Hi,
I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher wants
us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just wondering
why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
Thanks
"Woody Dawson"
news:2Cn0i.39$SI1.12@newsfe06.lga...
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher
> wants us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just
> wondering why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
You'll probably learn more.
- Oliver
Woody Dawson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher wants
> us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just wondering
> why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
Because tools tend to produce bad code, especially if you want to do
something complicated, and if you don't know what the code is supposed
to look like or the difference between good code and bad code, you'll be
able to generate pages all day but then not be able to fix what's wrong.
You also won't be able to do anything that's beyond the tool's capabilities.
Woody Dawson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher wants
> us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just wondering
> why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
As you will need to be able to fix the HTML-mess that all the tools does, if
you don't know how HTML really works, then how can you fix bad designed code
from a tool?
--
//Aho
Woody Dawson wrote:
>
> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher wants
> us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just wondering
> why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
If you want to learn more, more specifically how to do things The Right
Way, hand-coding is the best way to go. I applaud your instructor for
teaching this method.
However, there are much better general purpose editors than Notepad. My
personal favorite is Crimson Editor. It has a tabbed interface, syntax
highlighting, extended search and other useful features.
http://www.crimsoneditor.com
--
Berg
"Woody Dawson"
news:2Cn0i.39$SI1.12@newsfe06.lga...
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher
> wants us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just
> wondering why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
>
>
> Thanks
As a newcomer, you may not be familiar with the term "WYSIWYG" yet. It means
"What You See Is What You Get. FrontPage is one of several programs
considered "WYSIWYG". However, the term is often inaccurate because your
results can be quite unexpected and the volume of extraneous code added by
the program makes debugging a nightmare for even an experienced developer.
That is why it is very important for anyone new to Web design to start by
learning the raw HTML. Besides, WYSIWYG's can be frustrating to the point of
making you want to give up all together, and I'm sure your instructor
doesn't want to see that happen to any of his protégés.
Once you have learned to develop using raw code, you can try FrontPage
again... but I'll bet you'll hate it by then.
Personally, I love Homesite plus, sort of Notepad on steroids, probably
because it works so well with ColdFusion, but it doesn't have much for CSS
so I've had to create a lot of snippets, little sections of code that I can
paste into a document when needed. There are a lot of handy environments for
increasing your efficiency though. So learn HTML first, then go shopping for
your own personal favorite environment.
And avoid WYSIWYG's like they were a plague.
Good luck!
El
Woody Dawson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher wants
> us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just wondering
> why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
So you'll learn something.
Because FP sucks.
Now go do your homework.
--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
"Woody Dawson"
> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher wants
> us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just wondering
> why do it this way?
For the same reason you start learning math with pencil and paper, not with a
calculator.
> Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
Maybe, but it wouldn't teach you anything about HTML.
sherm--
--
Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
In article <2Cn0i.39$SI1.12@newsfe06.lga>,
"Woody Dawson"
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher wants
> us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just wondering
> why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
>
In most airforces, they begin training with recruits on the
ground where they cannot kill themselves or others.
The reason your teacher is doing this is - at the very least -
because you won't know what can go wrong with Frontpage until you
can get by without it.
--
dorayme
On 2007-05-09, dorayme
> In article <2Cn0i.39$SI1.12@newsfe06.lga>,
> "Woody Dawson"
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher wants
>> us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just wondering
>> why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
>>
>
> In most airforces, they begin training with recruits on the
> ground where they cannot kill themselves or others.
>
> The reason your teacher is doing this is - at the very least -
> because you won't know what can go wrong with Frontpage until you
> can get by without it.
Some of these analogies imply that once the novice has found his HTML
legs he can safely go back to using Frontpage. But no-one does that,
they just graduate from notepad to a better text editor. The only people
who use Frontpage are novices who don't know better.
On May 10, 3:08 am, Ben C
> On 2007-05-09, dorayme
> > In article <2Cn0i.39$SI1...@newsfe06.lga>,
> > "Woody Dawson"
>
> >> Hi,
>
> >> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher wants
> >> us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just wondering
> >> why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
>
> > In most airforces, they begin training with recruits on the
> > ground where they cannot kill themselves or others.
