[PROPOSAL] Create dev@jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..

Hi everyone,

For various reasons there are a couple of projects at Jakarta that currently don't have any
development community. I like these projects to have dev discussion move to dev@jakarta.apache.org,
so it is easier for us to give oversight and guide newbies to learn the Apache way.
The initial projects I have in mind are : oro, regexp and ecs (others are welcome too btw).

This idea sparked from 1) my thread about reviving inactive projects 2) the thread on ecs-user on
who is still using ECS and looking at the content it could very well be that some people will start
sending patches in the near future.

The strength of this list should be is that with a lot of hands the chance that nothing happens when
there is activity is minimized. If someone has an hour to spare, it could very well be useful to
apply a patch and mentor people.

I would kind of expect that every PMC member is also subscribed to this list (in the same way it is
kind of expected that you are subscribed to general), but as always cannot force anyone ;)

Since I don't like to extend the scope of the general list, I prefer dev discussion not to take
place there.

Thoughts ?

Mvgr,
Martin

Re: [PROPOSAL] Create dev@jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..

In message <45E9D873.5000705@mvdb.net>, Martin van den Bemt writes:
>The strength of this list should be is that with a lot of hands the chance tha
>t nothing happens when
>there is activity is minimized. If someone has an hour to spare, it could very
> well be useful to
>apply a patch and mentor people.

Vadim has regexp covered and I have oro covered as far as maintenance
requests go, but no, I don't think either project merits its own
separate -dev and -user lists anymore. The trick is getting users who
want new features (as opposed to maintenance like bug fixing) to contribute
new features instead of always expecting the maintainers to add them
(e.g., Commons Net has been pretty successful in attracting user
contributed features). But regexp and oro are special cases which will
likely see no new features in the future, having been rendered obsolete
by standardization of the functionality they provide in the Java core api.

>Since I don't like to extend the scope of the general list, I prefer dev discu
>ssion not to take
>place there.
>
>Thoughts ?

As long as user traffic can go to general, it sounds okay. Most, if not all,
activity will be triggered by users (who won't be subscribed to dev), so
I'd think at least some threads should be permitted to start on general
and then migrate to dev if there is follow-on development related discussion.

daniel

Re: [PROPOSAL] Create dev@jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..

Daniel F. Savarese wrote:
> In message <45E9D873.5000705@mvdb.net>, Martin van den Bemt writes:
>> The strength of this list should be is that with a lot of hands the chance tha
>> t nothing happens when
>> there is activity is minimized. If someone has an hour to spare, it could very
>> well be useful to
>> apply a patch and mentor people.
>
> Vadim has regexp covered and I have oro covered as far as maintenance
> requests go, but no, I don't think either project merits its own
> separate -dev and -user lists anymore. The trick is getting users who
> want new features (as opposed to maintenance like bug fixing) to contribute
> new features instead of always expecting the maintainers to add them
> (e.g., Commons Net has been pretty successful in attracting user
> contributed features). But regexp and oro are special cases which will
> likely see no new features in the future, having been rendered obsolete
> by standardization of the functionality they provide in the Java core api.

Good to hear it is covered.. So little happening atm that I didn't notice it :)

>
>> Since I don't like to extend the scope of the general list, I prefer dev discu
>> ssion not to take
>> place there.
>>
>> Thoughts ?
>
> As long as user traffic can go to general, it sounds okay. Most, if not all,
> activity will be triggered by users (who won't be subscribed to dev), so
> I'd think at least some threads should be permitted to start on general
> and then migrate to dev if there is follow-on development related discussion.
>

Maybe a user@jakarta.apache.org. I see general as being the list for jakarta wide discussions and
not so much a list of asking specific questions about components..

Mvgr,
Martin

Re: [PROPOSAL] Create dev@jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..

I think it is a bad idea. Either a project is alive or it is dead and
most of the dead are not coming back. The site, the project and
everything else should reflect this.

I suggest that:

1. ECS
2. ORO
3. Regexp
4. Alexandria (already does basically)

all have a page that looks like this one:
http://avalon.apache.org/closed.html

Stating that the projects are dead and state what things have taken
their place and provide links. There is
no need for an artificial "dev" list or "users" list. Just close the
lists. (If you disagree look at the list archive for
each over the last 6 months and see if you REALLY disagree in more than
THEORY).

-Andy

Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>
> Maybe a user@jakarta.apache.org. I see general as being the list for jakarta wide discussions and
> not so much a list of asking specific questions about components..
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>


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RE: [PROPOSAL] Create dev@jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..

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We aren't related, but I agree with Andy.

