My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it. I
replaced the Video card, but that's not it. It's probably the hard
drive or the motherboard.

I need my computer up and running pretty quick and rather than
thinking about it, I took it Microcenter to do a diagnostic.

Here's the silly question, 'How safe is my data?' ...ok, stop
laughing.

I have few questions.

If I ever did want to take my pc in to have it serviced, can I just
pull the hard drive? Can they diagnose a problem without the hard
drive? (unless it is the harddrive)

I'm thinking of starting an online business (haven't yet). What's the
best and most cost-effective way to do this and maintain security, and
get my pc up and running if this sort of thing happens in the future?
VMWare, backup or ghost software, RAID

What should I use?

Thanks,

Distressed Gabe.

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

On 2007-07-11, gabe wrote:
> My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it. I
> replaced the Video card, but that's not it. It's probably the hard
> drive or the motherboard.
>
> I need my computer up and running pretty quick and rather than
> thinking about it, I took it Microcenter to do a diagnostic.
>
> Here's the silly question, 'How safe is my data?' ...ok, stop
> laughing.
>
> I have few questions.
>
> If I ever did want to take my pc in to have it serviced, can I just
> pull the hard drive? Can they diagnose a problem without the hard
> drive? (unless it is the harddrive)

That shouldn't be a problem, but I'd call them beforehand just to
make sure. If they do insist on having a hard drive present in the
machine, see if you can dig up a spare drive somewhere to
temporarily put in the computer and install an OS on.

> I'm thinking of starting an online business (haven't yet). What's the
> best and most cost-effective way to do this and maintain security, and
> get my pc up and running if this sort of thing happens in the future?
> VMWare, backup or ghost software, RAID

VMware is an interesting idea if you need to ensure very low
downtime on your workstation. I've used it several times in a
similar capacity, on projects which required a very particular set
of applications or a highly configured operating system. If the
physical machine you're using gets borked you can move the whole
setup to another piece of hardware in a heartbeat.

Most of the time I simply rely on frequent on- and off-site backups
of my project itself, though, because not much of the stuff I do
requires a highly specialized development environment (beyond what I
already have on my other machines), and because I have a few extra
computers that I could restore a backup to and use in a pinch.

> What should I use?

A good UPS and surge suppressor, if you aren't already. A
line-interactive UPS has its power supply and its load connected
only indirectly; there is a transformer, a rectifier, a battery, and
an inverter separating the two. At the cost of electrical
efficiency, this characteristic makes the line-interactive UPS
especially good at protecting equipment against voltage
irregularities and even direct lightning strikes.

> Thanks,
>
> Distressed Gabe.

Good luck fixing your computer!

Mark

--
Mark Shroyer
http://markshroyer.com/

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

In article <1184149665.142071.313360@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
gabedog@gmail.com says...
> My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it. I
> replaced the Video card, but that's not it. It's probably the hard
> drive or the motherboard.

Your PC was not directly hit by Lightning, at least I'm assuming that
much, but was hit by a surge on either the AC line or a Modem line.

Typically this does not fry the Drives or CPU or RAM, but it will fry
the motherboard and any card/device the surge rode in on.

A Quality UPS would have prevented this.

> I need my computer up and running pretty quick and rather than
> thinking about it, I took it Microcenter to do a diagnostic.
>
> Here's the silly question, 'How safe is my data?' ...ok, stop
> laughing.

Anytime a repair shop has your PC they will typically format the drive
and reinstall the OS since that eliminates most of the OS related
problems. You should have been doing daily backups of anything
important. There have also been cases reported where Tech (from any
company) have snooped a drive, even though it's against the rules.

> I have few questions.
>
> If I ever did want to take my pc in to have it serviced, can I just
> pull the hard drive? Can they diagnose a problem without the hard
> drive? (unless it is the harddrive)

If the problem is related to hardware and just passing the BIOS Test,
then they can test without your drive. If the problem is related to your
installation of apps/OS then they need your drive to test with.

