Re: Please review my site

On Jun 27, 4:41 pm, "b...@motivateddesign.co.uk"
wrote:
> On Jun 27, 2:04 am, Jim Moe wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > b...@motivateddesign.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > putting myself out on a limb.
> > > i am just starting life as a freelance web designer, and would value
> > > any (nice) feedback on my site
> > >www.motivateddesign.co.uk
>
> > Your graphics design and color scheme is quite nice, appealing. (That
> > was nice.)
>
> > Your page markup is not so good.
> > - Use of XHTML, and why Transitional?
> > Are you generating the Web pages from an XML source with XSLT? And is
> > that same XML source generating print output or PDF? If not, there is no
> > reason to use XHTML. Use HTML Strict instead.
> > - The body text size is 12 px, 75% of my preferred size, and too damn
> > small to read.
> > - Fixed width design.
> > - The layout degrades to unreadability in places when to font size is
> > increased even by 120%. Particularly noticeable on the Services page.
> > - Div-itis: Replacing standard markup elements with CSS-defined classes
> > that do the same thing. E.g.: .h1, .h2., .h3. There is a net loss of
> > information since HTML, the HyperText MARKUP Language, is not being used
> > to mark up much.
> > - Replacing block elements (h1, h2, p) with a , in inline element.
> > What's with that?
> > - The W3C logos mean nothing to most people, and is simply expected by
> > those who do know what they represent.
>
> > --
> > jmm (hyphen) list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
> > (Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)
>
> Thanks everyone for your advice,
>
> I have spent the last 5 years teaching computer science in school, and
> have had enough.
> Then had a bright idea, you used to be a web designer, may be I should
> do that again.
> But that was in the days of the good old table and I am learning CSS
> stuff as a go along.
> Teaching does not (in my experience) allow time to learn interesting
> new stuff.
>
> I will try to make all of the recommended changes and if I feel brave
> post the site again for another going over.
>
> Regards and thanks again
>
> Barry.
You should also read, http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Web Accessibility Checklist was Re: Please review my site

On Jun 27, 5:20 pm, Chaddy2222 sicur...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Jun 27, 4:41 pm, "b...@motivateddesign.co.uk"
>
>
>
> wrote:
> > On Jun 27, 2:04 am, Jim Moe wrote:
>
> > > b...@motivateddesign.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > > putting myself out on a limb.
> > > > i am just starting life as a freelance web designer, and would value
> > > > any (nice) feedback on my site
> > > >www.motivateddesign.co.uk
>
> > > Your graphics design and color scheme is quite nice, appealing. (That
> > > was nice.)
>
> > > Your page markup is not so good.
> > > - Use of XHTML, and why Transitional?
> > > Are you generating the Web pages from an XML source with XSLT? And is
> > > that same XML source generating print output or PDF? If not, there is no
> > > reason to use XHTML. Use HTML Strict instead.
> > > - The body text size is 12 px, 75% of my preferred size, and too damn
> > > small to read.
> > > - Fixed width design.
> > > - The layout degrades to unreadability in places when to font size is
> > > increased even by 120%. Particularly noticeable on the Services page.
> > > - Div-itis: Replacing standard markup elements with CSS-defined classes
> > > that do the same thing. E.g.: .h1, .h2., .h3. There is a net loss of
> > > information since HTML, the HyperText MARKUP Language, is not being used
> > > to mark up much.
> > > - Replacing block elements (h1, h2, p) with a , in inline element.
> > > What's with that?
> > > - The W3C logos mean nothing to most people, and is simply expected by
> > > those who do know what they represent.
>
> > > --
> > > jmm (hyphen) list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
> > > (Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)
>
> > Thanks everyone for your advice,
>
> > I have spent the last 5 years teaching computer science in school, and
> > have had enough.
> > Then had a bright idea, you used to be a web designer, may be I should
> > do that again.
> > But that was in the days of the good old table and I am learning CSS
> > stuff as a go along.
> > Teaching does not (in my experience) allow time to learn interesting
> > new stuff.
>
> > I will try to make all of the recommended changes and if I feel brave
> > post the site again for another going over.
>
> > Regards and thanks again
>
> > Barry.
>
> You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
>
Ahh, why I made this a new thread and posted it to these other groups
i'm not quite sure but I will / have changed the subject line to make
it read better.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Web Accessibility Checklist was Re: Please review my site

