Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Check it out:
http://www.neopets.com/games/play.phtml?game_id=877

It uses an ActiveX plugin called 3D Life Player by Virtools. Pretty
slick stuff. I'm wondering if and when Flash will take the leap into
3D content.

The interesting thing is that since Neopets is starting to use it for
their games...well that basically equates to MILLIONS of users
worldwide who will install the plugin, making it a fairly viable
option as far as web content.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> Check it out:
> http://www.neopets.com/games/play.phtml?game_id=877
>
> It uses an ActiveX plugin called 3D Life Player by Virtools. Pretty
> slick stuff. I'm wondering if and when Flash will take the leap into
> 3D content.
>
> The interesting thing is that since Neopets is starting to use it for
> their games...well that basically equates to MILLIONS of users
> worldwide who will install the plugin, making it a fairly viable
> option as far as web content.

There's a really good 3D api we're playing with right now for Flash
(PaperVision3D) that doens't require a plug in. You should check it out.


I can't runthe neopets thing as it requires ActiveX, and I'm one of the
10% of people on an Apple. And don't forget the 50% of people in Europe
who don't use IE any more... plus Neopets is not actually that popular.
1 million is a tiny drop in the ocean when it comes to the 800 million
web users out there... If they're serious, they need to come up with a
FireFox version as people are becoming more cautious about downloading
"new" plugins.


Neopets isn't that popular (it's so yesterday!) :)


I will try it at the studio where we have a PC!


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 26, 5:56 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
> Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> > Check it out:
> >http://www.neopets.com/games/play.phtml?game_id=877
>
> > It uses an ActiveX plugin called 3D Life Player by Virtools. Pretty
> > slick stuff. I'm wondering if and when Flash will take the leap into
> > 3D content.
>
> > The interesting thing is that since Neopets is starting to use it for
> > their games...well that basically equates to MILLIONS of users
> > worldwide who will install the plugin, making it a fairly viable
> > option as far as web content.
>
> There's a really good 3D api we're playing with right now for Flash
> (PaperVision3D) that doens't require a plug in. You should check it out.
>
> I can't runthe neopets thing as it requires ActiveX, and I'm one of the
> 10% of people on an Apple. And don't forget the 50% of people in Europe
> who don't use IE any more... plus Neopets is not actually that popular.
> 1 million is a tiny drop in the ocean when it comes to the 800 million
> web users out there... If they're serious, they need to come up with a
> FireFox version as people are becoming more cautious about downloading
> "new" plugins.
>
> Neopets isn't that popular (it's so yesterday!) :)
>
> I will try it at the studio where we have a PC!
>
I tend to agree with you about the fact that people are not as willing
to install plug-ins anymore. I am not sure on the 50% figgure for non
IE users, but I would not be shocked by that as many people are not
happy with IE7 and want what it has to offer but need a better browser
(they notice that FF have been doing what IE now does for years and
have swiched).
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

"Chaddy2222" wrote in message

>>
> I tend to agree with you about the fact that people are not as willing
> to install plug-ins anymore. I am not sure on the 50% figgure for non
> IE users, but I would not be shocked by that as many people are not
> happy with IE7 and want what it has to offer but need a better browser
> (they notice that FF have been doing what IE now does for years and
> have swiched).
> --

On our site, in the US, with about 1.7 million visitor (12% international)
in the last 6 weeks, we saw 72% IE (45% of total visits in IE 6, 26% of
total visits IE 7, 1% IE 5), 18% Firefox, 3.5% Safari, the rest in mostly
other Mozilla based browsers. So although we have a higher percent of
Firefox visitors than the norm in theUS, adoption of IE 7 is outpacing
adoption of Firefox.

Windows OS accounts for 89% of visits (including 25,000 visitors using
Windows 98 and 514 visitors still using Windows 95), BTW, Mac about 4.5%,
all flavors of Linux is about .5%.

Does it show I've been analyzing stats in preparation for a site redesign?
;-)

Fred Doyle

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Chaddy2222 wrote:
> On Jul 26, 5:56 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
>> Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
>>> Check it out:
>>> http://www.neopets.com/games/play.phtml?game_id=877
>>> It uses an ActiveX plugin called 3D Life Player by Virtools. Pretty
>>> slick stuff. I'm wondering if and when Flash will take the leap into
>>> 3D content.
>>> The interesting thing is that since Neopets is starting to use it for
>>> their games...well that basically equates to MILLIONS of users
>>> worldwide who will install the plugin, making it a fairly viable
>>> option as far as web content.
>> There's a really good 3D api we're playing with right now for Flash
>> (PaperVision3D) that doens't require a plug in. You should check it out.
>>
>> I can't runthe neopets thing as it requires ActiveX, and I'm one of the
>> 10% of people on an Apple. And don't forget the 50% of people in Europe
>> who don't use IE any more... plus Neopets is not actually that popular.
>> 1 million is a tiny drop in the ocean when it comes to the 800 million
>> web users out there... If they're serious, they need to come up with a
>> FireFox version as people are becoming more cautious about downloading
>> "new" plugins.
>>
>> Neopets isn't that popular (it's so yesterday!) :)
>>
>> I will try it at the studio where we have a PC!
>>
> I tend to agree with you about the fact that people are not as willing
> to install plug-ins anymore. I am not sure on the 50% figgure for non
> IE users, but I would not be shocked by that as many people are not

Given between 5-10% of European users are using Opera or Safari, and
then this:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,134615-pg,1/article.html

I think 40-50% isn't far off the mark for Europe. Our own stats on our
EU servers suggest around 35% non-IE, and growing.


> happy with IE7 and want what it has to offer but need a better browser
> (they notice that FF have been doing what IE now does for years and
> have swiched).

I dislike Fx's sluggish rendering, but generally it is faster than IE in
my experience. But then, I don't have a PC, so don't get to use it THAT
often :)


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Fred Doyle wrote:
> "Chaddy2222" wrote in message
>
>> I tend to agree with you about the fact that people are not as willing
>> to install plug-ins anymore. I am not sure on the 50% figgure for non
>> IE users, but I would not be shocked by that as many people are not
>> happy with IE7 and want what it has to offer but need a better browser
>> (they notice that FF have been doing what IE now does for years and
>> have swiched).
>> --
>
> On our site, in the US, with about 1.7 million visitor (12% international)
> in the last 6 weeks, we saw 72% IE (45% of total visits in IE 6, 26% of
> total visits IE 7, 1% IE 5), 18% Firefox, 3.5% Safari, the rest in mostly
> other Mozilla based browsers. So although we have a higher percent of
> Firefox visitors than the norm in theUS, adoption of IE 7 is outpacing
> adoption of Firefox.
>
> Windows OS accounts for 89% of visits (including 25,000 visitors using
> Windows 98 and 514 visitors still using Windows 95), BTW, Mac about 4.5%,
> all flavors of Linux is about .5%.
>
> Does it show I've been analyzing stats in preparation for a site redesign?
> ;-)
>
> Fred Doyle
>
>

Hehhe. We're launching one HUGE site in January and have gone down the
100% Flash 9 route ;) We looked at the server stats and decided we
didn't care. Our product is great! People will upgrade :P

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

"SpaceGirl" wrote

>
> Hehhe. We're launching one HUGE site in January and have gone down the
> 100% Flash 9 route ;) We looked at the server stats and decided we didn't
> care. Our product is great! People will upgrade :P
>
> --

I'd love to be in that position, but we've got very different market
considerations, including government accessibility requirements. We've got
such a broad set of contituents it is amazing. No other market is really
like this one.

Fred Doyle

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Fred Doyle wrote:
> "SpaceGirl" wrote
>
>> Hehhe. We're launching one HUGE site in January and have gone down the
>> 100% Flash 9 route ;) We looked at the server stats and decided we didn't
>> care. Our product is great! People will upgrade :P
>>
>> --
>
> I'd love to be in that position, but we've got very different market
> considerations, including government accessibility requirements. We've got
> such a broad set of contituents it is amazing. No other market is really
> like this one.
>
> Fred Doyle

We've done work for the government before, so I know what you mean :(

The downside of all this Flashy stuff is it's untried, and very new, and
we're having to learn like crazy :(

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:16:15 +0100, SpaceGirl
wrote:

>Chaddy2222 wrote:
>> On Jul 26, 5:56 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
>>> Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
>>>> Check it out:
>>>> http://www.neopets.com/games/play.phtml?game_id=877
>>>> It uses an ActiveX plugin called 3D Life Player by Virtools. Pretty
>>>> slick stuff. I'm wondering if and when Flash will take the leap into
>>>> 3D content.
>>>> The interesting thing is that since Neopets is starting to use it for
>>>> their games...well that basically equates to MILLIONS of users
>>>> worldwide who will install the plugin, making it a fairly viable
>>>> option as far as web content.
>>> There's a really good 3D api we're playing with right now for Flash
>>> (PaperVision3D) that doens't require a plug in. You should check it out.
>>>
>>> I can't runthe neopets thing as it requires ActiveX, and I'm one of the
>>> 10% of people on an Apple. And don't forget the 50% of people in Europe
>>> who don't use IE any more... plus Neopets is not actually that popular.
>>> 1 million is a tiny drop in the ocean when it comes to the 800 million
>>> web users out there... If they're serious, they need to come up with a
>>> FireFox version as people are becoming more cautious about downloading
>>> "new" plugins.
>>>
>>> Neopets isn't that popular (it's so yesterday!) :)
>>>
>>> I will try it at the studio where we have a PC!
>>>
>> I tend to agree with you about the fact that people are not as willing
>> to install plug-ins anymore. I am not sure on the 50% figgure for non
>> IE users, but I would not be shocked by that as many people are not
>
>Given between 5-10% of European users are using Opera or Safari, and
>then this:
>
>http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,134615-pg,1/article.html
>
>I think 40-50% isn't far off the mark for Europe. Our own stats on our
>EU servers suggest around 35% non-IE, and growing.
>
>
>> happy with IE7 and want what it has to offer but need a better browser
>> (they notice that FF have been doing what IE now does for years and
>> have swiched).
>
>I dislike Fx's sluggish rendering, but generally it is faster than IE in
>my experience. But then, I don't have a PC, so don't get to use it THAT
>often :)

Some browsers use different engines on different operating systems.
For example IE6 on Windows uses Trident but IE on the Mac uses Tasman.
On Windows IE6 is faster in just about every respect to Firefox expect
for javascript rendering, however all the benchmarks done have failed
to take into account the curve of lag that results from having
multiple browser instances running simultaneously. If you open
Firefox with say a couple dozen tabs...it is just shit fuckin slow.
Where as if you run a few dozen instances of IE...meh...no real
difference in speed/rendering.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:

> Some browsers use different engines on different operating systems.
> For example IE6 on Windows uses Trident but IE on the Mac uses Tasman.
> On Windows IE6 is faster in just about every respect to Firefox expect
> for javascript rendering, however all the benchmarks done have failed
> to take into account the curve of lag that results from having
> multiple browser instances running simultaneously. If you open

On the other hand if you open multiple FireFox's, they're all fast. So
it's all relative stuff, but I take your point.

> Firefox with say a couple dozen tabs...it is just shit fuckin slow.
> Where as if you run a few dozen instances of IE...meh...no real
> difference in speed/rendering.

Single window Fx vs single window IE7 and Fx will usually out perform in
all rendering.

Also IE hasn't been updated for MacOS in about 6 years, and won't even
run on Intel Mac :) On a Mac, Safari is the faster browser, followed by
Opera then FireFox. But I like the flexibility of FireFox, and the fact
that it is identical (same renderer) on all platforms. If something
works in Fx on my Mac, you can be 99.9% sure it'll work on anything that
can run that version of Fx.

On thing Fx is VERY VERY bad at is how it handles Flash. Whether this is
a Flash or FireFox fault I dont know, but you only need to open a couple
of full screen Flash 9 movies in Fx tabs and watch Fx start to become
really sluggish. This just doesn't happen with IE7 on my testbed machine
(which is a fraction of the speed of my dev machine). I really open that
either Adobe or Mozilla fix this issue in Fx 3.


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 27, 3:12 am, "Fred Doyle" wrote:
> "Chaddy2222" wrote in message
>
> > I tend to agree with you about the fact that people are not as willing
> > to install plug-ins anymore. I am not sure on the 50% figgure for non
> > IE users, but I would not be shocked by that as many people are not
> > happy with IE7 and want what it has to offer but need a better browser
> > (they notice that FF have been doing what IE now does for years and
> > have swiched).
> > --
>
> On our site, in the US, with about 1.7 million visitor (12% international)
> in the last 6 weeks, we saw 72% IE (45% of total visits in IE 6, 26% of
> total visits IE 7, 1% IE 5), 18% Firefox, 3.5% Safari, the rest in mostly
> other Mozilla based browsers. So although we have a higher percent of
> Firefox visitors than the norm in theUS, adoption of IE 7 is outpacing
> adoption of Firefox.
>
> Windows OS accounts for 89% of visits (including 25,000 visitors using
> Windows 98 and 514 visitors still using Windows 95), BTW, Mac about 4.5%,
> all flavors of Linux is about .5%.
>
> Does it show I've been analyzing stats in preparation for a site redesign?
> ;-)
>
> Fred Doyle

Fred, you have a lot of time on your hands obviously. But the stats on
IE7 were interesting. I must say all my sites now use XHTML1.0 strict
code with CSS, I like the mark-up and all decent modern browsers
handle it fine, a part from IE7, it also works fine with
Screenreaders, such as Jaws. On IE5.5 and below, I would not bother
supporting them really as only a small percentage use it + it's CSS
support is not that grea.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:

> Some browsers use different engines on different operating systems.
> For example IE6 on Windows uses Trident but IE on the Mac uses Tasman.

IE/win and IE/mac are effectively two different browsers. I seem to
remember that IE4/mac was based on IE4/win, but IE5/mac was a rewrite from
scratch: the only thing it shares with IE/win is the name.

If we count IE/win and IE/mac as two different browsers, then it's safe
to say that each cross-platform browser use the same rendering engine on
every supported platform.

However, same rendering engine does not necessarily equal same results.
HTML rendering engines often wrap around OS-specific font rendering and
form controls.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 36 days, 15:36.]

Cryptography Challenge
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/24/crypto-challenge/

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

"Chaddy2222" wrote

>
> Fred, you have a lot of time on your hands obviously.

Not a lot of time on my hands, but a really, really good stats package.

> But the stats on
> IE7 were interesting. I must say all my sites now use XHTML1.0 strict
> code with CSS, I like the mark-up and all decent modern browsers
> handle it fine, a part from IE7, it also works fine with
> Screenreaders, such as Jaws. On IE5.5 and below, I would not bother
> supporting them really as only a small percentage use it + it's CSS
> support is not that grea.

We are using an XHTML Transitional doctype in all new pages. We tried
working with a strict doctype but we've got a lot of content developers,
putting pages up in a lot of ways and without support for some of the
presentation attributes and elements that are being eliminated ultimately,
it would have been leftup to us to explain what content developers could use
and not use. Not a pretty picture when you've got 100's of content
developers with 100's of different skilll levels, using a dozen different
tools to create pages within our current brand.

And that's why I never need reminding of why I need to push so hard to move
us to an enterprise-level CMS system and get HTML coding out of the hands of
the content developers.