> I'm thinking of starting an online business (haven't yet). What's the
> best and most cost-effective way to do this and maintain security, and
> get my pc up and running if this sort of thing happens in the future?
> VMWare, backup or ghost software, RAID

LOL - Host your online business outside your home at a quality hosting
provider. At home, make FULL backups daily, keep at least 1 weeks worth
of them and a monthly tape, install a firewall (which is not the same as
a cheap NAT Router), have some other company provide the credit card
processing....

RAID is in case of a drive failure, it's not a backup method, it
strictly is in case of a SINGLE drive failure.

Ghost is good to copy a drive to an image or another drive.

VMWare - forget it, buy another computer.

BACKUPS - Tape or Multiple USB Drives.

> What should I use?

Multiple USB External drives, but that's not cheap, Tape, but it's every
expensive...

GET A UPS (APC Backups 700 or larger) and make sure that the outlet is
grounded and that all COMPUTER parts are connected to the UPS, even your
printer needs to be on the SURGE protection side.



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Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

Leythos writes:

> In article <1184149665.142071.313360@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> gabedog@gmail.com says...
> > My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it. I
> > replaced the Video card, but that's not it. It's probably the hard
> > drive or the motherboard.
>
> Your PC was not directly hit by Lightning, at least I'm assuming that
> much, but was hit by a surge on either the AC line or a Modem line.
>
> Typically this does not fry the Drives or CPU or RAM, but it will fry
> the motherboard and any card/device the surge rode in on.
>
> A Quality UPS would have prevented this.

I'm afraid this is a naive statement for several reasons.

For one, many UPS's actually have less voltage surge energy handling
than quality surge suppressors (these are rated in Joules, APC specs
these for comparison). Compare a Backups Pro 650's surge rating to,
say, a Surgearrest Pro strip.

Second, when it comes to lightning, no little bits of MOV are going to
defeat the energy in a close lightning strikes voltage signature
induced on the lines. Without knowing whwere the OP lives, how their
power is fed, the geography of the area, where the strike was, saying
unqualified "a quality ups would have prevented this" is foolish.

Finally it's not terribly uncommon to take the hit via an attached
modem telephone cable, or a network cable coupled to a cable modem or
DSL line. Electric lines are typically far more succeptible because
in areas of overhead lines, they're far more exposed and uninsulated
on the distribution end, but few people implement any MOV protection
at all on their phone lines, co-ax, or network cables.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

On 2007-07-11, Todd H. wrote:
> Leythos writes:
>> A Quality UPS would have prevented this.
>
> I'm afraid this is a naive statement for several reasons.
>
> For one, many UPS's actually have less voltage surge energy handling
> than quality surge suppressors (these are rated in Joules, APC specs
> these for comparison). Compare a Backups Pro 650's surge rating to,
> say, a Surgearrest Pro strip.
>
> Second, when it comes to lightning, no little bits of MOV are going to
> defeat the energy in a close lightning strikes voltage signature
> induced on the lines. Without knowing whwere the OP lives, how their
> power is fed, the geography of the area, where the strike was, saying
> unqualified "a quality ups would have prevented this" is foolish.

With respect the cheapest consumer-grade offline UPSs, you're
correct -- their surge suppression capabilities are fundamentally no
different than those of a surge suppressing power strip. On the
other hand, a quality line-interactive UPS should be able to stop a
lightning surge in the power lines from damaging equipment.

> Finally it's not terribly uncommon to take the hit via an attached
> modem telephone cable, or a network cable coupled to a cable modem or
> DSL line. Electric lines are typically far more succeptible because
> in areas of overhead lines, they're far more exposed and uninsulated
> on the distribution end, but few people implement any MOV protection
> at all on their phone lines, co-ax, or network cables.

Telephone lines are particularly vulnerable. The only hardware I've
ever lost to lightning was a modem.

