Re: remote admin

At 10:39 PM 4/14/2005 -0700, S. Barret Dolph wrote:
>I would like to be able to do some admin stuff on our school computers from
>home. What is best way to do this? Are programs such as "Webmin" better than
>remote logins or just different. The administrative tasks are usually more
>school administration than computer administration but not always just that.
>For example, I am now working on getting chinese input on our school
>computer. School administration work is usually just things like updating
>documents and making sure that the latest materials are available to them.

At the level of generality you have posed this question, it really has no
one answer. The options available to you depend on how your school
computers are connected to the Internet (mainly, what sorts of NATing and
other firewalling are involved), how you normally admin them locally
(consoles or X, mainly), and the nature and speed of your home (and school)
connection(s) to the Internet. And, of course, what approaches you
personally find "better" or "worse" ... for example, I find editing config
files on a console in vi convenient, but that's just a personal preference,
not an objective "better".

If everything is fast enough, the firewalling permits it, and you normally
use X to admin, then consider using remote X sessions via VNC.

If everything is very slow and firewalling is a big issue, then consider
setting up an ssh server at school that you can log into from home, then
connect from to the other systems you need to remore admin. Console logins
will best handle slow speeds.

I haven't used Webmin or anything like it in years, but using it, as best I
recall, depends on its having the specific modules you need for what you
want to do. (The Debian packaging system, for example, has a bout 40
webmin-* modules, each of which does something quite specific.) Check it
closely against your exact requirements to see if it will serve your "more
school administration than computer administration" purposes.

Webmin does have a module for uploading documents, so if "updating
documents and making sure that the latest materials are available to them"
in practice means creating docs at home and uploading them, Webmin can help
you do that.

I can't even begin to guess what is involved in "getting chinese input on
our school computer", so I don't know what Webmin modules might help with
that.

In fact, as I reread your message, I can't even tell if you want to be able
to access one or several hosts at the school ... in one place you say
"computers" but in another "computer". As usual, the details matter to the
answer.


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RE: remote admin

Details . . . details . . . . details . . . .

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Olszewski [mailto:ray@comarre.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:26 AM
To: linux
Subject: Re: remote admin

At 10:39 PM 4/14/2005 -0700, S. Barret Dolph wrote:
>I would like to be able to do some admin stuff on our school computers
>from home. What is best way to do this? Are programs such as "Webmin"
>better than remote logins or just different. The administrative tasks
>are usually more school administration than computer administration but not
always just that.
>For example, I am now working on getting chinese input on our school
>computer. School administration work is usually just things like
>updating documents and making sure that the latest materials are available
to them.

At the level of generality you have posed this question, it really has no
one answer. The options available to you depend on how your school computers
are connected to the Internet (mainly, what sorts of NATing and other
firewalling are involved), how you normally admin them locally (consoles or
X, mainly), and the nature and speed of your home (and school)
connection(s) to the Internet. And, of course, what approaches you
personally find "better" or "worse" ... for example, I find editing config
files on a console in vi convenient, but that's just a personal preference,
not an objective "better".

If everything is fast enough, the firewalling permits it, and you normally
use X to admin, then consider using remote X sessions via VNC.

If everything is very slow and firewalling is a big issue, then consider
setting up an ssh server at school that you can log into from home, then
connect from to the other systems you need to remore admin. Console logins
will best handle slow speeds.

I haven't used Webmin or anything like it in years, but using it, as best I
recall, depends on its having the specific modules you need for what you
want to do. (The Debian packaging system, for example, has a bout 40
webmin-* modules, each of which does something quite specific.) Check it
closely against your exact requirements to see if it will serve your "more
school administration than computer administration" purposes.

Webmin does have a module for uploading documents, so if "updating documents
and making sure that the latest materials are available to them"
in practice means creating docs at home and uploading them, Webmin can help
you do that.

I can't even begin to guess what is involved in "getting chinese input on
our school computer", so I don't know what Webmin modules might help with
that.

In fact, as I reread your message, I can't even tell if you want to be able
to access one or several hosts at the school ... in one place you say
"computers" but in another "computer". As usual, the details matter to the
answer.


