Hiding my identity from Word document files

Is there a security utility which can help me with the following?

I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters were
written only by the other person. I use my PC to write the leter and
will email the other person a Word DOC file to use on their PC. We both
use Word 2003 on WinXP.

However I do not want the DOC file I send to show that I have been
involved in any way at all.

(a) I do not want data in File > Properties.
(b) I do not want to have my default margins, font, etc.
(c) I don't want the document file to have other data which has from
elsewhere on my PC (perhaps temp data).

----

Until now I have been sending them unformatted text but this means the
other person has to paste it into Word and then lay it all out and put
in all the formatting for empahsis.

Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a Word
DOC file to anonymise it?

Do I need to use some Word function to have two different sets of
default layout? (See b above.)

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Jim wrote:


> Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a Word
> DOC file to anonymise it?


Yes.

No, I'm not gonna search the link at
for you.

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

In article , Jim wrote:
>I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters were
>written only by the other person.

>Until now I have been sending them unformatted text but this means the
>other person has to paste it into Word and then lay it all out and put
>in all the formatting for empahsis.

Perhaps if you save the file as RTF type? That's a text-only format,
so you could edit it to review that no trace of you is left in.

I don't use Word much; in what little I've done, I think I found that
the page size information was not preserved in the RTF file, which
required that the page size be changed on the imported file -- but that's
trivial compared to the import work they have had to use before.

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Simply have the other person cut your text and paste it into a fresh word
document on their computer??

"Jim" wrote in message
news:Xns994DAD68935935D4AM2@127.0.0.1...
> Is there a security utility which can help me with the following?
>
> I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters were
> written only by the other person. I use my PC to write the leter and
> will email the other person a Word DOC file to use on their PC. We both
> use Word 2003 on WinXP.
>
> However I do not want the DOC file I send to show that I have been
> involved in any way at all.
>
> (a) I do not want data in File > Properties.
> (b) I do not want to have my default margins, font, etc.
> (c) I don't want the document file to have other data which has from
> elsewhere on my PC (perhaps temp data).
>
> ----
>
> Until now I have been sending them unformatted text but this means the
> other person has to paste it into Word and then lay it all out and put
> in all the formatting for empahsis.
>
> Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a Word
> DOC file to anonymise it?
>
> Do I need to use some Word function to have two different sets of
> default layout? (See b above.)

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On 12 Jun 2007, Walter Roberson wrote:

> In article Jim wrote:
>>
>>I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters
>>were written only by the other person.
>>
>>Until now I have been sending them unformatted text but this means
>>the other person has to paste it into Word and then lay it all out
>>and put in all the formatting for empahsis.
>
>
> Perhaps if you save the file as RTF type? That's a text-only
> format, so you could edit it to review that no trace of you is left
> in.
>
> I don't use Word much; in what little I've done, I think I found
> that the page size information was not preserved in the RTF file,
> which required that the page size be changed on the imported file
> -- but that's trivial compared to the import work they have had to
> use before.

I tried RTF but I hear implementations are not consistent. For my needs
there is not quite enough formatting in the RTF which I get from my RTF
editor, Crypt Edit.

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On 12 Jun 2007, HenryD9 wrote:

> Simply have the other person cut your text and paste it into a
> fresh word document on their computer??
>
> "Jim" wrote in message
> news:Xns994DAD68935935D4AM2@127.0.0.1...
>> Is there a security utility which can help me with the following?
>>
>> I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters
>> were written only by the other person. I use my PC to write the
>> leter and will email the other person a Word DOC file to use on
>> their PC. We both use Word 2003 on WinXP.
>>
>> However I do not want the DOC file I send to show that I have been
>> involved in any way at all.
>>
>> (a) I do not want data in File > Properties.
>> (b) I do not want to have my default margins, font, etc.
>> (c) I don't want the document file to have other data which has
>> from elsewhere on my PC (perhaps temp data).
>>
>> ----
>>
>> Until now I have been sending them unformatted text but this means
>> the other person has to paste it into Word and then lay it all out
>> and put in all the formatting for empahsis.
>>
>> Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a
>> Word DOC file to anonymise it?
>>
>> Do I need to use some Word function to have two different sets of
>> default layout? (See b above.)
>
>


Often cut and paste in Windows can preserve formatting. :-(

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On 12 Jun 2007, Sebastian G. wrote:

> Jim wrote:
>
>
>> Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a
>> Word DOC file to anonymise it?
>
>
> Yes.
>
> No, I'm not gonna search the link at
> for you.