>
> > The reason your teacher is doing this is - at the very least -
> > because you won't know what can go wrong with Frontpage until you
> > can get by without it.
>
> Some of these analogies imply that once the novice has found his HTML
> legs he can safely go back to using Frontpage. But no-one does that,
> they just graduate from notepad to a better text editor. The only people
> who use Frontpage are novices who don't know better.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is patently false. Yes... As a novice, I used Frontpage to create
my webpages, exclusively. But, I also was curious enough about HTML to
learn it, by reading various sites, postings, etc., and learn what FP
was adding that shouldn't be there. That was 10 years ago.
I still use FP, but am very careful about what it does to the source,
removing anything (except in forms, which I haven't taken the time to
learn) that FP adds extraniously, or adding what it doesn't. I set it
up so it will create most of the HTML as I want to see it. I use it to
create my template, switching between all the tabs - Normal (where
most of the page is created), HTML (or SOURCE, if you will, where I
edit the HTML that DOESN'T do what I want it to), and Preview (which
shows the page in a version of IE.) I check it in FF and I check it
directly in IE (currently v7) if it's a new layout, to make sure it
will work for the majority of internet users. I also run the CSS and
HTML through the validaters to make sure they conform. (Most pages do
so, unless I've cut-and-pasted from an email - to show examples - or
have created a form.) I then use FP to publish the changed pages - It
modifies all links to the online version for me.
Now that I have my site up and running cleanly, I use FP to create new
pages, using stripped down versions of various pages (templates), edit
pages that link them, and publish the new and updated pages.
I DO understand the "text only" alternative, but would think a WYSIWYG
would be enormously helpful in creating prototype and example pages
(templates), THEN use the "direct HTML editing" of those pages, if you
insist. AND, you are correct in that WYSIWYG editors (all of them)
will add code, if you aren't careful, that isn't needed, or will leave
out tags you DO need for validations.
If you learned text-based editing, and are happy doing it that way,
more power to you, but DO NOT claim that WYSIWYG editors (of which FP
is only one) are ONLY used by "novices who don't know better."
And the paragraph about knowing what can go wrong with them by
learning HTML by using a text editor is correct. Learn the correct way
to do it, then you can play around with WYS... editors, see what each
of them do wrong, and make an informed choice.
As it is, I started with FP 10 years ago, and am still using it. I'm
happy using it the way I do, and am sure, if required by a permanent
position somewhere, I could learn any other editor, WYS, text, or
whatever, based on what I've learned using it.
Am I an expert? No... There's a lot of things I would like to learn
(mostly having to do with PROGRAMMING for the web)... But, I am also
nowhere near a Novice.
BDBS
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed bigdaddybs
writing in news:1178784422.180329.272100@e51g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
> I DO understand the "text only" alternative, but would think a WYSIWYG
> would be enormously helpful in creating prototype and example pages
> (templates), THEN use the "direct HTML editing" of those pages, if you
> insist. AND, you are correct in that WYSIWYG editors (all of them)
> will add code, if you aren't careful, that isn't needed, or will leave
> out tags you DO need for validations.
>
>
Typical Template for me (I do a lot of ASP)
<% option explicit
thispage = "Name of the page" 'name of the page
thisurl = "nameofpage.asp" 'actual url
%>
--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
In article
Ben C
> On 2007-05-09, dorayme
> > In article <2Cn0i.39$SI1.12@newsfe06.lga>,
> > "Woody Dawson"
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher
> >> wants
> >> us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just wondering
> >> why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
> >>
> >
> > In most airforces, they begin training with recruits on the
> > ground where they cannot kill themselves or others.
> >
> > The reason your teacher is doing this is - at the very least -
> > because you won't know what can go wrong with Frontpage until you
> > can get by without it.
>
> Some of these analogies imply that once the novice has found his HTML
> legs he can safely go back to using Frontpage. But no-one does that,
> they just graduate from notepad to a better text editor. The only people
> who use Frontpage are novices who don't know better.