Fred Doyle

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:33:46 -0700, Chaddy2222
wrote:

>On Jul 27, 3:12 am, "Fred Doyle" wrote:
>> "Chaddy2222" wrote in message
>>
>> > I tend to agree with you about the fact that people are not as willing
>> > to install plug-ins anymore. I am not sure on the 50% figgure for non
>> > IE users, but I would not be shocked by that as many people are not
>> > happy with IE7 and want what it has to offer but need a better browser
>> > (they notice that FF have been doing what IE now does for years and
>> > have swiched).
>> > --
>>
>> On our site, in the US, with about 1.7 million visitor (12% international)
>> in the last 6 weeks, we saw 72% IE (45% of total visits in IE 6, 26% of
>> total visits IE 7, 1% IE 5), 18% Firefox, 3.5% Safari, the rest in mostly
>> other Mozilla based browsers. So although we have a higher percent of
>> Firefox visitors than the norm in theUS, adoption of IE 7 is outpacing
>> adoption of Firefox.
>>
>> Windows OS accounts for 89% of visits (including 25,000 visitors using
>> Windows 98 and 514 visitors still using Windows 95), BTW, Mac about 4.5%,
>> all flavors of Linux is about .5%.
>>
>> Does it show I've been analyzing stats in preparation for a site redesign?
>> ;-)
>>
>> Fred Doyle
>
>Fred, you have a lot of time on your hands obviously. But the stats on
>IE7 were interesting.

Probably wrong though, did they say whether they were using a 64 bit
processor or not? Cause that'd make a difference.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

"Onideus Mad Hatter" wrote

>
> Probably wrong though, did they say whether they were using a 64 bit
> processor or not? Cause that'd make a difference.
>
> --

My understanding is that the stats package does look at the post-platform
tokens, if available, in making the browser and platform determination, i.e.
the WIN64, WOW 64 tokens. I believe it does this in the log file analysis,
and I'm certain it does it when using js to drop a first party cookie. I
sure there's an error rate to that, especially in log file analysis, but
there's a high variance in all this

Fred Doyle

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Fred Doyle wrote:
> "Chaddy2222" wrote
>
> >
> > Fred, you have a lot of time on your hands obviously.
>
> Not a lot of time on my hands, but a really, really good stats package.
>
> > But the stats on
> > IE7 were interesting. I must say all my sites now use XHTML1.0 strict
> > code with CSS, I like the mark-up and all decent modern browsers
> > handle it fine, a part from IE7, it also works fine with
> > Screenreaders, such as Jaws. On IE5.5 and below, I would not bother
> > supporting them really as only a small percentage use it + it's CSS
> > support is not that good.
>
> We are using an XHTML Transitional doctype in all new pages. We tried
> working with a strict doctype but we've got a lot of content developers,
> putting pages up in a lot of ways and without support for some of the
> presentation attributes and elements that are being eliminated ultimately,
> it would have been leftup to us to explain what content developers could use
> and not use. Not a pretty picture when you've got 100's of content
> developers with 100's of different skilll levels, using a dozen different
> tools to create pages within our current brand.
>
I would pick on you for useing an XHTML transitional DTD, but I was
having trouble spelling the word "good" in my last post. I did not
even pick that up till I read it yesterday.
But yeah a CMS sounds like it would be good for you, or maybe just get
all developers to use the same software (KompoZer is good, it's the
unofficial bug fix for NVU). http://www.kompozer.net
I must say though that XHTML served as text/html works fine in IE6 and
7, but eventually I will probly eather move back to useing 4.01
strict or use XHTML served in it's proper form, as XHTML+XML.
I will see what happens, but I would not use XHTML transitional in any
form as it's just plain wrong! in my oppinion.

> And that's why I never need reminding of why I need to push so hard to move
> us to an enterprise-level CMS system and get HTML coding out of the hands of
> the content developers.
>
Yeah, sounds good, no wonder so many government sites are poorly
coded.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

SpaceGirl wrote:
> Chaddy2222 wrote:
> > On Jul 26, 5:56 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
> >> Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> >>> Check it out:
> >>> http://www.neopets.com/games/play.phtml?game_id=877
> >>> It uses an ActiveX plugin called 3D Life Player by Virtools. Pretty
> >>> slick stuff. I'm wondering if and when Flash will take the leap into
> >>> 3D content.
> >>> The interesting thing is that since Neopets is starting to use it for
> >>> their games...well that basically equates to MILLIONS of users
> >>> worldwide who will install the plugin, making it a fairly viable
> >>> option as far as web content.
> >> There's a really good 3D api we're playing with right now for Flash
> >> (PaperVision3D) that doens't require a plug in. You should check it out.
> >>
> >> I can't runthe neopets thing as it requires ActiveX, and I'm one of the
> >> 10% of people on an Apple. And don't forget the 50% of people in Europe
> >> who don't use IE any more... plus Neopets is not actually that popular.
> >> 1 million is a tiny drop in the ocean when it comes to the 800 million
> >> web users out there... If they're serious, they need to come up with a
> >> FireFox version as people are becoming more cautious about downloading
> >> "new" plugins.
> >>
> >> Neopets isn't that popular (it's so yesterday!) :)
> >>
> >> I will try it at the studio where we have a PC!
> >>
> > I tend to agree with you about the fact that people are not as willing
> > to install plug-ins anymore. I am not sure on the 50% figgure for non
> > IE users, but I would not be shocked by that as many people are not
>
> Given between 5-10% of European users are using Opera or Safari, and
> then this:
>
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,134615-pg,1/article.html
>
> I think 40-50% isn't far off the mark for Europe. Our own stats on our
> EU servers suggest around 35% non-IE, and growing.
>
>
> > happy with IE7 and want what it has to offer but need a better browser
> > (they notice that FF have been doing what IE now does for years and
> > have swiched).
>
> I dislike Fx's sluggish rendering, but generally it is faster than IE in
> my experience. But then, I don't have a PC, so don't get to use it THAT
> often :)
>
>
I don't think FF would render stuff much differently on a Mac or a PC.
Hmmm but yes you do notice Firefox rendering stuff such as Flash video
quite slowly (but then again) I am sure that broadband speed would
make a difference. But that's probably stateing the obvious.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 21:05:08 -0700, Chaddy2222
wrote:

>I would pick on you for useing an XHTML transitional DTD, but I was
>having trouble spelling the word "good" in my last post. I did not
>even pick that up till I read it yesterday.
>But yeah a CMS sounds like it would be good for you, or maybe just get
>all developers to use the same software (KompoZer is good, it's the
>unofficial bug fix for NVU). http://www.kompozer.net
>I must say though that XHTML served as text/html works fine in IE6 and
>7, but eventually I will probly eather move back to useing 4.01
>strict or use XHTML served in it's proper form, as XHTML+XML.
>I will see what happens, but I would not use XHTML transitional in any
>form as it's just plain wrong! in my oppinion.

Um...you uh...you *DO* understand that the W3C's RECOMMENDED
"standards" in NO WAY equate to cross compatibility...you know, since
no browser maker on the planet actually adheres to ALL of the W3C's
RECOMMENDATIONS. And all it takes is ONE to throw the whole concept
in the garbage.

The W3C's doc types are meant more as general guidelines than
anything, they try to promote good programming practices, but really,
if you're going to use an HTML based code you need to actually check
and make sure that each element not only works on ALL major browsers
but that it also works on ALL major browsers on ALL major operating
systems...of course, why bother with that stupidity when you can
simply code your sites in Flash, which takes all the guess work out of
it.

As I've said before, even for just a plain text site Flash is VASTLY
superior to HTML in that you get proper font anti-aliasing, you can
embed fonts and you can make use of liquid sizable text rather than
just liquid space stretched text.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 21:13:13 -0700, Chaddy2222
wrote:

>
>SpaceGirl wrote:
>> Chaddy2222 wrote:
>> > On Jul 26, 5:56 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
>> >> Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
>> >>> Check it out:
>> >>> http://www.neopets.com/games/play.phtml?game_id=877
>> >>> It uses an ActiveX plugin called 3D Life Player by Virtools. Pretty
>> >>> slick stuff. I'm wondering if and when Flash will take the leap into
>> >>> 3D content.
>> >>> The interesting thing is that since Neopets is starting to use it for
>> >>> their games...well that basically equates to MILLIONS of users
>> >>> worldwide who will install the plugin, making it a fairly viable
>> >>> option as far as web content.
>> >> There's a really good 3D api we're playing with right now for Flash
>> >> (PaperVision3D) that doens't require a plug in. You should check it out.
>> >>
>> >> I can't runthe neopets thing as it requires ActiveX, and I'm one of the
>> >> 10% of people on an Apple. And don't forget the 50% of people in Europe
>> >> who don't use IE any more... plus Neopets is not actually that popular.
>> >> 1 million is a tiny drop in the ocean when it comes to the 800 million
>> >> web users out there... If they're serious, they need to come up with a
>> >> FireFox version as people are becoming more cautious about downloading
>> >> "new" plugins.
>> >>
>> >> Neopets isn't that popular (it's so yesterday!) :)
>> >>
>> >> I will try it at the studio where we have a PC!
>> >>
>> > I tend to agree with you about the fact that people are not as willing
>> > to install plug-ins anymore. I am not sure on the 50% figgure for non
>> > IE users, but I would not be shocked by that as many people are not
>>
>> Given between 5-10% of European users are using Opera or Safari, and
>> then this:
>>
>> http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,134615-pg,1/article.html
>>
>> I think 40-50% isn't far off the mark for Europe. Our own stats on our
>> EU servers suggest around 35% non-IE, and growing.
>>
>>
>> > happy with IE7 and want what it has to offer but need a better browser
>> > (they notice that FF have been doing what IE now does for years and
>> > have swiched).
>>
>> I dislike Fx's sluggish rendering, but generally it is faster than IE in
>> my experience. But then, I don't have a PC, so don't get to use it THAT
>> often :)
>>
>>
>I don't think FF would render stuff much differently on a Mac or a PC.
>Hmmm but yes you do notice Firefox rendering stuff such as Flash video
>quite slowly (but then again) I am sure that broadband speed would
>make a difference. But that's probably stateing the obvious.

*checks your site*

http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

....your websites look like ass...OLD ass...I just want you to know
that.

*checks your code*

Oh, this is part of the problem:
:

I guess you can't code, huh? HTML generators...LOL...how quaint. ^_^

Oh, btw, your sites are also terribly bloated given the sparse content
and lack of a design...and why the fuck are you using PHP? Further,
why do you even have more than one page? Has the concept of dynamic
content completely skipped you? Or is that just too far ahead of the
antediluvian time frame you seem to be designing around? Seriously,
your sites look like somebody hit the button on the fuckin Wayback
machine. *rolls eyes*

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 29, 2:31 pm, Onideus Mad Hatter productions.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 21:13:13 -0700, Chaddy2222
>
>
>
>
>
> wrote:
>
> >SpaceGirl wrote:
> >> Chaddy2222 wrote:
> >> > On Jul 26, 5:56 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
> >> >> Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> >> >>> Check it out:
> >> >>>http://www.neopets.com/games/play.phtml?game_id=877
> >> >>> It uses an ActiveX plugin called 3D Life Player by Virtools. Pretty
> >> >>> slick stuff. I'm wondering if and when Flash will take the leap into
> >> >>> 3D content.
> >> >>> The interesting thing is that since Neopets is starting to use it for
> >> >>> their games...well that basically equates to MILLIONS of users
> >> >>> worldwide who will install the plugin, making it a fairly viable
> >> >>> option as far as web content.
> >> >> There's a really good 3D api we're playing with right now for Flash
> >> >> (PaperVision3D) that doens't require a plug in. You should check it out.
>
> >> >> I can't runthe neopets thing as it requires ActiveX, and I'm one of the
> >> >> 10% of people on an Apple. And don't forget the 50% of people in Europe
> >> >> who don't use IE any more... plus Neopets is not actually that popular.
> >> >> 1 million is a tiny drop in the ocean when it comes to the 800 million
> >> >> web users out there... If they're serious, they need to come up with a
> >> >> FireFox version as people are becoming more cautious about downloading
> >> >> "new" plugins.
>
> >> >> Neopets isn't that popular (it's so yesterday!) :)
>
> >> >> I will try it at the studio where we have a PC!
>
> >> > I tend to agree with you about the fact that people are not as willing
> >> > to install plug-ins anymore. I am not sure on the 50% figgure for non
> >> > IE users, but I would not be shocked by that as many people are not
>
> >> Given between 5-10% of European users are using Opera or Safari, and
> >> then this:
>
> >>http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,134615-pg,1/article.html
>
> >> I think 40-50% isn't far off the mark for Europe. Our own stats on our
> >> EU servers suggest around 35% non-IE, and growing.
>
> >> > happy with IE7 and want what it has to offer but need a better browser
> >> > (they notice that FF have been doing what IE now does for years and
> >> > have swiched).
>
> >> I dislike Fx's sluggish rendering, but generally it is faster than IE in
> >> my experience. But then, I don't have a PC, so don't get to use it THAT
> >> often :)
>
> >I don't think FF would render stuff much differently on a Mac or a PC.
> >Hmmm but yes you do notice Firefox rendering stuff such as Flash video
> >quite slowly (but then again) I am sure that broadband speed would
> >make a difference. But that's probably stateing the obvious.
>
> *checks your site*
>
> http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz
>
> ...your websites look like ass...OLD ass...I just want you to know
> that.
>
> *checks your code*
>
> Oh, this is part of the problem:
> :
>
> I guess you can't code, huh? HTML generators...LOL...how quaint. ^_^
>
My sites are perfectly valid XHTML 1.0 Strict.

> Oh, btw, your sites are also terribly bloated given the sparse content
> and lack of a design...and why the fuck are you using PHP? Further,
> why do you even have more than one page? Has the concept of dynamic
> content completely skipped you? Or is that just too far ahead of the
> antediluvian time frame you seem to be designing around? Seriously,
> your sites look like somebody hit the button on the fuckin Wayback
> machine. *rolls eyes*
>
Hmmm, well due to the nature of the site, it does not need to be
updated that offen, although I update the content every few months.
As for being "bloated" I am working on the CSS to make it less so and
the HTML should not be bloated at all, + I will soon be giving the
main site a complete re-design. The re-design will use as little code
as possible (well enough to make it work correctly obviously.)
BTW, the site does look a little better in FF then IE.
Also, as for your own site I can't access any of the content (eg read
any of it) with my screen reader.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 04:22:06 GMT
Onideus Mad Hatter scribed:

> The W3C's doc types are meant more as general guidelines than
> anything, they try to promote good programming practices, but really,
> if you're going to use an HTML based code you need to actually check
> and make sure that each element not only works on ALL major browsers
> but that it also works on ALL major browsers on ALL major operating
> systems...of course, why bother with that stupidity when you can
> simply code your sites in Flash, which takes all the guess work out of
> it.

I actually somewhat agree with your opinion here, but the trouble with
Flash is that it (often) limits the visitor's ability to control it - much
like javascript did in the dog days. I generally cringe when I randomly
hit a Flash site and am surprised if it happens not to do anything I don't
want it to do.

PS: Like the diaper...

