Reasons for the MSI package to exist

Can anyone give me any good reason why is there an .MSI package with
configuration wizard for MySQL? I understand the fact that msi is the
default windows install way, and MySQL is always using standards, but
thats not enough reason for me.

As I see, the .msi, and specially the configuration wizard that comes
with it, makes it more difficult for people to understand MySQL,
because they think it is a program like any other, that you install,
run, and everything is ok, and a database doesn't work like this.

IMHO, when people step into trouble using the Wizard, it makes them
think is MySQL fault, while most problems are caused by the wizard
itself. It should simply place the files, install and start the
service, and serve people a nice, short and easy README for them to
start knowing what MySQL is about.

I expect comments, not flames, thank you.

--
Daniel da Veiga
Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
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RE: Reasons for the MSI package to exist

> Can anyone give me any good reason why is there an .MSI package with
> configuration wizard for MySQL? I understand the fact that msi is the
> default windows install way, and MySQL is always using standards, but
> thats not enough reason for me.
>
Why not use the standard? If every program out there uses an MSI (yes, a
generalization), why not MySQL? MSI files can be easily embedded into other
installers, making it easier to add MySQL to another application's
installer.


> As I see, the .msi, and specially the configuration wizard that comes
> with it, makes it more difficult for people to understand MySQL,
> because they think it is a program like any other, that you install,
> run, and everything is ok, and a database doesn't work like this.
>
Why shouldn't it? MySQL has long had a policy of being up and running within
15 minutes of the completion of a download, and having an easy to use
installer helps meet this goal. I personally do not think the installation
process should be a right of passage to use the software, so I am all for a
tool that you install, run, and everything is ok.


> IMHO, when people step into trouble using the Wizard, it makes them
> think is MySQL fault, while most problems are caused by the wizard
> itself.
>
Then let's fix the wizard.

The MSI is not mandatory, neither is the running of the configuration wizard
after install. There is a NoInstall archive, and the box for running the
config wizard can be unchecked.

> I expect comments, not flames, thank you.
>

Hopefully you see that I intended to provide the former.

Regards,
Mike Hillyer

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Re: Reasons for the MSI package to exist

On 12/12/05, Mike Hillyer wrote:
> > Can anyone give me any good reason why is there an .MSI package with
> > configuration wizard for MySQL? I understand the fact that msi is the
> > default windows install way, and MySQL is always using standards, but
> > thats not enough reason for me.
> >
> Why not use the standard? If every program out there uses an MSI (yes, a
> generalization), why not MySQL? MSI files can be easily embedded into oth=
er
> installers, making it easier to add MySQL to another application's
> installer.
>

OK, so, guess its not the MSI itself. Its just annoying to download
the msi installer package on win32 OSes that dont have it. But that is
a minor concern.

>
> > As I see, the .msi, and specially the configuration wizard that comes
> > with it, makes it more difficult for people to understand MySQL,
> > because they think it is a program like any other, that you install,
> > run, and everything is ok, and a database doesn't work like this.
> >
> Why shouldn't it? MySQL has long had a policy of being up and running wit=
hin
> 15 minutes of the completion of a download, and having an easy to use
> installer helps meet this goal. I personally do not think the installatio=
n
> process should be a right of passage to use the software, so I am all for=
a
> tool that you install, run, and everything is ok.
>

Thats the point, lots of times its not ok.

>
> > IMHO, when people step into trouble using the Wizard, it makes them
> > think is MySQL fault, while most problems are caused by the wizard
> > itself.
> >
> Then let's fix the wizard.
>

Agreed, or just tell people WHAT the wizard is doying so they know
when a problem comes that it can be easily fixed configuring mysql by
hand.

> The MSI is not mandatory, neither is the running of the configuration wiz=
ard
> after install. There is a NoInstall archive, and the box for running the
> config wizard can be unchecked.

If I see a config option for a software that I never used before, I
would certainly try it. The point is not people who are familiar to
the app, but people that download it and think that it will
automagically install and run, while not certain of the basis of the
software. Then, they üninstall and reinstall again and again, while
the problem persists, they should be aware, or at least warned that
the config wizard is just a option for a configuration that can be
done manually with easy steps.

And that takes me to the point of the subject, lately I've seen LOTS
of problems (emails to this list) caused by the wizard, and most
people really think its mysql fault that its not working, while it
could be fixed by hand, pointing them to the docs.