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Re: remote admin

Ssh is the de facto standard for remote administration but It lacks the=
=20
ability to give you a GUI interface. SSH Is quick and dirty remote=20
administration and comes standard (or should ) on all Unix variants.=20
(openssh.com)

TightVNC is a rather "unrobust" remote X server but it gets the job don=
e. This=20
will let you connect remotely and get an X GUI session open.

If you can afford it, try to look into NXMachine (No Machine) remote=20
administration. It offers very robust and configurable remote X server=20
connections that are compressed and secured. This can be used over low=20
bandwidth connections because it uses caching and compression. As far a=
s I=20
remember, they offer single user single machine trial liscenses so you =
can=20
test drive the technology before buying and I dont think that the licen=
ses=20
are terribly expensive.

HTH!

On Friday 15 April 2005 12:39 am, S. Barret Dolph wrote:
> I would like to be able to do some admin stuff on our school computer=
s from
> home. What is best way to do this? Are programs such as "Webmin" bett=
er
> than remote logins or just different. The administrative tasks are us=
ually
> more school administration than computer administration but not alway=
s just
> that. For example, I am now working on getting chinese input on our s=
chool
> computer. School administration work is usually just things like upda=
ting
> documents and making sure that the latest materials are available to =
them.
>
> Cordially,
> S. Barret Dolph
> Taipei Taiwan
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-newbi=
e" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at http://www.linux-learn.org/faqs

--=20
----------------------------------------
--EB

> All is fine except that I can reliably "oops" it simply by trying to =
read
> from /proc/apm (e.g. cat /proc/apm).
> oops output and ksymoops-2.3.4 output is attached.
> Is there anything else I can contribute?

The latitude and longtitude of the bios writers current position, and
a ballistic missile.

                --Alan Cox LKML-Decembe=
r 08,2000=20

----------------------------------------
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Re: remote admin

At 10:40 AM 4/14/2005 -0500, Eric Bambach wrote:
>Ssh is the de facto standard for remote administration but It lacks the
>ability to give you a GUI interface.
[...]

This not *quite* correct. ssh can be used to tunnel another service, one
that provides a GUI (for example, VNC, or even remote X sessions directly
.... or I suppose even Webmin, if it does not already offer an https option
for encryption). The details can be found in the ssh and sshd man pages.



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Re: remote admin

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Eric Bambach wrote:

> Ssh is the de facto standard for remote administration but It lacks the
> ability to give you a GUI interface.

What ? Search for SSH GUI and google returns +770,000 matches.. ! Other
than that it can be used to encrypt just about any connection, like for
example X .

> SSH Is quick and dirty

Send a message to one of the SSH lists with that line in the subject. ;-)

> remote administration and comes standard (or should ) on all Unix
> variants. (openssh.com)
>
> TightVNC is a rather "unrobust" remote X server but it gets the job done. This
> will let you connect remotely and get an X GUI session open.
>
> If you can afford it, ...........


....


Then take 10min's of your precious time and look at some of the +200
projects that provide OPEN/FREE remote X administration.

Waf, waf..
The first computers were TIME-SHARING comp's . They had to be because they
were to expensive to buy. Don't tell me we have to buy software to work
remotely ??????? Back to the stone-age again.... Hmmzz.. Smell old Micro
soft users.. waf, waf..

Sorry people, but if small schools have to start buying stuff for these
relatively simple but fundamental tasks then w're definitely on the wrong
track in the OSS galaxy.

> HTH!
>
> On Friday 15 April 2005 12:39 am, S. Barret Dolph wrote:
> > I would like to be able to do some admin stuff on our school computers from
> > home. What is best way to do this? Are programs such as "Webmin" better
> > than remote logins or just different.

Ehm, webmin is also a remote login .. No difference inbetween the two, if
you put it generaly like that. You always have to login to your system .

Let me just say this:

Webmin can provide a lot of things to you AND to someone who is NOT
you. Make sure you only allow connections from your static IP to your
schools static IP address by firewall and learn to use hosts.allow &
hosts.deny. Pump all data thru secure shell, ssl or any other form of
encryption. Keep an eye on the logfiles, pick decent passwords, restrict
acces and change the password a couple of times a year.