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 29, 5:02 pm, Neredbojias wrote:
> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 04:22:06 GMT
> Onideus Mad Hatter scribed:
>
> > The W3C's doc types are meant more as general guidelines than
> > anything, they try to promote good programming practices, but really,
> > if you're going to use an HTML based code you need to actually check
> > and make sure that each element not only works on ALL major browsers
> > but that it also works on ALL major browsers on ALL major operating
> > systems...of course, why bother with that stupidity when you can
> > simply code your sites in Flash, which takes all the guess work out of
> > it.
>
> I actually somewhat agree with your opinion here, but the trouble with
> Flash is that it (often) limits the visitor's ability to control it - much
> like javascript did in the dog days. I generally cringe when I randomly
> hit a Flash site and am surprised if it happens not to do anything I don't
> want it to do.
>
Hmmm well yes, I could see Hatters point as well. But until Flash has
a way of becomeing more accessible (by users with adaptive
technology) I probably won't be designing entire websites with it. In
a lot of cases good old HTML with some CSS for styleing works fine and
means you end up with a site with a consistent look and feel, even if
that "look" is not quite the same in all browsing environments.
The thing is though, even if the site does look the same in all
browsers (as in all visual browsers) through the use of flash, then it
still means that it won't work for those of us useing aural browsers
(so some kind of alternative still needs to be provided.
This means that you then need to update two sites with the same
content, which is why I like the CSS method, as you can keep all the
visual style seprat from the rest of the content makeing it easier for
SE bots and screen readers and visitors to access the content. This
also means that all visual
branding is kept in tact.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 08:51:14
GMT Chaddy2222 scribed:

> On Jul 29, 5:02 pm, Neredbojias wrote:
>> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007
>> 04:22:06 GMT Onideus Mad Hatter scribed:
>>
>> > The W3C's doc types are meant more as general guidelines than
>> > anything, they try to promote good programming practices, but
>> > really, if you're going to use an HTML based code you need to
>> > actually check and make sure that each element not only works on
>> > ALL major browsers but that it also works on ALL major browsers on
>> > ALL major operating systems...of course, why bother with that
>> > stupidity when you can simply code your sites in Flash, which takes
>> > all the guess work out of it.
>>
>> I actually somewhat agree with your opinion here, but the trouble
>> with Flash is that it (often) limits the visitor's ability to control
>> it - much like javascript did in the dog days. I generally cringe
>> when I randomly hit a Flash site and am surprised if it happens not
>> to do anything I don't want it to do.
>>
> Hmmm well yes, I could see Hatters point as well. But until Flash has
> a way of becomeing more accessible (by users with adaptive
> technology) I probably won't be designing entire websites with it. In
> a lot of cases good old HTML with some CSS for styleing works fine and
> means you end up with a site with a consistent look and feel, even if
> that "look" is not quite the same in all browsing environments.
> The thing is though, even if the site does look the same in all
> browsers (as in all visual browsers) through the use of flash, then it
> still means that it won't work for those of us useing aural browsers
> (so some kind of alternative still needs to be provided.
> This means that you then need to update two sites with the same
> content, which is why I like the CSS method, as you can keep all the
> visual style seprat from the rest of the content makeing it easier for
> SE bots and screen readers and visitors to access the content. This
> also means that all visual
> branding is kept in tact.
> --
> Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Yes, you make many good points. I think the conclusion is that Flash has
to be improved, as does html/css, etc. -And the browsers. It's just
that sometimes I get a little sick of all the things that _don't_ work
under "normal" html auspices. Yesterday I found a beauty of a bug in
Firefox. Reload a page of thumbs and the first one disappears... Oh,
I'm sure there are conditions. I think the thumb has to be bigger than a
certain size, and perhaps centering plays a part, but it's definitely a
bug - for something as simple as that. (Probably relates to the cache
because it only happens online.) Geesh, will they ever get it right?

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 29, 7:17 pm, Neredbojias wrote:
> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 08:51:14
> GMT Chaddy2222 scribed:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 29, 5:02 pm, Neredbojias wrote:
> >> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007
> >> 04:22:06 GMT Onideus Mad Hatter scribed:
>
> >> > The W3C's doc types are meant more as general guidelines than
> >> > anything, they try to promote good programming practices, but
> >> > really, if you're going to use an HTML based code you need to
> >> > actually check and make sure that each element not only works on
> >> > ALL major browsers but that it also works on ALL major browsers on
> >> > ALL major operating systems...of course, why bother with that
> >> > stupidity when you can simply code your sites in Flash, which takes
> >> > all the guess work out of it.
>
> >> I actually somewhat agree with your opinion here, but the trouble
> >> with Flash is that it (often) limits the visitor's ability to control
> >> it - much like javascript did in the dog days. I generally cringe
> >> when I randomly hit a Flash site and am surprised if it happens not
> >> to do anything I don't want it to do.
>
> > Hmmm well yes, I could see Hatters point as well. But until Flash has
> > a way of becomeing more accessible (by users with adaptive
> > technology) I probably won't be designing entire websites with it. In
> > a lot of cases good old HTML with some CSS for styleing works fine and
> > means you end up with a site with a consistent look and feel, even if
> > that "look" is not quite the same in all browsing environments.
> > The thing is though, even if the site does look the same in all
> > browsers (as in all visual browsers) through the use of flash, then it
> > still means that it won't work for those of us useing aural browsers
> > (so some kind of alternative still needs to be provided.
> > This means that you then need to update two sites with the same
> > content, which is why I like the CSS method, as you can keep all the
> > visual style seprat from the rest of the content makeing it easier for
> > SE bots and screen readers and visitors to access the content. This
> > also means that all visual
> > branding is kept in tact.
> > --
> > Regards Chad.http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz
>
> Yes, you make many good points. I think the conclusion is that Flash has
> to be improved, as does html/css, etc. -And the browsers. It's just
> that sometimes I get a little sick of all the things that _don't_ work
> under "normal" html auspices. Yesterday I found a beauty of a bug in
> Firefox. Reload a page of thumbs and the first one disappears... Oh,
> I'm sure there are conditions. I think the thumb has to be bigger than a
> certain size, and perhaps centering plays a part, but it's definitely a
> bug - for something as simple as that. (Probably relates to the cache
> because it only happens online.) Geesh, will they ever get it right?
>
Hmmm, well images on the web are a tricky thing to get right, did you
miss setting a hight on one of those images by any chance? Cause that
is what it sounds like.
But as to your question, no I don't think they ever will the web is
not like paper as they say (I mean it's just impossible to prodict
anything on the web. Having said that if you write valid code you will
have a better chance of items working the way you want and I am really
starting to not be as concerned with IE as a result of this
(especially as FireFox Opera and all of those type browsers running
gecho display stuff in a very similar way.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:

> no browser maker on the planet actually adheres to ALL of the W3C's
> RECOMMENDATIONS. And all it takes is ONE to throw the whole concept
> in the garbage.

It is true that no browser adheres to all of the W3C recs, but I do not
agree with your conclusion. Although the browsers are not perfect
implementations, they are still a good approximation of W3C
recommendations, and as each new version is released, they tend to get
closer, not further away.

So although real world browser testing is still a requirement, and likely
will be for many years to come, there is still a lot of value in following
the W3C recs.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 38 days, 15:25.]

Cryptography Challenge
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/24/crypto-challenge/

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Chaddy2222 wrote:

> (especially as FireFox Opera and all of those type browsers running
> gecho display stuff in a very similar way.

Opera is *NOT* Gecko-based. This is why Opera does not suffer from Gecko's
snail-paced rendering.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 38 days, 15:34.]

Cryptography Challenge
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/24/crypto-challenge/

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 29, 9:56 pm, Toby A Inkster
wrote:
> Chaddy2222 wrote:
> > (especially as FireFox Opera and all of those type browsers running
> > gecho display stuff in a very similar way.
>
> Opera is *NOT* Gecko-based. This is why Opera does not suffer from Gecko's
> snail-paced rendering.
>
Ahh, thanks for the info Toby.
But Opera do conform with the W3C standards quite well.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Toby A Inkster wrote:
> Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
>
>> no browser maker on the planet actually adheres to ALL of the W3C's
>> RECOMMENDATIONS. And all it takes is ONE to throw the whole concept
>> in the garbage.
>
> It is true that no browser adheres to all of the W3C recs, but I do not
> agree with your conclusion. Although the browsers are not perfect
> implementations, they are still a good approximation of W3C
> recommendations, and as each new version is released, they tend to get
> closer, not further away.
>
> So although real world browser testing is still a requirement, and likely
> will be for many years to come, there is still a lot of value in following
> the W3C recs.
>


The fact that browsers don't adhere to W3C standards is an old straw dog
argument. There are many, many good reasons for coding to those
standards that have nothing to do with consistent rendering across
browsers and platforms that have been articulated in great detail.

--
Fred Doyle

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 09:32:22
GMT Chaddy2222 scribed:

>> > Hmmm well yes, I could see Hatters point as well. But until Flash
>> > has a way of becomeing more accessible (by users with adaptive
>> > technology) I probably won't be designing entire websites with it.
>> > In a lot of cases good old HTML with some CSS for styleing works
>> > fine and means you end up with a site with a consistent look and
>> > feel, even if that "look" is not quite the same in all browsing
>> > environments. The thing is though, even if the site does look the
>> > same in all browsers (as in all visual browsers) through the use of
>> > flash, then it still means that it won't work for those of us
>> > useing aural browsers (so some kind of alternative still needs to
>> > be provided. This means that you then need to update two sites
>> > with the same content, which is why I like the CSS method, as you
>> > can keep all the visual style seprat from the rest of the content
>> > makeing it easier for SE bots and screen readers and visitors to
>> > access the content. This also means that all visual
>> > branding is kept in tact.
>> > --
>> > Regards Chad.http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz
>>
>> Yes, you make many good points. I think the conclusion is that Flash
>> has to be improved, as does html/css, etc. -And the browsers. It's
>> just that sometimes I get a little sick of all the things that
>> _don't_ work under "normal" html auspices. Yesterday I found a
>> beauty of a bug in Firefox. Reload a page of thumbs and the first
>> one disappears... Oh, I'm sure there are conditions. I think the
>> thumb has to be bigger than a certain size, and perhaps centering
>> plays a part, but it's definitely a bug - for something as simple as
>> that. (Probably relates to the cache because it only happens
>> online.) Geesh, will they ever get it right?
>>
> Hmmm, well images on the web are a tricky thing to get right, did you
> miss setting a hight on one of those images by any chance? Cause that
> is what it sounds like.

No way, Jose. -Or in this case: Are you mad, Chad? The heights & widths
are the same for all images and included via css. Markup and css validate,
and there's nothing particularly unusual about the page. Here's one
example of the general template:

http://www.neredbojias.com/opa.html

(Damn, reviewing the source, I see there _is_ some superfluous stuff, but
believe me, those hs's have nothing to do with it. The basic 8-pic, fixed-
top, cleared-content div layout does it. My only other example is adult
material.)

> But as to your question, no I don't think they ever will the web is
> not like paper as they say (I mean it's just impossible to prodict
> anything on the web. Having said that if you write valid code you will
> have a better chance of items working the way you want and I am really
> starting to not be as concerned with IE as a result of this
> (especially as FireFox Opera and all of those type browsers running
> gecho display stuff in a very similar way.

My code is valid - even when it's not.

Actually, my markup _is_ valid. I don't believe I have any pages left with
exceptions.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 05:52:21 -0700, Chaddy2222
wrote:

>On Jul 29, 9:56 pm, Toby A Inkster
>wrote:
>> Chaddy2222 wrote:
>> > (especially as FireFox Opera and all of those type browsers running
>> > gecho display stuff in a very similar way.
>>
>> Opera is *NOT* Gecko-based. This is why Opera does not suffer from Gecko's
>> snail-paced rendering.
>>
>Ahh, thanks for the info Toby.
>But Opera do conform with the W3C standards quite well.

It's true that Opera is fast...really though, that's about fuckin it.
It doesn't really conform to W3C specs all that well:

http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/

....yeah.

Opera supports HTML 4.01 with these exceptions:
* Event attributes are not supported for the option element
* The col width attribute does not support multilengths
* The object standby and declare attributes are not supported.
* The table cell attributes char and charoff are not supported.

Opera supports XHTML 1.1 with these exceptions:
* Event attributes are not supported for the option element
* The col width attribute does not support multilengths
* The object standby and declare attributes are not supported.
* The table cell attributes char and charoff are not supported
* Ruby annotations are not supported

Opera supports XHTML Basic with the following exception:
* The object standby and declare attributes are not supported.

Opera supports WML 1.3 and 2.0 with the following exceptions:
* The columns attribute
* The input formatting code
* the wml:getvar element

Opera supports XSLT 1.0 and XPath 1.0 with the following exceptions:
* The namespace-alias element is not supported
* The Nan, per-mille, minus-sign, and percent attributes for the
decimal-value element are not supported
* The case-order attribute for the sort element is not supported
* The document() function is not supported.

Opera does not support XSL Formatting Objects.

Opera supports all of CSS2 with the exception of:
* These properties: font-size-adjust, font-stretch, marker-offset,
marks, and text-shadow,
* The list style types cjk-ideographic, hebrew, hiragana,
hiragana-iroha, katakana, katakana-iroha.
* These property/value combinations: "display: marker",
"text-align: ", "visibility: collapse".
* Named pages (as described in section 13.3.2).
* The "@font-face" construct.
* The :lang() selector

And keep in mind that this list was like five times as long not even
two versions ago and MANY Opera users are NOT using the latest
version. *nods*

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On 29 Jul 2007 09:17:10 GMT, Neredbojias
wrote:

>Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 08:51:14
>GMT Chaddy2222 scribed:
>
>> On Jul 29, 5:02 pm, Neredbojias wrote:
>>> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007
>>> 04:22:06 GMT Onideus Mad Hatter scribed:
>>>
>>> > The W3C's doc types are meant more as general guidelines than
>>> > anything, they try to promote good programming practices, but
>>> > really, if you're going to use an HTML based code you need to
>>> > actually check and make sure that each element not only works on
>>> > ALL major browsers but that it also works on ALL major browsers on
>>> > ALL major operating systems...of course, why bother with that
>>> > stupidity when you can simply code your sites in Flash, which takes
>>> > all the guess work out of it.
>>>
>>> I actually somewhat agree with your opinion here, but the trouble
>>> with Flash is that it (often) limits the visitor's ability to control
>>> it - much like javascript did in the dog days. I generally cringe
>>> when I randomly hit a Flash site and am surprised if it happens not
>>> to do anything I don't want it to do.
>>>
>> Hmmm well yes, I could see Hatters point as well. But until Flash has
>> a way of becomeing more accessible (by users with adaptive
>> technology) I probably won't be designing entire websites with it. In
>> a lot of cases good old HTML with some CSS for styleing works fine and
>> means you end up with a site with a consistent look and feel, even if
>> that "look" is not quite the same in all browsing environments.
>> The thing is though, even if the site does look the same in all
>> browsers (as in all visual browsers) through the use of flash, then it
>> still means that it won't work for those of us useing aural browsers
>> (so some kind of alternative still needs to be provided.
>> This means that you then need to update two sites with the same
>> content, which is why I like the CSS method, as you can keep all the
>> visual style seprat from the rest of the content makeing it easier for
>> SE bots and screen readers and visitors to access the content. This
>> also means that all visual
>> branding is kept in tact.
>> --
>> Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz
>
>Yes, you make many good points. I think the conclusion is that Flash has
>to be improved

Actually it's the DEVELOPERS who need to improve the most, not the
software. Flash is accessible as the DEVELOPER makes it...sadly most
Flash developers don't have any fuckin cl00 as to what they're even
doing.

