BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

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Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

on 02 Jan 2007, something possessed Arnie to write:

> My wife has been running BlackIce on her computer (Windows) and about
> a month ago she started having troubles. CD burn errors, slow copying
> of files and general system slowdown. I checked the performance graph
> in Task Manager and the CPU usage was spiking from a few percent to
> 50%, up and down like a yoyo when the system was idle. I narrowed the
> culprit down to the firewall, BlackIce. When I disabled it's services
> and removed it from the startup folder everything was normal again.
> I've discovered that she can still use it although if the GUI is
> loaded (which puts an icon in the system tray) the spiking returns.
> Right-click on the icon and choose 'exit' and the spiking stops
> (although the BlackIce services are still running and hence the
> firewall is fully functional). Now a month later if you open the GUI
> the CPU usage starts spiking from a couple % up to 90%. It's getting
> worse. ISS (who produce BlackIce) tout themselves as the world's
> greatest security experts but this program (at least the GUI part of
> it which is minimal anyway) is behaving like a badly written piece of
> sh|t. Anyone got any ideas what is wrong? Or suggestions for a better
> firewall? I won't touch Norton junk (too intrusive, registry bloat
> etc.) and I had trouble with Zone Alarm years ago on Win98. When I
> uninstalled it, it trashed the registry on the way out.
> Thanks for any advice
>
> Arnie
>
You can Try Kerio Personal Firewall. It says it's Trial-ware, but after
the 30 days is up, you just lose some web-content filtering stuff
(adblocking, which I never really had to use anyway). It allows you to
set rules based not only on how programs access the Internet, but also
allows you to set custom rules for ports to block and leave open as well,
should you ever want/need to block or allow a certain port range. It
also can monitor your PC for changed programs, and alert you when a
program is trying to access another program on your PC (i.e. when you
click on a mailto link in your web-browser, the web browser will need to
communicate with some program on your PC). You can, of course, turn this
option off if you like.

Well, I hope you find something out there that will suite your needs.
Good luck.

Regards,

Will

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

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Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

Sebastian Gottschalk wrote:
> Arnie wrote:

>> Thanks for any advice
>

> Blah. What about getting a security concept first? Then installing such
> crapware would have never happened, not even been considered in first
> place.


;^}

So what _is_ your advice to the O.P. Seb' mate? Even I, who knows less
than you've forgotten, could have said the above!

Jim Ford

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

Jim Ford wrote:
> Sebastian Gottschalk wrote:
>
>> Arnie wrote:
>
>
>>> Thanks for any advice
>>
>>
>
>
>> Blah. What about getting a security concept first? Then installing such
>> crapware would have never happened, not even been considered in first
>> place.
>
>
>
> ;^}
>
> So what _is_ your advice to the O.P. Seb' mate? Even I, who knows less
> than you've forgotten, could have said the above!
>
> Jim Ford

So what is your take on it you lunatic, as I don't see anything coming
out of you, with your head firmly planted up Jack the Ripper El Capitan
William's ass? You're nothing but a lunatic nit picker follower.

You're another one that Death should have strangled you at birth with
your placenta, so that you would not have made out here to the Internet.

Death

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

Arnie wrote:
> My wife has been running BlackIce on her computer (Windows) and about a
> month ago she started having troubles. CD burn errors, slow copying of
> files and general system slowdown. I checked the performance graph in Task
> Manager and the CPU usage was spiking from a few percent to 50%, up and
> down like a yoyo when the system was idle. I narrowed the culprit down to
> the firewall, BlackIce. When I disabled it's services and removed it from
> the startup folder everything was normal again. I've discovered that she
> can still use it although if the GUI is loaded (which puts an icon in the
> system tray) the spiking returns. Right-click on the icon and choose
> 'exit' and the spiking stops (although the BlackIce services are still
> running and hence the firewall is fully functional). Now a month later if
> you open the GUI the CPU usage starts spiking from a couple % up to 90%.
> It's getting worse.
> ISS (who produce BlackIce) tout themselves as the world's greatest security
> experts but this program (at least the GUI part of it which is minimal
> anyway) is behaving like a badly written piece of sh|t.
> Anyone got any ideas what is wrong? Or suggestions for a better firewall?
> I won't touch Norton junk (too intrusive, registry bloat etc.) and I had
> trouble with Zone Alarm years ago on Win98. When I uninstalled it, it
> trashed the registry on the way out.
> Thanks for any advice
>
> Arnie

Why don't you call ISS about your problem with BI or send an email, as
there could be a solution.

