fetchmail and mda option

Re: fetchmail and mda option

am 21.04.2006 00:07:03 von Alan Connor

On comp.mail.misc, in , "":

http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/README.offline>

Don't use non-us-ascii characters in your headers!
--------------------------------------------------

Don't use them at all except on groups where a different
character set is used by people 'speaking' a different
language that requires it. And then only in the body/article.

[Note: I don't read the articles of "Sam" or his numerous
sockpuppets or his 'friends', nor any responses to them, and
haven't for years. He follows me all over the Usenet, and I
still don't read his articles. This _really_ pisses him off.
.]

Alan

--
http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/contact.html
Other URLs of possible interest in my headers.

non-us-ascii characters in your headers [Was: fetchmail and mda option]

am 21.04.2006 00:26:53 von Andrzej Adam Filip

Alan Connor writes:

> On comp.mail.misc, in , "":
>
>

> http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/README.offline>
>
> Don't use non-us-ascii characters in your headers!
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> Don't use them at all except on groups where a different
> character set is used by people 'speaking' a different
> language that requires it. And then only in the body/article.
>
> [Note: I don't read the articles of "Sam" or his numerous
> sockpuppets or his 'friends', nor any responses to them, and
> haven't for years. He follows me all over the Usenet, and I
> still don't read his articles. This _really_ pisses him off.
> .]
>
> Alan

Wake up to reality. For most of the people english is not not their
native language. They have right to write theit first and last name
*exactly* "as it is". UTF-8 is coming.

The family name in "From:" header we talk about was properly ISO-8859-2
encoded using quoted prinatable encoding [no 8 bit chars].

P.S. I personally preffer ASCII *XOR* UTF-8.

--
[pl2en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
http://anfi.homeunix.net/

Re: fetchmail and mda option

am 21.04.2006 00:41:35 von Mark Crispin

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Alan Connor wrote:
> Don't use non-us-ascii characters in your headers!
> Don't use them at all except on groups where a different
> character set is used by people 'speaking' a different
> language that requires it. And then only in the body/article.

Mr. Jon'ca is located in Poland, as indicated by his email address. In
Poland, ISO 8859-2 (Latin-2, East European) is the standard character set.

In that character set, the codepoint 0xf1 translates to Unicode U+0144
which is LATIN SMALL LETTER N WITH ACUTE. I represented that character
above, poorly, in ASCII by using "n'" for the benefit of people who do not
have modern terminals. That character is indeed a letter in the Polish
alphabet.

He used the appropriate mechanism to transmit it: an RFC 2047
encoded-word, charset labelled as ISO-8859-2 and with "Q" encoding.

There is no prohibition on the use of RFC 2047 encoded-words in headers.
In fact, RFC 2047 explicitly exists as a mechanism to represent non-ASCII
characters in a message.

Last, but not least, even if he had posted in raw 8-bits (which he had
not), his message would still be compliant because the NNTP specification
explicitly blesses "just send 8-bit" behavior. The fact that I personally
do not approve of "just sent 8-bit" is besides the point.

This is the proper spelling of his name; "Jonca" is a misspelling. He
used proper 7-bit MIME encoding, for the benefit of people outside of
Eastern Europe. His message is fully compliant with all specifications,
including USENET standards.

From anyone other than "Alan Connor", it would be nationist bigotry (to
say the least!) to assert that he is not permitted to use the proper
spelling of his name in a USENET posting.

From "Alan Connor", we must excuse it as being another manifestation of
his mental illness, for which we hope he will receive appropriate
treatment and medication.

I wish that I knew the answer to the original fetchmail question, since I
would have done so in recompense for the insult to a person overseas
asking a completely valid technical question. I only home that Mr. Jon'ca
understands that the source of the insult is a mentally ill individual and
is not representative of the vast majority of people in the United States.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Re: non-us-ascii characters in your headers [Was: fetchmail and mdaoption]

am 21.04.2006 00:46:05 von Mark Crispin

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:
> Wake up to reality. For most of the people english is not not their
> native language. They have right to write theit first and last name
> *exactly* "as it is". UTF-8 is coming.

Of course, and software developers worldwide are implementing it. This
includes the Pine development team; we expect that the next release
version of Pine will support UTF-8.

I'm afraid, though, that the individual who posted that offensive comment
is not going to "wake up"; at least not without medication.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Re: fetchmail and mda option

am 21.04.2006 01:11:00 von Sam

This is a MIME GnuPG-signed message. If you see this text, it means that
your E-mail or Usenet software does not support MIME signed messages.
The Internet standard for MIME PGP messages, RFC 2015, was published in 1996.
To open this message correctly you will need to install E-mail or Usenet
software that supports modern Internet standards.