--
Mark Shroyer
http://markshroyer.com/

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

In article <84bqejko88.fsf@ripco.com>, comphelp@toddh.net says...
> Leythos writes:
>
> > In article <1184149665.142071.313360@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> > gabedog@gmail.com says...
> > > My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it. I
> > > replaced the Video card, but that's not it. It's probably the hard
> > > drive or the motherboard.
> >
> > Your PC was not directly hit by Lightning, at least I'm assuming that
> > much, but was hit by a surge on either the AC line or a Modem line.
> >
> > Typically this does not fry the Drives or CPU or RAM, but it will fry
> > the motherboard and any card/device the surge rode in on.
> >
> > A Quality UPS would have prevented this.
>
> I'm afraid this is a naive statement for several reasons.
>
> For one, many UPS's actually have less voltage surge energy handling
> than quality surge suppressors (these are rated in Joules, APC specs
> these for comparison). Compare a Backups Pro 650's surge rating to,
> say, a Surgearrest Pro strip.
>
> Second, when it comes to lightning, no little bits of MOV are going to
> defeat the energy in a close lightning strikes voltage signature
> induced on the lines. Without knowing whwere the OP lives, how their
> power is fed, the geography of the area, where the strike was, saying
> unqualified "a quality ups would have prevented this" is foolish.
>
> Finally it's not terribly uncommon to take the hit via an attached
> modem telephone cable, or a network cable coupled to a cable modem or
> DSL line. Electric lines are typically far more succeptible because
> in areas of overhead lines, they're far more exposed and uninsulated
> on the distribution end, but few people implement any MOV protection
> at all on their phone lines, co-ax, or network cables.

And if you buy a Quality UPS device they will have Network and Phone
jacks in them to provide protection for those sources.

In the 30 years I've been building networks and hardware, even with just
MOV's for protection, I've never had a device damaged by a surge, and
certainly none were damaged on a QUALITY UPS while other devices on the
same AC Line that were not protected were damaged.

So, again, and you can count on w_tom trying to dismiss all of this, a
Quality UPS would probably have saved his entire system.

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Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking atit.

Leythos wrote:

> GET A UPS (APC Backups 700 or larger) and make sure that the outlet is
> grounded and that all COMPUTER parts are connected to the UPS, even your
> printer needs to be on the SURGE protection side.

Most UPS's clearly state that laser printers must NOT be connected to
the UPS. I believe the inductive nature of the load can cause problems.

Bogwitch.

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:27:45 -0000, gabe wrote:

> I need my computer up and running pretty quick and rather than
> thinking about it, I took it Microcenter to do a diagnostic.
>
> Here's the silly question, 'How safe is my data?' ...ok, stop
> laughing.
>
> I have few questions.
>
> If I ever did want to take my pc in to have it serviced, can I just
> pull the hard drive? Can they diagnose a problem without the hard
> drive? (unless it is the harddrive)
>
> I'm thinking of starting an online business (haven't yet).

Don't.

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:20:49 -0400, Leythos wrote:

> much, but was hit by a surge on either the AC line or a Modem line.
>
> Typically this does not fry the Drives or CPU or RAM, but it will fry
> the motherboard and any card/device the surge rode in on.
>
> A Quality UPS would have prevented this.

Unless you are unable to use the grounding in/outs as has been my case
several times.

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:40:17 -0400, Leythos wrote:

> And if you buy a Quality UPS device they will have Network and Phone
> jacks in them to provide protection for those sources.

And often won't allow those lines to work properly, especially ADSL.

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

Leythos writes:

> In the 30 years I've been building networks and hardware, even with
> just MOV's for protection, I've never had a device damaged by a
> surge, and certainly none were damaged on a QUALITY UPS while other
> devices on the same AC Line that were not protected were damaged.
>
> So, again, and you can count on w_tom trying to dismiss all of this, a
> Quality UPS would probably have saved his entire system.

"Would probably" I can agree with, adding "provided the strike wasn't
too direct."

But that's not what you originally said, but folks do make
mistakes--even the mighty Leythos.

--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

In article <841wfesnw9.fsf@ripco.com>, comphelp@toddh.net says...
> Leythos writes:
>
> > In the 30 years I've been building networks and hardware, even with
> > just MOV's for protection, I've never had a device damaged by a
> > surge, and certainly none were damaged on a QUALITY UPS while other
> > devices on the same AC Line that were not protected were damaged.
> >
> > So, again, and you can count on w_tom trying to dismiss all of this, a
> > Quality UPS would probably have saved his entire system.
>
> "Would probably" I can agree with, adding "provided the strike wasn't
> too direct."
>
> But that's not what you originally said, but folks do make
> mistakes--even the mighty Leythos.