>
> > I expect comments, not flames, thank you.
> >
>
> Hopefully you see that I intended to provide the former.
>
> Regards,
> Mike Hillyer
>
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> > For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/win32
> > To unsubscribe: http://lists.mysql.com/win32?unsub=3Dmhillyer@mysql.=
com
>
>
>


--
Daniel da Veiga
Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
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PS PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+++ R+* tv b+ DI+++ D+ G+ e h+ r+ y++
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Re: Reasons for the MSI package to exist

I think that in today's IT world, it's human nature for users to
*expect* to have a simple installation vehicle for anything they install
on their computers. Whether it be a productivity application, game, or
in this case, a DBMS. It's what people are used to in the Windows world.

The problem with this as we've seen from the posts lately, is that the
installer is causing more frustration than it's solving. And as with any
application, this leads to low confidence in the product from the new
user base. It's also human nature (at least where Windows
based-applications are concerned) for people to automatically assume the
software is flawed because of problems during installation routines,
which may not be the fault of the software at all. In the case of the
MySQL installer - Is a problem with it? Perhaps, but it could be the
configurations of the machines people are trying to install it on. There
are a billion different machines with a billion different
configurations, but too many people expect that the software should
install without a hitch.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I personally think that the problem
is too much expectation on the part of the user base. Too many people
expect to just have to click a Next button a few times, and *BAM*,
instant DBMS. I think that with something as complex as a DBMS, there
should be an expectation to have to do some manual configuration. After
all this is where the true power lies - the ability to tweak it just the
way you want it. On that note, I think that people must expect that for
something as complex as a DBMS, wizards can be more of a hindrance than
an asset in certain cases. Anyone who's new to Linux and has ever tried
doing an install of the Debian "Woody" distribution likely knows what
I'm talking about. Too many questions that they don't really know the
answer to, so they just press enter to accept the default.

I also feel (and again, no offense to anyone) that not enough people
take the time to read the documentation, and instead just post to the
list when they run into a problem, even if the answer is in the
documentation. I'm sure we've all seen enough posts of that variety as
well. Cheers.

Armando

Daniel da Veiga wrote:
> Can anyone give me any good reason why is there an .MSI package with
> configuration wizard for MySQL? I understand the fact that msi is the
> default windows install way, and MySQL is always using standards, but
> thats not enough reason for me.
>
> As I see, the .msi, and specially the configuration wizard that comes
> with it, makes it more difficult for people to understand MySQL,
> because they think it is a program like any other, that you install,
> run, and everything is ok, and a database doesn't work like this.
>
> IMHO, when people step into trouble using the Wizard, it makes them
> think is MySQL fault, while most problems are caused by the wizard
> itself. It should simply place the files, install and start the
> service, and serve people a nice, short and easy README for them to
> start knowing what MySQL is about.
>
> I expect comments, not flames, thank you.
>
> --
> Daniel da Veiga
> Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GCM/IT/P/O d-? s:- a? C++$ UBLA++ P+ L++ E--- W+++$ N o+ K- w O M- V-
> PS PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+++ R+* tv b+ DI+++ D+ G+ e h+ r+ y++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>

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Re: Reasons for the MSI package to exist

On 12/13/05, Armando wrote:
> I think that in today's IT world, it's human nature for users to
> *expect* to have a simple installation vehicle for anything they install
> on their computers. Whether it be a productivity application, game, or
> in this case, a DBMS. It's what people are used to in the Windows world.
>
> The problem with this as we've seen from the posts lately, is that the
> installer is causing more frustration than it's solving. And as with any
> application, this leads to low confidence in the product from the new
> user base. It's also human nature (at least where Windows
> based-applications are concerned) for people to automatically assume the
> software is flawed because of problems during installation routines,
> which may not be the fault of the software at all. In the case of the
> MySQL installer - Is a problem with it? Perhaps, but it could be the
> configurations of the machines people are trying to install it on. There
> are a billion different machines with a billion different
> configurations, but too many people expect that the software should
> install without a hitch.
>
> I don't mean to offend anyone, but I personally think that the problem
> is too much expectation on the part of the user base. Too many people
> expect to just have to click a Next button a few times, and *BAM*,
> instant DBMS. I think that with something as complex as a DBMS, there
> should be an expectation to have to do some manual configuration. After
> all this is where the true power lies - the ability to tweak it just the
> way you want it. On that note, I think that people must expect that for
> something as complex as a DBMS, wizards can be more of a hindrance than
> an asset in certain cases. Anyone who's new to Linux and has ever tried
> doing an install of the Debian "Woody" distribution likely knows what
> I'm talking about. Too many questions that they don't really know the
> answer to, so they just press enter to accept the default.
>
> I also feel (and again, no offense to anyone) that not enough people
> take the time to read the documentation, and instead just post to the
> list when they run into a problem, even if the answer is in the
> documentation. I'm sure we've all seen enough posts of that variety as
> well. Cheers.
>
> Armando
>

Exactly!
I couldn't put it in better words. Thanks.