Good job you don't want to as there is nothing there. Heh!

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Jim skrev:
> Is there a security utility which can help me with the following?
>
> I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters were
> written only by the other person. I use my PC to write the leter and
> will email the other person a Word DOC file to use on their PC. We both
> use Word 2003 on WinXP.
>
> However I do not want the DOC file I send to show that I have been
> involved in any way at all.
>
> (a) I do not want data in File > Properties.
> (b) I do not want to have my default margins, font, etc.
> (c) I don't want the document file to have other data which has from
> elsewhere on my PC (perhaps temp data).
>
> ----
>
> Until now I have been sending them unformatted text but this means the
> other person has to paste it into Word and then lay it all out and put
> in all the formatting for empahsis.
>
> Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a Word
> DOC file to anonymise it?
>
> Do I need to use some Word function to have two different sets of
> default layout? (See b above.)

If you have the extra space, and if there is a lot of letters you have
to writhe for him.
Why don't you just create a new user in his name?
It would probably save both you and him a lot of extra work.
Just a thought.
/Anders

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

In alt.computer.security Jim wrote:
> On 12 Jun 2007, Sebastian G. wrote:
>
>> Jim wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a
>>> Word DOC file to anonymise it?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> No, I'm not gonna search the link at
>> for you.
>
> Good job you don't want to as there is nothing there. Heh!

There is for me. If this is too difficult for you, you're in trouble.

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Jim wrote:
> On 12 Jun 2007, HenryD9 wrote:
>
>> Simply have the other person cut your text and paste it into a
>> fresh word document on their computer??
>>
>> "Jim" wrote in message
>> news:Xns994DAD68935935D4AM2@127.0.0.1...
>>> Is there a security utility which can help me with the following?
>>>
>>> I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters
>>> were written only by the other person. I use my PC to write the
>>> leter and will email the other person a Word DOC file to use on
>>> their PC. We both use Word 2003 on WinXP.
>>>
>>> However I do not want the DOC file I send to show that I have been
>>> involved in any way at all.
>>>
>>> (a) I do not want data in File > Properties.
>>> (b) I do not want to have my default margins, font, etc.
>>> (c) I don't want the document file to have other data which has
>>> from elsewhere on my PC (perhaps temp data).
>>>
>>> ----
>>>
>>> Until now I have been sending them unformatted text but this means
>>> the other person has to paste it into Word and then lay it all out
>>> and put in all the formatting for empahsis.
>>>
>>> Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a
>>> Word DOC file to anonymise it?
>>>
>>> Do I need to use some Word function to have two different sets of
>>> default layout? (See b above.)
>>
>
>
> Often cut and paste in Windows can preserve formatting. :-(

If you're concerned about the formatting, type it in a plain text editor
such as Notepad and send it that way.


jc

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Jim writes:

> On 12 Jun 2007, Walter Roberson wrote:
>
> > In article Jim wrote:
> >>
> >>I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters
> >>were written only by the other person.
> >>
> >>Until now I have been sending them unformatted text but this means
> >>the other person has to paste it into Word and then lay it all out
> >>and put in all the formatting for empahsis.
> >
> >
> > Perhaps if you save the file as RTF type? That's a text-only
> > format, so you could edit it to review that no trace of you is left
> > in.
> >
> > I don't use Word much; in what little I've done, I think I found
> > that the page size information was not preserved in the RTF file,
> > which required that the page size be changed on the imported file
> > -- but that's trivial compared to the import work they have had to
> > use before.
>
> I tried RTF but I hear implementations are not consistent. For my needs
> there is not quite enough formatting in the RTF which I get from my RTF
> editor, Crypt Edit.

So let me see if I have this straight.