Ssshhhh! The idea is not to frighten the horses. To talk all
positive like. Not to be too strident and scare him/her off. So
one says stuff like the above. But simple inspection of the logic
will reveal that if in order to use A well, you need to be able
to do without A at all, it will become evident that one needs a
pretty good reason to go back to use A. In the case of Frontpage,
I am not certain there is a good reason but perhaps this is
unfair. I have no idea about Frontpage really: there are people,
I know some, who are really very good at css and html but find
that the use of things like Dreamweaver an aid to their
construction of a new and big site.
--
dorayme
On 2007-05-10, bigdaddybs
> On May 10, 3:08 am, Ben C
>> On 2007-05-09, dorayme
>> > In article <2Cn0i.39$SI1...@newsfe06.lga>,
>> > "Woody Dawson"
>>
>> >> Hi,
>>
>> >> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher wants
>> >> us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just wondering
>> >> why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
>>
>> > In most airforces, they begin training with recruits on the
>> > ground where they cannot kill themselves or others.
>>
>> > The reason your teacher is doing this is - at the very least -
>> > because you won't know what can go wrong with Frontpage until you
>> > can get by without it.
>>
>> Some of these analogies imply that once the novice has found his HTML
>> legs he can safely go back to using Frontpage. But no-one does that,
>> they just graduate from notepad to a better text editor. The only people
>> who use Frontpage are novices who don't know better.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> This is patently false. Yes... As a novice, I used Frontpage to create
> my webpages, exclusively. But, I also was curious enough about HTML to
> learn it, by reading various sites, postings, etc., and learn what FP
> was adding that shouldn't be there. That was 10 years ago.
>
> I still use FP, but am very careful about what it does to the source,
> removing anything (except in forms, which I haven't taken the time to
> learn) that FP adds extraniously, or adding what it doesn't. I set it
> up so it will create most of the HTML as I want to see it. I use it to
> create my template, switching between all the tabs - Normal (where
> most of the page is created), HTML (or SOURCE, if you will, where I
> edit the HTML that DOESN'T do what I want it to), and Preview (which
> shows the page in a version of IE.) I check it in FF and I check it
> directly in IE (currently v7) if it's a new layout, to make sure it
> will work for the majority of internet users. I also run the CSS and
> HTML through the validaters to make sure they conform. (Most pages do
> so, unless I've cut-and-pasted from an email - to show examples - or
> have created a form.) I then use FP to publish the changed pages - It
> modifies all links to the online version for me.
>
> Now that I have my site up and running cleanly, I use FP to create new
> pages, using stripped down versions of various pages (templates), edit
> pages that link them, and publish the new and updated pages.
>
> I DO understand the "text only" alternative, but would think a WYSIWYG
> would be enormously helpful in creating prototype and example pages
> (templates), THEN use the "direct HTML editing" of those pages, if you
> insist. AND, you are correct in that WYSIWYG editors (all of them)
> will add code, if you aren't careful, that isn't needed, or will leave
> out tags you DO need for validations.
>
> If you learned text-based editing, and are happy doing it that way,
> more power to you, but DO NOT claim that WYSIWYG editors (of which FP
> is only one) are ONLY used by "novices who don't know better."
>
> And the paragraph about knowing what can go wrong with them by
> learning HTML by using a text editor is correct. Learn the correct way
> to do it, then you can play around with WYS... editors, see what each
> of them do wrong, and make an informed choice.
>
> As it is, I started with FP 10 years ago, and am still using it. I'm
> happy using it the way I do, and am sure, if required by a permanent
> position somewhere, I could learn any other editor, WYS, text, or
> whatever, based on what I've learned using it.
>
> Am I an expert? No... There's a lot of things I would like to learn
> (mostly having to do with PROGRAMMING for the web)... But, I am also
> nowhere near a Novice.
Fair enough, it sounds like you've worked out how to make good use of
some of the features of FP while working around the downsides.
I should not have said "only used by novices". All the same, I would
think people who use it the way you do are not in the majority.
On May 9, 1:39 pm, "Woody Dawson"
> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My teacher wants
> us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML pages. Just wondering
> why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage, etc.?
When you learned to talk, did your parents start you out with College
level words or did they start you out with mama, papa, kaka, dodo?
If you do not understand the basics, then you can not move forward.