Also, a lot of times what you call "accessibility" a developer would
call a security hole. For example the ability to save images in the
site. It's pretty easy to make custom context menus and setup your
Flash files so that users can save images embedded in the Flash
file...but then a lot of developers don't because they want to protect
their images.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 05:52:21 -0700, Chaddy2222

>> Ahh, thanks for the info Toby.
>> But Opera do conform with the W3C standards quite well.
>
> It's true that Opera is fast...really though, that's about fuckin it.
> It doesn't really conform to W3C specs all that well:
>
> http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/
>
> ...yeah.
>



> And keep in mind that this list was like five times as long not even
> two versions ago and MANY Opera users are NOT using the latest
> version. *nods*

Same argument could be used for IE 6, or FireFox 1. Many people still
use old versions of software, which obviously don't meet the latest
guidelines...

Many of those things are exceptions on all modern browsers. I think you
are misinterpreting the W3C guidelines as standards; they are not. They
are a set of generally agreed ways of doing things that browsers should
aim at supporting. It's not a definitive list of functionality, it's not
a list of "must haves". Just a general guideline. Now, the majority of
modern browsers mean 99% of the guidelines for the various "standards"
(XHMTL1.0, CSS2 etc) and render these elements in fairly similar ways.
This makes life a lot easier for a designer. It'll get better too, each
browser slowly maturing and getting closer and closer to the guidelines.

There will always be differences between the browsers, it's just one of
those things.

Overall, Opera is a great browser. It's closer to the guidelines for
most of W3C recommendations than many browsers (IE7 being a prime
example). It's faster than almost any other browser.


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Neredbojias wrote:
> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 08:51:14
> GMT Chaddy2222 scribed:
>
>> On Jul 29, 5:02 pm, Neredbojias wrote:
>>> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007
>>> 04:22:06 GMT Onideus Mad Hatter scribed:
>>>
>>>> The W3C's doc types are meant more as general guidelines than
>>>> anything, they try to promote good programming practices, but
>>>> really, if you're going to use an HTML based code you need to
>>>> actually check and make sure that each element not only works on
>>>> ALL major browsers but that it also works on ALL major browsers on
>>>> ALL major operating systems...of course, why bother with that
>>>> stupidity when you can simply code your sites in Flash, which takes
>>>> all the guess work out of it.
>>> I actually somewhat agree with your opinion here, but the trouble
>>> with Flash is that it (often) limits the visitor's ability to control
>>> it - much like javascript did in the dog days. I generally cringe
>>> when I randomly hit a Flash site and am surprised if it happens not
>>> to do anything I don't want it to do.
>>>
>> Hmmm well yes, I could see Hatters point as well. But until Flash has
>> a way of becomeing more accessible (by users with adaptive
>> technology) I probably won't be designing entire websites with it. In
>> a lot of cases good old HTML with some CSS for styleing works fine and
>> means you end up with a site with a consistent look and feel, even if
>> that "look" is not quite the same in all browsing environments.
>> The thing is though, even if the site does look the same in all
>> browsers (as in all visual browsers) through the use of flash, then it
>> still means that it won't work for those of us useing aural browsers
>> (so some kind of alternative still needs to be provided.
>> This means that you then need to update two sites with the same
>> content, which is why I like the CSS method, as you can keep all the
>> visual style seprat from the rest of the content makeing it easier for
>> SE bots and screen readers and visitors to access the content. This
>> also means that all visual
>> branding is kept in tact.
>> --
>> Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz
>
> Yes, you make many good points. I think the conclusion is that Flash has
> to be improved, as does html/css, etc. -And the browsers. It's just
> that sometimes I get a little sick of all the things that _don't_ work
> under "normal" html auspices. Yesterday I found a beauty of a bug in
> Firefox. Reload a page of thumbs and the first one disappears... Oh,
> I'm sure there are conditions. I think the thumb has to be bigger than a
> certain size, and perhaps centering plays a part, but it's definitely a
> bug - for something as simple as that. (Probably relates to the cache
> because it only happens online.) Geesh, will they ever get it right?
>


Yes and no. Flash CS3 (AS3) is a quantum leap in technology as far as
online multimedia goes, so it is down to developers & designers getting
to grips with it rather than any particular flaws in the technology
itself. Of course, Flash is not perfect, but we're FAR from close to
exploring the limits of the sort of experiences AS3 allows us to create.
And because the world is moving fast, of course... we'll never get it
right. There's always something new and untested, some new technology
that is 1st generation or some new way of rendering content. Personally
I think HTML is going to become less and less important. We live in a
multimedia world, and the top-down "page" metaphor has a limited future;
video, interaction, graphics, different ways of exploring information
and content, completely new metaphors for describing content; these are
things HTML is terrible at. Adobe Flash CS3 (Flash 9 with AS3) and
Microsoft's WPF are a step into the sort of platforms we should be
developing for online.

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:17:21
GMT Neredbojias scribed:

>> Hmmm, well images on the web are a tricky thing to get right, did you
>> miss setting a hight on one of those images by any chance? Cause that
>> is what it sounds like.
>
> No way, Jose. -Or in this case: Are you mad, Chad? The heights &
> widths are the same for all images and included via css. Markup and
> css validate, and there's nothing particularly unusual about the page.
> Here's one example of the general template:
>
> http://www.neredbojias.com/opa.html
>
> (Damn, reviewing the source, I see there _is_ some superfluous stuff,
> but believe me, those hs's have nothing to do with it. The basic
> 8-pic, fixed- top, cleared-content div layout does it. My only other
> example is adult material.)

Forget the link above. I cleaned the page, making it the basic template:

http://www.neredbojias.com/opa_sample.html

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 29, 11:49 pm, SpaceGirl
wrote:
> Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> > On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 05:52:21 -0700, Chaddy2222
> >> Ahh, thanks for the info Toby.
> >> But Opera do conform with the W3C standards quite well.
>
> > It's true that Opera is fast...really though, that's about fuckin it.
> > It doesn't really conform to W3C specs all that well:
>
> >http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/
>
> > ...yeah.
>
>
>
> > And keep in mind that this list was like five times as long not even
> > two versions ago and MANY Opera users are NOT using the latest
> > version. *nods*
>
> Same argument could be used for IE 6, or FireFox 1. Many people still
> use old versions of software, which obviously don't meet the latest
> guidelines...
>
> Many of those things are exceptions on all modern browsers. I think you
> are misinterpreting the W3C guidelines as standards; they are not. They
> are a set of generally agreed ways of doing things that browsers should
> aim at supporting. It's not a definitive list of functionality, it's not
> a list of "must haves". Just a general guideline. Now, the majority of
> modern browsers mean 99% of the guidelines for the various "standards"
> (XHTML1.0, CSS2 etc) and render these elements in fairly similar ways.
> This makes life a lot easier for a designer. It'll get better too, each
> browser slowly maturing and getting closer and closer to the guidelines.
>
> There will always be differences between the browsers, it's just one of
> those things.
>
I could not agree more with that!

> Overall, Opera is a great browser. It's closer to the guidelines for
> most of W3C recommendations than many browsers (IE7 being a prime
> example). It's faster than almost any other browser.
>
I agree Opera is a pritty dam good browser (although FireFox has an
easier to use set of options I reckon), I find Opera to be a bit
cluttered with features at times.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 29, 11:17 pm, Neredbojias wrote:
> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 09:32:22
> GMT Chaddy2222 scribed:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> > Hmmm well yes, I could see Hatters point as well. But until Flash
> >> > has a way of becomeing more accessible (by users with adaptive
> >> > technology) I probably won't be designing entire websites with it.
> >> > In a lot of cases good old HTML with some CSS for styleing works
> >> > fine and means you end up with a site with a consistent look and
> >> > feel, even if that "look" is not quite the same in all browsing
> >> > environments. The thing is though, even if the site does look the
> >> > same in all browsers (as in all visual browsers) through the use of
> >> > flash, then it still means that it won't work for those of us
> >> > useing aural browsers (so some kind of alternative still needs to
> >> > be provided. This means that you then need to update two sites
> >> > with the same content, which is why I like the CSS method, as you
> >> > can keep all the visual style seprat from the rest of the content
> >> > makeing it easier for SE bots and screen readers and visitors to
> >> > access the content. This also means that all visual
> >> > branding is kept in tact.
> >> > --
> >> > Regards Chad.http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz
>
> >> Yes, you make many good points. I think the conclusion is that Flash
> >> has to be improved, as does html/css, etc. -And the browsers. It's
> >> just that sometimes I get a little sick of all the things that
> >> _don't_ work under "normal" html auspices. Yesterday I found a
> >> beauty of a bug in Firefox. Reload a page of thumbs and the first
> >> one disappears... Oh, I'm sure there are conditions. I think the
> >> thumb has to be bigger than a certain size, and perhaps centering
> >> plays a part, but it's definitely a bug - for something as simple as
> >> that. (Probably relates to the cache because it only happens
> >> online.) Geesh, will they ever get it right?
>
> > Hmmm, well images on the web are a tricky thing to get right, did you
> > miss setting a hight on one of those images by any chance? Cause that
> > is what it sounds like.
>
> No way, Jose. -Or in this case: Are you mad, Chad? The heights & widths
> are the same for all images and included via css. Markup and css validate,
> and there's nothing particularly unusual about the page. Here's one
> example of the general template:
>
> http://www.neredbojias.com/opa.html
>
> (Damn, reviewing the source, I see there _is_ some superfluous stuff, but
> believe me, those hs's have nothing to do with it. The basic 8-pic, fixed-
> top, cleared-content div layout does it. My only other example is adult
> material.)
>
> > But as to your question, no I don't think they ever will the web is
> > not like paper as they say (I mean it's just impossible to prodict
> > anything on the web. Having said that if you write valid code you will
> > have a better chance of items working the way you want and I am really
> > starting to not be as concerned with IE as a result of this
> > (especially as FireFox Opera and all of those type browsers running
> > gecho display stuff in a very similar way.
>
> My code is valid - even when it's not.
>
> Actually, my markup _is_ valid. I don't believe I have any pages left with
> exceptions.
>
Hmmm yeah, it does seam your code is fine. I reckon it must be just a
rendering bug.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:28:47
GMT Onideus Mad Hatter scribed:

>>Yes, you make many good points. I think the conclusion is that Flash
>>has to be improved
>
> Actually it's the DEVELOPERS who need to improve the most, not the
> software. Flash is accessible as the DEVELOPER makes it...sadly most
> Flash developers don't have any fuckin cl00 as to what they're even
> doing.

That's why I originally went along with your argument. The same _cannot_
be said in the html-browser arena because, in my opinion, the standards
are faulty, the browsers are faultier, and when you throw the developers
into the mix...

(Sure, a lot of people won't agree with this, but use a perspective of
comparison with almost any other sphere of discipline. If the product or
service doesn't satisfy its "customers", it atrophies, or is replaced or
corrected. That even applies to governments. If something as
"hogwashy" as the w3c's version of html was thrust upon the general
public in a different guise, it would surely be cast out. We don't need
any more steam automobiles or lighter-than-air aerocraft. We need
something modern, efficient, and effective. Html and css are _barely_
viable. Yes, the browser-boys share some of the blame, but that isn't my
problem. My problem is presenting my ideas as I wish with the most
capable methods available.

> Also, a lot of times what you call "accessibility" a developer would
> call a security hole. For example the ability to save images in the
> site. It's pretty easy to make custom context menus and setup your
> Flash files so that users can save images embedded in the Flash
> file...but then a lot of developers don't because they want to protect
> their images.

True, as certain javascriptors disable context menues and the like also.
I don't stay at those site very long, and I never go back. Currently,
however, the percentage of Flash sites is greater than the percentage of
html sites within that category. Webmasters can be just as big fools as
anybody else, but Flash makes it easier, I'd say. Still, it's probably
the future, _especially_ if the html "standards" and "interpretations"
aren't straightened-out within a reasonable amount of time.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Neredbojias wrote:
>>>
>>> bug in Firefox. Reload a page of thumbs and the first
>>> one disappears...
>
> http://www.neredbojias.com/opa.html

FYI, I don't see that happen with Seamonkey.

--
Berg

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
>
> Also, a lot of times what you call "accessibility" a developer would
> call a security hole. For example the ability to save images in the
> site.

What does that have to do with accessibility? Nothing, really.

--
Berg

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

SpaceGirl wrote:
>
> Adobe Flash CS3 (Flash 9 with AS3) and
> Microsoft's WPF are a step into the sort of platforms we should be
> developing for online.

For some things, probably, but certainly not everything as you suggest.

--
Berg

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:49:24 +0100, SpaceGirl
wrote:

>> And keep in mind that this list was like five times as long not even
>> two versions ago and MANY Opera users are NOT using the latest
>> version. *nods*

>Same argument could be used for IE 6, or FireFox 1.

The difference being that those two browsers were never touting as
being 'the master of standards'. A lot of people, for a long time,
were going around running at the fuckin mouth claiming that Opera was
meeting nearly all (or in some cases claiming all) of the W3Cs
recommended standards.

>Overall, Opera is a great browser. It's closer to the guidelines for
>most of W3C recommendations than many browsers (IE7 being a prime
>example). It's faster than almost any other browser.

But on the other hand you can do a LOT more style wise with IE7
BECAUSE it doesn't adhere to the DEFICIENT standards. See that's the
real trick of it, IE may not MEET the standards, but in many ways it
EXCEEDS them. Where as with a browser like Opera...it's just
deficient. But, again, Flash is be all and end all solution since any
exceeded functionality you can get with IE can be done, and better,
with Flash and it has the advantage of being cross browser compatible.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On 29 Jul 2007 13:17:21 GMT, Neredbojias
wrote:

>Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 09:32:22
>GMT Chaddy2222 scribed:
>
>>> > Hmmm well yes, I could see Hatters point as well. But until Flash
>>> > has a way of becomeing more accessible (by users with adaptive
>>> > technology) I probably won't be designing entire websites with it.
>>> > In a lot of cases good old HTML with some CSS for styleing works
>>> > fine and means you end up with a site with a consistent look and
>>> > feel, even if that "look" is not quite the same in all browsing
>>> > environments. The thing is though, even if the site does look the
>>> > same in all browsers (as in all visual browsers) through the use of
>>> > flash, then it still means that it won't work for those of us
>>> > useing aural browsers (so some kind of alternative still needs to
>>> > be provided. This means that you then need to update two sites
>>> > with the same content, which is why I like the CSS method, as you
>>> > can keep all the visual style seprat from the rest of the content
>>> > makeing it easier for SE bots and screen readers and visitors to
>>> > access the content. This also means that all visual
>>> > branding is kept in tact.
>>> > --
>>> > Regards Chad.http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz
>>>
>>> Yes, you make many good points. I think the conclusion is that Flash
>>> has to be improved, as does html/css, etc. -And the browsers. It's
>>> just that sometimes I get a little sick of all the things that
>>> _don't_ work under "normal" html auspices. Yesterday I found a
>>> beauty of a bug in Firefox. Reload a page of thumbs and the first
>>> one disappears... Oh, I'm sure there are conditions. I think the
>>> thumb has to be bigger than a certain size, and perhaps centering
>>> plays a part, but it's definitely a bug - for something as simple as
>>> that. (Probably relates to the cache because it only happens
>>> online.) Geesh, will they ever get it right?
>>>
>> Hmmm, well images on the web are a tricky thing to get right, did you
>> miss setting a hight on one of those images by any chance? Cause that
>> is what it sounds like.
>
>No way, Jose. -Or in this case: Are you mad, Chad? The heights & widths
>are the same for all images and included via css. Markup and css validate,
>and there's nothing particularly unusual about the page. Here's one
>example of the general template:
>
>http://www.neredbojias.com/opa.html
>
>(Damn, reviewing the source, I see there _is_ some superfluous stuff, but
>believe me, those hs's have nothing to do with it. The basic 8-pic, fixed-
>top, cleared-content div layout does it. My only other example is adult
>material.)
>
>> But as to your question, no I don't think they ever will the web is
>> not like paper as they say (I mean it's just impossible to prodict
>> anything on the web. Having said that if you write valid code you will
>> have a better chance of items working the way you want and I am really
>> starting to not be as concerned with IE as a result of this
>> (especially as FireFox Opera and all of those type browsers running
>> gecho display stuff in a very similar way.
>
>My code is valid - even when it's not.
>
>Actually, my markup _is_ valid. I don't believe I have any pages left with
>exceptions.