You do know that you can go to MSconfig to the Start-up tab and disable
the BI GUI from running with the Windows O/S.

With the services still running for BI, which is the FW part of BI, you
can use VisualIce (free), use goggle, to view the log entries, which
will have the same information that would be displayed in the Intrusion
Detection screen of attacks in the BI GUI, which VI will have even more
information being displayed to you than the BI GUI screens, based on the
logs.

You can also set VisualIce to start up minimized, sound an alert, flash
its icon, down in the job trey, when an attack happens.

You have to enable BI's via it's GUI for logging to capture the logs
that VI will use.

You can damn near tell BI to do anything from the BI configuration files
and you don't need the BI GUI to do it. You need the BI GUI up only for
some type of configuration of BI visually, but you don't have to have
the BI GUI running all the time, with its icon sitting down there in the
job trey.

There is also an ISS forum where you can post questions about BI too,
for support.

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

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Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

Sebastian Gottschalk wrote:

>>> So what _is_ your advice to the O.P. Seb' mate? Even I, who knows less
>>> than you've forgotten, could have said the above!
>
> So, you seem to agree with my obvious finding that the real problem is a
> lack of a security concept, and the O.P. is just fuddling around with the
> conclusion drawn from not having any concept?

No, the _real_ problem is that no-one can get ever a straight answer
from Seb' Gottschalk!

Jim Ford

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

Jim Ford wrote:
> Sebastian Gottschalk wrote:
>
>>>> So what _is_ your advice to the O.P. Seb' mate? Even I, who knows
>>>> less than you've forgotten, could have said the above!
>>
>>
>> So, you seem to agree with my obvious finding that the real problem is a
>> lack of a security concept, and the O.P. is just fuddling around with the
>> conclusion drawn from not having any concept?
>
>
> No, the _real_ problem is that no-one can get ever a straight answer
> from Seb' Gottschalk!
>
> Jim Ford

No, the real problem here is with you and your lunacy nit picking and
whining.

I understand what the man is saying and can read between the lines as to
what he is saying. Are you that dense?

I use a PFW too when I am away from my network. Many of the features of
a PFW trying to protect you from you, like Application Control and
whatnot are just snake-oil.

Anything that runs with the O/S can be circumvented and defeated, just
like the O/S can have it happen to it.

That's the message that being put out that you can't seem to comprehend.


Death

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

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Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

Sebastian Gottschalk wrote:
> Death9 wrote:
>
>
>>I use a PFW too when I am away from my network. Many of the features of
>>a PFW trying to protect you from you, like Application Control and
>>whatnot are just snake-oil.
>
I am using one that has the one piece of snake-oil disable.
>
> Then why don't you use a serious host-based packet filter without all of
> this crap? Like Windows Firewall or Wipfw?

I don't view those as being any better than anything else with the
snake-oil turned off.
>
>
>>Anything that runs with the O/S can be circumvented and defeated,
>
>
> So? Please show me how to break out of the Java VM sandbox.

No one cares about breaking out of some Java VM sandbox. And I must say
that here is when the problem with you starts.
>
>
>>just like the O/S can have it happen to it.
>
>
> That's why someone should focus on hardening the OS, thus limiting the
> attack range and the achievable results of an attack.


Yeah, do you mean like removing the Client for MS Network, MS F&P off
the NIC or dial-up connection, shutdown unneeded services and programs
on the O/S and a general hardening of the O/S, things of that nature?

http://labmice.techtarget.com/articles/winxpsecuritychecklis t.htm

I have been coming to this NG for years and learned from the best, read
articles and books on securing the MS platform, and security in general.