You want something that removes margins font, etc, yet you want it to
have a bunch of formating that isn't available in the RTF format Word
spits out? These seem like conflicting goals to me.

I'm curious what info is or isn't in the .doc format exported by
Openoffice.org's writer program though.


--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Todd H. wrote:


> You want something that removes margins font, etc,


I'd rather say that he wants something that removes metadata from the
formatting data, e.g. that it's still fat, 10pt, Times New Roman, but does
not belong to the style class "breakfast at Tifanny's".

> I'm curious what info is or isn't in the .doc format exported by
> Openoffice.org's writer program though.

Metadata about formatting for sure. Anyway else it removes everything it
doesn't understand, whereas the rest is exported via the user interface, so
you can change it. It also removes compiled macro code.

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Jim (07-06-12 17:02:48):

> I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters were
> written only by the other person. I use my PC to write the leter and
> will email the other person a Word DOC file to use on their PC. We
> both use Word 2003 on WinXP.
>
> However I do not want the DOC file I send to show that I have been
> involved in any way at all.

Others have already answered that part. However, your problem is a kind
of privacy problem. Microsoft did not care a lot about privacy, or they
did it that bad even intentionally. I don't know. But a lot of data is
saved in Microsoft Office files, quite a bunch of data, that doesn't
belong there and serves no purpose in that context. A quick binary look
at the file will show this.

This is why I would suggest to switch to something completely different,
which is not Microsoft. If quality is of matter, use LaTeX. You don't
care about the formatting, but let the professionals do it for you, so
that this `someone else' guy wouldn't even want or need to reformat it.

The other option is HTML. For example, you write the content and
`someone else' writes the stylesheet. In the worst case, HTML can be
copy&pasted into a fresh Office document, and it will preserve the text
formatting in a context-sensitive manner. In other words, it will
preserve the information that a piece of text is a title, or something
emphasized, and if you change the size, in which titles are printed,
then all titles will change at once.

Depending on how much time you are willing to invest in privacy, you
might prefer one or the other. LaTeX produces high quality output.
HTML, on the other hand, takes a much shorter learning path. There are
good WYSIWYG editors for both of them, so you don't need to learn a new
markup language, if you don't want to.


Regards,
Ertugrul Söylemez.


--=20
Security is the one concept, which makes things in your life stay as
they are. Otto is a man, who is afraid of changes in his life; so
naturally he does not employ security.

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:09:36 +0200, "Sebastian G."
wrote:

>Todd H. wrote:

>> I'm curious what info is or isn't in the .doc format exported by
>> Openoffice.org's writer program though.
>
>Metadata about formatting for sure. Anyway else it removes everything it
>doesn't understand, whereas the rest is exported via the user interface, so
>you can change it. It also removes compiled macro code.

Sebastian, this was too quick for me to understand.

Is there a reference somewhere describing these aspects in more depth?
I particularly didn't understand 'metadata about formatting', and
neither did I understand quite what the 'rest' is, or what is meant by
exporting via the user interface.


______________
regards,
Ron

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On 12 Jun 2007, Jim Watt wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 18:42:38 +0100, Jim wrote:
>
>>I tried RTF but I hear implementations are not consistent. For my
>>needs there is not quite enough formatting in the RTF which I get
>>from my RTF editor, Crypt Edit.
>
> I thought you were using word?
>
> Anyway .rtf is the way to go for compatibility and interchange
> of documents without unwanted embedded things.
>
>
> --
> Jim Watt
> http://www.gibnet.com

I am using word.

Seems you may not have read the whole of my posting where you see I am
replying to someone who asks if I have considered using RTF.

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On 12 Jun 2007, Sebastian G. wrote:

> Todd H. wrote:
>
>
>> You want something that removes margins font, etc,
>
>
> I'd rather say that he wants something that removes metadata from
> the formatting data, e.g. that it's still fat, 10pt, Times New
> Roman, but does not belong to the style class "breakfast at
> Tifanny's".

I am the OP. I see I have done a poor job of explaining this and yet
I can't add much more to explain the original post.