Validation DOES NOT equate to cross browser compatibility, therefore,
it's pointless. You're wasting your time, only attempting validation
as a means of stroking your deficient ego.

ANYONE can make a W3C compliant site...and the really ironic part is
that you don't even need compliant code to do it:
http://www.backwater-productions.net/wwcc/histology-1/

LOL, just have javascript or PHP render your code and you can make
your code as non compliant as you want! ^_^

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:52:05 -0500, Bergamot
wrote:

>SpaceGirl wrote:
>>
>> Adobe Flash CS3 (Flash 9 with AS3) and
>> Microsoft's WPF are a step into the sort of platforms we should be
>> developing for online.
>
>For some things, probably, but certainly not everything as you suggest.

Well, what's interesting is that more and more HTML will probably be
used WITHIN Flash. I would say that HTML in and of itself is nearing
the point of being on the verge of a dying language, however within
Flash it does have a possible future.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:39:34 GMT
Bergamot scribed:

> Neredbojias wrote:
>>>>
>>>> bug in Firefox. Reload a page of thumbs and the first
>>>> one disappears...
>>
>> http://www.neredbojias.com/opa.html
>
> FYI, I don't see that happen with Seamonkey.

Veeeerry interesting. I didn't bother to try it, -same rendering engine,
etc., etc., but I will now.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Mon, 30 Jul 2007 01:00:55
GMT Onideus Mad Hatter scribed:

>>My code is valid - even when it's not.
>>
>>Actually, my markup _is_ valid. I don't believe I have any pages left
>>with exceptions.
>
> Validation DOES NOT equate to cross browser compatibility, therefore,
> it's pointless. You're wasting your time, only attempting validation
> as a means of stroking your deficient ego.

But it' so much fun...

> ANYONE can make a W3C compliant site...and the really ironic part is
> that you don't even need compliant code to do it:
> http://www.backwater-productions.net/wwcc/histology-1/
>
> LOL, just have javascript or PHP render your code and you can make
> your code as non compliant as you want! ^_^

Yes, in the last week or so, that has been discussed either here or on
another related newsgroup where they hope you don't show up. Staying
current with your ng visitations implies actually reading the content when
you're there. Understanding what you read is an additional necessity for
the prevention of embarrassing cluelessness.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:57:02
GMT SpaceGirl scribed:

>> Yes, you make many good points. I think the conclusion is that Flash
>> has to be improved, as does html/css, etc. -And the browsers. It's
>> just that sometimes I get a little sick of all the things that
>> _don't_ work under "normal" html auspices. Yesterday I found a
>> beauty of a bug in Firefox. Reload a page of thumbs and the first
>> one disappears... Oh, I'm sure there are conditions. I think the
>> thumb has to be bigger than a certain size, and perhaps centering
>> plays a part, but it's definitely a bug - for something as simple as
>> that. (Probably relates to the cache because it only happens
>> online.) Geesh, will they ever get it right?
>>
>
>
> Yes and no. Flash CS3 (AS3) is a quantum leap in technology as far as
> online multimedia goes, so it is down to developers & designers
> getting to grips with it rather than any particular flaws in the
> technology itself. Of course, Flash is not perfect, but we're FAR from
> close to exploring the limits of the sort of experiences AS3 allows us
> to create. And because the world is moving fast, of course... we'll
> never get it right. There's always something new and untested, some
> new technology that is 1st generation or some new way of rendering
> content. Personally I think HTML is going to become less and less
> important. We live in a multimedia world, and the top-down "page"
> metaphor has a limited future; video, interaction, graphics, different
> ways of exploring information and content, completely new metaphors
> for describing content; these are things HTML is terrible at. Adobe
> Flash CS3 (Flash 9 with AS3) and Microsoft's WPF are a step into the
> sort of platforms we should be developing for online.

Uh huh, my feelings are very similar to yours. I do think the situation
might have been currently different if html were the crisp, adept, non-
buggy interface it's supposed to be, however. But reality is different,
and as I implied before, pagemakers will use whatever best satisfies
_their_ needs to create the kind of page they want to communicate with
_their_ audience. It's a bit like the difference between .wma and .mp3
files. To digital music fans, the former is a joke, -created by MS to
control the interests of themselves and their proprietary clients. Well, I
don't care about those interests; I care about my own. Mp3s are much less
invasive or restrictive. So saying, the main trouble I have with Flash is
that it's still proprietary. If Abode were smart, they'd open-source it.
-Now, before something free [and more "accessible" :)] takes it place.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On 30 Jul 2007 05:04:32 GMT, Neredbojias
wrote:

>>> Yes, you make many good points. I think the conclusion is that Flash
>>> has to be improved, as does html/css, etc. -And the browsers. It's
>>> just that sometimes I get a little sick of all the things that
>>> _don't_ work under "normal" html auspices. Yesterday I found a
>>> beauty of a bug in Firefox. Reload a page of thumbs and the first
>>> one disappears... Oh, I'm sure there are conditions. I think the
>>> thumb has to be bigger than a certain size, and perhaps centering
>>> plays a part, but it's definitely a bug - for something as simple as
>>> that. (Probably relates to the cache because it only happens
>>> online.) Geesh, will they ever get it right?

>> Yes and no. Flash CS3 (AS3) is a quantum leap in technology as far as
>> online multimedia goes, so it is down to developers & designers
>> getting to grips with it rather than any particular flaws in the
>> technology itself. Of course, Flash is not perfect, but we're FAR from
>> close to exploring the limits of the sort of experiences AS3 allows us
>> to create. And because the world is moving fast, of course... we'll
>> never get it right. There's always something new and untested, some
>> new technology that is 1st generation or some new way of rendering
>> content. Personally I think HTML is going to become less and less
>> important. We live in a multimedia world, and the top-down "page"
>> metaphor has a limited future; video, interaction, graphics, different
>> ways of exploring information and content, completely new metaphors
>> for describing content; these are things HTML is terrible at. Adobe
>> Flash CS3 (Flash 9 with AS3) and Microsoft's WPF are a step into the
>> sort of platforms we should be developing for online.

>Uh huh, my feelings are very similar to yours. I do think the situation
>might have been currently different if html were the crisp, adept, non-
>buggy interface it's supposed to be, however. But reality is different,
>and as I implied before, pagemakers will use whatever best satisfies
>_their_ needs to create the kind of page they want to communicate with
>_their_ audience. It's a bit like the difference between .wma and .mp3
>files. To digital music fans, the former is a joke, -created by MS to
>control the interests of themselves and their proprietary clients. Well, I
>don't care about those interests; I care about my own. Mp3s are much less
>invasive or restrictive. So saying, the main trouble I have with Flash is
>that it's still proprietary. If Abode were smart, they'd open-source it.
>-Now, before something free [and more "accessible" :)] takes it place.

Um...why would you want it open sourced? If they did that, it would
instantly plagued with the same problems as HTML...and that'd sure
suck eight ways to last week. Beside which, even if the language is
proprietary that doesn't mean third party development tools can't be
created. I don't even use Adobe/Macromedia's Flash builder, I use
SwishMax, which has a VASTLY superior interface. Although in a sense
it *IS* kind of open source, for example in SwishMax there are many
things coding wise that are different from the way you would code in
Adobe/Macromedia's Flash builder. The core functions of the language
can't be changed, but the syntax and code building methodology can
certainly be made custom as far the precompiled developer front end is
concerned.

So in summary, Flash is basically proprietary open source. It has all
the advantages of open source development with all the advantages of a
proprietary system (being universally cross compatible) and none of
their downsides.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Mon, 30 Jul 2007 05:39:09
GMT Onideus Mad Hatter scribed:

>>Uh huh, my feelings are very similar to yours. I do think the
>>situation might have been currently different if html were the crisp,
>>adept, non- buggy interface it's supposed to be, however. But reality
>>is different, and as I implied before, pagemakers will use whatever
>>best satisfies _their_ needs to create the kind of page they want to
>>communicate with _their_ audience. It's a bit like the difference
>>between .wma and .mp3 files. To digital music fans, the former is a
>>joke, -created by MS to control the interests of themselves and their
>>proprietary clients. Well, I don't care about those interests; I care
>>about my own. Mp3s are much less invasive or restrictive. So saying,
>>the main trouble I have with Flash is that it's still proprietary. If
>>Abode were smart, they'd open-source it. -Now, before something free
>>[and more "accessible" :)] takes it place.
>
> Um...why would you want it open sourced? If they did that, it would
> instantly plagued with the same problems as HTML...and that'd sure
> suck eight ways to last week. Beside which, even if the language is
> proprietary that doesn't mean third party development tools can't be
> created. I don't even use Adobe/Macromedia's Flash builder, I use
> SwishMax, which has a VASTLY superior interface. Although in a sense
> it *IS* kind of open source, for example in SwishMax there are many
> things coding wise that are different from the way you would code in
> Adobe/Macromedia's Flash builder. The core functions of the language
> can't be changed, but the syntax and code building methodology can
> certainly be made custom as far the precompiled developer front end is
> concerned.

Hmm... Hmm... To be honest, I have to think about what you said. The
reason I made my statement in the first place was I was considering the
MS-to-Moz relationship as an analogy. MS came out with proprietary crap
like Active-X and .wma which had nothing to do with my best interests,
only theirs and the entrepreneurs they supply. Moz came out with
something that everybody has access to (-meaning the source code and
development.) I suppose it's a stretch to generalize that, and open
source isn't necessarily good in and of itself, however. I guess I can
express my feelings best by saying that I hate it when someone puts
something on _my_ computer which I have no access to and which in the
long run is inimical to the benefits for which I purchased the computer
in the first place. MS wants a "pay-per-view" environment; open-
sorcerers (yuk) want a free, accessible environment. I can count the
number of times on one hand that I ever spent money on cable pay-per-view
and I won't start any similarly repugnant habits in another venue now. I
don't mind paying for software initially (-if it works), but ongoing
costs aggravate the crap outta me. Btw, these current-day anti-virus
"subscriptions" are nothing but a big scam, too.

> So in summary, Flash is basically proprietary open source. It has all
> the advantages of open source development with all the advantages of a
> proprietary system (being universally cross compatible) and none of
> their downsides.

I wouldn't mind trying my hand at making some kind of "Flashish"
presentation or other. Do you know of any freeware with the
capabilities?

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:

> Validation DOES NOT equate to cross browser compatibility, therefore,
> it's pointless.

There you go with your "all or nothing at all".

Good spelling does not equate to good writing, but there's still value in
spelling things correctly.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 39 days, 15:13.]

demiblog 0.2.2 Released
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/29/demiblog-0.2.2/

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 30, 1:04 am, Neredbojias wrote:
> So saying, the main trouble I have with Flash is
> that it's still proprietary. If Abode were smart, they'd open-source it.

Do you want the player to be open source? Adobe (and Macromedia
before them) have always given out the specs for creating SWF files.
Anyone can build a SWF file using a text editor if you like. You do
not need Adobe Flash to create and SWF file, or to build a custom tool
that will create SWF files.

I do not agree that the player should be open source. I like having a
single source for the player.

Why do you think they would they be smart to open source it?

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 30, 1:39 am, Onideus Mad Hatter productions.net> wrote:
> Um...why would you want it open sourced?
I can not believe I agree with something you said....

> I don't even use Adobe/Macromedia's Flash builder, I use
> SwishMax, which has a VASTLY superior interface.
I found the Swish interface to be a subset of Flash and very
limiting. I do agree to make canned animations it is easier. I also
seem to recall that Swish was always about a version and a half behind
Flash.

> The core functions of the language can't be changed

In The Flash environment the core functions (via actionscript) can be
changed. I can inherit and change the functionality of any class or
object in Flash.

> So in summary, Flash is basically proprietary open source. It has all
> the advantages of open source development with all the advantages of a
> proprietary system (being universally cross compatible) and none of
> their downsides.

Again, I agree (I think I am going to be sick)

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 30, 6:01 am, Neredbojias wrote:
> I wouldn't mind trying my hand at making some kind of "Flashish"
> presentation or other. Do you know of any freeware with the
> capabilities?

Other than getting the Flash API and hand coding a SWF file (pain in
the ass, but not impossible) the only thing I know of is getting the
30 day demo of Flash or Swish

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:21:17 GMT
Travis Newbury scribed:

> On Jul 30, 6:01 am, Neredbojias wrote:
>> I wouldn't mind trying my hand at making some kind of "Flashish"
>> presentation or other. Do you know of any freeware with the
>> capabilities?
>
> Other than getting the Flash API and hand coding a SWF file (pain in
> the ass, but not impossible) the only thing I know of is getting the
> 30 day demo of Flash or Swish

I thought as much but that's to be expected. What's the price of a full-
fledged Flash setup that some dwindling old cowpuncher could make a movie
with?

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:11:22
GMT Travis Newbury scribed:

> On Jul 30, 1:04 am, Neredbojias wrote:
>> So saying, the main trouble I have with Flash is
>> that it's still proprietary. If Abode were smart, they'd open-source
>> it.
>
> Do you want the player to be open source? Adobe (and Macromedia
> before them) have always given out the specs for creating SWF files.
> Anyone can build a SWF file using a text editor if you like. You do
> not need Adobe Flash to create and SWF file, or to build a custom tool
> that will create SWF files.
>
> I do not agree that the player should be open source. I like having a
> single source for the player.
>
> Why do you think they would they be smart to open source it?

You 'n Hatter seem to agree on this so perhaps I mis-spoke. Guess I just
want it to be free, like html and css and javascript, so everybody can "hop
on the train" and really test its capabilities. Right now, it reminds me
too much of Active-X and like debuncles.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Bergamot wrote:
> SpaceGirl wrote:
>> Adobe Flash CS3 (Flash 9 with AS3) and
>> Microsoft's WPF are a step into the sort of platforms we should be
>> developing for online.
>
> For some things, probably, but certainly not everything as you suggest.
>

No, for all things. Doesn't mean we need to change the world or
anything, just means we are "allowed" by technology now to explore new
ways of doing things, regardless of the subject matter. There's nothing
wrong with that at all. If we can find, say, a different and innovative
way of distributing a novel, great. That doesn't mean that it
automatically destines printed novels to the bin. These new technologies
mean that we have new tools for finding new ways of doing things.

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:52:05 -0500, Bergamot
> wrote:
>
>> SpaceGirl wrote:
>>> Adobe Flash CS3 (Flash 9 with AS3) and
>>> Microsoft's WPF are a step into the sort of platforms we should be
>>> developing for online.
>> For some things, probably, but certainly not everything as you suggest.
>
> Well, what's interesting is that more and more HTML will probably be
> used WITHIN Flash. I would say that HTML in and of itself is nearing
> the point of being on the verge of a dying language, however within
> Flash it does have a possible future.

