited above is for a utility
to capitalize thousands of surnames correctly.


Darryl Kerkeslager

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

Br@dley wrote:
> I've yet to be able to code the capilisation for all known variants
of
> names like this... Esp with "van" which can have either caps (and
there
> are probably others).
>
> Br@dley

Me either, but I still try.

Tom

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:43:05 GMT, "Br@dley" wrote:

I'm an expert on "van". It's always lowercase if it has a Dutch root.
It is considered part of the last name. Don't confuse it with a middle
initial. I never understood the middle initial part - Dutch catholics
often have 3 names, like in Thomas Petrus Johannes van Stiphout. I
guess P.J. would be my middle initial?

-Tom.


>Tony Toews wrote:
>> "DC" wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, there is. It is part of the last name and there are not spaces.
>>> MCDONALD.
>>
>> In the case of Mcs and Macs you are correct. However not for the Van
>> and von den's of seen. O with the apostrophe is an iffy case.
>>
>> Tony
>
>I've yet to be able to code the capilisation for all known variants of
>names like this... Esp with "van" which can have either caps (and there
>are probably others).
>
>Br@dley
>

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

rkc wrote:
> Lyle Fairfield wrote:
>
>> Tom Warren wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?
>>> Tom
>>
>> "Drunk"?
>
> I had a feeling you were.

Does this mean you are not going ahead with your plan to refinance The
Breeze, so that you can come over and visit?

I hope no one took offense to my association of "Drunk" with Mc, Mac and
O. It was just a association I learned in my childhood.

The Vans, of course, were not drunks, but carriers.

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

Tony Toews wrote:
> "DC" wrote:
>
>
>>Yes, there is. It is part of the last name and there are not spaces.
>>MCDONALD.
>
>
> In the case of Mcs and Macs you are correct. However not for the Van and von den's
> of seen. O with the apostrophe is an iffy case.

Well Mac means "Son Of", I would presume the O' would be akin to that,
as in O'Clock.

Vans OTOH I have no idea, ask Tom, the only Vans I know are called
things like Ford Transit and Mercedes Sprinter :-)

--
This sig left intentionally blank

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

Lyle Fairfield wrote:
> rkc wrote:
>
>> Lyle Fairfield wrote:
>>
>>> Tom Warren wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there a formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?
>>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>> "Drunk"?
>>
>>
>> I had a feeling you were.
>
>
> Does this mean you are not going ahead with your plan to refinance The
> Breeze, so that you can come over and visit?

You have me confused with Mayor Grady.

I've been to Marineland. What else you got?

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

IMHO - and I mean that H sincerely - the best way to go about it is to
determine how many names you will allow - first, last and suffix obviously -
and usually only one middle. If you use that standard, then your example
becomes Mary Jane Hatfield, MJH. "Ann" is treated as a second middle name,
and dropped. The reality is that there are no limits to the number of name
permutations, and you have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere, just as you
have to make some final and arbitrary determination as to how big your last
name text field will be.

Now, is he TPV or TPv?


Darryl Kerkeslager



"Tom Warren" wrote in message
news:dsv0v0pghilcv97j3vfngonn02j8p7bhld@4ax.com...
> Double non-hyphenated names (either first, middle or last) has given
> my parser fits.
>
> Mary Jane Ann Hatfield
> Could be either:
>
> {Mary-Jane} {Ann} {Hatfield}; Initials {MAH}
> or
> {Mary} {Jane-Ann} {Hatfield}; Initials {MJH}
>
> One would think that as long as you use the same rules for parsing, it
> wouldn't be a problem, until you consider matching them with M. J.
> Hatfield.
>
> Thomas Petrus Johannes van Stiphout is in the boat (x 2).
>
> Fun stuff.
> Tom
>

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

Thanks to all *sober* replies.It seems there is no "formal" name, so
based on Darryl Kerkeslager's post I'm going with "PreLast".

Tom

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

Double non-hyphenated names (either first, middle or last) has given
my parser fits.

Mary Jane Ann Hatfield
Could be either:

{Mary-Jane} {Ann} {Hatfield}; Initials {MAH}
or
{Mary} {Jane-Ann} {Hatfield}; Initials {MJH}

One would think that as long as you use the same rules for parsing, it
wouldn't be a problem, until you consider matching them with M. J.
Hatfield.