I wouldn't say that I am in any league with those that make a living at
and neither are you.

You should treat others like you would like to be treated, as that's a
message that's coming back to you.

I am just the messenger.

Death

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

William wrote:

>You can Try Kerio Personal Firewall.

Thanks. I'll give it a try. I don't need the web filtering either. I
intend testing another firewall or two on different HDD with a drive
image.

Sebastian Gottschalk wrote:

>What about getting a security concept first?
(and also:)
>That's why someone should focus on hardening the OS, thus limiting the
>attack range and the achievable results of an attack.

I _can_ get some positive benefits from a PFW such as BI using App
control and IP blocking.
If you mean hardening the OS by disabling unused services, I shut down
all except 5 or 6 Windows services out of the ~50 or so. Just enough to
get connected. I've run Steve Gibson's (grc.com) tools on it and just
took it through his Shields UP! pages and Leak test. It passed all tests
except Port 113 and ICMP (pings). I blocked port 113 with BlackIce which
worked and found this manual:
BlackICE Advanced Administration Guide
http://documents.iss.net/literature/BlackICE/BI-AAG.pdf
which has info on editing BlackIce .ini files. You have to add a line to
stop pings being acknowledged.
Also found a thread from this NG from 2003:
http://groups.google.com.au/group/comp.security.firewalls/br owse_thread/t
hread/3c9832b40cc35f71/e984b91668531456%23e984b91668531456
which helped with the ICMP (ping) reject entry for firewall.ini
In fact the above thread was better than the manual.
After shutting down BlackIce and it's services I added this entry to
firewall.ini under the section [MANUAL ICMP ACCEPT] :
REJECT, 8:0, ICMP, 2001-10-15 00:01:00, PERPETUAL, 5000, MANUAL

And guess what? Here's the funny thing. I made sure my new entry, the
section header and the last char on last line of firewall.ini had manual
carriage returns and saved it. I fired up BlackIce again with the
intention of testing the ping blocking at Shields UP! and lo and behold
the CPU spiking had stopped. The edit and save on the firewall.ini must
have fixed it as the problem had nothing to do with pings. Before the
edit it wasn't yo-yo'ing anymore just flatout 100% CPU usage with no net
connection.
Anyway I tested the ping/ICMP entry at Shields UP! and got a perfect
score as well.
So all's good in the home computing world again. In a roundabout way I
fixed the problem and made a few improvements.

Thanks for all your replies and suggestions

Arnie

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

"Mr. Arnold" <"Mr. Arnold"@Arnold.COM> wrote in
news:BvCmh.5784$pQ3.1054@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> Arnie wrote:

>>...if you open the GUI the CPU usage starts spiking from a couple
>> % up to 90%. It's getting worse.

"Mr. Arnold" wrote:
>You do know...

Yep. I found that stopped the spiking while still leaving the services
running.

>You can also set VisualIce...

I actually have that but have not installed it. It may be good I'm very
wary of any 3rd party addons, plugins, extensions etc. especially for a
security program or programs that need to be secure eg. web browser etc.
All your efforts at 'hardening' what you've got could be rent asunder.
Maybe better to use a separate app for extra monitoring? I've got
Ethereal but haven't installed/used it yet.

>You can damn near tell BI to do anything from the BI configuration files

Now I've got the manual I'm on my way.
BlackICE Advanced Administration Guide
http://documents.iss.net/literature/BlackICE/BI-AAG.pdf

>...you don't have to have the BI GUI running all the time....

Yes, I discovered that and it was my initial fix for the problem. And now
I've fixed it completely thru sheer luck.

>There is also an ISS forum....

I haven't found it yet not from their site or google. A link would be
appreciated.
Thanks
Arnie

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

"Mr. Arnold" <"Mr. Arnold"@Arnold.COM> wrote in
news:BvCmh.5784$pQ3.1054@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> Arnie wrote:

>


sorry "Mr. Arnold" I forgot to swap ID's when I replied to you. See the
post from 'blah' (aka Arnie)

PS. I really would like the link to the ISS forum

Arnie

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

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Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

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Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

Sebastian Gottschalk wrote in
news:502469F1e9s5qU1@mid.dfncis.de:

> Arnie wrote:
>
>> William wrote:
>>
>>>You can Try Kerio Personal Firewall.
>>
>> Thanks. I'll give it a try.
>
> Can't you see the irony? It should be obvious. "Personal Firewall" is
> a well-known synonym for "crapware".