Nah, not in Flash 9 anyway. HTML rendering in Flash 9 is still very
basic... Apollo on the other hand (ahem, I mean, AIR) can do all of
this, but I seriously think AIR has no future before it's even started.
People Will Not Download Bloated Players Adobe! Wake Up! Well unless
someone creates a killer app with it anyway, I think AIR will go
nowhere. Tell me, how many people have Shockwave players on their
computers theses days? Almost noone? Everyone has Flash though... and
everyone who has Windows Vista also has WFP installed.


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Neredbojias wrote:
> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:11:22
> GMT Travis Newbury scribed:
>
>> On Jul 30, 1:04 am, Neredbojias wrote:
>>> So saying, the main trouble I have with Flash is
>>> that it's still proprietary. If Abode were smart, they'd open-source
>>> it.
>> Do you want the player to be open source? Adobe (and Macromedia
>> before them) have always given out the specs for creating SWF files.
>> Anyone can build a SWF file using a text editor if you like. You do
>> not need Adobe Flash to create and SWF file, or to build a custom tool
>> that will create SWF files.
>>
>> I do not agree that the player should be open source. I like having a
>> single source for the player.
>>
>> Why do you think they would they be smart to open source it?
>
> You 'n Hatter seem to agree on this so perhaps I mis-spoke. Guess I just
> want it to be free, like html and css and javascript, so everybody can "hop
> on the train" and really test its capabilities. Right now, it reminds me
> too much of Active-X and like debuncles.
>

It is free. You can download Flex for free, and take a look. There's an
opensource project around the Player too (I think!?). Anyway there are
plenty of ways of creating Flash these days, and you don't need to spend
a single $.

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Travis Newbury wrote:
> On Jul 30, 6:01 am, Neredbojias wrote:
>> I wouldn't mind trying my hand at making some kind of "Flashish"
>> presentation or other. Do you know of any freeware with the
>> capabilities?
>
> Other than getting the Flash API and hand coding a SWF file (pain in
> the ass, but not impossible) the only thing I know of is getting the
> 30 day demo of Flash or Swish
>
>

Flex :)

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Travis Newbury wrote:

>> I don't even use Adobe/Macromedia's Flash builder, I use
>> SwishMax, which has a VASTLY superior interface.
> I found the Swish interface to be a subset of Flash and very
> limiting. I do agree to make canned animations it is easier. I also
> seem to recall that Swish was always about a version and a half behind
> Flash.

Me too... it's really really simplified, which is great if you want to
hack something together in a hurry, but for application development you
simply start hitting walls 5 minutes after starting. But I guess it
depends what you want, I really do like some elements of SM interface,
so maybe for someone not interested in coding for the AVM it's better.
But now that Flash CS3 has the new UI, I really love it. I used to find
Flash so clunky, but the new UI makes it so much easier to get around.

Anyway, I'd not recommend anyone even touches SwishMax until it gets AS3
support (it's basically dead in the water until it comes out of beta),
and even then if you want to do more than animate a few bits and pieces,
do yourself a big favor and learn how to code from scratch in
DreamWeaver CS3 or Flash CS3 with ActionScript 3.


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:00:22
GMT SpaceGirl scribed:

> Neredbojias wrote:
>> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Mon, 30 Jul 2007
>> 15:11:22 GMT Travis Newbury scribed:
>>
>>> On Jul 30, 1:04 am, Neredbojias wrote:
>>>> So saying, the main trouble I have with Flash is
>>>> that it's still proprietary. If Abode were smart, they'd
>>>> open-source it.
>>> Do you want the player to be open source? Adobe (and Macromedia
>>> before them) have always given out the specs for creating SWF files.
>>> Anyone can build a SWF file using a text editor if you like. You do
>>> not need Adobe Flash to create and SWF file, or to build a custom
>>> tool that will create SWF files.
>>>
>>> I do not agree that the player should be open source. I like having
>>> a single source for the player.
>>>
>>> Why do you think they would they be smart to open source it?
>>
>> You 'n Hatter seem to agree on this so perhaps I mis-spoke. Guess I
>> just want it to be free, like html and css and javascript, so
>> everybody can "hop on the train" and really test its capabilities.
>> Right now, it reminds me too much of Active-X and like debuncles.
>>
>
> It is free. You can download Flex for free, and take a look. There's
> an opensource project around the Player too (I think!?). Anyway there
> are plenty of ways of creating Flash these days, and you don't need to
> spend a single $.

Okay, I'll just hafta dig into it and stop procrastinating. Btw, regarding
a comment you made up thare ^ somewhere (-and to show my action-media
ignorance,) what's the difference between Shockwave and Flash? I thought
they were virtually the same 'cept maybe for versions.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

SpaceGirl wrote:
>
> These new technologies
> mean that we have new tools for finding new ways of doing things.

Which is peachy, in theory, but subject to abuse just like Flash is now.

And Flash is abused. C'mon, you know it is.

--
Berg

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

In article <5h7n1dF3igoo1U1@mid.individual.net>,
Bergamot wrote:

> SpaceGirl wrote:
> >
> > These new technologies
> > mean that we have new tools for finding new ways of doing things.
>
> Which is peachy, in theory, but subject to abuse just like Flash is now.
>
> And Flash is abused. C'mon, you know it is.

It is always important to point out every downside to everything
in this world. To focus not only on the slightest and gravest
abuses but to keep a light shining brightly into the possible
world where there is no end of material to feed a hunger for
instances of sin.

--
dorayme

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 30, 5:27 pm, Neredbojias wrote:
> > Other than getting the Flash API and hand coding a SWF file (pain in
> > the ass, but not impossible) the only thing I know of is getting the
> > 30 day demo of Flash or Swish
> I thought as much but that's to be expected. What's the price of a full-
> fledged Flash setup that some dwindling old cowpuncher could make a movie
> with?

I think it is around $699 US.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 30, 6:02 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
> > Other than getting the Flash API and hand coding a SWF file (pain in
> > the ass, but not impossible) the only thing I know of is getting the
> > 30 day demo of Flash or Swish
> Flex :)

I have not played with Flex a lot, but from what I have read it is
Swish on steroids

Swish is great if you want to have basic animations and a little
functionality (a slide show, splash screen, the kinds of things the
hatter does with it, etc...) But I would never use it to write a true
web based business application. Flex is one step above that where it
is powerful enough to write a real application, and Flash is the king
of them all.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 30, 11:00 pm, Bergamot wrote:
> > These new technologies
> > mean that we have new tools for finding new ways of doing things.
> Which is peachy, in theory, but subject to abuse just like Flash is now.
> And Flash is abused. C'mon, you know it is.

Absolutely! Flash is completely abused.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Travis Newbury wrote:
> On Jul 30, 11:00 pm, Bergamot wrote:
>>> These new technologies
>>> mean that we have new tools for finding new ways of doing things.
>> Which is peachy, in theory, but subject to abuse just like Flash is now.
>> And Flash is abused. C'mon, you know it is.
>
> Absolutely! Flash is completely abused.
>
>


Yep. But not more so or less so than HTML, so why keep going on about
it? Waste of energy, which could be used to develop better Flash sites
instead :)

Yes Flash is abuse, but for every bad Flash site there are 1000s of
awful HTML sites.


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 31, 8:02 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
> Travis Newbury wrote:
> > On Jul 30, 11:00 pm, Bergamot wrote:
> >>> These new technologies
> >>> mean that we have new tools for finding new ways of doing things.
> >> Which is peachy, in theory, but subject to abuse just like Flash is now.
> >> And Flash is abused. C'mon, you know it is.
>
> > Absolutely! Flash is completely abused.
>
> Yep. But not more so or less so than HTML, so why keep going on about
> it? Waste of energy, which could be used to develop better Flash sites
> instead :)
>
> Yes Flash is abuse, but for every bad Flash site there are 1000s of
> awful HTML sites.
>
Well yes, but at least if you find a bad HTML site you can turn off
styleing and still get to the content that you need!.
You can't do that at all with a Flash site.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Chaddy2222 wrote:
> On Jul 31, 8:02 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:

>> Yes Flash is abuse[d], but for every bad Flash site there are 1000s of
>> awful HTML sites.
>>
> Well yes, but at least if you find a bad HTML site you can turn off
> styleing and still get to the content that you need!.
> You can't do that at all with a Flash site.

If the site is CSS'd yes you can turn off styling. But you're adding
another technology into the mix. HTML itself is a presentational mess.
With CSS there is more control over the formatting, but then that too
can be abused. In some cases you may NOT want the end user to turn off
your styling (if your brand is important, or perhaps you provide an
alternative site for accessibility).

The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
abused" is this:

www.thefwa.com

Many, many great Flash sites!

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 31, 8:38 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
> Chaddy2222 wrote:
> > On Jul 31, 8:02 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
> >> Yes Flash is abuse[d], but for every bad Flash site there are 1000s of
> >> awful HTML sites.
>
> > Well yes, but at least if you find a bad HTML site you can turn off
> > styleing and still get to the content that you need!.
> > You can't do that at all with a Flash site.
>
> If the site is CSS'd yes you can turn off styling. But you're adding
> another technology into the mix. HTML itself is a presentational mess.
Yep, although it was / is not really ment to be used for presentation.
It being HTML in this case. It's just ment to describe the function of
a particular thing, a block of text as a paragraph as an example.
Although at times the technology needs to be used in a way which some
people will not agree with, but in those types of situations I think
the best a designer can do is to provide some kind of fall-back method
so people can still get some value out of the content.


> With CSS there is more control over the formatting, but then that too
> can be abused. In some cases you may NOT want the end user to turn off
> your styling (if your brand is important, or perhaps you provide an
> alternative site for accessibility).
>
> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
> abused" is this:
>
> www.thefwa.com
>
> Many, many great Flash sites!
>
Hmmm, that would depend on what you think is "great". Although Flash
is ideal for art type sites and those kind of sites that don't
actually require anyone to gain access to the information (music /
band sites are a bit of an exception to the rule). Due to the fact
that a lot of bands need to use extensive branding (specific fonts etc
that can't be provided *easily* any other way.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Chaddy2222 wrote:

>> another technology into the mix. HTML itself is a presentational mess.
> Yep, although it was / is not really ment to be used for presentation.
> It being HTML in this case. It's just ment to describe the function of
> a particular thing, a block of text as a paragraph as an example.

Yes, but saying that doesn't make it true :) HTML was never *supposed*
to be used for presentation, but it was/is, so the argument is moot.
People STILL use tables for layout... why? Because for all the niceness
of CSS there are to many cross browser issues. So IRL people regularly
use HTML for layout. There's nothing wrong with this. Guidelines are
supposed to guide, they're not supposed to be followed blindly.

> Although at times the technology needs to be used in a way which some
> people will not agree with, but in those types of situations I think
> the best a designer can do is to provide some kind of fall-back method
> so people can still get some value out of the content.

I agree completely. It's all about the content. From time to time the
content IS the brand (there isn't much beyond the brand itself). I get
annoye when people generalize about design; all Flash is not bad. HTML
for layout does work. CSS will not save us all :) Good design and good
content presentation can be done with whatever technology is at hand,
and people (designers) should not get so hung up on what is "proper" or
"standard". Who cares if the end product is a success with your target
audience? If it gets the message across, it has done it's job!

>> www.thefwa.com
>>
>> Many, many great Flash sites!
>>
> Hmmm, that would depend on what you think is "great". Although Flash
> is ideal for art type sites and those kind of sites that don't
> actually require anyone to gain access to the information (music /
> band sites are a bit of an exception to the rule). Due to the fact
> that a lot of bands need to use extensive branding (specific fonts etc
> that can't be provided *easily* any other way.

yes, but the same applies to whatever audience you are looking at. The
world is VERY VERY big. There are over 300,000,000 active WWW users.
Trying to design a web site that suite all is just... not smart. It
can't possibly ever work; too many browsers, too many cultural gaps, too
many languages. In the far east all of the popular sites seem to be
coming Flash heavy, interactive, with sound and video. It will happen in
the West too. This doesn't mean the content is harder to get to; it
means that there are new ways of presenting the content that may have
better success with the audience.

Also, I don't think web "sites" (web experiences?) should be a
single-stream thing. All of our projects, for example, provide most of
the text content as RSS feeds. So folks can subscribe, and read, over
whatever RSS/XML reader they prefer. They don't HAVE to have Flash, but
most of the content is very visual.


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Chaddy2222 wrote:
> On Jul 31, 8:38 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:

>> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
>> abused" is this:
>>
>> www.thefwa.com
>>
>> Many, many great Flash sites!
>>
> Hmmm, that would depend on what you think is "great".

I have to agree with you there Chad. You must have had a great time try
to read the above site! Usually bad HTML can still be accessible with a
decent browser...flash you at the mercy of the "designer". If you are
just doing body counts there will always be more bad HTML sites than
FLASH, not too many newbies, code-monkeys, bone-heads are going to shell
out the $$$ just to slap together one atrocious website...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Travis Newbury wrote:

> Do you want the player to be open source? Adobe (and Macromedia
> before them) have always given out the specs for creating SWF files.

The SWF specs have been published, but:

1. You need to agree to a fairly restrictive licence,
promising not to use them to build a competing
player; and

2. FLV is not included in the published specs.

The Flash Player is only available for Windows 98 and above, Mac OS X
and x86 versions of Linux, and because of the restrictions on the spec
licence, third parties can't use it to produce players for other
platforms -- they need to reverse engineer the format instead, making
it effectively no better than a closed, proprietary format.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 40 days, 16:47.]

demiblog 0.2.2 Released
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/29/demiblog-0.2.2/

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

SpaceGirl wrote:

> There's an opensource project around the Player too (I think!?).

It's around the ECMAScript engine used by Flash Player. Flash Player
itself is closed-source.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 40 days, 17:16.]

demiblog 0.2.2 Released
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/29/demiblog-0.2.2/

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Toby A Inkster wrote:
> Travis Newbury wrote:
>
>> Do you want the player to be open source? Adobe (and Macromedia
>> before them) have always given out the specs for creating SWF files.
>
> The SWF specs have been published, but:
>
> 1. You need to agree to a fairly restrictive licence,
> promising not to use them to build a competing
> player; and
>
> 2. FLV is not included in the published specs.

FLV can't be, as Adobe have to license the codecs it uses. They can't
give that away for free.

> The Flash Player is only available for Windows 98 and above, Mac OS X
> and x86 versions of Linux, and because of the restrictions on the spec
> licence, third parties can't use it to produce players for other
> platforms -- they need to reverse engineer the format instead, making
> it effectively no better than a closed, proprietary format.

At the same time this is a good thing. It has kept the player extremely
small and fast. OpenSource isn't all good! :)


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 31, 11:27 pm, "Jonathan N. Little"
wrote:
> Chaddy2222 wrote:
> > On Jul 31, 8:38 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
> >> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
> >> abused" is this:
>
> >>www.thefwa.com
>
> >> Many, many great Flash sites!
>
> > Hmmm, that would depend on what you think is "great".
>
> I have to agree with you there Chad. You must have had a great time try
> to read the above site! Usually bad HTML can still be accessible with a
> decent browser...flash you at the mercy of the "designer". If you are
> just doing body counts there will always be more bad HTML sites than
> FLASH, not too many newbies, code-monkeys, bone-heads are going to shell
> out the $$$ just to slap together one atrocious website...
>
Yeah, could not agree more. Although not many of the comercial sites I
have looked at in the last day or three have used flash, even
http://www.vtr.com.au have been paying atention to the Web Pages That
Suck articles that have been written about them!. Their site was
originally designed like a 3D game. This kind of proves SpaceGirls
theories wrong I think. Although people do seam to be having some kind
of obsetion with really small text on the main pages of site, WTF is
with that.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:38:22 GMT
SpaceGirl scribed:

> Chaddy2222 wrote:
>> On Jul 31, 8:02 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
>
>>> Yes Flash is abuse[d], but for every bad Flash site there are 1000s of
>>> awful HTML sites.
>>>
>> Well yes, but at least if you find a bad HTML site you can turn off
>> styleing and still get to the content that you need!.
>> You can't do that at all with a Flash site.
>
> If the site is CSS'd yes you can turn off styling. But you're adding
> another technology into the mix. HTML itself is a presentational mess.
> With CSS there is more control over the formatting, but then that too
> can be abused. In some cases you may NOT want the end user to turn off
> your styling (if your brand is important, or perhaps you provide an
> alternative site for accessibility).
>
> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
> abused" is this:
>
> www.thefwa.com
>
> Many, many great Flash sites!