>
>> I'm curious what info is or isn't in the .doc format exported by
>> Openoffice.org's writer program though.
>
> Metadata about formatting for sure. Anyway else it removes
> everything it doesn't understand, whereas the rest is exported via
> the user interface, so you can change it. It also removes compiled
> macro code.
>

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On 12 Jun 2007, Colin B. wrote:

> In alt.computer.security Jim wrote:
>> On 12 Jun 2007, Sebastian G. wrote:
>>
>>> Jim wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a
>>>> Word DOC file to anonymise it?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> No, I'm not gonna search the link at
>>> for you.
>>
>> Good job you don't want to as there is nothing there. Heh!
>
> There is for me. If this is too difficult for you, you're in trouble.
>

I think I am. I guess that's why I have asked for help. I just don't
know everything about computing or word processing.

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On 12 Jun 2007, jc wrote:

> Jim wrote:
>> On 12 Jun 2007, HenryD9 wrote:
>>
>>> Simply have the other person cut your text and paste it into a
>>> fresh word document on their computer??
>>>
>>> "Jim" wrote in message
>>> news:Xns994DAD68935935D4AM2@127.0.0.1...
>>>> Is there a security utility which can help me with the
>>>> following?
>>>>
>>>> I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters
>>>> were written only by the other person. I use my PC to write the
>>>> leter and will email the other person a Word DOC file to use on
>>>> their PC. We both use Word 2003 on WinXP.
>>>>
>>>> However I do not want the DOC file I send to show that I have
>>>> been involved in any way at all.
>>>>
>>>> (a) I do not want data in File > Properties.
>>>> (b) I do not want to have my default margins, font, etc.
>>>> (c) I don't want the document file to have other data which has
>>>> from elsewhere on my PC (perhaps temp data).
>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>>
>>>> Until now I have been sending them unformatted text but this
>>>> means the other person has to paste it into Word and then lay it
>>>> all out and put in all the formatting for empahsis.
>>>>
>>>> Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a
>>>> Word DOC file to anonymise it?
>>>>
>>>> Do I need to use some Word function to have two different sets
>>>> of default layout? (See b above.)
>>>
>>
>>
>> Often cut and paste in Windows can preserve formatting. :-(
>
> If you're concerned about the formatting, type it in a plain text
> editor such as Notepad and send it that way.
>


It is very important that I minimise the other person's work. If I
give them plain text to lay out and format then they will rightly say
is not part of our arrangement.

If you recall I want to do the actual work.

I want the result must not to look as if it came from me or from my
copy of Word or from my PC.

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On 12 Jun 2007, Anders wrote:

> Jim skrev:
>> Is there a security utility which can help me with the following?
>>
>> I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters
>> were written only by the other person. I use my PC to write the
>> leter and will email the other person a Word DOC file to use on
>> their PC. We both use Word 2003 on WinXP.
>>
>> However I do not want the DOC file I send to show that I have been
>> involved in any way at all.
>>
>> (a) I do not want data in File > Properties.
>> (b) I do not want to have my default margins, font, etc.
>> (c) I don't want the document file to have other data which has
>> from elsewhere on my PC (perhaps temp data).
>>
>> ----
>>
>> Until now I have been sending them unformatted text but this means
>> the other person has to paste it into Word and then lay it all out
>> and put in all the formatting for empahsis.
>>
>> Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a
>> Word DOC file to anonymise it?
>>
>> Do I need to use some Word function to have two different sets of
>> default layout? (See b above.)
>
> If you have the extra space, and if there is a lot of letters you
> have to writhe for him.
> Why don't you just create a new user in his name?
> It would probably save both you and him a lot of extra work.
> Just a thought.
> /Anders

Anders, that is a very good idea because then the Word settings will be
different. It's a bit of a chore each time but it would work.

However - I do wonder if I can't get the same effect by swapping a few
Word parameter files in my signon.

If I swap signons the PC system identifiers will still be there. Perhaps
they may be not so hard to shift.