Would be great of you also could setup a VPN, but is definitely not
required.

> > The administrative tasks are usually
> > more school administration than computer administration but not always just
> > that. For example, I am now working on getting chinese input on our school
> > computer. School administration work is usually just things like updating
> > documents and making sure that the latest materials are available to them.

Again, would be great if we would know what distro <-> pc you use and if
you know how to handle a X configuration. Because your already almost
there...

> > Cordially,
> > S. Barret Dolph
> > Taipei Taiwan

J.

--
Don't worry Ma'am. We're university students, - we know what we're doing.

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Re: remote admin

At 07:14 PM 4/14/2005 +0200, J. wrote:
>On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Eric Bambach wrote:
>
> > Ssh is the de facto standard for remote administration but It lacks the
> > ability to give you a GUI interface.
>
>What ? Search for SSH GUI and google returns +770,000 matches.. ! Other
>than that it can be used to encrypt just about any connection, like for
>example X .
>
> > SSH Is quick and dirty
>
>Send a message to one of the SSH lists with that line in the subject. ;-)
>
> > remote administration and comes standard (or should ) on all Unix
> > variants. (openssh.com)
> >
> > TightVNC is a rather "unrobust" remote X server but it gets the job
> done. This
> > will let you connect remotely and get an X GUI session open.
> >
> > If you can afford it, ...........
>
>
>...
>
>
>Then take 10min's of your precious time and look at some of the +200
>projects that provide OPEN/FREE remote X administration.
[...]

If you really want people to follow this sort of advice, you might want to
be a bit more specific about your recommendations.

I tried the Google search you suggest above. I actually got about 667,000
matches. More important than the lower raw number, though ... the top few
matches were to a *commerical* product (Techia), a GUI for *managing* sshd
locally (SecPanel), and what looks like an *abandoned*, incomplete effort
located at Sourceforge (ssh-gui, last updated June 2000).

I scanned the top 50 Google responses a bit more quickly, and saw a mix of
secondary references to these 3 apps, mailing-list questions that offered
no solutions, and references to tunneling VNC over ssh.

So some better guidence to the "+200 projects" you allude to would be
welcome. I'm having no luck finding any of them in the Debian package
management system ("apt-cache", that is, on Debian Unstable), using what I
think of as obvious, beginner-level searching strategies. And your
suggested Google search didn't prove profitable. So where are they, and are
there any you can actually recommend to a beginner (this is a list where
*beginners* ask questions, after all)?

(Just so you know ... I don't do much remote admin any more. When I do
(did), I usually use(d) ssh-based console sessions. I've occasionally used
tunneled VNC connections, and even more occasionally tunneled X, but I've
always found the line speed (cheap ADSL on both ends) too slow to make
gui-based approaches comfortable for any situation in which a CLI approach
was a real alternative.)



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Re: remote admin

Eric Bambach wrote:
>
> Ssh is the de facto standard for remote administration
> but It lacks the ability to give you a GUI interface.

Getting a GUI interface for ssh is easy. Simply start
ssh from an xterm, login to the remote server and execute
xterm. This will cause a remote xterm to appear on your
local X display.

Instead of a remote xterm, you can start a remote
window manager (or other X application) the same way.

Cheers,
Steven






____________________________
http://www.basiclinux.com.ru
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Re: remote admin

On Thursday 14 April 2005 02:47 pm, qwms-avib@dea.spamcon.org wrote:
> Eric Bambach wrote:
> > Ssh is the de facto standard for remote administration
> > but It lacks the ability to give you a GUI interface.
>
> Getting a GUI interface for ssh is easy. Simply start
> ssh from an xterm, login to the remote server and execute
> xterm. This will cause a remote xterm to appear on your
> local X display.
>
> Instead of a remote xterm, you can start a remote
> window manager (or other X application) the same way.