Nice-looking page. But I went there in ie6, clicked on a few "links" (-at
least the finger appeared,) and nothing...

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:32:14 GMT
Chaddy2222 scribed:

> Although people do seam to be having some kind
> of obsetion with really small text on the main pages of site, WTF is
> with that.

Just so they can fit more in a viewport. I've "seen" it, too, -very much
so recently.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:25:51
GMT Travis Newbury scribed:

> On Jul 30, 5:27 pm, Neredbojias wrote:
>> > Other than getting the Flash API and hand coding a SWF file (pain
>> > in the ass, but not impossible) the only thing I know of is getting
>> > the 30 day demo of Flash or Swish
>> I thought as much but that's to be expected. What's the price of a
>> full- fledged Flash setup that some dwindling old cowpuncher could
>> make a movie with?
>
> I think it is around $699 US.

Uh huh, -or $799. I browsed the Adobe site, looking at both Flash and Flex
(? -I think that's the name). There was an 11 minute demo of a page made
with Flex, -the demo being a representation of the programming involved.
'Bout all I can say is:

YEAH, RIGHT!

I'd be dead before I learned all that shit! Not all of us are Microsoftish
Miracle Boys, and while I may sometimes bite off more than I can chew, I've
never tried to eat a brontosaurus, either. Forget it.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Neredbojias wrote:
> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:38:22 GMT
> SpaceGirl scribed:
>
>> Chaddy2222 wrote:
>>> On Jul 31, 8:02 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
>>>> Yes Flash is abuse[d], but for every bad Flash site there are 1000s of
>>>> awful HTML sites.
>>>>
>>> Well yes, but at least if you find a bad HTML site you can turn off
>>> styleing and still get to the content that you need!.
>>> You can't do that at all with a Flash site.
>> If the site is CSS'd yes you can turn off styling. But you're adding
>> another technology into the mix. HTML itself is a presentational mess.
>> With CSS there is more control over the formatting, but then that too
>> can be abused. In some cases you may NOT want the end user to turn off
>> your styling (if your brand is important, or perhaps you provide an
>> alternative site for accessibility).
>>
>> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
>> abused" is this:
>>
>> www.thefwa.com
>>
>> Many, many great Flash sites!
>
> Nice-looking page. But I went there in ie6, clicked on a few "links" (-at
> least the finger appeared,) and nothing...
>

When you click a link, the details of the producer appear in the top
right. Click again and you will be taken to their site. You need to add
the site to your "allowed popups" list or it won't work. It's well worth
investigating.

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:

> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
> abused" is this:
>
> www.thefwa.com

I cannot read the text on that site. That's good??

> Many, many great Flash sites!

--
Chris F.A. Johnson
============================================================ =======
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

SpaceGirl wrote:
>
> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
> abused" is this:
>
> www.thefwa.com

I'm sorry, but the microscopic type size and low contrast makes it
illegible. Can't read it, can't use it.

If it were HTML I could get around those issues. Not so with Flash. :(

> Many, many great Flash sites!

It's all subjective.

--
Berg

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Bergamot wrote:
> SpaceGirl wrote:
>> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
>> abused" is this:
>>
>> www.thefwa.com
>
> I'm sorry, but the microscopic type size and low contrast makes it
> illegible. Can't read it, can't use it.
>
> If it were HTML I could get around those issues. Not so with Flash. :(
>
>> Many, many great Flash sites!
>
> It's all subjective.
>

Yes, of course. Everything is. But yout one suggests you've written the
whole thing off.

This what I hate. To many short sighted people who point blank refuse to
open their eyes to anything new.

*sigh*

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
> On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
>
>> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
>> abused" is this:
>>
>> www.thefwa.com
>
> I cannot read the text on that site. That's good??
>

The content. I'm not surprised by this sort of feedback though; it's
much easier to dis something than to think about it. I feel sorry for
your clients, if you have any. :(




;)

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>> On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
>>
>>> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
>>> abused" is this:
>>>
>>> www.thefwa.com
>>
>> I cannot read the text on that site. That's good??
>>
>
> The content. I'm not surprised by this sort of feedback though; it's
> much easier to dis something than to think about it.

What else would I do with unreadable pages but diss them?

> I feel sorry for your clients, if you have any. :(

What? You think it's a good idea to publish unreadable pages?

--
Chris F.A. Johnson
============================================================ =======
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

SpaceGirl wrote:
> Bergamot wrote:
>> SpaceGirl wrote:
>>>
>>> www.thefwa.com
>>
>> It's all subjective.
>
> This what I hate. To many short sighted people who point blank refuse to
> open their eyes to anything new.

I don't follow. What's so "new" about the above site other than it's
Flash (not that I'd call Flash "new") instead of HTML? I can't read the
text so I don't really know what they're selling, but at first glance it
doesn't seem so different from any other stock photo or other gallery
type site.

> *sigh*

So what am I missing? I really want to know.

--
Berg

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:29:30 -0000, Travis Newbury
wrote:

>I have not played with Flex a lot, but from what I have read it is
>Swish on steroids
>
>Swish is great if you want to have basic animations and a little
>functionality (a slide show, splash screen, the kinds of things the
>hatter does with it, etc...) But I would never use it to write a true
>web based business application. Flex is one step above that where it
>is powerful enough to write a real application, and Flash is the king
>of them all.

Well, the one among us who actually HAS a real Flash web app
disagrees:
http://www.backwater-productions.net/RMXP_CSG/

It's WAY easier with SwishMax than Macromedia/Adobe Flash, mostly
because of the interface and object control. Coding in SwishMax is
also easier/simpler than it is in Flash in many ways.

The only downside is that a LOT of stuff in SwishMax isn't documented
well, if at all, so you REALLY have to know what you're doing and
often you have to figure things out on your own. Luckily in the Swish
community there are a lot of people like myself who document and share
what we've learned so other people can make use of it:
http://forums.swishzone.com/index.php?showtopic=42700

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:02:31 -0400, "Chris F.A. Johnson"
wrote:

>On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
>> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>> On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
>>>
>>>> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
>>>> abused" is this:
>>>>
>>>> www.thefwa.com
>>>
>>> I cannot read the text on that site. That's good??
>>>
>>
>> The content. I'm not surprised by this sort of feedback though; it's
>> much easier to dis something than to think about it.
>
> What else would I do with unreadable pages but diss them?
>
>> I feel sorry for your clients, if you have any. :(
>
> What? You think it's a good idea to publish unreadable pages?

By that deficient logic do you think it's a good idea to make websites
that the Amish can't see?

Just as there are Amish in the real world who openly reject a lot of
technological forms (including magazines) there are the Amish of the
Internet, who simply cannot deal with much outside of plain black text
on a white background. These sorts of people are often using "horse
and buggy browsers" that often neuter their ability to view and enjoy
content that is produced using higher end forms like Flash.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:16:43 -0500, Bergamot
wrote:

>> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
>> abused" is this:
>>
>> www.thefwa.com

>I'm sorry, but the microscopic type size and low contrast makes it
>illegible. Can't read it, can't use it.
>
>If it were HTML I could get around those issues. Not so with Flash. :(

Actually if it were HTML you wouldn't be able to get around that
issue, where as in Flash it's EASY to get around it.

See just as you can claim ignorance to understanding how to change
your screen resolution, which takes about 3 clicks of the mouse, I can
just as easily claim ignorance to understanding how to change the font
size in a browser which, again, takes about 3 clicks of the mouse.

>> Many, many great Flash sites!

>It's all subjective.

No, in your case it's mostly about stupidity. If you actually had
some level of intelligence it might be somewhat subjective...but for
you...no, not really.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:13:30 -0500, Bergamot
wrote:

>SpaceGirl wrote:
>> Bergamot wrote:
>>> SpaceGirl wrote:
>>>>
>>>> www.thefwa.com
>>>
>>> It's all subjective.
>>
>> This what I hate. To many short sighted people who point blank refuse to
>> open their eyes to anything new.
>
>I don't follow. What's so "new" about the above site other than it's
>Flash (not that I'd call Flash "new") instead of HTML? I can't read the
>text so I don't really know what they're selling, but at first glance it
>doesn't seem so different from any other stock photo or other gallery
>type site.
>
>> *sigh*
>
>So what am I missing? I really want to know.

No, you really don't actually. If you did, you would have taken the
same effort it took you to figure out how to increase the font size of
an HTML site in your browser to figuring out how to alter your screen
resolution in order to enlarge an ENTIRE site (not simply the text),
REGARDLESS of what it was coded with. Simply put, you sir are a
retarded Internet user. *nods*

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Bergamot wrote:

> I don't follow. What's so "new" about the above site other than it's
> Flash (not that I'd call Flash "new") instead of HTML? I can't read the
> text so I don't really know what they're selling, but at first glance it
> doesn't seem so different from any other stock photo or other gallery
> type site.

It's just a galley of Flash sites. I wasn't holding it up as an example
of Flash itself, although it is!


> So what am I missing? I really want to know.
>

Sense of adventure, passion :)


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:13:30 -0500, Bergamot
> wrote:
>
>> SpaceGirl wrote:
>>> Bergamot wrote:
>>>> SpaceGirl wrote:
>>>>> www.thefwa.com
>>>> It's all subjective.
>>> This what I hate. To many short sighted people who point blank refuse to
>>> open their eyes to anything new.
>> I don't follow. What's so "new" about the above site other than it's
>> Flash (not that I'd call Flash "new") instead of HTML? I can't read the
>> text so I don't really know what they're selling, but at first glance it
>> doesn't seem so different from any other stock photo or other gallery
>> type site.
>>
>>> *sigh*
>> So what am I missing? I really want to know.
>
> No, you really don't actually. If you did, you would have taken the
> same effort it took you to figure out how to increase the font size of
> an HTML site in your browser to figuring out how to alter your screen
> resolution in order to enlarge an ENTIRE site (not simply the text),
> REGARDLESS of what it was coded with. Simply put, you sir are a
> retarded Internet user. *nods*

Ack... no he's not.


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:39:14 -0400, "Chris F.A. Johnson"
wrote:

>On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
>
>> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
>> abused" is this:
>>
>> www.thefwa.com
>
> I cannot read the text on that site. That's good??

Chris, I went to your site and I can't read your text either, is that
good?

Not only was your text too small to read, but you used backgrounds
with conflicting contrasts behind the razor thin fonts which pretty
much makes it impossible to read no matter what size you make it.

Oh, PS, just as you are too ignorant to figure out how to adjust your
screen resolution to enlarge an entire site, I am too ignorant to
figure out how to use my browser to adjust the text of your schlock
site. ^_^

....let me know if I'm bitch slapping you too hard with reality, mmkay?

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On 31 Jul 2007 17:30:10 GMT, Neredbojias
wrote:

>Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:32:14 GMT
>Chaddy2222 scribed:
>
>> Although people do seam to be having some kind
>> of obsetion with really small text on the main pages of site, WTF is
>> with that.
>
>Just so they can fit more in a viewport. I've "seen" it, too, -very much
>so recently.

Most people who don't suffer from being a retard can figure out how to
adjust their screen resolution...in fact a lot of browsers even offer
right click solutions to change the display resolution of a site
without even having to alter your actual screen resolution...stuff
like that though, it's WAY too complicated for Internet retards to
figure out. *nods*

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:44:35
GMT SpaceGirl scribed:

>>> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
>>> abused" is this:
>>>
>>> www.thefwa.com
>>>
>>> Many, many great Flash sites!
>>
>> Nice-looking page. But I went there in ie6, clicked on a few "links"
>> (-at least the finger appeared,) and nothing...
>>
>
> When you click a link, the details of the producer appear in the top
> right. Click again and you will be taken to their site. You need to
> add the site to your "allowed popups" list or it won't work. It's well
> worth
> investigating.

Okay, I'll check tonight.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
> On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
>> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>> On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
>>>
>>>> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
>>>> abused" is this:
>>>>
>>>> www.thefwa.com
>>>
>>> I cannot read the text on that site. That's good??
>>>
>>
>> The content. I'm not surprised by this sort of feedback though; it's
>> much easier to dis something than to think about it.
>
> What else would I do with unreadable pages but diss them?
>
>> I feel sorry for your clients, if you have any. :(
>
> What? You think it's a good idea to publish unreadable pages?

how do you figure that site's unreadable?

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 04:19:13 -0700, Chaddy2222
wrote:

>> > Well yes, but at least if you find a bad HTML site you can turn off
>> > styleing and still get to the content that you need!.
>> > You can't do that at all with a Flash site.

>> If the site is CSS'd yes you can turn off styling. But you're adding
>> another technology into the mix. HTML itself is a presentational mess.
>Yep, although it was / is not really ment to be used for presentation.
>It being HTML in this case. It's just ment to describe the function of
>a particular thing, a block of text as a paragraph as an example.
>Although at times the technology needs to be used in a way which some
>people will not agree with, but in those types of situations I think
>the best a designer can do is to provide some kind of fall-back method
>so people can still get some value out of the content.

That's good when you want to keep in mind retards, I keep retards in
mind on my primary site where I have a plain text fall back version,
HOWEVER, for those that aren't retarded, they understand that content
and design are VERY much interlinked and dependant on one another.

Please try and read this...if you aren't retarded:
: http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-12516-0.html?forumID=1&thread ID=34733&messageID=639263&start=-9994


>Hmmm, that would depend on what you think is "great". Although Flash
>is ideal for art type sites and those kind of sites that don't
>actually require anyone to gain access to the information (music /
>band sites are a bit of an exception to the rule). Due to the fact
>that a lot of bands need to use extensive branding (specific fonts etc
>that can't be provided *easily* any other way.

WRONG!

Even for just a PLAIN TEXT SITE, Flash is VASTLY superior to HTML in a
whole variety of ways, from being able to embed fonts, to having
proper font anti-aliasing, to having true liquid sized text as opposed
to just liquid space stretched text.