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Re: Reasons for the MSI package to exist

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C6008E.E7A19440
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

People have to start somewhere. Imagine you have only ever used =
Microsoft Office, and Internet Explorer. iif( so, "your recent =
programming experience is probably little more creating a formula in =
excel", ":)")=20

Now suppose you want to set up and configure Apache, PHP, MySQL and =
Visual Studio on a test-box -- and you want to keep all of your software =
current. With so many active public domain projects, you should expect =
to have to upgrade some piece of your software once per month. 4 MSI's =
later you have a basic CURRENT install -- needing only configuration.

IMHO Manuals seldom tell the whole story of how and when to do a =
particular step, or how and when to make use of a particular feature of =
a software product.=20

Also there is the basic idea behind all of automation to consider. Why =
should each individual one of us spend half a day installing, when the =
necessary steps can be done by an MSI in a minute -- without error or =
missed steps. After all, the install steps are fundamentally the same =
(except for a few options) for every Windows Machine.=20

Finally, catering to the needs of us newbies (at least to some minimal =
extent), will make the user community larger over time. It allows people =
like me to become involved as users. I suppose this may or may not be a =
good thing depending upon your own point of view. But from my point of =
view it is great.

Bill Angus, MA
http://www.psychtest.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Daniel da Veiga=20
To: MySQL Win32 List=20
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 6:06 PM
Subject: Reasons for the MSI package to exist


Can anyone give me any good reason why is there an .MSI package with
configuration wizard for MySQL? I understand the fact that msi is the
default windows install way, and MySQL is always using standards, but
thats not enough reason for me.
/snip
------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C6008E.E7A19440--

Re: Reasons for the MSI package to exist

On 12/14/05, Bill Angus wrote:
> People have to start somewhere. Imagine you have only ever used Microsoft=
Office, and Internet Explorer. iif( so, "your recent programming experienc=
e is probably little more creating a formula in excel", ":)")
>
> Now suppose you want to set up and configure Apache, PHP, MySQL and Visua=
l Studio on a test-box -- and you want to keep all of your software current=
.. With so many active public domain projects, you should expect to have to =
upgrade some piece of your software once per month. 4 MSI's later you have =
a basic CURRENT install -- needing only configuration.

if you ever want to do that, you better read a lot, specially if you
have no programming experience or if you're not familiar with SQL
syntax. Those are very special apps that need special knowledge in
order to be useful, else you you'll get nothing but problems. And
reporting errors if you don't know what you're doying is not a good
way to start.

>
> IMHO Manuals seldom tell the whole story of how and when to do a particul=
ar step, or how and when to make use of a particular feature of a software =
product.
>

This way teaching the user what's being installed, how its configured
and even the basis on using it... All of this is VERY needed if you
ever want to use a DBMS. If you never used the Office Suite (for
example), you could install and use it as soon as the installation
ends with no trouble at all, but trying this with DBs, Programming
tools and Servers can be very tricky, and even dangerous.

> Also there is the basic idea behind all of automation to consider. Why sh=
ould each individual one of us spend half a day installing, when the necess=
ary steps can be done by an MSI in a minute -- without error or missed step=
s. After all, the install steps are fundamentally the same (except for a fe=
w options) for every Windows Machine.
>

It took me 30 minutes to install MySQL from the noinstall zipped
archive, while the .msi errored out a few times and refused to install
at win98 without downloading another package that I had to search
for..

> Finally, catering to the needs of us newbies (at least to some minimal ex=
tent), will make the user community larger over time. It allows people like=
me to become involved as users. I suppose this may or may not be a good th=
ing depending upon your own point of view. But from my point of view it is =
great.
>

This is always a good thing, specially with the new users read and
understand what is MySQL and how it works while installing, or maybe
before that. The manuals are almost complete regarding problems with
installation and configuration, and if you get REALLY stuck, you can
refer to the foruns or this list ;) with serious questions, not ones
that can be googled or found within the manual.

Anyway, there are different opinions and I respect that (while others
can't get away without hitting the reply button and calling me
stupid). Thank you all for your replies.

> Bill Angus, MA
> http://www.psychtest.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Daniel da Veiga
> To: MySQL Win32 List
> Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 6:06 PM
> Subject: Reasons for the MSI package to exist
>
>
> Can anyone give me any good reason why is there an .MSI package with
> configuration wizard for MySQL? I understand the fact that msi is the
> default windows install way, and MySQL is always using standards, but
> thats not enough reason for me.
> /snip
>


--
Daniel da Veiga
Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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PS PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+++ R+* tv b+ DI+++ D+ G+ e h+ r+ y++
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