Hehe, I stand corrected. I suppose *I* usually think of it as more of a=
=20
console administration app. Anyways, this is not a good solution if you=
are=20
logging in from a windows or "other" OS based machine. You would have t=
o=20
install a local X-server which may or may not be practical or useful.

Additionally, as others pointed out you can tunnel X connections over S=
SH.=20
While this is true the X protocol by itself is quite heavy and lag and=20
interactivity will be less than spectacular on anything less than 10Mbi=
t.=20
This is why I suggested NX Server for GUI administration because it doe=
s some=20
quite spectacular compression and caching I havent seen in other projec=
ts=20
(though I admit I havent done alot of diggin on the subject, only raw X=
,=20
lbxproxy, ssh compression, and VNC each of which has its own caveats)
> Cheers,
> Steven
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________
> http://www.basiclinux.com.ru
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-newbi=
e" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at http://www.linux-learn.org/faqs

--=20
----------------------------------------
--EB

> All is fine except that I can reliably "oops" it simply by trying to =
read
> from /proc/apm (e.g. cat /proc/apm).
> oops output and ksymoops-2.3.4 output is attached.
> Is there anything else I can contribute?

The latitude and longtitude of the bios writers current position, and
a ballistic missile.

                --Alan Cox LKML-Decembe=
r 08,2000=20

----------------------------------------
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-newbie"=
in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.linux-learn.org/faqs

Re: remote admin

On Thursday 14 April 2005 12:14 pm, J. wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Eric Bambach wrote:
> > Ssh is the de facto standard for remote administration but It lacks=
the
> > ability to give you a GUI interface.
>
> What ? Search for SSH GUI and google returns +770,000 matches.. ! Oth=
er
> than that it can be used to encrypt just about any connection, like f=
or
> example X .

Have you *TRIED* X over SSH over slow connections? There are better=20
alternatives.

> > SSH Is quick and dirty
>
> Send a message to one of the SSH lists with that line in the subject.=
;-)

I'm afraid I dont know what you mean. As far as I've experienced, if yo=
u want=20
a remote shell you unpack, configure, install, ssh-keygen, sshd, then o=
n your=20
local box ssh myhost.com. Im sure it can go downhill from there for mor=
e=20
advanced needs, but for grabbing a shell SSH is pretty easy especially =
if it=20
is preinstalled in your distribution.

> > remote administration and comes standard (or should ) on all Unix
> > variants. (openssh.com)
> >
> > TightVNC is a rather "unrobust" remote X server but it gets the job=
done.
> > This will let you connect remotely and get an X GUI session open.
> >
> > If you can afford it, ...........
>
>
> ...
>
>
> Then take 10min's of your precious time and look at some of the +200
> projects that provide OPEN/FREE remote X administration.

Could you back up your claim? Can you provide a SINGLE application besi=
des X=20
over SSH instead of inventing a random semi-large number. Instead of=20
providing good advice you instead be-rate my advice and give an offtopi=
c OSS=20
fanboy rant.

> Waf, waf..
> The first computers were TIME-SHARING comp's . They had to be because=
they
> were to expensive to buy. Don't tell me we have to buy software to wo=
rk
> remotely ??????? Back to the stone-age again.... Hmmzz.. Smell old Mi=
cro
> soft users.. waf, waf..
>
> Sorry people, but if small schools have to start buying stuff for the=
se
> relatively simple but fundamental tasks then w're definitely on the w=
rong
> track in the OSS galaxy.

Just because you have to pay for something doesn't mean its evil and yo=
u=20
should immediatly dismiss it. If it fits your needs for goodness sakes =
pay=20
the $50/computer and feed the writers who made the software.

The main concern isn't always price, especially if the price is low or=20
reasonable for the service provided. Why should this admin spend his ti=
me=20
hacking a random FREE/OSS solution when there is a reasonable paid=20
alternative that fits his needs better? Perhaps a free/oss solution wil=
l fit=20
his needs better, but to automatically choose free/oss over a paid solu=
tion=20
is just unwise fanaticism.