Maybe, but |
V
>
>> I _can_ get some positive benefits from a PFW such as BI using App
>> control
>
> Yes, intrusion detection. At best. Not outnumbering the negative
> influence on your system. No positive net benefit.

No, it's the exact opposite. Blocking applications from connecting to remote servers/machines. I get a
positive benefit. Phone home apps give me the shits but that's just me. I might be irrational but I
still love to whack em, turn em 'round and send them back to work with blood and snot running out of
their noses. Jesus! I'm starting to adopt the tone of this group. I'm not really like that.
And I have very few apps that do that, 1 or 2 sneaky litle bastards that used to go straight under the
FW but now they can't. Well maybe they still can but when they get out they can't find home. Yes, I'm
aware of the PFW's limitations (BI in this case). And that's not it's only weakness. But if it's not
malicious and not chewing up CPU cycles than until I find a better solution I'm happy for it to be doing
it's little bit. Hell, I only just got a guide on editing it's .ini files although I did completely
write it's ACTLCL.TXT file by hand (with a good txt editor using copy&paste and regex, I didn't type
much but it ended up 20KB). That's where it stores App Control network blocking settings. For some
reason whenever I added another app using the GUI it would drop some other previously blocked app off
the list. Strange and shitful behaviour but now that I wrote it myself it's holding the settings. Weird
but it's working. I thought that might be causing the CPU usage but obviously not as I've fixed that
another way (editing and saving the firewall.ini) Maybe I should copy all its files onto fresh sheets of
notepad and save them. Yes, it doesn't strike me as a very serious attempt at a security program with
such dumbass useless behaviour as above.

>
>> and IP blocking.
>
> Sorry, but that's bullshit. Automatic blocking is only good for
> shooting in your own foot, and nothing else.

No, it's good. Blocking specific IP's. Combined with the above (blocking the application) I might also
do a whois on the host name and block any other IP's they're using.

>
>> If you mean hardening the OS by disabling unused services, I shut
>> down all except 5 or 6 Windows services out of the ~50 or so.
>
> Then you should think and read again.

I'm happy to listen if you care to explain.

>
>> I've run Steve Gibson's (grc.com) tools on it and just
>> took it through his Shields UP! pages and Leak test. It passed all
>> tests except Port 113 and ICMP (pings). I blocked port 113 with
>> BlackIce
>
> Then you've proven that you have no clue whatsoever. You fucked up
> identd, you're going to fuck up ICMP, passing this "Shields Up" crap
> means you fucked up your network connection, and just thinking of
> taking those "Leak tests" shows that you don't understand your system
> at all.

Well, you say fucked up and I say fixed up. Your 'security concept' is different to mine. It may well
fuck up your machine for what you do with it but it has no effect for me besides a possibly minor
security gain. There are more restrictions you can apply to ICMP, I simply applied one to pass Gibson's
test. He knows more than I ever will so I'll take his word for it considering it's a pretty harmless
tweak.
I don't understand where you're coming from.
On the one hand you say a user should have a 'security concept' if they are serious about security. I
take that to mean they should have an idea, a goal and a plan to achieve it. If there was a universal
'security concept' then you could publish it. If you have one then post it. Otherwise a 'security
concept' is user specific. If I were running an office I wouldn't disable 'file & printer sharing' but
on a standalone machine I would.
What do I need 'identd' for? Quite likely I never will so I'm happy it's off. If I ever need it I can
turn it on. And I'm moving ahead with _my_ 'security concept'. I don't even have Print Spooler running,
I turn it on when I want to print.
"identd (identification protocol) is pointless and potentially dangerous":
http://www.clock.org/~fair/opinion/identd.html
If you're an IRC user (which I am not) then you probably want to leave it alone.
"IRC Connection Problems":
http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/networks/connectprob.html

>
>> So all's good in the home computing world again.
>
> No. Just in your illusionary world. As you already stated, technically
> your system is now a total mess.
>

No, it's better now. I had a problem and I fixed it (the CPU usage). And I moved ahead a couple of
points with _my_ 'security concept' in the meantime.