--=_mimegpg-commodore.email-scan.com-5987-1145574660-0006
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Usenet Beavis writes:

> On comp.mail.misc, in , "":
>
>

>
> Don't use non-us-ascii characters in your headers!

He did not use any non-US-ASCII characters in his headers, you Beavis.

Here's his From: header, Beavis, can you point out a single non-US-ASCII
character in it?

From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Kamil_Jo=F1ca?=

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Beavis shows his deep understanding of Internet mail protocols, again.

> [Note: it's not my fault that I'm a complete dumbass. I was dropped on my
> head as a child. See http://www.pearlgates.net/nanae/kooks/ac/ for
> more information]
>
> Beavis

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Re: non-us-ascii characters in your headers

am 21.04.2006 01:16:31 von Andrzej Adam Filip

Mark Crispin writes:

> On Fri, 21 Apr 2006, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:
>> Wake up to reality. For most people English is not their native
>> language. They have right to write their first and last name
>> *exactly* "as it is". UTF-8 is coming.
>
> Of course, and software developers worldwide are implementing it.
> This includes the Pine development team; we expect that the next
> release version of Pine will support UTF-8.

I wanted to *clearly* show difference between "non English" postings
in English using hierarchies (typically in German for comp.*) and
preserving "original" version of first and last name.

I have already seen postings/mailings with first and last name encoded
in Cyrillic, Greek or Chinese scripts. It goes one step further than
using "Latin based" char sets such as ISO-8859-2.

> I'm afraid, though, that the individual who posted that offensive
> comment is not going to "wake up"; at least not without medication.

I would not use wording you have decided to use but my feelings about
"the individual" seem to be similar based on *long* "previous experience"
:-)

--
[pl2en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
http://anfi.homeunix.net/

Re: non-us-ascii characters in your headers [Was: fetchmail and mda option]

am 21.04.2006 01:17:00 von Alan Connor

On comp.mail.misc, in <87vet3x4r6.fsf@anfi.homeunix.net>,
"Andrzej Adam Filip" wrote:

> Alan Connor writes:
>
>> On comp.mail.misc, in , "":
>>
>>

>> http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/README.offline>
>>
>> Don't use non-us-ascii characters in your headers!
>> ------------------------------------------------------------ --
>>
>> Don't use them at all except on groups where a different
>> character set is used by people 'speaking' a different
>> language that requires it. And then only in the body/article.
>> Alan
>
> Wake up to reality. For most of the people english is not not
> their native language. They have right to write theit first and
> last name *exactly* "as it is". UTF-8 is coming.

The U.S. is the force behind the Internet and English is the
Lingua Franca of the present age. The language of Business
and Technology.

Most of the people on the Internet speak English.

There should not be any problem with using us-ascii in the
headers except for silly people with ego problems.

I monitor a number of foreign language groups and rarely see
non-us-ascii characters in the headers.

>
> The family name in "From:" header we talk about was properly
> ISO-8859-2 encoded using quoted prinatable encoding [no 8 bit
> chars].
>
> P.S. I personally preffer ASCII *XOR* UTF-8.

Fine. Do what you want. But I don't read posts with non-us-ascii
characters in the headers (for one thing, they break a lot of
software/filters). And I am not alone in this decision by any
means.

Nor do I respond to articles on English groups that use them
in the bodies.

-------

The mda option in fetchmail is used to send the downloads to
someplace other than an MTA listening on port 25.

The line would typically read (to send the incoming mail
to procmail in this case):

and wants mda "/usr/bin/formail/ -s /usr/bin/procmail"

after the

is here

line.

-----

"Mark Crispin" has long been killfiled here. He wears a gag when
he is in my newsreader.

[Note: I don't read the articles of "Sam" or his numerous
sockpuppets or his 'friends', nor any responses to them, and
haven't for years. He follows me all over the Usenet, and I
still don't read his articles. This _really_ pisses him off.
.]

Alan

--
http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/contact.html
Other URLs of possible interest in my headers.

Re: non-us-ascii characters in your headers

am 21.04.2006 01:55:11 von Mark Crispin

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:
> I wanted to *clearly* show difference between "non English" postings
> in English using hierarchies (typically in German for comp.*) and
> preserving "original" version of first and last name.

We're in total agreement here.

Actually, there have been cases in which the person's English ability was
poor enough that I asked him to re-send his request in his native
language, which I then got expertly translated. There are some advantages
to working at a university... ;-)

> I have already seen postings/mailings with first and last name encoded
> in Cyrillic, Greek or Chinese scripts. It goes one step further than
> using "Latin based" char sets such as ISO-8859-2.