> > HTH!
> >
> > On Friday 15 April 2005 12:39 am, S. Barret Dolph wrote:
> > > I would like to be able to do some admin stuff on our school comp=
uters
> > > from home. What is best way to do this? Are programs such as "Web=
min"
> > > better than remote logins or just different.
>
> Ehm, webmin is also a remote login .. No difference inbetween the two=
, if
> you put it generaly like that. You always have to login to your syste=
m .
>
> Let me just say this:
>
> Webmin can provide a lot of things to you AND to someone who is NOT
> you. Make sure you only allow connections from your static IP to your
> schools static IP address by firewall and learn to use hosts.allow &
> hosts.deny. Pump all data thru secure shell, ssl or any other form of
> encryption. Keep an eye on the logfiles, pick decent passwords, restr=
ict
> acces and change the password a couple of times a year.
>
> Would be great of you also could setup a VPN, but is definitely not
> required.
>
> > > The administrative tasks are usually
> > > more school administration than computer administration but not a=
lways
> > > just that. For example, I am now working on getting chinese input=
on
> > > our school computer. School administration work is usually just t=
hings
> > > like updating documents and making sure that the latest materials=
are
> > > available to them.
>
> Again, would be great if we would know what distro <-> pc you use and=
if
> you know how to handle a X configuration. Because your already almos=
t
> there...
>
> > > Cordially,
> > > S. Barret Dolph
> > > Taipei Taiwan
>
> J.
>
> --
> Don't worry Ma'am. We're university students, - we know what we're do=
ing.
>

--=20
----------------------------------------
--EB

> All is fine except that I can reliably "oops" it simply by trying to =
read
> from /proc/apm (e.g. cat /proc/apm).
> oops output and ksymoops-2.3.4 output is attached.
> Is there anything else I can contribute?

The latitude and longtitude of the bios writers current position, and
a ballistic missile.

                --Alan Cox LKML-Decembe=
r 08,2000=20

----------------------------------------
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-newbie"=
in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.linux-learn.org/faqs

Re: remote admin

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Ray Olszewski wrote:

> At 07:14 PM 4/14/2005 +0200, J. wrote:
> >On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Eric Bambach wrote:
> >
> > > Ssh is the de facto standard for remote administration but It lacks the
> > > ability to give you a GUI interface.
> >
> >What ? Search for SSH GUI and google returns +770,000 matches.. ! Other
> >than that it can be used to encrypt just about any connection, like for
> >example X .
> >
> > > SSH Is quick and dirty
> >
> >Send a message to one of the SSH lists with that line in the subject. ;-)
> >
> > > remote administration and comes standard (or should ) on all Unix
> > > variants. (openssh.com)
> > >
> > > TightVNC is a rather "unrobust" remote X server but it gets the job
> > done. This
> > > will let you connect remotely and get an X GUI session open.
> > >
> > > If you can afford it, ...........
> >
> >
> >...
> >
> >
> >Then take 10min's of your precious time and look at some of the +200
> >projects that provide OPEN/FREE remote X administration.
> [...]
>
> If you really want people to follow this sort of advice, you might want to
> be a bit more specific about your recommendations.

Well maybe your right, ....... Anyway When I querry the google.com/linux
`the linux' search engine. It returns many of the ssh GUI projects listed
at freshmeat.net, sourceforge.net and other projects. Maybe even more
important tut's & howto's like:
http://www.vanemery.com/Linux/XoverSSH/X-over-SSH2.html

> I tried the Google search you suggest above. I actually got about 667,000
> matches. More important than the lower raw number, though ... the top few
> matches were to a *commerical* product (Techia), a GUI for *managing* sshd
> locally (SecPanel), and what looks like an *abandoned*, incomplete effort
> located at Sourceforge (ssh-gui, last updated June 2000).
>
> I scanned the top 50 Google responses a bit more quickly, and saw a mix of
> secondary references to these 3 apps, mailing-list questions that offered
> no solutions, and references to tunneling VNC over ssh.
>
> So some better guidence to the "+200 projects" you allude to would be
> welcome. I'm having no luck finding any of them in the Debian package
> management system ("apt-cache", that is, on Debian Unstable), using what I
> think of as obvious, beginner-level searching strategies.