Then you appear to have made the mistake of not reading my reply, here
is the part you missed:

"Your PC was not directly hit by Lightning, at least I'm assuming that
much, but was hit by a surge on either the AC line or a Modem line."

So, again, a Quality UPS device on a proper AC outlet would have
protected his computer - as all connections would have been filtered,
and the instructions in most quality UPS's identify those connections.

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Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

On Jul 11, 3:55 pm, Ari wrote:
> Unless you are unable to use the grounding in/outs as has been my case
> several times.

When effective protectors are earthed, installation of that earthing
wire has some fundamental requirements. For example, that wire must
be short to achieve low impedance. Wire length (not wire gauge) is a
major factor. Wire must have no sharp bends. Wire separated from all
other wires. Ground wire not inside metallic conduit. No splices.

Now look at a ground wire to that UPS. Maybe 50 feet from breaker
box; longer to earth ground. That is far too long. Wire that must
have no sharp bends instead has tens of numerous sharp bends - some
that are even 180 degree bends. Wire bundled with numerous other
wires meaning surges can be induced on those other wires. Numerous
splices.

How many times must that ground wire violate basic requirements
before we admit the plug-in UPS has no earthing? And still we have
not confirmed that a single point earth ground exists. Single point
earthing being THE most critical component in any protection 'system'.

That UPS manufacturer never discusses this. So we review his
numerical specifications. Where does it list protection for each type
of surge? Why no such claim? It does imply protection from a type of
surge that typically does not cause damage. But the type that finds
earth ground, destructively via an appliance? Not even mentioned.

No wonder its manufacturer does not discuss earthing. No wonder its
manufacture hopes you will assume that plug-in UPS protects from all
types of surges. That manufacturer simply forgot to mention some
absolutely essential facts.

Those whose expertise is board swapping with deny all this. But a
days worth of reading defines protection and features that make
direct strikes irrelevant. In each case, what do industry
professionals, recommendations from Standards organizations,
commercial broadcasting experience, and even Ben Franklin's
demonstration - what is required in every case? Earth ground. Two
posts are in can.internet.highspeed on 22 Jun 2007 and 28 Jun
entitled "Of lottery tickets and lightning" in:
http://tinyurl.com/32v3le

Why are electronics damaged? Lightning seeks earth ground. If not
earthed before entering a building, then lightning may overwhelm
protection inside that appliances. Did they also forget to mention
protection already inside all appliances? But if lightning is
permitted a path to earth via an electronic appliance (a direct
lightning strike), then damage can result.

We don't stop or absorb what 3 miles of sky could not stop. Only
'magic protectors' claim to do that. The UPS is promoted as if it
stops that 3 mile electric path. Meanwhile, real world protectors
shunt (connect, clamp, divert, connect) lightning to earth before the
surge can enter a building. What defines protection? Single point
earth ground.

Lightning damage to electronics is a direct strike. Protection
already inside electronics make those lesser events irrelevant. If
not earthed before entering a building, then electronics damage is
directly traceable to human failure. A protector is only as effective
as its earth ground. No single point earthing means no effective
protection.

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

What Leythos calls 'building' is really nothing more than 'rack and
stack'. His knowledge of electronics is almost trivial. His
experience is based upon swapping parts until something works. That
will be demonstrated here and in other posts.

For example, Leythos suggests a surge entered on a phone line?
Why? Telco earths an effective 'whole house' type protector on every
phone line - for free. How would a surge enter on phone line? First
lightning must bypass AC electric lines to get to phone line. Then it
must ignore earthing from a telco provided protector. Finally, to
damage a computer, first, it forms a conducting circuit to earth.
Incoming on telephone line, through modem, through motherboard, then
out to earth ground via table top, AC electric wire, etc. Right out
of primary school science - first a complete circuit must exist before
electricity (a surge) can flow.