Thomas Petrus Johannes van Stiphout is in the boat (x 2).

Fun stuff.
Tom

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

My production parser makes assumptions and enforces arbitrary
limitations, it's pretty accurate, (when the full name does not require
assumptions or limitations) array driven and very fast.

I'm will to trade speed to eliminate some of the more the troubling
assumptions and limitations.

I'm starting to test version(s) of my parser to see what can be done
with double non-hyphenated names. (either first, middle or last)

Double first names seem to be declining, although double last names
seem to increasing.

Thanks for the input, (you're probably right) but I gotta try anyway.

Tom

Darryl Kerkeslager wrote:
> IMHO - and I mean that H sincerely - the best way to go about it is
to
> determine how many names you will allow - first, last and suffix
obviously -
> and usually only one middle. If you use that standard, then your
example
> becomes Mary Jane Hatfield, MJH. "Ann" is treated as a second middle
name,
> and dropped. The reality is that there are no limits to the number
of name
> permutations, and you have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere, just
as you
> have to make some final and arbitrary determination as to how big
your last
> name text field will be.
>
> Now, is he TPV or TPv?
>
>
> Darryl Kerkeslager
>
>
>
> "Tom Warren" wrote in message
> news:dsv0v0pghilcv97j3vfngonn02j8p7bhld@4ax.com...
> > Double non-hyphenated names (either first, middle or last) has
given
> > my parser fits.
> >
> > Mary Jane Ann Hatfield
> > Could be either:
> >
> > {Mary-Jane} {Ann} {Hatfield}; Initials {MAH}
> > or
> > {Mary} {Jane-Ann} {Hatfield}; Initials {MJH}
> >
> > One would think that as long as you use the same rules for parsing,
it
> > wouldn't be a problem, until you consider matching them with M. J.
> > Hatfield.
> >
> > Thomas Petrus Johannes van Stiphout is in the boat (x 2).
> >
> > Fun stuff.
> > Tom
> >

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

"Tom Warren" wrote
> For anyone who cares, and future googlers:
> Patronymic
> http://search.cpan.org/src/KIMRYAN/Lingua-EN-NameParse-1.20/ NameGrammar.pm
> Some interesting name parsing ideas & code from the PERL folks.
> (I'm going to play with this)

I'm not so sure that this is not overkill for most apps. Capitalizing a
surname really comes down to:

' capitalize any letters after anything but a letter
' lowercase special exception matches (like van)

Proper Capitalization of complete names might require all the muscle above,
but it is checking for titles and honorifics and even some non-standard
versions of Jr. and Sr.

It is having a complete list of the exceptions that makes the parsing
accurate.


Darryl Kerkeslager

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

On 19 Jan 2005 17:08:10 -0800, "Tom Warren" wrote:

>Is there a formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?
>Tom

It always looks sooo fishy when someone answers their own question,
(like they're trying to look smart) but I just ran into this in some
PERL code.

For anyone who cares, and future googlers:
Patronymic
http://search.cpan.org/src/KIMRYAN/Lingua-EN-NameParse-1.20/ NameGrammar.pm
Some interesting name parsing ideas & code from the PERL folks.
(I'm going to play with this)

For anyone looking for a cheap (I haven't tested it for speed) and
drity name parsing method: (needs outlook and be sure to set the
reference)

Function ParseNamesOutlook(FullName As String) As Variant
'print ParseNamesOutlook("Thomas Petrus Johannes van Stiphout") '
scarry
Dim olApp As Outlook.Application
Dim olCi As Outlook.ContactItem

Set olApp = New Outlook.Application
Set olCi = olApp.CreateItem(olContactItem)

olCi.FullName = FullName
ParseNamesOutlook = olCi.LastName & "," & olCi.FirstName & "," &
olCi.MiddleName & "," & olCi.Suffix
olCi.Close olDiscard
olApp.Quit

Set olCi = Nothing
Set olApp = Nothing

End Function

Flame away
Tom

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:09:57 -0500, "Darryl Kerkeslager"
wrote:

>"Tom Warren" wrote
>> For anyone who cares, and future googlers:
>> Patronymic
>> http://search.cpan.org/src/KIMRYAN/Lingua-EN-NameParse-1.20/ NameGrammar.pm
>> Some interesting name parsing ideas & code from the PERL folks.
>> (I'm going to play with this)
>
>I'm not so sure that this is not overkill for most apps.