That's prob. because there is no real need for that on GNU/Linux os. You
could always check the text `/var/lib/dpkg/available' manually or by using
dpkg -p, dpkg --print-avail ...

> And your
> suggested Google search didn't prove profitable. So where are they...

I am not going to paste the whole list of projects I ran into at freshmeat
& sourceforge.. Just search for vnc, rdesktop, keyword: `remote', kboodle,
mc4j, privaria, bo2k and that's just the top couple of hits on the
first page.

Butttt...... I am still not sure if the original poster want's
windows <-> linux or linux <-> linux or ?? Again some more info with his
question would produce better answers like someone already pointed out in
a previous reply.

> and are there any you can actually recommend to a beginner (this is a
> list where *beginners* ask questions, after all)?

Well, what is a beginner.. ? Different people, Different pref's..

> (Just so you know ... I don't do much remote admin any more. When I do
> (did), I usually use(d) ssh-based console sessions. I've occasionally used
> tunneled VNC connections, and even more occasionally tunneled X, but I've
> always found the line speed (cheap ADSL on both ends) too slow to make
> gui-based approaches comfortable for any situation in which a CLI approach
> was a real alternative.)

If there isn't to much noise on the DSL line, you can try to improve
performance by giving priorities and queueing the appropiate packets
in your firewall. Many central DSL phone centrals reset themselfs after
30min's of being offline, doing that one's a week can help...
Most default supplied DSL modems can't do transparant bridging in a proper
way and come with a crappy tcp/ip stack and firmware, always run the
latest firmware. There are many var's working on a line that could be
optimized. For example after I updated the firmware of my DSL modem it
suddenly stopped choking after a couple days of continues
downloading.. etc.. So that could be factor to. Then there is
the length inbetween your modem and the DSL phone central, properly
earthed modems and computers will also make a difference - Just like those
old 56k modems.

J.

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remote admin

I would like to be able to do some admin stuff on our school computers from
home. What is best way to do this? Are programs such as "Webmin" better than
remote logins or just different. The administrative tasks are usually more
school administration than computer administration but not always just that.
For example, I am now working on getting chinese input on our school
computer. School administration work is usually just things like updating
documents and making sure that the latest materials are available to them.

Cordially,
S. Barret Dolph
Taipei Taiwan
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Re: remote admin

On Thu, 2005-04-14 at 16:02 -0500, Eric Bambach wrote:
> On Thursday 14 April 2005 02:47 pm, qwms-avib@dea.spamcon.org wrote:
> > Eric Bambach wrote:
> > > Ssh is the de facto standard for remote administration
> > > but It lacks the ability to give you a GUI interface.
> >
> > Getting a GUI interface for ssh is easy. Simply start
> > ssh from an xterm, login to the remote server and execute
> > xterm. This will cause a remote xterm to appear on your
> > local X display.
> >
> > Instead of a remote xterm, you can start a remote
> > window manager (or other X application) the same way.
>
> Hehe, I stand corrected. I suppose *I* usually think of it as more of a
> console administration app. Anyways, this is not a good solution if you are
> logging in from a windows or "other" OS based machine. You would have to
> install a local X-server which may or may not be practical or useful.
>
> Additionally, as others pointed out you can tunnel X connections over SSH.
> While this is true the X protocol by itself is quite heavy and lag and
> interactivity will be less than spectacular on anything less than 10Mbit.
> This is why I suggested NX Server for GUI administration because it does some
> quite spectacular compression and caching I havent seen in other projects
> (though I admit I havent done alot of diggin on the subject, only raw X,
> lbxproxy, ssh compression, and VNC each of which has its own caveats)
> > Cheers,
> > Steven

You don't have to pay for an NX server: for example...

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=8139

An interview with Fabian Franz and Kurt Pfeifle regarding the FreeNX
server.

I played with it on my small home network and it works well.

Unofficial Debian packages here:

http://kanotix.com/files/debian/freenx/

They may also exist in Debian Sid, I haven't checked (I'm running Ubuntu
here at the moment)



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