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On 12 Jun 2007, Todd H. wrote:

> Jim writes:
>
>> On 12 Jun 2007, Walter Roberson wrote:
>>
>> > In article Jim wrote:
>> >>
>> >>I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters
>> >>were written only by the other person.
>> >>
>> >>Until now I have been sending them unformatted text but this
>> >>means the other person has to paste it into Word and then lay it
>> >>all out and put in all the formatting for empahsis.
>> >
>> >
>> > Perhaps if you save the file as RTF type? That's a text-only
>> > format, so you could edit it to review that no trace of you is
>> > left in.
>> >
>> > I don't use Word much; in what little I've done, I think I found
>> > that the page size information was not preserved in the RTF
>> > file, which required that the page size be changed on the
>> > imported file -- but that's trivial compared to the import work
>> > they have had to use before.
>>
>> I tried RTF but I hear implementations are not consistent. For my
>> needs there is not quite enough formatting in the RTF which I get
>> from my RTF editor, Crypt Edit.
>
> So let me see if I have this straight.
>
> You want something that removes margins font, etc, yet you want it
> to have a bunch of formating that isn't available in the RTF format
> Word spits out? These seem like conflicting goals to me.
>
> I'm curious what info is or isn't in the .doc format exported by
> Openoffice.org's writer program though.
>
>


Apologies for confusing you. I originally posted that "I need to write
some letters for someone else as if the letters were written only by the
other person."

RTF does not contain enough formatting for these documents.

maybe have another peek at my original post?

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Ronnie wrote:


> Is there a reference somewhere describing these aspects in more depth?


Just open your favorite text processing software, write some text, mark it,
and then select a style like "Heading 1" for it.

Close it, open it up again, mark the text. It's style will be named "Heading 1".

> or what is meant by exporting via the user interface.

Offering/exposing via the GUI.

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:28:27 +0200, "Sebastian G."
wrote:


>Just open your favorite text processing software, write some text, mark it,
>and then select a style like "Heading 1" for it.
>
>Close it, open it up again, mark the text. It's style will be named "Heading 1".
>
Sebastian, thank you. I did that in Word, saved, re-opened in Word,
and, as you predicted, Heading 1 was displayed in the GUI.

As it was when I then opened the document in OpenOffice.org

As it was when I saved the document from OO as a .odt, and re-opened
it again in OO.

As it was when I resaved the odt, this time from OO but as a Word XP
document.

And as it was when I opened the resaved 'odt to doc' document finally
in Word.

So whatever OpenOffice did or did not save, it certainly did save this
formatting metadata. So this is not an example of whatever formatting
metadata OO is thought not to save.

[If anyone is interested, this simple, 33 character, test document in
Word occupied 19k bytes, the .odt file was only 8k bytes (for the 33
character document), and the resaved as WordXP file was 65,536 bytes -
suspiciously like a whole sector or block. OOo did write a smaller
file than Word - so perhaps had taken something out.]

As a user, I too would really would like to understand whether using
OpenOffice does reduce data leakage, and what type of data leakage it
does stem. If anyone who knows of some work done on this happens to
read this thread this far, maybe they'll post a link. Otherwise, it
could make a nice CS project for some student somewhere.

______________
regards,
Ron

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

In article , Jim wrote:
>On 12 Jun 2007, Jim Watt wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 18:42:38 +0100, Jim wrote:
>>
>>>I tried RTF but I hear implementations are not consistent. For my
>>>needs there is not quite enough formatting in the RTF which I get
>>>from my RTF editor, Crypt Edit.

>> I thought you were using word?

>I am using word.

>Seems you may not have read the whole of my posting where you see I am
>replying to someone who asks if I have considered using RTF.

I'm the one who suggested that you consider *saving* your file as RTF,
which is something you can do from MS Word.

I didn't understand the reference to Crypt Edit, or the best I could
make out was that -maybe- you thought that using RTF required you to
use different software.

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

In alt.computer.security Jim wrote:
> On 12 Jun 2007, Colin B. wrote:
>
>> In alt.computer.security Jim wrote:
>>> On 12 Jun 2007, Sebastian G. wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a
>>>>> Word DOC file to anonymise it?
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>>
>>>> No, I'm not gonna search the link at
>>>> for you.
>>>
>>> Good job you don't want to as there is nothing there. Heh!
>>
>> There is for me. If this is too difficult for you, you're in trouble.
>
> I think I am. I guess that's why I have asked for help. I just don't
> know everything about computing or word processing.