Overkill, I think so too, if all you want to do proper capitalizing.
I'm interested in defining and properly tokizing name components.

T ' manditory title (Mr,Ms,Dr,...)
t ' optional title
P ' manditory pedigree (Jr,Sr,II,...)
p ' optional pedigree
D ' manditory degree (MD,PhD,OD,...)
d ' optional degree

F ' manditory first name
f ' optional first name
A ' manditory first abbreviated (initial)
a ' optional first abbreviated (initial)
M ' manditory middle name
m ' optional middle name
I ' manditory middle initial
i ' optional middle initial
L ' manditory last name

C ' Patronymic (Van,Von,Mac,...)
' ' apostrophe (may help with Patronymic last name)
.. ' comma (may help with position of last name)
& ' conjunction (two people, two names)
- ' hyphenated (one person, two names)



Tom

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name?

"Tom Warren" wrote
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:09:57 -0500, "Darryl Kerkeslager"
> wrote:
>
> >"Tom Warren" wrote
> >> For anyone who cares, and future googlers:
> >> Patronymic
> >>
http://search.cpan.org/src/KIMRYAN/Lingua-EN-NameParse-1.20/ NameGrammar.pm
> >> Some interesting name parsing ideas & code from the PERL folks.
> >> (I'm going to play with this)
> >
> >I'm not so sure that this is not overkill for most apps.
>
> Overkill, I think so too, if all you want to do proper capitalizing.
> I'm interested in defining and properly tokizing name components.
>
> T ' manditory title (Mr,Ms,Dr,...)
> t ' optional title
> P ' manditory pedigree (Jr,Sr,II,...)
> p ' optional pedigree
> D ' manditory degree (MD,PhD,OD,...)
> d ' optional degree
>
> F ' manditory first name
> f ' optional first name
> A ' manditory first abbreviated (initial)
> a ' optional first abbreviated (initial)
> M ' manditory middle name
> m ' optional middle name
> I ' manditory middle initial
> i ' optional middle initial
> L ' manditory last name
>
> C ' Patronymic (Van,Von,Mac,...)
> ' ' apostrophe (may help with Patronymic last name)
> . ' comma (may help with position of last name)
> & ' conjunction (two people, two names)
> - ' hyphenated (one person, two names)


You have taken on a Herculean task, and it looks like you're doing it in a
more systematic way than I would want to attempt (brute force approach, ya
know). Good luck on it. When you've achieved your goal, if you feel like
Sharon ...


Darryl Kerkeslager

Re: Formal name for the (Mc,Mac,O,Van...) part of a last name? - NameParser.jpg (0/1)

>You have taken on a Herculean task, and it looks like you're doing it in a
>more systematic way

Actually, my street address parser was Herculean task, (1898 lines of
VBA over 10 years)
Because of my work on, and ability to use code from it, my production
name parser was done in a week a few years ago, but it’s got some
problems and it’s time to upgrade it.
It parses names based on component position only. (see attachment)

Tokenizing:
T or t ' title (Mr,Ms,Dr,...)
P or p ' pedigree (Jr,Sr,II,...)
D or d ' degree (MD,PhD,OD,...)
....Is already done, and fairly easy, regardless of position. (Does
name component words match a word in Title, Pedigree, or Degree
arrays.)

Tokenizing:
F,f,A, or a ' first name or initial
M,m,I, or i ' middle name or initial
L ' last name
....is problematic determining what is what, especially when there are
dual word names (Mary Jane, Van Lynn, O hara, Petrus Johannes)

Tokenizing:
- ' hyphenated (one person, two names)
....Is already done, and fairly easy.

What I’m doing in these test versions is adding:
C ' Patronymic Array (Mac, Van, St,... is last name)
' ' apostrophe (is last name)
.. ' comma (is last name)
....to {help} in determining which name component is the last name.
(the first and middle are always positional)

Lastly, I’ll add (or try):
& ' conjunction (two people, two names)

>Good luck on it.
Thanks, always helps

Tom