Why can I find postings on google groups that I never saw on this list

I needed to find a thread I remembered from this mailing list and thought of
the list of mailing list archives on the dbi.perl.org web page. I found what I
was after in the groups.google.com archive but was surprised to see a number of
other posts I did not recollect. Examples are:

"DBD::Oracle for Oracle 9.2" thread started 1-dec-05
http://groups.google.com/group/perl.dbi.users/browse_thread/ thread/6ea69bfe603db
4f5/e70f0c2efc0819a4?hl=en

and

How to Handle Transparent Application Failover TAF with DBD-Oracle
http://groups.google.com/group/perl.dbi.users/browse_thread/ thread/e15d0e9ecc588
0ea/fc7c403d629391af?lnk=raot&hl=en#fc7c403d629391af

In particular I could not believe I would have missed someone saying:

"You can't do it. DBD::Oracle doesn't support TAF, direct loads or array
interface. DBI is not database neutral. DBI is geared toward MySQL and
PostgreSQL.

DBD::Oracle is not being fixed because Tim Bunce is pushin open source
databases, and Oracle driver isn't getting fixed and/or enriched with the new
features. If you want a decent database driver, try with Python. "

I cannot find these postings on the mail-archive.com or nntp.perl.org archives
so where did they come from? Is this some sort of mailing list to news gateway
issue I've missed?

Martin
--
Martin J. Evans
Easysoft Ltd, UK
Development

Re: Why can I find postings on google groups that I never saw on this list

On 12/6/05, Martin J. Evans wrote:
> I needed to find a thread I remembered from this mailing list and thought=
of
> the list of mailing list archives on the dbi.perl.org web page. I found w=
hat I
> was after in the groups.google.com archive but was surprised to see a num=
ber of
> other posts I did not recollect. Examples are:
>
> "DBD::Oracle for Oracle 9.2" thread started 1-dec-05
> http://groups.google.com/group/perl.dbi.users/browse_thread/ thread/6ea69b=
fe603db
> 4f5/e70f0c2efc0819a4?hl=3Den
>
> and
>
> How to Handle Transparent Application Failover TAF with DBD-Oracle
> http://groups.google.com/group/perl.dbi.users/browse_thread/ thread/e15d0e=
9ecc588
> 0ea/fc7c403d629391af?lnk=3Draot&hl=3Den#fc7c403d629391af
>
> In particular I could not believe I would have missed someone saying:
>
> "You can't do it. DBD::Oracle doesn't support TAF, direct loads or array
> interface. DBI is not database neutral. DBI is geared toward MySQL and
> PostgreSQL.
>
> DBD::Oracle is not being fixed because Tim Bunce is pushin open source
> databases, and Oracle driver isn't getting fixed and/or enriched with the=
new
> features. If you want a decent database driver, try with Python. "
>
> I cannot find these postings on the mail-archive.com or nntp.perl.org arc=
hives
> so where did they come from? Is this some sort of mailing list to news ga=
teway
> issue I've missed?

The mailing list is closed - only signed up members can post.
There's no way for groups.google.com to enforce that restriction, so
'phantom' postings can appear at Google. 'Bart the Bear" has never
posted to dbi-users that I recall.

--
Jonathan Leffler #include
Guardian of DBD::Informix - v2005.02 - http://dbi.perl.org
"I don't suffer from insanity - I enjoy every minute of it."

RE: Why can I find postings on google groups that I never saw on this list

> I cannot find these postings on the mail-archive.com or
> nntp.perl.org archives
> so where did they come from? Is this some sort of mailing
> list to news gateway
> issue I've missed?

It looks like the common factor in both cases is that the postings were
posted through Google Groups itself onto their view of the perl.dbi.users
newsgroup.

It seems that postings made in this way don't get back to nntp.perl.org
(where they exist as newsgroups - they're not part of the Usenet hierarchy
proper), and so also don't make it to the corresponding mailing lists.

If this is the case, then it seems that Google Groups should either make
their version of the group read-only (this would seem to be the most
sensible option since it's really a mailing list you should subscribe to),
or fix the apparent propagation problem from postings made on their
interface back to the source (nntp.perl.org).

--
Andy Hassall :: andy@andyh.co.uk :: http://www.andyh.co.uk
http://www.andyhsoftware.co.uk/space :: disk and FTP usage analysis tool

RE: Why can I find postings on google groups that I never saw on this list

On 06-Dec-2005 Andy Hassall wrote:
>> I cannot find these postings on the mail-archive.com or
>> nntp.perl.org archives
>> so where did they come from? Is this some sort of mailing
>> list to news gateway
>> issue I've missed?
>
> It looks like the common factor in both cases is that the postings were
> posted through Google Groups itself onto their view of the perl.dbi.users
> newsgroup.

Yes, thats how I saw it.