On Jun 27, 8:30 am, Chaddy2222 sicur...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Jun 27, 5:20 pm, Chaddy2222 >
> sicur...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > On Jun 27, 4:41 pm, "b...@motivateddesign.co.uk"
>
> > wrote:
> > > On Jun 27, 2:04 am, Jim Moe wrote:
>
> > > > b...@motivateddesign.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > > > putting myself out on a limb.
> > > > > i am just starting life as a freelance web designer, and would value
> > > > > any (nice) feedback on my site
> > > > >www.motivateddesign.co.uk
>
> > > > Your graphics design and color scheme is quite nice, appealing. (That
> > > > was nice.)
>
> > > > Your page markup is not so good.
> > > > - Use of XHTML, and why Transitional?
> > > > Are you generating the Web pages from an XML source with XSLT? And is
> > > > that same XML source generating print output or PDF? If not, there is no
> > > > reason to use XHTML. Use HTML Strict instead.
> > > > - The body text size is 12 px, 75% of my preferred size, and too damn
> > > > small to read.
> > > > - Fixed width design.
> > > > - The layout degrades to unreadability in places when to font size is
> > > > increased even by 120%. Particularly noticeable on the Services page.
> > > > - Div-itis: Replacing standard markup elements with CSS-defined classes
> > > > that do the same thing. E.g.: .h1, .h2., .h3. There is a net loss of
> > > > information since HTML, the HyperText MARKUP Language, is not being used
> > > > to mark up much.
> > > > - Replacing block elements (h1, h2, p) with a , in inline element.
> > > > What's with that?
> > > > - The W3C logos mean nothing to most people, and is simply expected by
> > > > those who do know what they represent.
>
> > > > --
> > > > jmm (hyphen) list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
> > > > (Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)
>
> > > Thanks everyone for your advice,
>
> > > I have spent the last 5 years teaching computer science in school, and
> > > have had enough.
> > > Then had a bright idea, you used to be a web designer, may be I should
> > > do that again.
> > > But that was in the days of the good old table and I am learning CSS
> > > stuff as a go along.
> > > Teaching does not (in my experience) allow time to learn interesting
> > > new stuff.
>
> > > I will try to make all of the recommended changes and if I feel brave
> > > post the site again for another going over.
>
> > > Regards and thanks again
>
> > > Barry.
>
> > You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> > web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
>
> Ahh, why I made this a new thread and posted it to these other groups
> i'm not quite sure but I will / have changed the subject line to make
> it read better.
> --
> Regards Chad.http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Thank Chad,

I have looked at the document and think I understand most of it.
Are there any good books on this subject?

Thanks

Barry

Re: Web Accessibility Checklist was Re: Please review my site

On Jun 27, 5:39 pm, "b...@motivateddesign.co.uk"
wrote:
> On Jun 27, 8:30 am, Chaddy2222 >
>
>
> sicur...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > On Jun 27, 5:20 pm, Chaddy2222 >
> > sicur...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > On Jun 27, 4:41 pm, "b...@motivateddesign.co.uk"
>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Jun 27, 2:04 am, Jim Moe wrote:
>
> > > > > b...@motivateddesign.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > > > > putting myself out on a limb.
> > > > > > i am just starting life as a freelance web designer, and would value
> > > > > > any (nice) feedback on my site
> > > > > >www.motivateddesign.co.uk
>
> > > > > Your graphics design and color scheme is quite nice, appealing. (That
> > > > > was nice.)
>
> > > > > Your page markup is not so good.
> > > > > - Use of XHTML, and why Transitional?
> > > > > Are you generating the Web pages from an XML source with XSLT? And is
> > > > > that same XML source generating print output or PDF? If not, there is no
> > > > > reason to use XHTML. Use HTML Strict instead.
> > > > > - The body text size is 12 px, 75% of my preferred size, and too damn
> > > > > small to read.
> > > > > - Fixed width design.
> > > > > - The layout degrades to unreadability in places when to font size is
> > > > > increased even by 120%. Particularly noticeable on the Services page.
> > > > > - Div-itis: Replacing standard markup elements with CSS-defined classes
> > > > > that do the same thing. E.g.: .h1, .h2., .h3. There is a net loss of
> > > > > information since HTML, the HyperText MARKUP Language, is not being used
> > > > > to mark up much.
> > > > > - Replacing block elements (h1, h2, p) with a , in inline element.
> > > > > What's with that?
> > > > > - The W3C logos mean nothing to most people, and is simply expected by
> > > > > those who do know what they represent.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > jmm (hyphen) list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
> > > > > (Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)
>
> > > > Thanks everyone for your advice,
>
> > > > I have spent the last 5 years teaching computer science in school, and
> > > > have had enough.
> > > > Then had a bright idea, you used to be a web designer, may be I should
> > > > do that again.
> > > > But that was in the days of the good old table and I am learning CSS
> > > > stuff as a go along.
> > > > Teaching does not (in my experience) allow time to learn interesting
> > > > new stuff.
>
> > > > I will try to make all of the recommended changes and if I feel brave
> > > > post the site again for another going over.
>
> > > > Regards and thanks again
>
> > > > Barry.
>
> > > You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> > > web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
>
> > Ahh, why I made this a new thread and posted it to these other groups
> > i'm not quite sure but I will / have changed the subject line to make
> > it read better.
> > --
> > Regards Chad.http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz
>
> Thank Chad,
>
> I have looked at the document and think I understand most of it.
> Are there any good books on this subject?
>
> Thanks
>
> Barry
Hi Bary, the full WCAG document can be found here http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/
and if you want a good general book on web design, then check out
http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com
I hope that helps.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Please review my site