Most surges on phone line are leaving appliance to earth ground via
that telephone line protector. Phone lines are an outgoing path to
earth ground. Surges that most often harm modems are incoming on AC
electric. No 'whole house' protector on AC electric to earth a surge
means incoming on AC electric from highest wires on utility poles.
Electricity continues through computer and modem to earth ground via
phone line protector. Now we have a complete circuit. Now something
in that direct strike circuit path may be harmed.

Why is this relevant to gabe's post? Why would a surge harm his
disk drive and data? Do surges hit that drive like a wave on the
beach? Not according to primary school science. To have electricity,
a surge must have both an incoming and outgoing path. Notice a surge
also had incoming paths to keyboard, memory, CPU, etc. Why were those
items also not damaged? No outgoing path - no damage - just like disk
drive.

Leythos also posts this:
> Anytime a repair shop has your PC they will typically format the
> drive and reinstall the OS since that eliminates most of the OS
> related problems.

Lightning did not destroy or change the OS. Responsible shops would
not automatically reload Windows. But Leythos would. Leythos is a
card swapper. He will keep changing things until something works -
shotgunning. He does not first learn 'why' due to insufficient
electronics knowledge. Leythos would automatically reload Windows.
Leythos also has no idea how or why surges do damage.

As Todd H accurately noted, plug-in UPS have even less protection
numbers than in many $10 power strip protectors. But Leythos somehow
magically knows that same but weaker circuit inside a UPS is
superior. Don't take Todd's or my word for it. Look at the UPS
numbers. Not from color glossies. Refer to the full page of
numerical specifications. How many joules? Notice no earth ground
wire and no mention of earthing? Why then install minimally
sufficient joules? They don't claim to protect from a type of surge
that typically destroys electronics - a direct lightning strike. So
they also undersize the joules. View the numbers.

Installed were only enough joules so that Leythos can assume
protection must exist. They know shotgunners such as Leythos will
promote their product blindly - not bother to first learn how
electronics work. Leythos even ignored the numbers.

An effective protector is simply a connecting device to earth
ground. It does not stop or absorb what three miles of sky could not
- as Leythos claims. An effective 'whole house' protector earths
direct strikes to computers as Ben Franklin's lightning rod earthed
direct strikes to church steeples. Computers are damaged by direct
lightning strikes. If that surge current is not earthed before
entering the building, then it will find destructive paths through
household appliances. It that surge current is not earthed before
striking a church steeple, damage will result, for same reasons.

Whether a lightning rod or protector - it is only a connecting
device to earth ground. Protection is earth ground. No earth ground
(ie. that UPS) means no effective protection. Those who never learned
how electricity works will deny all this.

Unfortunately Leythos is correct. Many certified computer techs will
automatically reload Windows. One need not even know how electricity
works to pass the A+ Certification tests - to repair computers as
Leythos does.

Your disk data should be intact if a direct lightning strike did not
use the drive as a path to earth. Direct strikes are circuits from a
cloud to earth ground. Future protection means a human must install
an earthing path so that lightning need not be earthed via the
computer.

What do 'quality' UPS devices do for surge protection? Those
'building wide' UPSes are located adjacent to and have that short
connection to earth; therefore can provide surge protection. Those
'quality' UPSes are not what Leythos is promoting.

On Jul 11, 2:40 pm, Leythos wrote:
> And if you buy a Quality UPS device they will have Network and Phone
> jacks in them to provide protection for those sources.
>
> In the 30 years I've been building networks and hardware, even with just
> MOV's for protection, I've never had a device damaged by a surge, and
> certainly none were damaged on a QUALITY UPS while other devices on the
> same AC Line that were not protected were damaged.
>
> So, again, and you can count on w_tom trying to dismiss all of this, a
> Quality UPS would probably have saved his entire system.

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

On Jul 11, 3:43 pm, Bogwitch wrote:
> Leythos wrote:
>> GET A UPS (APC Backups 700 or larger) and make sure that the outlet is
>> grounded and that all COMPUTER parts are connected to the UPS, even
>> your printer needs to be on the SURGE protection side.
>
> Most UPS's clearly state that laser printers must NOT be connected to
> the UPS. I believe the inductive nature of the load can cause problems.