> It seems that postings made in this way don't get back to nntp.perl.org
> (where they exist as newsgroups - they're not part of the Usenet hierarchy
> proper), and so also don't make it to the corresponding mailing lists.
>
> If this is the case, then it seems that Google Groups should either make
> their version of the group read-only (this would seem to be the most
> sensible option since it's really a mailing list you should subscribe to),
> or fix the apparent propagation problem from postings made on their
> interface back to the source (nntp.perl.org).

I find it rather disturbing I can be posting to the dbi-user list and someone
can answer on google groups and I don't see it. If google intend it to work
this way I'm amazed and rather worried as I didn't see anything on google
groups that made this clear.

Martin
--
Martin J. Evans
Easysoft Ltd, UK
Development

Re: Why can I find postings on google groups that I never saw on this list

On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 07:56:06 -0800, jonathan.leffler@gmail.com (Jonathan
Leffler) wrote:

>The mailing list is closed - only signed up members can post.
>There's no way for groups.google.com to enforce that restriction, so
>'phantom' postings can appear at Google.

I was under the impression it was possible to post via nntp.perl.org without
being subscribed to the mailing list. If this post gets through, it is, as I've
posted using another email address that isn't subscribed.

If so, then it seems it's simply Google Groups not propagating the messages to
the right NNTP server.

Interestingly, the missing messages are present in perl.dbi.users on my ISP's
usenet server (news.ntlworld.com), as it seems they have a mirror of the group
as well. I wonder if Google Groups is propagating the messages to NTL, instead
of back to nntp.perl.org, and so the messages end up in a dead-end when they
should be relayed out to the mailing list.
--
Andy Hassall :: andy@andyh.co.uk :: http://www.andyh.co.uk
http://www.andyhsoftware.co.uk/space :: disk and FTP usage analysis tool

Re: Why can I find postings on google groups that I never saw on this list

On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 03:46:06PM -0000, Martin J. Evans wrote:
> I needed to find a thread I remembered from this mailing list and thought of
> the list of mailing list archives on the dbi.perl.org web page. I found what I
> was after in the groups.google.com archive but was surprised to see a number of
> other posts I did not recollect. Examples are:
>
> "DBD::Oracle for Oracle 9.2" thread started 1-dec-05
> http://groups.google.com/group/perl.dbi.users/browse_thread/ thread/6ea69bfe603db
> 4f5/e70f0c2efc0819a4?hl=en
>
> and
>
> How to Handle Transparent Application Failover TAF with DBD-Oracle
> http://groups.google.com/group/perl.dbi.users/browse_thread/ thread/e15d0e9ecc588
> 0ea/fc7c403d629391af?lnk=raot&hl=en#fc7c403d629391af
>
> In particular I could not believe I would have missed someone saying:
>
> "You can't do it. DBD::Oracle doesn't support TAF, direct loads or array
> interface. DBI is not database neutral. DBI is geared toward MySQL and
> PostgreSQL.
>
> DBD::Oracle is not being fixed because Tim Bunce is pushin open source
> databases, and Oracle driver isn't getting fixed and/or enriched with the new
> features. If you want a decent database driver, try with Python. "
>
> I cannot find these postings on the mail-archive.com or nntp.perl.org archives
> so where did they come from? Is this some sort of mailing list to news gateway
> issue I've missed?

Thanks for the heads up on this. I've posted this reply (via google groups):

---snip---

Bart the bear wrote:
> Harner@gmail.com wrote:
> > The Database Admins in the place where I work gave me the following the
> > tnsnames.ora entry and a couple others that look similar.
> >
> > stagging.rac =
> > (DESCRIPTION = (ADDRESS_LIST = (ADDRESS = (PROTOCOL = TCP)(HOST =
> > host.name.com)(PORT = 15)) (ADDRESS = (PROTOCOL = TCP)(HOST =
> > host.name.too.com)(PORT = 15)) (LOAD_BALANCE = yes) (FAILOVER = true))
> > (CONNECT_DATA = (SERVICE_NAME = stagging) ) )
> > I went poking around in the oracle.com site and found that this appears
> > to be Transparent Application Failover" (TAF).
> > http://www.oracle.com/ecostructure/blueprint_res/implement_d atabase_configuration_availability.htm
> >
> >
> > Since I have been asked to setup a tool to do some work on this
> > database I went to try and find out how the DBD-Oracle handles this. So
> > far my google searches have come up with very little. Is there some
> > info or examples on how this is handled and/or how to format the
> > connect string?
> >
> > I am particularly interested in the connect string format that does not
> > require the use of the tnsnames.ora file but allows the host, port and
> > sid to be specified in the connect string.
> >
> > Example: DBI:Oracle:host=$host;sid=$sid;port=$port
> > If this is not currently supported has anyone tried to handle this
> > programmatically and know of any hidden fun in the way Oracle kicks the
> > failure out during failover?