Michael Oliver

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@buni.org]
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 3:17 PM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Create dev@jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..

I think it is a bad idea. Either a project is alive or it is dead and most
of the dead are not coming back. The site, the project and everything else
should reflect this.

I suggest that:

1. ECS
2. ORO
3. Regexp
4. Alexandria (already does basically)

all have a page that looks like this one:
http://avalon.apache.org/closed.html

Stating that the projects are dead and state what things have taken their
place and provide links. There is no need for an artificial "dev" list or
"users" list. Just close the lists. (If you disagree look at the list
archive for each over the last 6 months and see if you REALLY disagree in
more than THEORY).

-Andy

Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>
> Maybe a user@jakarta.apache.org. I see general as being the list for
> jakarta wide discussions and not so much a list of asking specific
questions about components..
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>


--
No PST Files Ever Again
Buni Meldware Communication Suite
Email, Calendaring, ease of configuration/administration http://buni.org


------------------------------------------------------------ ---------
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For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Create dev@jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..

Whoa...my uncle is back from the dead.

-Andy

Michael Oliver wrote:
>
> We aren't related, but I agree with Andy.
>
> Michael Oliver
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@buni.org]
> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 3:17 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Create dev@jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..
>
> I think it is a bad idea. Either a project is alive or it is dead and most
> of the dead are not coming back. The site, the project and everything else
> should reflect this.
>
> I suggest that:
>
> 1. ECS
> 2. ORO
> 3. Regexp
> 4. Alexandria (already does basically)
>
> all have a page that looks like this one:
> http://avalon.apache.org/closed.html
>
> Stating that the projects are dead and state what things have taken their
> place and provide links. There is no need for an artificial "dev" list or
> "users" list. Just close the lists. (If you disagree look at the list
> archive for each over the last 6 months and see if you REALLY disagree in
> more than THEORY).
>
> -Andy
>
> Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>
>> Maybe a user@jakarta.apache.org. I see general as being the list for
>> jakarta wide discussions and not so much a list of asking specific
>>
> questions about components..
>
>> Mvgr,
>> Martin
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> No PST Files Ever Again
> Buni Meldware Communication Suite
> Email, Calendaring, ease of configuration/administration http://buni.org
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org


--
No PST Files Ever Again
Buni Meldware Communication Suite
Email, Calendaring, ease of configuration/administration
http://buni.org

Re: [PROPOSAL] Create dev@jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> I think it is a bad idea. Either a project is alive or it is dead and
> most of the dead are not coming back. The site, the project and
> everything else should reflect this.
>
> I suggest that:
>
> 1. ECS
> 2. ORO
> 3. Regexp


> 4. Alexandria (already does basically)

Was closed down about a year ago.


>
> all have a page that looks like this one:
> http://avalon.apache.org/closed.html
>
> Stating that the projects are dead and state what things have taken
> their place and provide links. There is
> no need for an artificial "dev" list or "users" list. Just close the
> lists. (If you disagree look at the list archive for
> each over the last 6 months and see if you REALLY disagree in more than
> THEORY).

I know how the lists look like, I am subscribed to all Jakarta lists (bugzilla is the most active
developer on these lists ;). These projects may be dead currently from a developer perspective
(ignoring Daniels mail here for a moment), but hardly from a user perspective. And there is
currently talk amongst users on eg ecs to potentially start activity. I like that to get more
visibility and opportunity, which is now "hidden" in the ecs lists.
Also I like the message on a website to contain something more than just the message "this project
is dead" with some links. I rather state how people can get active on these projects again and I
like to point them to a central dev list, instead a (potentially) forgotten dev list.

When you want to close down the user list, should we point people to the general list for their
support questions (which doesn't happen often, but it happens) ?

Mvgr,
Martin

Re: [PROPOSAL] Create dev@jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..

In message <45EA01F9.6070901@buni.org>, "Andrew C. Oliver" writes:
>lists. (If you disagree look at the list archive for
>each over the last 6 months and see if you REALLY disagree in more than
>THEORY).

At least for oro, some Linux distributions continue to ship it as part of
their core packages. For example, Fedora Core 4, 5, and 6 all included
it and 7 will include it as well. That's millions of real installations.
It would be negligent to give the impression that Apache will no longer
support the software should maintenance requests be made when there are
in fact committers dedicated to doing the work. No, there haven't been
any bug reports for oro for years and I don't know why it ships with
Linux distributions, but it does and until it doesn't, it's not a
"dead" project. There's no need for project-specific mailing lists
anymore, but I'm -1 on putting up a "closed" page for any project
with a user base that continues to require support and for which we
are able to provide support. Users do need to be directed somewhere
for support and I don't care if that's general@ or some other list
as long as there's an avenue for providing that support.

daniel

Re: [PROPOSAL] Create dev@jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..