I agree. It's so much better that such postings are tagged with
MIME encoded-words rather than "just send 8-bits" which was the common
practice a decade ago!

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Re: non-us-ascii characters in your headers [Was: fetchmail and mdaoption]

am 21.04.2006 02:19:08 von Mark Crispin

Sadly, it is necessary once again to post a public technical rebuttal to
an Alan Connor message, lest some individual overseas use that message as
an example of "American racism".

The individual who posts as "Alan Connor" is mentally ill, and his
expressed opinions in no way reflect those of the general population of
the United States or the US Internet user community.

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Alan Connor wrote:
> The U.S. is the force behind the Internet and English is the
> Lingua Franca of the present age. The language of Business
> and Technology.

That attitude, although sometimes spoken in the 1970s and 1980s, had
become obsolete by the late 1980s. It suffered a major death-blow with
the introduction of MIME 15 years ago, and was finally declared dead and
buried with the publication of RFC 2130 a decade ago.

> Most of the people on the Internet speak English.

That is simply not true any longer, unless you strictly limit "the
Internet" to the multi-national forums such as newsgroups. There are
*gigantic* non-English Internet user communities that are more populous
than the entire United States.

> There should not be any problem with using us-ascii in the
> headers except for silly people with ego problems.

That makes the false assumption that every proper name in the world has a
reasonable representation using the 26 Latin alphabetics that exist in
ASCII. This is demonstrably not true in European languages (in which the
omission of diacriticals actually changes the spelling), much less
languages that use non-Latin scripts (e.g., Greek, Cyrillic, Hebrew,
Arabic, Han, Hangul, Kana, etc.)

> I monitor a number of foreign language groups and rarely see
> non-us-ascii characters in the headers.

I just surveyed a few of the fj.* (Japan) newsgroups. Only those which
are majority-foreigner, such as fj.life.in-japan, were predominately ASCII
in the headers. The fj.* groups which are predominately used by native
Japanese use Japanese characters in the headers.

> "Mark Crispin" has long been killfiled here. He wears a gag when
> he is in my newsreader.

I hope that remains the case.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Re: non-us-ascii characters in your headers

am 21.04.2006 02:20:50 von Andrzej Adam Filip

Mark Crispin writes:

> On Fri, 21 Apr 2006, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:
>> [...]
>> I have already seen postings/mailings with first and last name encoded
>> in Cyrillic, Greek or Chinese scripts. It goes one step further than
>> using "Latin based" char sets such as ISO-8859-2.
>
> I agree. It's so much better that such postings are tagged with MIME
> encoded-words rather than "just send 8-bits" which was the common
> practice a decade ago!

You are lucky. You have not seen periodic "encoding battles" fought in
pl.* hierarchy threads. Some "fighters" can not stand posts properly
encoded in UTF-8 instead of "tradition blessed" ISO-8859-2.

Miss-configured news readers turning quoted UTF-8 into "bushes" are pretty
common (they assume ISO-8859-2 no matter what MIME headers state).
Some portals offering web interface to usenet commit the same sin.

I see it pretty often as (so far) early adopter of UTF-8 in pl.*
hierarchy.

--
[pl2en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
http://anfi.homeunix.net/

Re: non-us-ascii characters in your headers

am 21.04.2006 02:44:38 von Mark Crispin

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:
> You are lucky. You have not seen periodic "encoding battles" fought in
> pl.* hierarchy threads. Some "fighters" can not stand posts properly
> encoded in UTF-8 instead of "tradition blessed" ISO-8859-2.

Interestingly, in spite of all "expert opinion", there turned out to be
surprisingly few complaints when a Japanese language email message is
transmitted in UTF-8 instead of "traditional blessed" ISO-2022-JP.

It's because most ISO-2022-JP savvy software is also UTF-8 savvy. I
suspect that much of the problem in North America and Europe is with older
software that was hacked from being ASCII-only to ISO-8859-[] only.

> Miss-configured news readers turning quoted UTF-8 into "bushes" are pretty
> common (they assume ISO-8859-2 no matter what MIME headers state).

Are you certain that this is a misconfiguration, as opposed to incomplete
implementations of i18n?