Did you try it? That kind of connection string has been supported since DBD::Oracle 1.03 (12th July 1999) and is documented http://search.cpan.org/~timb/DBD-Oracle/Oracle.pm#Connecting _without_environment_variables_or_tnsname.ora_file

> > I did mistakenly post this question in
> > http://www.cpanforum.com/posts/1197

Very few people read cpanforum for DBI/DBD::Oracle related posts. Also, messages posted on google groups rarely get through to the dbi-users@perl.org mailing list.

It's only because someone posted a note about this thread on dbi-users@perl.org (where several thousand people are subscribed, including myself) that I'm replying here.

> You can't do it. DBD::Oracle doesn't support TAF, direct loads or array interface.

DBD::Oracle supports using Oracle connection descriptions directly:

$dbh = DBI->connect('dbi:Oracle:', q{scott/tiger@(DESCRIPTION=
(ADDRESS=(PROTOCOL=TCP)(HOST= foobar)(PORT=1521))
(CONNECT_DATA=(SID=ORCL)))}, "");

I don't know if any deeper support is required for TAF, but if it is I'd be very happy to add it if someone sends me a patch.

> DBI is not database neutral. DBI is geared toward MySQL and PostgreSQL.

I don't know where you got that idea from, but it's wrong. DBD::Oracle was actually the very first DBI driver.

> DBD::Oracle is not being fixed because Tim Bunce is pushin open source databases,

Also baseless and just plain wrong.

> and Oracle driver isn't getting fixed and/or enriched with the new features.

Also wrong. Real life has certainly delayed progress (most recently with the birth of my second daughter a few weeks ago) but the Oracle driver IS getting fixed and/or enriched with the new features. In fact 1.17 is about ready - a release candidate should be available within a week or two.

> If you want a decent database driver, try with Python.

Ah. Perhaps you're right, from your perspective, but I'd be grateful if you didn't promote other software by spreading misinformation about DBD::Oracle.

---snip---

Tim.

Re: Why can I find postings on google groups that I never saw on this list

On 12/6/05, Martin J. Evans wrote:
>
> On 06-Dec-2005 Andy Hassall wrote:
> > If this is the case, then it seems that Google Groups should either mak=
e
> > their version of the group read-only (this would seem to be the most
> > sensible option since it's really a mailing list you should subscribe t=
o),
> > or fix the apparent propagation problem from postings made on their
> > interface back to the source (nntp.perl.org).
>
> I find it rather disturbing I can be posting to the dbi-user list and som=
eone
> can answer on google groups and I don't see it. If google intend it to wo=
rk
> this way I'm amazed and rather worried as I didn't see anything on google
> groups that made this clear.

As a former usenet admin I can attest that configuing the news server
to propoagate
the perl.* groups out through nntp.perl.org would be trival. If
nntp.perl.org wants to
allow unverified content arriving through that channel to get copied out to
subsciber-only mailing lists, that's another story, as usenet can be
awfully spammy.

Google has pretty good junk filters though, so maybe opening that channel w=
ould
be a good thing, if googlegroups doesn't send any junk through.

Re: Why can I find postings on google groups that I never saw onthis list

David Nicol wrote:
> On 12/6/05, Martin J. Evans wrote:
>
>>On 06-Dec-2005 Andy Hassall wrote:
>>
>>>If this is the case, then it seems that Google Groups should either make
>>>their version of the group read-only (this would seem to be the most
>>>sensible option since it's really a mailing list you should subscribe to),
>>>or fix the apparent propagation problem from postings made on their
>>>interface back to the source (nntp.perl.org).
>>
>>I find it rather disturbing I can be posting to the dbi-user list and someone
>>can answer on google groups and I don't see it. If google intend it to work
>>this way I'm amazed and rather worried as I didn't see anything on google
>>groups that made this clear.
>
>
> As a former usenet admin I can attest that configuing the news server
> to propoagate
> the perl.* groups out through nntp.perl.org would be trival. If
> nntp.perl.org wants to
> allow unverified content arriving through that channel to get copied out to
> subsciber-only mailing lists, that's another story, as usenet can be
> awfully spammy.
>
> Google has pretty good junk filters though, so maybe opening that channel would
> be a good thing, if googlegroups doesn't send any junk through.

What particularly worried me (and why I included it) was the total
misinformation (and I'm seriously holding back here) in a posting which
went unanswered because we did not see it. Had that posting appeared in
dbi-users I am sure there would have been no shortage of responses.

It almost seems like the mailing list has been userped in some way.
All conversation in one room is overheard by all interested parties
and all conversation in another room is only available to those who
turn up there too. I don't want to (and probably won't) look in two
places for an reponse to a thread.

I can't pretend otherwise, I don't like what has happened here in google
groups and was so surprised when I discovered it I first started looking
into my spam filters assuming some postings had been filtered out.

Martin