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Daniel F. Savarese schrieb:
> In message <45EA01F9.6070901@buni.org>, "Andrew C. Oliver" writes:
> =20
>> lists. (If you disagree look at the list archive for
>> each over the last 6 months and see if you REALLY disagree in more tha=
n=20
>> THEORY).
>> =20
>
> At least for oro, some Linux distributions continue to ship it as part =
of
> their core packages. For example, Fedora Core 4, 5, and 6 all included=

> it and 7 will include it as well. That's millions of real installation=
s.
> It would be negligent to give the impression that Apache will no longer=

> support the software should maintenance requests be made when there are=

> in fact committers dedicated to doing the work. No, there haven't been=

> any bug reports for oro for years and I don't know why it ships with
> Linux distributions, but it does and until it doesn't, it's not a
> "dead" project. There's no need for project-specific mailing lists
> anymore, but I'm -1 on putting up a "closed" page for any project
> with a user base that continues to require support and for which we
> are able to provide support. Users do need to be directed somewhere
> for support and I don't care if that's general@ or some other list
> as long as there's an avenue for providing that support.

I strogly agree with Daniel. Even if there are no ongoing activities on
a project, we should never, NEVER call it "dead" or give it any other
attributation with a negative tone. "Dormant" also has negative
implications. "Mature" would be fine.

Best regards
Rainer Klute

Rainer Klute IT-Consulting GmbH
Dipl.-Inform.
Rainer Klute E-Mail: klute@rainer-klute.de
Körner Grund 24 Telefon: +49 172 2324824
D-44143 Dortmund Telefax: +49 231 5349423

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Create dev@jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..

On 04/03/07, Rainer Klute wrote:
> Daniel F. Savarese schrieb:
> > In message <45EA01F9.6070901@buni.org>, "Andrew C. Oliver" writes:
> >
> >> lists. (If you disagree look at the list archive for
> >> each over the last 6 months and see if you REALLY disagree in more than
> >> THEORY).
> >>
> >
> > At least for oro, some Linux distributions continue to ship it as part of
> > their core packages. For example, Fedora Core 4, 5, and 6 all included
> > it and 7 will include it as well. That's millions of real installations.



There are also packages and applications (e.g. JMeter) which use ORO
and which are still active. Same applies to them.

> I strogly agree with Daniel. Even if there are no ongoing activities on
> a project, we should never, NEVER call it "dead" or give it any other
> attributation with a negative tone. "Dormant" also has negative
> implications. "Mature" would be fine.

+1

And/or "Stable".

Just not Retired or Pensioned off or Redundant or past-it ;-)

S///

RE: [PROPOSAL] Create dev@jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..

Rainer Klute wrote on Sunday, March 04, 2007 7:49 AM:

> Daniel F. Savarese schrieb:
>> In message <45EA01F9.6070901@buni.org>, "Andrew C. Oliver" writes:
>>=20
>>> lists. (If you disagree look at the list archive for
>>> each over the last 6 months and see if you REALLY disagree in more
>>> than THEORY).=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> At least for oro, some Linux distributions continue to ship it as
>> part of their core packages. For example, Fedora Core 4, 5, and 6
>> all included it and 7 will include it as well. That's millions of
>> real installations. It would be negligent to give the impression
>> that Apache will no longer support the software should maintenance
>> requests be made when there are in fact committers dedicated to
>> doing the work. No, there haven't been any bug reports for oro for
>> years and I don't know why it ships with Linux distributions, but it
>> does and until it doesn't, it's not a "dead" project. There's no
>> need for project-specific mailing lists anymore, but I'm -1 on
>> putting up a "closed" page for any project with a user base that
>> continues to require support and for which we are able to provide
>> support. Users do need to be directed somewhere for support and I
>> don't care if that's general@ or some other list as long as there's
>> an avenue for providing that support.=20

+1
=20
> I strogly agree with Daniel. Even if there are no ongoing
> activities on
> a project, we should never, NEVER call it "dead" or give it any other
> attributation with a negative tone. "Dormant" also has negative
> implications. "Mature" would be fine.

"Maintenance mode" - it implies that there is not much activity, but =
bugs get addressed. Additionally it has not that unfortunate touch of =
final i.e. new functionality/refactoring may happen if enough interested =
peaople work together.

- Jörg