To be fair, the current release version of Pine is this way (although it's
much better than just a few versions ago). We hope, though, that the next
release version will fully support UTF-8; large hunks of code are being
rewritten. In addition, there are major extensions for Unicode support
coming in imap-2006.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Re: fetchmail and mda option

am 21.04.2006 04:11:32 von Garen Erdoisa

Kamil Joñca wrote:
> From my .fetchmailrc: (I want to pass to procmail servername and
> mailfolder)
> poll mail.megapolis.pl protocol IMAP user "kjonca" fetchall ssl
> folder Junk mda "/usr/bin/procmail -a megapolis -a Junk -d kjonca "
> folder Sent/stare mda "/usr/bin/procmail -a megapolis -a Sent/ -d
> kjonca"
> folder INBOX/listy/e mda "/usr/bin/procmail -a megapolis -a listy/e/
> -d kjonca "
> folder INBOX/listy/k mda "/usr/bin/procmail -a megapolis -a listy/k/
> -d kjonca "
> folder INBOX/listy/p mda "/usr/bin/procmail -a megapolis -a listy/p/
> -d kjonca "
>
>
> Unfortunately it looks like only last "mda" option is taking :( ie. for
> all folders is executing /usr/bin/procmail -a megapolis -a listy/p/ -d
> kjonca
> I know that I can write it as
> poll mail.megapolis.pl protocol IMAP user "kjonca" fetchall ssl
> folder Junk mda "/usr/bin/procmail -a megapolis -a Junk -d kjonca "
> user "kjonca" fetchall ssl folder Sent/stare mda "/usr/bin/procmail
> -a megapolis -a Sent/ -d kjonca"
> user "kjonca" fetchall ssl folder INBOX/listy/e mda
> "/usr/bin/procmail -a megapolis -a listy/e/ -d kjonca "
> user "kjonca" fetchall ssl folder INBOX/listy/k mda
> "/usr/bin/procmail -a megapolis -a listy/k/ -d kjonca "
> user "kjonca" fetchall ssl folder INBOX/listy/p mda
> "/usr/bin/procmail -a megapolis -a listy/p/ -d kjonca "
> but I want to open only one connection.
> KJ

Try this using a comma separated list of folder names:

poll mail.megapolis.pl protocol IMAP user "kjonca" fetchall ssl
folder Junk,Sent/stare,INBOX/listy/e,INBOX/listy/k,INBOX/listy/p mda
"/usr/bin/procmail -d kjonca "

Then use procmail to sort out what folders to drop them into locally.

--
Garen

Re: fetchmail and mda option

am 21.04.2006 07:57:49 von kjonca

Dnia Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:11:32 -0600,
osoba podpisana: Garen Erdoisa
napisa³a:
[...]
>
> Try this using a comma separated list of folder names:
>
> poll mail.megapolis.pl protocol IMAP user "kjonca" fetchall ssl
> folder Junk,Sent/stare,INBOX/listy/e,INBOX/listy/k,INBOX/listy/p mda
> "/usr/bin/procmail -d kjonca "
>
> Then use procmail to sort out what folders to drop them into locally.

But how can I distinguish from what folder on imap's server message
coming? Any posibiity to pass it's name to procmail ?

KJ

--
Rowery treningowe, sprzêt sportowy, si³ownie
http://strony.aster.pl/kjonca/index.xhtml#f4y
"#define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb))" - Shakespeare.

Re: fetchmail and mda option

am 21.04.2006 08:52:22 von Garen Erdoisa

Kamil Joñca wrote:
> Dnia Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:11:32 -0600,
> osoba podpisana: Garen Erdoisa
> napisa³a:
> [...]
>> Try this using a comma separated list of folder names:
>>
>> poll mail.megapolis.pl protocol IMAP user "kjonca" fetchall ssl
>> folder Junk,Sent/stare,INBOX/listy/e,INBOX/listy/k,INBOX/listy/p mda
>> "/usr/bin/procmail -d kjonca "
>>
>> Then use procmail to sort out what folders to drop them into locally.
>
> But how can I distinguish from what folder on imap's server message
> coming? Any posibiity to pass it's name to procmail ?

If you are using some automated means to sort incoming mail on your IMAP
server into folders there, you should be able to duplicate locally
whatever sorting algorithm you are using on the server using procmail
rules. If you have some way to tag the email itself on the IMAP server
by adding an

X-folder: foldername

header or something as the emails are filed, you could use that header
in your ${HOME}/.procmailrc to key on for deciding which local folders
to use.

If you are sorting mail manually on your IMAP server, then I don't know.

I don't know your situation, but if it were me, I'd just collect mail
from one folder on the IMAP server, then do all the processing locally
to decide where to file the emails so as to not duplicate efforts.

Otherwise, I suspect you'll be stuck with opening separate fetchmail
processes for each separate folder, which as you said already isn't what
you wanted.

--
Garen

Re: fetchmail and mda option

am 21.04.2006 10:30:54 von kjonca

Garen Erdoisa wrote:
[...]