Let me be clear.

If you follow the link given above, it takes you the MS download site.
If you then plug in some search terms like, say, 'hidden data,' it takes
you right to a MS-created Word plug-in to delete metadata. This seems to
be what you're looking for, no?

If it's that important that you give a completed file to the person, with
no hint of your fingerprints on it, AND requiring more formatting that RTF
can provide, then I think you have two main options:

1) Use a different format, such as HTML.
2) Use a different computer, configured to look like theirs. You could
probably set up a virtual machine with VMWare for this purpose.

I'd be fascinated to know exactly why you need to accomplish this, but
I imagine it's secret for a reason.

Colin

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Jim skrev:
> On 12 Jun 2007, Anders wrote:
>
>> Jim skrev:
>>> Is there a security utility which can help me with the following?
>>>
>>> I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters
>>> were written only by the other person. I use my PC to write the
>>> leter and will email the other person a Word DOC file to use on
>>> their PC. We both use Word 2003 on WinXP.
>>>
>>> However I do not want the DOC file I send to show that I have been
>>> involved in any way at all.
>>>
>>> (a) I do not want data in File > Properties.
>>> (b) I do not want to have my default margins, font, etc.
>>> (c) I don't want the document file to have other data which has
>>> from elsewhere on my PC (perhaps temp data).
>>>
>>> ----
>>>
>>> Until now I have been sending them unformatted text but this means
>>> the other person has to paste it into Word and then lay it all out
>>> and put in all the formatting for empahsis.
>>>
>>> Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a
>>> Word DOC file to anonymise it?
>>>
>>> Do I need to use some Word function to have two different sets of
>>> default layout? (See b above.)
>> If you have the extra space, and if there is a lot of letters you
>> have to writhe for him.
>> Why don't you just create a new user in his name?
>> It would probably save both you and him a lot of extra work.
>> Just a thought.
>> /Anders
>
> Anders, that is a very good idea because then the Word settings will be
> different. It's a bit of a chore each time but it would work.
>
> However - I do wonder if I can't get the same effect by swapping a few
> Word parameter files in my signon.
>
> If I swap signons the PC system identifiers will still be there. Perhaps
> they may be not so hard to shift.

Perhaps 'rhdtool.exe' can be useful, it is for the XP/2003 versions of Word.

one line:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=144 e54ed-d43e-42ca-bc7b-5446d34e5360&displaylang=en

/Anders

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Jim wrote:
> Is there a security utility which can help me with the following?
>
> I need to write some letters for someone else as if the letters were
> written only by the other person. I use my PC to write the leter and
> will email the other person a Word DOC file to use on their PC. We both
> use Word 2003 on WinXP.
>
> However I do not want the DOC file I send to show that I have been
> involved in any way at all.
>
> (a) I do not want data in File > Properties.
> (b) I do not want to have my default margins, font, etc.
> (c) I don't want the document file to have other data which has from
> elsewhere on my PC (perhaps temp data).
>
> ----
>
> Until now I have been sending them unformatted text but this means the
> other person has to paste it into Word and then lay it all out and put
> in all the formatting for empahsis.
>
> Is there some software which will strip out the identifiers in a Word
> DOC file to anonymise it?
>
> Do I need to use some Word function to have two different sets of
> default layout? (See b above.)


Just edit the document "info"

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Ronnie wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:28:27 +0200, "Sebastian G."
> wrote:
>
....
> [If anyone is interested, this simple, 33 character, test document in
> Word occupied 19k bytes, the .odt file was only 8k bytes (for the 33
> character document), and the resaved as WordXP file was 65,536 bytes -
> suspiciously like a whole sector or block. OOo did write a smaller
> file than Word - so perhaps had taken something out.]
>
....

ooo documents are compressed jar archives. Extract it and the size will
be similar to Word.


jc

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 23:12:51 GMT, jc wrote:

>ooo documents are compressed jar archives. Extract it and the size will
>be similar to Word.
>
So they are! The odt file contained:

content.xml 3,077
current.xml 0
manifest.xml 1,866
meta.xml 990
mimetype 39
settings.xml 8,234
styles.xml 19,535
thumbnail.png 902

The 'styles.xml' alone is the size of the original word document,
together with 'settings.xml' the file is a lot larger when extracted,
even before you get to the content.