Why would Leythos recommend printers on a UPS? He does not have
basic electrical knowledge. It is called a 'computer grade' UPS.
When in battery backup mode, UPS electricity can be so 'dirty' as to
even harm small electric motors - such as in some printers.

Some numbers that board swappers would not understand. This 120
volt UPS, for example, outputs two 200 volt square waves with a spike
of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Manufacturer calls
this a modified sine wave. This is 'clean' electricity? Clean enough
for computers because computers have robust internal protection. (Same
internal protection that also requires direct lightning strikes to be
earthed before entering the building.) That same UPS electricity may
harm other appliances such as small electric motors. But not harm
computers that are so robust.

Bogwitch accurately corrected Leythos. Printers should not be
powered via a computer grade UPS. If Leythos had basic electrical
knowledge, then he would have also known WHY some recommend no
printers on their UPS outputs.

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

In article <1184198653.213975.193340@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
w_tom1@usa.net says...
> As Todd H accurately noted, plug-in UPS have even less protection
> numbers than in many $10 power strip protectors

As normal, you failed to read - and I clearly mentioned Quality devices
which you always run from. You keep thinking that I'm talking about a
Belkin UPS or some piece of crap unit - but when you were confronted
about a quality device, specific part number of APC, you diverted from
answering and never commented about it again.

You can't even provide the part number for your mythical device from
Lowes.....

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Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

In article <1184199007.269309.64160@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
w_tom1@usa.net says...
> Why would Leythos recommend printers on a UPS? He does not have
> basic electrical knowledge. It is called a 'computer grade' UPS.
> When in battery backup mode, UPS electricity can be so 'dirty' as to
> even harm small electric motors - such as in some printers.

LOL w_tom, only an idiot would connect a UPS battery connection to a
printer, knowing that the printer is going to draw more current than the
UPS can provide and still get the computer safely shutdown. My laser
printer draws 9A, which kicks the protective breaker on the UPS - so,
your claim that the output would damage the "motors" is more of your BS,
as the breaker would kick before any damage happens.

Keep trying to tell people that the world is wrong, that all of the
Electrical Engineering groups are wrong, that the UPS's do nothing,
you're only hurting YOUR image.

UPS's, the quality ones, connected to a properly grounded outlet in
homes, will protect devices connected to them, many people see it every
day...

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Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

"Leythos" wrote in message
news:MPG.20fea31b3b817c099897c2@adfree.Usenet.com...

> Multiple USB External drives, but that's not cheap

You haven't been looking at the ads lately, have you? Those things are
getting dirt cheap.

The problem is that they are rewritable. When you loose something, and want
to restore it from backup, you are under pressure and prone to make
mistakes. Unless you have a separate I/T department with well established
backup and recovery procedures, rewritable backup media is very risky. If
at all possible, backup to something that is write once. If not, keep at
least one copy of your backup in a place that is hard to get to, like a
safety deposit box in the next town. That way you at least have a chance to
settle down before you get your hands on the backup.

...

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

"w_tom" wrote in message
news:1184198653.213975.193340@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...

> For example, Leythos suggests a surge entered on a phone line?
> Why? Telco earths an effective 'whole house' type protector on every
> phone line - for free. How would a surge enter on phone line?

WOW - you really don't have a clue how lightning damages electronics, do
you?

Not only is nothing on the outside of the house going to matter, long lines
from your protective device are also a problem. No "Quality UPS" is going
to protect you if you have long lines from the UPS to the device.

Phone lines are especially vulnerable for three reasons; 1) they are
relatively high impedance, 2) the circuitry directly connected to the phone
lines tends to be more fragile than that connected to the mains and 3) phone
lines are likely to be longer than power lines.

That "whole house" protector will protect you from a strike miles away, but
the power transformers every so often on those poles will do the same for
the power lines. A nearby strike will derive almost no benefit.

...