> If you are using some automated means to sort incoming mail on your IMAP
> server into folders there, you should be able to duplicate locally
> whatever sorting algorithm you are using on the server using procmail
> rules.
Clear.

> If you have some way to tag the email itself on the IMAP server by adding an X-folder: foldername
Unfortunately not :(
>
[...]

>
> If you are sorting mail manually on your IMAP server, then I don't know.
I was afraid of that :-|

Thanks a lot.

KJ

Re: non-us-ascii characters in your headers

am 21.04.2006 11:39:01 von Andrzej Adam Filip

Mark Crispin writes:

> On Fri, 21 Apr 2006, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:
>> You are lucky. You have not seen periodic "encoding battles" fought in
>> pl.* hierarchy threads. Some "fighters" can not stand posts properly
>> encoded in UTF-8 instead of "tradition blessed" ISO-8859-2.
>
> Interestingly, in spite of all "expert opinion", there turned out to
> be surprisingly few complaints when a Japanese language email message
> is transmitted in UTF-8 instead of "traditional blessed" ISO-2022-JP.
>
> It's because most ISO-2022-JP savvy software is also UTF-8 savvy. I
> suspect that much of the problem in North America and Europe is with
> older software that was hacked from being ASCII-only to ISO-8859-[]
> only.
>
>> Miss-configured news readers turning quoted UTF-8 into "bushes" are pretty
>> common (they assume ISO-8859-2 no matter what MIME headers state).
>
> Are you certain that this is a misconfiguration, as opposed to
> incomplete implementations of i18n?

I am 90% certain. The cases I can most easily remember involve outlook
(in non tech pl.* groups).

Two most common miss-configuration for outlook:
1) non turning on MIME support
no MIME headers at all, "assumed" non ASCII content, 8 bit chars in
"Subject:" and "From:"
2) turning on ignoring char-set declared in MIME headers
[ even thunder-bird can be miss-configured this way ]

In most cases of 8 bit chars in subject/from outlook user is guilty.

I do not use outlook myself so I do not dare to be 100% sure that it is
miss-configuration in all cases :-) but I think MS chosen configuration
defaults create problems.

BTW For me a feature to convert unconverted UTF-8 quotes in non UTF-8
post (ASCII or ISO-8859-2) would be *VERY* handy.

> To be fair, the current release version of Pine is this way (although
> it's much better than just a few versions ago). We hope, though, that
> the next release version will fully support UTF-8; large hunks of code
> are being rewritten. In addition, there are major extensions for
> Unicode support coming in imap-2006.

The last subtle "non ASCII" problem I remember (from "pan"?):
Ignoring char-set declared in "From:" header when generating attribution
in replies ("X wrote:").

--
[pl2en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
http://anfi.homeunix.net/

Re: non-us-ascii characters in your headers

am 21.04.2006 14:10:55 von Alan Connor

On comp.mail.misc, in <87mzefx2gg.fsf@anfi.homeunix.net>, "Andrzej Adam Filip" wrote:

http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/README.offline>

Looks like we have a Polish troll on our hands.

I've killfiled all these aliases.

[Note: I don't read the articles of "Sam" or his numerous
sockpuppets or his 'friends', nor any responses to them, and
haven't for years. He follows me all over the Usenet, and I
still don't read his articles. This _really_ pisses him off.
.]

Alan

--
http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/contact.html
Other URLs of possible interest in my headers.

Re: non-us-ascii characters in your headers

am 21.04.2006 23:57:25 von Sam

This is a MIME GnuPG-signed message. If you see this text, it means that
your E-mail or Usenet software does not support MIME signed messages.
The Internet standard for MIME PGP messages, RFC 2015, was published in 1996.
To open this message correctly you will need to install E-mail or Usenet
software that supports modern Internet standards.

--=_mimegpg-commodore.email-scan.com-32275-1145656645-0002
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Usenet Beavis writes:

> On comp.mail.misc, in <87mzefx2gg.fsf@anfi.homeunix.net>, "Andrzej Adam Filip" wrote:
>
>

>
> Looks like we have my mental superior on our hands.

Big deal. That's not news. What would be news, though, is coming across
someone who is not your mental superior. That would be a special occasion,
indeed.

> I've killfiled all my remaining brain cells.

Poor Beavis. He hangs around here, all day long, totally incapable of
reading even a single message, because all of his brain cells have been
killfiled. He must be so lonely. Even Bigfoot's company is not enough to
brighten his day.

> [Note: it's not my fault that I'm a complete dumbass. I was dropped on my
> head as a child. See http://www.pearlgates.net/nanae/kooks/ac/ for
> more information]
>
> Beavis

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