Notepad teaches you the basics. Tools like front page give people that
don't know the basics a crutch that will hurt them in the long run.
Learn HTML, then move to a tool like front page or dreamweaver if you
like.
On May 10, 3:08 am, Ben C
> The only people
> who use Frontpage are novices who don't know better.
Front page, well I may agree, a different wysiwyg tool like
Dreamweaver, I have to disagree.
On 2007-05-10, Travis Newbury
> On May 10, 3:08 am, Ben C
>> The only people
>> who use Frontpage are novices who don't know better.
>
> Front page, well I may agree, a different wysiwyg tool like
> Dreamweaver, I have to disagree.
I did mean specifically Frontpage. I know that people do use Dreamweaver
and other things quite a bit.
Ben C wrote:
> Some of these analogies imply that once the novice has found his HTML
> legs he can safely go back to using Frontpage. But no-one does that,
> they just graduate from notepad to a better text editor. The only people
> who use Frontpage are novices who don't know better.
Which is why I like Sherm Pendley's analogy, comparing a text editor to a
pencil and paper, and Frontpage to a calculator, for the purpose of maths.
A calculator will help you do moderately complicated calculations fairly
quickly, but they have limited precision (e.g. limited number of decimal
points it can display), and will often still require plenty of thought
from the user in knowing which calculations need to be made.
But when it comes to the really complicated calculations, a calculator is
of little use. Ask Andrew Wiles why he took so long to discover the proof
to Fermat's Last Theorem, and he is unlikely to tell you that it's because
he hadn't found the right key on his calculator.
--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/
Geek of ~ HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux
In article
Ben C
about FP:
> I should not have said "only used by novices". All the same, I would
> think people who use it the way you do are not in the majority.
In fairness to yourself, I would think in the case of FP, it
would be a tiny minority.
--
dorayme
On Thu, 10 May 2007 09:54:34 GMT Travis Newbury scribed:
> On May 9, 1:39 pm, "Woody Dawson"
>> I'm new to web design and have just started an intro class. My
>> teacher wants us to start out by using notepad to create some HTML
>> pages. Just wondering why do it this way? Is it not easier to use
>> Frontpage, etc.?
>
> When you learned to talk, did your parents start you out with College
> level words or did they start you out with mama, papa, kaka, dodo?
I got more "kaka" than anything else. Think that's significant?
--
Neredbojias
He who laughs last sounds like an idiot.
In article <1178790873.950889.7800@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Travis Newbury
> When you learned to talk, did your parents start you out with College
> level words or did they start you out with mama, papa, kaka, dodo?
I hate to be pedantic, but this is a bad analogy. In fact, you
could not have picked a worse one. Kids don't need parents to
teach them words and often don't have them do so. They actually
and amazingly pick up any language that is around them (not
necessarily directed at them) till they are about 5 or 6 a bit
like they get to be able to walk without any special tuition.
It would be nice if the foundation physical structures in the
modern brain was similarly furnished to be receptive to html and
css. Somehow, I suspect that human evolution never provided for
this. And, as a result, look at the painful process that has
resulted.
--
dorayme
In article
Toby A Inkster
> But when it comes to the really complicated calculations, a calculator is
> of little use. Ask Andrew Wiles why he took so long to discover the proof
> to Fermat's Last Theorem, and he is unlikely to tell you that it's because
> he hadn't found the right key on his calculator.
Perhaps because the difficult things he was doing were not
_calculating_ in the sense we normally understand by this. But,
rather, _reasoning_ through the logic of the issues involved.
--
dorayme
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed dorayme
736FE6.08144011052007@news-vip.optusnet.com.au:
> In article <1178790873.950889.7800@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> Travis Newbury
>
>> When you learned to talk, did your parents start you out with College
>> level words or did they start you out with mama, papa, kaka, dodo?
>
> I hate to be pedantic, but this is a bad analogy. In fact, you
> could not have picked a worse one. Kids don't need parents to
> teach them words and often don't have them do so. They actually
> and amazingly pick up any language that is around them (not
> necessarily directed at them) till they are about 5 or 6 a bit
> like they get to be able to walk without any special tuition.