I had cleared the UI-presented user information before saving either
the Word or OOo versions since the thread is about minimising leakage.
Even so, these component files contained three forms of information
that I was able to spot with a quick look:

(a) The styles.xml contained all the styles that are in my 'normal'
template in Word (which has been modified and extended to accommodate
the work I do). I think this is understandable, even desirable for
most collaborative work, but DOES mean that, forensically, the
document can be matched with any other that is produced on 'my' Word.
From the OP's point of view, unless he and his correspondent have
EXACTLY the same 'normal' template, then this section of an OOo file
will differ (as will the equivalent section of the Word document).

(b) Several of the XML files contain some standard-ish W3 headers, and
the order and pattern of these might change with different OOo
releases, so the version of OOo used to generate the odt can be
revealed by these headers. Additionally, OOo announces its version
number in one of the files, but even if this was extracted by an
author, the version would leave this 'fingerprint' of the W3 header
sequence.

(c) The settings.xml file contained quite a lot of information about
both the specific user-preferences in the version of OOo used, and, as
far as i could tell, some information about the nature of the screen
image used to display the document. Again, forensically, this data
could match the same data in other documents produced on this machine.
Such 'preference' or user-settings information might quite possibly
also be found in the Word files - but this is only conjecture, I have
no knowledge of the content of Word files.

I was very surprised. I'm a fan of OpenOffice.org, but I don't think
it solves the OP's need in this instance. The quick look also tells
me that whether in Word or in OOo, identical templates must also be
used on the two machines in question, and the user preferences or
settings or options must be the same on both machines. The version of
Word or OOo must be the same, too, including any patches or updates.

That seems pretty impossible to me if the OP has other work to do for
which he needs specific preferences and templates.

RTF must be looking the best choice.

______________
regards,
Ron

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Ronnie wrote:


> (a) The styles.xml contained all the styles that are in my 'normal'
> template in Word (which has been modified and extended to accommodate
> the work I do). I think this is understandable, even desirable for
> most collaborative work, but DOES mean that, forensically, the
> document can be matched with any other that is produced on 'my' Word.
> From the OP's point of view, unless he and his correspondent have
> EXACTLY the same 'normal' template, then this section of an OOo file
> will differ (as will the equivalent section of the Word document).


The style names can be edited from the GUI, at least in OOo.

> (b) Several of the XML files contain some standard-ish W3 headers, and
> the order and pattern of these might change with different OOo
> releases, so the version of OOo used to generate the odt can be
> revealed by these headers. Additionally, OOo announces its version
> number in one of the files, but even if this was extracted by an
> author, the version would leave this 'fingerprint' of the W3 header
> sequence.


Well, and now please estimate how many unique bits these are, and what their
real entropy is. As a bad estimate: If only 80% of the users are running the
latest version of OOo, and you do as well, this gives an attacker about 0.3
bits of additional information.

> I was very surprised. I'm a fan of OpenOffice.org, but I don't think
> it solves the OP's need in this instance.


Depends on how you use it. After all, the OP is using Word. Now consider
opening the created .doc file, load it up in OOo, save it as .odt, load it
again, save it as .doc. Now, what do you think, how much of OOo's or Word's
settings are preserved in this conversion process?

If you're not happy with that, try AbiWord. It's small enough to let you
compile it yourself without a hassle, and just modify the .doc and .odt
import/export filters, which by themselves already do a pretty decent job on
not adding much more data than needed.

> RTF must be looking the best choice.

What about PDF? :-)

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:35:09 +0200, "Sebastian G."
wrote:

>Ronnie wrote:
>
>
>> (a) The styles.xml contained all the styles that are in my 'normal'
>> template in Word (which has been modified and extended to accommodate
>> the work I do).
>> ...... [snip]
>The style names can be edited from the GUI, at least in OOo.
>
The OP had suggested using a piece of software to hide his identity
from the letter he was drafting, but I wouldn't recommend that he or
his correspondent employed a manual process to do this - seems much
too prone to error and, without a great deal of care, prone to
inconsistency in subsequent letters which might alert a recipient
checking for these things.