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

w_tom wrote:


For reliable information on surges and surge protection try:
http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide_FINALpublishedversion_M ay051.pdf
- the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from
lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to
AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005
(the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic
engineers in the US).
And:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl. pdf
- this is the "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to
protect the appliances in your home" published by the US National
Institute of Standards and Technology in 2001

The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The
NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.


>
> For example, Leythos suggests a surge entered on a phone line?
> Why? Telco earths an effective 'whole house' type protector on every
> phone line - for free. How would a surge enter on phone line? First
> lightning must bypass AC electric lines to get to phone line. Then it
> must ignore earthing from a telco provided protector. Finally, to
> damage a computer, first, it forms a conducting circuit to earth.
> Incoming on telephone line, through modem, through motherboard, then
> out to earth ground via table top, AC electric wire, etc. Right out
> of primary school science - first a complete circuit must exist before
> electricity (a surge) can flow.

According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment
most frequently damaged by lightning is
computers with a modem connection
TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV
connections).
All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires.

An example of how a surge can enter on a signal wire is illustrated in
the IEEE guide starting pdf page 40. A surge comes in on a CATV service.
The CATV entry block is not connected with a short ground wire to the
power service earthing wire at the power service. Surge current on the
long ground wire creates a high voltage between power and CATV wires
causing damage. The same can happen with the phone entry. Entry
protection blocks should be adjacent to the power service with short
interconnect wires. (If not the IEEE guide says "the only effective way
of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport protector.")

>
> An effective protector is simply a connecting device to earth
> ground. It does not stop or absorb what three miles of sky could not
> - as Leythos claims. An effective 'whole house' protector earths
> direct strikes to computers as Ben Franklin's lightning rod earthed
> direct strikes to church steeples. Computers are damaged by direct
> lightning strikes. If that surge current is not earthed before
> entering the building, then it will find destructive paths through
> household appliances.
>
> Whether a lightning rod or protector - it is only a connecting
> device to earth ground. Protection is earth ground. No earth ground
> (ie. that UPS) means no effective protection. Those who never learned
> how electricity works will deny all this.

The 6 EEs that wrote the IEEE and NIST guides deny all this, as applied
to plug-in suppressors. And no one says suppressors "stop" or "absorb".

w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection
must use earthing. Thus in his view plug-in suppressors (which are not
well earthed) can not possibly work. The IEEE guide explains plug-in
suppressors work by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires (signal and power)
to the common ground at the suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work
primarily by earthing. The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere.

Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same
plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires need to go through the
suppressor. External connections, like phone, also need to go through
the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor prevents
damaging voltages between power and signal wires. These multiport
suppressors are described in the IEEE guide. [Leythos was correct that
the printer needed to connect to the UPS. I read his post as connecting
the printer to the UPS surge protected outlet, not the UPS outlet.]

Plug-in suppressor ratings range from junk to very high. UPSs can have
the same protection as plug-in suppressors, but suppression ratings are
probably not as high as a good plug-in suppressor. Any suppressor in the
US should be listed under UL1449.

--
bud--

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

In article , xpyttl_NOSPAM@earthling.net
says...
> "Leythos" wrote in message
> news:MPG.20fea31b3b817c099897c2@adfree.Usenet.com...
>
> > Multiple USB External drives, but that's not cheap
>
> You haven't been looking at the ads lately, have you? Those things are
> getting dirt cheap.

A LTO-2 tape does about 400GB compressed, a 200GB USB External drive,
with Fan built into it for proper cooling, is over $150, so they are not
cheap.

If you want to use a Cheap USB drive then accept loss/corruption and you
won't have a complaint.

> The problem is that they are rewritable. When you loose something, and want
> to restore it from backup, you are under pressure and prone to make
> mistakes.

Only the terminally incompetent mistakes "Restore" tab for the "Backup"
tab.

> Unless you have a separate I/T department with well established
> backup and recovery procedures, rewritable backup media is very risky. If
> at all possible, backup to something that is write once. If not, keep at
> least one copy of your backup in a place that is hard to get to, like a
> safety deposit box in the next town. That way you at least have a chance to
> settle down before you get your hands on the backup.