Arnie

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

Sebastian Gottschalk wrote:
> Death9 wrote:
>
>
>>Sebastian Gottschalk wrote:
>>
>>>Death9 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I use a PFW too when I am away from my network. Many of the features of
>>>>a PFW trying to protect you from you, like Application Control and
>>>>whatnot are just snake-oil.
>>>
>>I am using one that has the one piece of snake-oil disable.
>>
>>>Then why don't you use a serious host-based packet filter without all of
>>>this crap? Like Windows Firewall or Wipfw?
>>
>>I don't view those as being any better than anything else with the
>>snake-oil turned off.
>
>
> Please differ between "turned off" and "disabled". Even when "turned off",
> it's not "disabled" and keeps on fucking up your computer, introducing
> security holes and all kinds of problems.

Why don't you come with the reasons as to why, instead of making a claim?

If it's disabled it's not running. If I unplug a fan it's disabled,
it's off and it's not running, until such time someone plugs it back in
to the electric wall socket.

You start explaining your reasons as to why this and not that.
>
> Anyway, even the supposedly serious parts (the packet filter, and... what
> else?) are total crap.

Everyone has an opinion your opinion is just a dime a dozen like
everyone one else. And besides that, your beloved XP FW that can have
holes punched in it by an application and it's no bed of roses.
>
>
>>>>Anything that runs with the O/S can be circumvented and defeated,
>>>
>>>So? Please show me how to break out of the Java VM sandbox.
>>
>>No one cares about breaking out of some Java VM sandbox. And I must say
>>that here is when the problem with you starts.
>
>
> You were claiming that everything that runs on the O/S can be
> circumvented/defeated. The Java VM runs on the O/S. Now, show me how to
> circumvent it.

I should have been there to strangle you as well at birth. Who or what
you think you are you're not that. No one out here on the Internet is
going to dance to your tune here, partner. And there is a big difference
between *anything* and *everything* or can you NOT comprehend that.


>
> Or what else do you mean? It something runs in a higher security context as
> a service of the O/S, it can't be trivially circumvented either.

No one said it could. However, programs are written by fallible Human
Beings and nothing we do is infallible, nothing, but maybe, you're
Superman with a Superman computer, running Superman software.

Oh, that's Linux and Linux users.

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

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Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

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Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

Stop posting, as you're boring Death to death with this. You do this all
the time, which is you start going to left field and off the deep-end
with security babbling.

You can't help anyone, but you will sure as Hell babble it.

You'll do best in a Linux NG as they like to nit pick, bicker and lip
service each other, about what they know. I have seen it.

Here I am trying to stand up for you, as you got no guts, and you start
psycho posting to me going off, man oh man.

What's wrong with you? Because a sure as the Sun comes up in the morning
and the Moon comes out at night, there is something wrong with you.

You can go hang yourself on Death's tree and put yourself out of your
misery.

Man oh man, I didn't want to turn on you, but you gave me no choice.

Death

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

blah wrote:
> "Mr. Arnold" <"Mr. Arnold"@Arnold.COM> wrote in
> news:BvCmh.5784$pQ3.1054@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
>
>>Arnie wrote:
>
>
>
>>>...if you open the GUI the CPU usage starts spiking from a couple
>>>% up to 90%. It's getting worse.
>
>
> "Mr. Arnold" wrote:
>
>>You do know...
>
>
> Yep. I found that stopped the spiking while still leaving the services
> running.
>
>
>>You can also set VisualIce...
>
>
> I actually have that but have not installed it. It may be good I'm very
> wary of any 3rd party addons, plugins, extensions etc. especially for a
> security program or programs that need to be secure eg. web browser etc.
> All your efforts at 'hardening' what you've got could be rent asunder.
> Maybe better to use a separate app for extra monitoring? I've got
> Ethereal but haven't installed/used it yet.