>
> It would be nice if the foundation physical structures in the
> modern brain was similarly furnished to be receptive to html and
> css. Somehow, I suspect that human evolution never provided for
> this. And, as a result, look at the painful process that has
> resulted.
>
How right you are. When Spane was about a year and half, he did
something that amazed me. I have a habit of counting to few numbers when
I am under stress. One day, I said "one, two, three, four" and Spane
said, as clear as a bell, "Five!". He was also able to pick out that
number about a month later, and a month after that, he started
learning/talking about the bus line numbers. At three and a half, I
think he knows the Glendale, CA Beeline routes better than some of the
drivers.
--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
"dorayme"
news:doraymeRidThis-736FE6.08144011052007@news-vip.optusnet. com.au...
> In article <1178790873.950889.7800@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> Travis Newbury
>
>> When you learned to talk, did your parents start you out with College
>> level words or did they start you out with mama, papa, kaka, dodo?
>
> I hate to be pedantic, but this is a bad analogy. In fact, you
> could not have picked a worse one. Kids don't need parents to
> teach them words and often don't have them do so. They actually
> and amazingly pick up any language that is around them (not
> necessarily directed at them) till they are about 5 or 6 a bit
> like they get to be able to walk without any special tuition.
>
> It would be nice if the foundation physical structures in the
> modern brain was similarly furnished to be receptive to html and
> css. Somehow, I suspect that human evolution never provided for
> this. And, as a result, look at the painful process that has
> resulted.
That's probably because HTML and CSS don't follow the requirements of the
Universal Grammar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_grammar
Universal grammar is a theory of linguistics postulating principles of
grammar shared by all languages, thought to be innate to humans.
- Oliver
On 2007-05-10, dorayme
> In article <1178790873.950889.7800@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> Travis Newbury
>
>> When you learned to talk, did your parents start you out with College
>> level words or did they start you out with mama, papa, kaka, dodo?
>
> I hate to be pedantic, but this is a bad analogy. In fact, you
> could not have picked a worse one. Kids don't need parents to
> teach them words and often don't have them do so. They actually
> and amazingly pick up any language that is around them (not
> necessarily directed at them) till they are about 5 or 6 a bit
> like they get to be able to walk without any special tuition.
>
> It would be nice if the foundation physical structures in the
> modern brain was similarly furnished to be receptive to html and
> css. Somehow, I suspect that human evolution never provided for
> this. And, as a result, look at the painful process that has
> resulted.
I think most people can learn HTML and CSS in less time than 24 hours a
day for 5 or 6 years.
In article
Ben C
> On 2007-05-10, dorayme
> > In article <1178790873.950889.7800@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> > Travis Newbury
> >
> >> When you learned to talk, did your parents start you out with College
> >> level words or did they start you out with mama, papa, kaka, dodo?
> >
> > I hate to be pedantic, but this is a bad analogy. In fact, you
> > could not have picked a worse one. Kids don't need parents to
> > teach them words and often don't have them do so. They actually
> > and amazingly pick up any language that is around them (not
> > necessarily directed at them) till they are about 5 or 6 a bit
> > like they get to be able to walk without any special tuition.
> >
> > It would be nice if the foundation physical structures in the
> > modern brain was similarly furnished to be receptive to html and
> > css. Somehow, I suspect that human evolution never provided for
> > this. And, as a result, look at the painful process that has
> > resulted.
>
> I think most people can learn HTML and CSS in less time than 24 hours a
> day for 5 or 6 years.
You are right but only if they set out to learn it. The situation
with language and kids is quite different, they cannot help but
learn the language that is spoken around them (not necessarily to
them). With adults, it is rather different.
--
dorayme
On May 10, 3:39 am, "Woody Dawson"
> My teacher wants us to start out by using notepad to create
> some HTML pages.
I would suggest using an editor with a bit more grunt than notepad.
For example the Zeus editor: http://www.zeusedit.com
> Just wondering why do it this way? Is it not easier to use Frontpage,
> etc.?
Writing the HTML in a text editor will give you a better understanding
of how HTML actually works, which is always good to know if and when
things start to go wrong.
Jussi Jumppanen