On 27 Jun, 08:20, Chaddy2222
wrote:

> You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.

It's a good idea to study accessibility, but the W3C are not a good
resource for it. You'd be much better off with Joe Clark's book (free
online)

Re: Please review my site

On Jun 27, 11:00 am, Andy Dingley wrote:
> On 27 Jun, 08:20, Chaddy2222
> wrote:
>
> > You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> > web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
>
> It's a good idea to study accessibility, but the W3C are not a good
> resource for it. You'd be much better off with Joe Clark's book (free
> online)

Thanks for that,

I had a look at Joe Clark's book - The information looks good, but I
have trouble reading it because of the serif font used on screen.
I may just buy it.

Regards

Barry

Re: Please review my site

On Jun 27, 8:00 pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
> On 27 Jun, 08:20, Chaddy2222
> wrote:
>
> > You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> > web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
>
> It's a good idea to study accessibility, but the W3C are not a good
> resource for it. You'd be much better off with Joe Clark's book (free
> online)
Thanks for that suggestion Andy. I must say after Googleing Joe Clark,
I came across his article on WCAG 2.0 and found it interesting. After
reading parts of the final draft I actually did not think it was that
bad but after reading what J C said / wrote on the topic I is not
convinced that the new guidelines will be any good. Actually I thought
the 1.0 guidelines were bad enough about not being understand, but
these new ones will just not help anyone (from what I have read). How
the hell would a law enforcement agency decide on what all those long
worded statements on multimedia meant, (especially with cases
concerning where some thing are allowed or not).
In fact it could be said that these new guidelines are a step
backwards as they do not recommend the separation of presentation and
content.


--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Web Accessibility Checklist was Re: Please review my site

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:30:04 -0700, Chaddy2222
wrote:

>> You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
>> web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.

I've just noticed that the WCAG Samurai (which includes Joe Clark) have
recently published their errata to the WCAG guidelines
http://wcagsamurai.org/

This is an introduction to the errata (corrections) for the Web Content
Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 (WCAG 1). The errata are published by, and
can be attributed to, the WCAG Samurai, an independent group of
developers convened in 2006. We delivered these errata on 2007.06.07.

I just love this document, particularly the no-nonsense tone of the
intro 8-)
http://wcagsamurai.org/errata/intro.html

Re: Web Accessibility Checklist was Re: Please review my site

Andy Dingley wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:30:04 -0700, Chaddy2222
> wrote:
>
> >> You should also read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
> >> web accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
>
> I've just noticed that the WCAG Samurai (which includes Joe Clark) have
> recently published their errata to the WCAG guidelines
> http://wcagsamurai.org/
>
> This is an introduction to the errata (corrections) for the Web Content
> Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 (WCAG 1). The errata are published by, and
> can be attributed to, the WCAG Samurai, an independent group of
> developers convened in 2006. We delivered these errata on 2007.06.07.
>
> I just love this document, particularly the no-nonsense tone of the
> intro 8-)
> http://wcagsamurai.org/errata/intro.html
Hmmm, yes I had a read of that. It sounds good although one thing I am
not sure of is how exactly they want developers to make javascript and
such content accessible without placeing items in a

Re: Web Accessibility Checklist was Re: Please review my site

On 28 Jun, 08:38, Chaddy2222
wrote:

> Hmmm, yes I had a read of that. It sounds good although one thing I am
> not sure of is how exactly they want developers to make javascript and
> such content accessible without placeing items in a

Re: Web Accessibility Checklist was Re: Please review my site

On Jun 28, 8:22 pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
> On 28 Jun, 08:38, Chaddy2222
> wrote:
>
> > Hmmm, yes I had a read of that. It sounds good although one thing I am
> > not sure of is how exactly they want developers to make javascript and
> > such content accessible without placeing items in a

Re: Web Accessibility Checklist was Re: Please review my site

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:13:51 +0100
Andy Dingley wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:30:04 -0700, Chaddy2222
> wrote:
>
> >> You should also
> >> read,http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html web
> >> accessibility is now law in the UK as well as other countries.
>
> I've just noticed that the WCAG Samurai (which includes Joe Clark)
> have recently published their errata to the WCAG guidelines
> http://wcagsamurai.org/

It's a shame they show such deep tunnel-vision, and make leaps
of illogic from "XYZ is often abused" (or even "XYZ might be
suboptimal", in the case of serverside imagemaps) to "XYZ is banned".