What are you talking about? It's a log viewing utility that allows you
to view the BI logs in real time, gives better information than any
screen you're looking at in BI and is a stand alone application, with
some nice features. It has nothing to do with the BI application, other
than to view the BI logs in real time

It's just like Wallwatcher which is another log utility and standalone
application for routers and FW appliances. It gives better information
on the events that are happening with the device, than can be done in
viewing the Admin screens of the device. A the device such as router
broadcasts the log information over the LAN in real time to a machine
that has WW running.

http://www.sonic.net/wallwatcher/

WW is just an example.

>
>
>>You can damn near tell BI to do anything from the BI configuration files
>
>
> Now I've got the manual I'm on my way.
> BlackICE Advanced Administration Guide
> http://documents.iss.net/literature/BlackICE/BI-AAG.pdf

There is also the ISS Knowledge base that you can get to via the BI UI
and I think VI when looking at log information.

>
>
>>...you don't have to have the BI GUI running all the time....
>
>
> Yes, I discovered that and it was my initial fix for the problem. And now
> I've fixed it completely thru sheer luck.
>
>
>>There is also an ISS forum....
>
>
> I haven't found it yet not from their site or google. A link would be
> appreciated.

https://atla-mm1.iss.net/mailman/listinfo/issforum

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

It's nice to get a true expert on computers other than myself on this
newsgroup. A lot of these other people on this newsgroup lead on like they know
stuff and know what they're talking about. Just about all of them are afraid of
their own shadow. They have this secret firewall phobia where they're always
looking over their shoulder or monitoring the world's atmospheric conditions 24
hours a day so they don't go outside on the wrong day and catch a cold. I get
an eerie feeling every time i'm on this newsgroup. I remember people saying
fosi trashed my computer and it was all because of that BlackIce shit.

Arnie wrote:

> My wife has been running BlackIce on her computer (Windows) and about a
> month ago she started having troubles. CD burn errors, slow copying of
> files and general system slowdown. I checked the performance graph in Task
> Manager and the CPU usage was spiking from a few percent to 50%, up and
> down like a yoyo when the system was idle. I narrowed the culprit down to
> the firewall, BlackIce. When I disabled it's services and removed it from
> the startup folder everything was normal again. I've discovered that she
> can still use it although if the GUI is loaded (which puts an icon in the
> system tray) the spiking returns. Right-click on the icon and choose
> 'exit' and the spiking stops (although the BlackIce services are still
> running and hence the firewall is fully functional). Now a month later if
> you open the GUI the CPU usage starts spiking from a couple % up to 90%.
> It's getting worse.
> ISS (who produce BlackIce) tout themselves as the world's greatest security
> experts but this program (at least the GUI part of it which is minimal
> anyway) is behaving like a badly written piece of sh|t.
> Anyone got any ideas what is wrong? Or suggestions for a better firewall?
> I won't touch Norton junk (too intrusive, registry bloat etc.) and I had
> trouble with Zone Alarm years ago on Win98. When I uninstalled it, it
> trashed the registry on the way out.
> Thanks for any advice
>
> Arnie

Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

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Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

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Re: BlackIce firewall from ISS - Is it a POS?

Tony wrote:
> It's nice to get a true expert on computers other than myself on this
> newsgroup. A lot of these other people on this newsgroup lead on like they know
> stuff and know what they're talking about. Just about all of them are afraid of
> their own shadow. They have this secret firewall phobia where they're always
> looking over their shoulder or monitoring the world's atmospheric conditions 24
> hours a day so they don't go outside on the wrong day and catch a cold. I get
> an eerie feeling every time i'm on this newsgroup. I remember people saying
> fosi trashed my computer and it was all because of that BlackIce shit.
>

You need to go back and look at the history of ZA that you're using as
it's no piece of cake.

And about your god Gibson that you worship and Leatktest, here is a
little tip for you.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gibson+sucks&btnG=Googl e+Search

All the old boy did was load your computer up with a lot of snake-oil
trying to protect *you* from *you*.

Death