>> (b) Several of the XML files contain some standard-ish W3 headers, and
>> the order and pattern of these might change with different OOo
>> releases, so the version of OOo used to generate the odt can be
>> revealed by these headers. Additionally, OOo announces its version
>> number in one of the files, but even if this was extracted by an
>> author, the version would leave this 'fingerprint' of the W3 header
>> sequence.
>
>
>Well, and now please estimate how many unique bits these are, and what their
>real entropy is. As a bad estimate: If only 80% of the users are running the
>latest version of OOo, and you do as well, this gives an attacker about 0.3
>bits of additional information.
>
Sebastian, the issue is simpler than this. Unless the OP and his
correspondent are both running exactly the same version of OOo (or
Word, probably), then the metadata that OOo (or Word, probably)
produces will reveal that the letter was not drafted on the
correspondent's machine.

>> I was very surprised. I'm a fan of OpenOffice.org, but I don't think
>> it solves the OP's need in this instance.
>
>
>Depends on how you use it. After all, the OP is using Word. Now consider
>opening the created .doc file, load it up in OOo, save it as .odt, load it
>again, save it as .doc. Now, what do you think, how much of OOo's or Word's
>settings are preserved in this conversion process?
I am sure that a security expert, or even the OP if he had the time
and skills, could spend a lot of time finding all the telltale data
there is to find, and then erase it. But it will be a manual process
for him, error prone, and not what he has asked for.

>
>If you're not happy with that, try AbiWord. It's small enough to let you
>compile it yourself without a hassle, and just modify the .doc and .odt
>import/export filters, which by themselves already do a pretty decent job on
>not adding much more data than needed.
Maybe. But, the type of data revealed by Word and by OOo seems to be
the type of data that Abiword might also reveal - the OP mentioned
margin settings - he is aware that there are many aspects of a
document that might reveal that it had been generated elsewhere. This
is true of any modern word processor, because they all, rightly, try
to assist collaborative working and hence carry metadata across from
one machine to another.

He needs to use an interchange format that restricts formatting
information ONLY to fonts and spacing, includes his text, and excludes
any naming, or any other information such as version or package or
whatever. He ALSO needs to ensure that the page layout properties,
and (probably) the fonts available, are the same on both machines.
I'm not aware of any modern word processor, or file format, that will
meet his need. I think RTF comes close, but still names fonts, I
think, and I don't know if RTF allows other metadata to be inserted
under some reserved code.

I think he has set a difficult problem. The suggestions elsewhere in
the thread to 'clone' his correspondent's machine in a sort of VM
might be the best, he still needs version and preference and settings
equivalence, though.

______________
regards,
Ron

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

On 16 Jun 2007, Jim Watt wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:17:47 +0100, Jim wrote:
>
>>RTF does not contain enough formatting for these documents.
>
> As far as I've seen .rtf supports much the same as .doc
> except that its an open format does not allow macros,
> personal data and MS bloat.
>
> I use it extensivly for publishing documents on websites
> for its compatibility etc.
>
> --
> Jim Watt
> http://www.gibnet.com
>

RTF does not support as much as DOC. If RTF did then it would be on
account of proprietary extesnions to basic RTF.

A commentary on the interchangeability of the two is at:
http://www.cv.nrao.edu/~pmurphy/doc-interchange.shtml#docrtf

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

Re: Hiding my identity from Word document files

Jim Watt wrote:
> Anyway .rtf is the way to go for compatibility and interchange
> of documents without unwanted embedded things.

I don't think so. RTF is good for the job here, but what you describe
reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument

Yours,
VB.
--
"Es muss darauf geachtet werden, dass das Grundgesetz nicht mit Methoden
geschützt wird, die seinem Ziel und seinem Geist zuwider sind."

Gustav Heinemann, "Freimütige Kritik und demokratischer Rechtsstaat"