--
Nick Kew

Application Development with Apache - the Apache Modules Book
http://www.apachetutor.org/

Re: Web Accessibility Checklist was Re: Please review my site

Nick Kew writes:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:13:51 +0100
> Andy Dingley wrote:
> > I've just noticed that the WCAG Samurai (which includes Joe Clark)
> > have recently published their errata to the WCAG guidelines
> > http://wcagsamurai.org/
>
> It's a shame they show such deep tunnel-vision, and make leaps
> of illogic from "XYZ is often abused" (or even "XYZ might be
> suboptimal", in the case of serverside imagemaps) to "XYZ is banned".

"Ignore all references to ¡Ènon-visual displays¡É or ¡Èmonochrome
displays.¡É Web accessibility is about people with disabilities, not
their equipment. A ¡Èdisplay¡É is not a person and does not need
accessibility."

This seems to me to be a *very* narrow view to take, too. To me,
device-independence of content is an important part of web
accessibility even if the goal is solely about people, and even if the
goal is solely about people, it should be about accommodating people's
specific requirements, and those requirements may not be ones
recognised as disabilities.

Example 1: I currently use Firefox and Lynx as my most common two
browsers. If I were to suffer from a motor disability that prevented
me from using a mouse effectively, I'd drop Firefox and keep
Lynx. Despite my vision remaining good, I still benefit very strongly
from good practice with colours in this case, solely because of the
display technology I would use.

Example 2: When I'm coding, I find (and I freely admit this is
probably very unusual) I'm much more efficient using lots of text
consoles and using Alt-n to switch between them, than I am with a
windowed environment (and especially not with the slow switching
between X and console). I therefore use text browsers rather a lot
when coding. I agree, the display is not me, but that doesn't mean
that I don't benefit considerably from sites that are accessible on
that display.

Example 3: If I only have a monochrome printer, and find it easier to
read pages printed (and perhaps expanded) than on screen.

Now, as it happens, in the specific case of colours, if you design it
so that it works for people with the particular disabilities
mentioned, it also works fine for people with different display
technology, so it's not a major problem. On the other hand, it seems
to be a worrying principle to set out.


Also, in their (correct) removal of most of the Priority 3 guidelines,
they seem to have liked the simplicity of getting rid of all of them
(to the level of MUST NOT) over making sense. For example: "13.9
Provide information about document collections..." is now marked with
a terse "Ignore" despite it being a generally good idea if you happen
to have document collections. Given that they say you must not comply
or attempt to comply with any Priority 3 guideline, this means that if
you do have a document collection, you must go out of your way to
avoid giving information about it, or fail to meet WCAG1+S

"13.6 Group related links ..." is ignored on the grounds that "Not all
sites or pages have related links" (which seems an incredible
non-sequitur: not all pages have non-text content, so should 1.1 also
be ignored?) and "[no element with relevant semantics]" (which I'd
have thought

made a reasonable go at in many cases)

Similarly, 9.4's errata "Do not attempt to create your own tab order"
seems to be based on a misunderstanding (albeit a very common one) of
what 9.4 "Create a logical tab order..." meant in the first place. The
common interpretation seems to be 'tabindex', but it could just as
easily refer to placing the elements into the document in an order
that gave a sensible tab order without the need for tabindex -
something that remains fairly important.


I'd also have liked to see some attempt to address the box ticking
nature of "compliance with WCAG1.0" rather than just replacing some of
the boxes.

--
Chris

Re: Web Accessibility Checklist was Re: Please review my site

Scripsit Andy Dingley:

> I've just noticed that the WCAG Samurai (which includes Joe Clark)
> have recently published their errata to the WCAG guidelines
> http://wcagsamurai.org/

Initially, I had high expectations, but I found no other author name but Joe
Clark, and that's ominous: an anonymous group issuing something that
purports to be authoritative. The word "errata" is frightening, too: that
word has long been abused by the W3C as a pseudo-term for sloppily written
documents that have an undefined status.

So I tuned down my expectations and wasn't really surprised at seeing very
wrong moves like banning all layout tables.

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/