LOL - and I suppose tapes are unreliable too :)

Write Once media has not gained the capacity that USB drives or Tape
has, so it will not be viable for most people for a LONG time.

While burning to DVD-R or DVD-RW is a good option, it's slow, small, and
can still be broken easily.

If the person is likely to mistakenly overwrite their backup, they are
likely to not have a good backup on any media.

--
Leythos - spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 to email me)

Learn more about PCBUTTS1 and his antics and ethic and his perversion
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Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 19:43:53 GMT, Bogwitch wrote:

> Most UPS's clearly state that laser printers must NOT be connected to
> the UPS. I believe the inductive nature of the load can cause problems.

And most laser printer mfgs concur.

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

On Jul 12, 8:59 am, "xpyttl" wrote:
> WOW - you really don't have a clue how lightning damages electronics, do
> you?
>
> Not only is nothing on the outside of the house going to matter, long lines
> from your protective device are also a problem. No "Quality UPS" is going
> to protect you if you have long lines from the UPS to the device.

All nice rationalizations. Therefore phone service is routinely
down for four days as the telco replaces a switching computer
connected to overhead wires all over town. Even late 1950s Bell
research demonstrated that electronic switch can sufffer a hundred
surges during one thunderstom. So what did telcos do?

Every wire in every cable is connected to earth ground, either
directly or via a 'whole house' protector, where wire enters the
building. That earthing connection is short. The telco prefers
separation between protectors and computer to be up to 50 meters.
That longer separation enhances protection.

But xpyttl says telcos have it all wrong. Somehow he knows that
solutions standard in Central Offices all over the world don't work.
Clearly a $100 UPS without earting is a superior solution. Clearly we
"don't have a clue how lightning damages electronics". We have been
doing it all wrong for 100 years. Only xpyttl can save us from our
mistakes?

Best protector is as close to single point earth ground as is
possible. That distance between protector and electronics makes even
better protection when distance is many times longer than the earthing
connection. Superior protector are short to earth ground and distant
from electronics.

Meanwhile, we have been discussing 'secondary protection.
Homeowners are strongly adviced to also inspect their 'primary'
protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/grounding_and_bonding.html

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

In article <1184304018.478718.87490@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, w_tom1
@usa.net says...
> But xpyttl says telcos have it all wrong. Somehow he knows that
> solutions standard in Central Offices all over the world don't work.
> Clearly a $100 UPS without earting is a superior solution. Clearly we
> "don't have a clue how lightning damages electronics". We have been
> doing it all wrong for 100 years. Only xpyttl can save us from our
> mistakes?

And there you go again w_tom, making crap up. A Quality UPS is going to
always require a good ground connection, in fact, most of them will
alarm if there is no ground.

So, keep ranting and ignoring facts, I don't see what you gain by it.
You still have not presented the part number for your Mythical $50 whole
house protector that anyone can buy at Lowes, still not explained why
devices protected by a Quality UPS were protected while those that were
not were damaged.... Why not one device in my home connected to a UPS
has ever been damaged while every house around me has had some form of
device damaged at least once in the last 20 years....

--
Leythos - spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 to email me)

Learn more about PCBUTTS1 and his antics and ethic and his perversion
with Porn and Filth. Just take a look at some of the FILTH he's created
and put on his website: http://www.futurehardware.in/595578-2.htm all
exposed to children (the link I've include does not directly display his
filth). You can find the same information by googling for 'PCBUTTS1' and
'exposed to kids'.

Re: My PC was hit with lightning and now Microcenter is looking at it.

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:46:32 -0400, xpyttl wrote:

> The problem is that they are rewritable. When you loose something, and want
> to restore it from backup, you are under pressure and prone to make
> mistakes. Unless you have a separate I/T department with well established
> backup and recovery procedures, rewritable backup media is very risky. If
> at all possible, backup to something that is write once. If not, keep at
> least one copy of your backup in a place that is hard to get to, like a
> safety deposit box in the next town.

Or a wireless external drive hidden in a concrete wall accessing the
remote drive from a USB bootable w/key