Again, it's all about the designer, yes in the hands of an AMATEUR it
may not be possible to create a site like that and, yes, you amateurs
should stick to kiddie, training pants languages like HTML. Simply
put, Flash was NOT made for amateur web designers, it's made for
PROFESSIONALS and ARTISTS. It's the difference between oil paints and
Crayolas. You would NEVER give a three year old a box of oil paints,
Crayolas, yes, oil paints...no.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Neredbojias wrote:
> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:25:51
> GMT Travis Newbury scribed:
>
>> On Jul 30, 5:27 pm, Neredbojias wrote:
>>>> Other than getting the Flash API and hand coding a SWF file (pain
>>>> in the ass, but not impossible) the only thing I know of is getting
>>>> the 30 day demo of Flash or Swish
>>> I thought as much but that's to be expected. What's the price of a
>>> full- fledged Flash setup that some dwindling old cowpuncher could
>>> make a movie with?
>> I think it is around $699 US.
>
> Uh huh, -or $799. I browsed the Adobe site, looking at both Flash and Flex
> (? -I think that's the name). There was an 11 minute demo of a page made
> with Flex, -the demo being a representation of the programming involved.
> 'Bout all I can say is:
>
> YEAH, RIGHT!
>
> I'd be dead before I learned all that shit! Not all of us are Microsoftish
> Miracle Boys, and while I may sometimes bite off more than I can chew, I've
> never tried to eat a brontosaurus, either. Forget it.
>

Chewy, but nice :)

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 04:19:13 -0700, Chaddy2222
> wrote:
>
>>>> Well yes, but at least if you find a bad HTML site you can turn off
>>>> styleing and still get to the content that you need!.
>>>> You can't do that at all with a Flash site.
>
>>> If the site is CSS'd yes you can turn off styling. But you're adding
>>> another technology into the mix. HTML itself is a presentational
>>> mess.
>> Yep, although it was / is not really ment to be used for
>> presentation. It being HTML in this case. It's just ment to describe
>> the function of a particular thing, a block of text as a paragraph
>> as an example. Although at times the technology needs to be used in
>> a way which some people will not agree with, but in those types of
>> situations I think the best a designer can do is to provide some
>> kind of fall-back method so people can still get some value out of
>> the content.
>
> That's good when you want to keep in mind retards, I keep retards in
> mind on my primary site where I have a plain text fall back version,
> HOWEVER, for those that aren't retarded, they understand that content
> and design are VERY much interlinked and dependant on one another.
>
> Please try and read this...if you aren't retarded:
>> http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-12516-0.html?forumID=1&thread ID=34733&messageID=639263&start=-9994
>
>
>> Hmmm, that would depend on what you think is "great". Although Flash
>> is ideal for art type sites and those kind of sites that don't
>> actually require anyone to gain access to the information (music /
>> band sites are a bit of an exception to the rule). Due to the fact
>> that a lot of bands need to use extensive branding (specific fonts
>> etc that can't be provided *easily* any other way.
>
> WRONG!
>
> Even for just a PLAIN TEXT SITE, Flash is VASTLY superior to HTML in a
> whole variety of ways, from being able to embed fonts, to having
> proper font anti-aliasing, to having true liquid sized text as opposed
> to just liquid space stretched text.
>
> Again, it's all about the designer, yes in the hands of an AMATEUR it
> may not be possible to create a site like that and, yes, you amateurs
> should stick to kiddie, training pants languages like HTML. Simply
> put, Flash was NOT made for amateur web designers, it's made for
> PROFESSIONALS and ARTISTS. It's the difference between oil paints and
> Crayolas. You would NEVER give a three year old a box of oil paints,
> Crayolas, yes, oil paints...no.

chili?

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On 2007-07-31, G wrote:
> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>> On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
>>> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>>> On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
>>>>> abused" is this:
>>>>>
>>>>> www.thefwa.com
>>>>
>>>> I cannot read the text on that site. That's good??
>>>>
>>>
>>> The content. I'm not surprised by this sort of feedback though; it's
>>> much easier to dis something than to think about it.
>>
>> What else would I do with unreadable pages but diss them?
>>
>>> I feel sorry for your clients, if you have any. :(
>>
>> What? You think it's a good idea to publish unreadable pages?
>
> how do you figure that site's unreadable?

Because the text is too small for me to read.

--
Chris F.A. Johnson
============================================================ =======
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Neredbojias wrote:
> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:00:22
> GMT SpaceGirl scribed:
>
>> Neredbojias wrote:
>>> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Mon, 30 Jul 2007
>>> 15:11:22 GMT Travis Newbury scribed:
>>>
>>>> On Jul 30, 1:04 am, Neredbojias wrote:
>>>>> So saying, the main trouble I have with Flash is
>>>>> that it's still proprietary. If Abode were smart, they'd
>>>>> open-source it.
>>>> Do you want the player to be open source? Adobe (and Macromedia
>>>> before them) have always given out the specs for creating SWF files.
>>>> Anyone can build a SWF file using a text editor if you like. You do
>>>> not need Adobe Flash to create and SWF file, or to build a custom
>>>> tool that will create SWF files.
>>>>
>>>> I do not agree that the player should be open source. I like having
>>>> a single source for the player.
>>>>
>>>> Why do you think they would they be smart to open source it?
>>> You 'n Hatter seem to agree on this so perhaps I mis-spoke. Guess I
>>> just want it to be free, like html and css and javascript, so
>>> everybody can "hop on the train" and really test its capabilities.
>>> Right now, it reminds me too much of Active-X and like debuncles.
>>>
>> It is free. You can download Flex for free, and take a look. There's
>> an opensource project around the Player too (I think!?). Anyway there
>> are plenty of ways of creating Flash these days, and you don't need to
>> spend a single $.
>
> Okay, I'll just hafta dig into it and stop procrastinating. Btw, regarding
> a comment you made up thare ^ somewhere (-and to show my action-media
> ignorance,) what's the difference between Shockwave and Flash? I thought
> they were virtually the same 'cept maybe for versions.
>

Shockwave is a full blown presentation and application "thing". It's
pretty large, but has full 3D and things like that in it. It can be used
for creating stand alone applications, screensavers etc etc. I guess
it's long dead now that AIR is around.

Flash is lightweight and designed for WWW primarily, the player is only
a few Mb.

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Travis Newbury wrote:
> On Jul 30, 6:02 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
>>> Other than getting the Flash API and hand coding a SWF file (pain in
>>> the ass, but not impossible) the only thing I know of is getting the
>>> 30 day demo of Flash or Swish
>> Flex :)
>
> I have not played with Flex a lot, but from what I have read it is
> Swish on steroids

Flex is nothing like Swish. Flex allows you to generate Flash on the fly
from your server. I don't mean loading content in; I mean literally
drawing elements as and when you need them then delivering it across the
net. It has stacks of built in UI tools, meaning you could build VAST
applications in it. It also ties into the .NET and Java platforms, so
you can use Flex to create the presentation layer of very large
distributed applications. It's hardcore server stuff really; it uses
it's own markup language (MXML), which you can also embed with AS3 to
generate some amazingly powerful stuff.

Still early days for Flex I think, but we'll see more and more of it in
the future I'm sure.

However, if you want to keep life simple and you are not designing
Amazon.com 2.0, Flash CS3 + AS3 + server side web services are really
hot too, and you don't need to be running Flex, however integration to
larger apps would be harder.

I'm no Flex genius either so maybe someone on the alt.macromedia.flash
group can sum up Flex better than I :)

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

In article <5h9grrF3g78l0U1@mid.individual.net>,
SpaceGirl wrote:

> This what I hate. To many short sighted people who point blank refuse to
> open their eyes to anything new.

You might have phrased that better.

--
dorayme

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:19:48 -0400, "Chris F.A. Johnson"
wrote:

>On 2007-07-31, G wrote:
>> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>> On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
>>>> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>>>> On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
>>>>>> abused" is this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.thefwa.com
>>>>>
>>>>> I cannot read the text on that site. That's good??
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The content. I'm not surprised by this sort of feedback though; it's
>>>> much easier to dis something than to think about it.
>>>
>>> What else would I do with unreadable pages but diss them?
>>>
>>>> I feel sorry for your clients, if you have any. :(
>>>
>>> What? You think it's a good idea to publish unreadable pages?
>>
>> how do you figure that site's unreadable?
>
> Because the text is too small for me to read.

And because you're too stupid to figure out how to alter your screen
resolution.

It's funny for someone like you to be complaining about text being
hard to read, what with your own hideous razor thin black text on
yellow/white/gold mesh backgrounds that you're using for your
navigation bar.

One really does have to wonder...are you a hypocrite...or simply
stupid? *shrugs*

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:11:25 -0700, "G" <.@.> wrote:

>Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 04:19:13 -0700, Chaddy2222
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Well yes, but at least if you find a bad HTML site you can turn off
>>>>> styleing and still get to the content that you need!.
>>>>> You can't do that at all with a Flash site.
>>
>>>> If the site is CSS'd yes you can turn off styling. But you're adding
>>>> another technology into the mix. HTML itself is a presentational
>>>> mess.
>>> Yep, although it was / is not really ment to be used for
>>> presentation. It being HTML in this case. It's just ment to describe
>>> the function of a particular thing, a block of text as a paragraph
>>> as an example. Although at times the technology needs to be used in
>>> a way which some people will not agree with, but in those types of
>>> situations I think the best a designer can do is to provide some
>>> kind of fall-back method so people can still get some value out of
>>> the content.
>>
>> That's good when you want to keep in mind retards, I keep retards in
>> mind on my primary site where I have a plain text fall back version,
>> HOWEVER, for those that aren't retarded, they understand that content
>> and design are VERY much interlinked and dependant on one another.
>>
>> Please try and read this...if you aren't retarded:
>>> http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-12516-0.html?forumID=1&thread ID=34733&messageID=639263&start=-9994
>>
>>
>>> Hmmm, that would depend on what you think is "great". Although Flash
>>> is ideal for art type sites and those kind of sites that don't
>>> actually require anyone to gain access to the information (music /
>>> band sites are a bit of an exception to the rule). Due to the fact
>>> that a lot of bands need to use extensive branding (specific fonts
>>> etc that can't be provided *easily* any other way.
>>
>> WRONG!
>>
>> Even for just a PLAIN TEXT SITE, Flash is VASTLY superior to HTML in a
>> whole variety of ways, from being able to embed fonts, to having
>> proper font anti-aliasing, to having true liquid sized text as opposed
>> to just liquid space stretched text.
>>
>> Again, it's all about the designer, yes in the hands of an AMATEUR it
>> may not be possible to create a site like that and, yes, you amateurs
>> should stick to kiddie, training pants languages like HTML. Simply
>> put, Flash was NOT made for amateur web designers, it's made for
>> PROFESSIONALS and ARTISTS. It's the difference between oil paints and
>> Crayolas. You would NEVER give a three year old a box of oil paints,
>> Crayolas, yes, oil paints...no.
>
>chili?

Did you ever see that movie with Michael Keaton, Mr. Mom?

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 09:02:37 +1000, dorayme
wrote:

>In article <5h9grrF3g78l0U1@mid.individual.net>,
> SpaceGirl wrote:
>
>> This what I hate. To many short sighted people who point blank refuse to
>> open their eyes to anything new.
>
>You might have phrased that better.

Yeah, a bit harsher I think would have been much better. Those short
sighted retards, they don't learn so well unless you just take them
over your knee and verbally blister their ass eight ways to last week.
Don't ever be forgiving or accomodating with stupidity, beat it,
senselessly, that's the only real viable way to deal with it.
Otherwise you're not apart of the solution, you're apart of the
problem.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

In article ,
"Chris F.A. Johnson" wrote:

> On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
> > Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
> >> On 2007-07-31, SpaceGirl wrote:
> >>
> >>> The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
> >>> abused" is this:
> >>>
> >>> www.thefwa.com
> >>
> >> I cannot read the text on that site. That's good??
> >>

I went to that url above and clicked on something and it went to

http://www.nudiejeans.com/fitguide/fitguide.php

and was amused and impressed. I not impressed by having to wait a
couple of times for things to load on fastish broadband. I was
impressed by the moving film, the animated effects, and other
things Flash is good at. It is not something that can easily be
shown to people who do not have the appropriate sense of things.
They cannot be shown easily.

As for the text, I clicked on some link where I thought there
must be some:

http://www.nudiejeans.com/storefinder/

and the text responded fine to enlargement. It being in HTML
presumably. One can combine the best of both worlds.

--
dorayme

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:11:25 -0700, "G" <.@.> wrote:
>
>> Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
>>> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 04:19:13 -0700, Chaddy2222
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Well yes, but at least if you find a bad HTML site you can turn
>>>>>> off styleing and still get to the content that you need!.
>>>>>> You can't do that at all with a Flash site.
>>>
>>>>> If the site is CSS'd yes you can turn off styling. But you're
>>>>> adding another technology into the mix. HTML itself is a
>>>>> presentational mess.
>>>> Yep, although it was / is not really ment to be used for
>>>> presentation. It being HTML in this case. It's just ment to
>>>> describe the function of a particular thing, a block of text as a
>>>> paragraph as an example. Although at times the technology needs to
>>>> be used in a way which some people will not agree with, but in
>>>> those types of situations I think the best a designer can do is to
>>>> provide some kind of fall-back method so people can still get some
>>>> value out of the content.
>>>
>>> That's good when you want to keep in mind retards, I keep retards in
>>> mind on my primary site where I have a plain text fall back version,
>>> HOWEVER, for those that aren't retarded, they understand that
>>> content and design are VERY much interlinked and dependant on one
>>> another.
>>>
>>> Please try and read this...if you aren't retarded:
>>>> http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-12516-0.html?forumID=1&thread ID=34733&messageID=639263&start=-9994
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hmmm, that would depend on what you think is "great". Although
>>>> Flash is ideal for art type sites and those kind of sites that
>>>> don't actually require anyone to gain access to the information
>>>> (music / band sites are a bit of an exception to the rule). Due to
>>>> the fact that a lot of bands need to use extensive branding
>>>> (specific fonts etc that can't be provided *easily* any other way.
>>>
>>> WRONG!
>>>
>>> Even for just a PLAIN TEXT SITE, Flash is VASTLY superior to HTML
>>> in a whole variety of ways, from being able to embed fonts, to
>>> having proper font anti-aliasing, to having true liquid sized text
>>> as opposed to just liquid space stretched text.
>>>
>>> Again, it's all about the designer, yes in the hands of an AMATEUR
>>> it may not be possible to create a site like that and, yes, you
>>> amateurs should stick to kiddie, training pants languages like
>>> HTML. Simply put, Flash was NOT made for amateur web designers,
>>> it's made for PROFESSIONALS and ARTISTS. It's the difference
>>> between oil paints and Crayolas. You would NEVER give a three year
>>> old a box of oil paints, Crayolas, yes, oil paints...no.
>>
>> chili?
>
> Did you ever see that movie with Michael Keaton, Mr. Mom?

yes, and lived it for awhile too.
;)

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> On 31 Jul 2007 17:30:10 GMT, Neredbojias
> wrote:

> Most people who don't suffer from being a retard can figure out how to
> adjust their screen resolution...in fact a lot of browsers even offer
> right click solutions to change the display resolution of a site
> without even having to alter your actual screen resolution...stuff
> like that though, it's WAY too complicated for Internet retards to
> figure out. *nods*

Well that is just it, the problem with said site is the flash is
unscalable via the browser and the only option is change my monitor
resolution...or say "screw this" and more on to another site...

Flash accessibility: "Access straight to another site"


--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:50:21 -0400, "Jonathan N. Little"
wrote:

>> Most people who don't suffer from being a retard can figure out how to
>> adjust their screen resolution...in fact a lot of browsers even offer
>> right click solutions to change the display resolution of a site
>> without even having to alter your actual screen resolution...stuff
>> like that though, it's WAY too complicated for Internet retards to
>> figure out. *nods*

>Well that is just it, the problem with said site is the flash is
>unscalable via the browser and the only option is change my monitor
>resolution...or say "screw this" and more on to another site...

Ahhh, you see, here we have a retard...the retard babbles...but the
retard won't listen. That's the problem with retards, they just don't
fuckin comprehend. I mean it doesn't:
http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/OS-Enhancements/Quick-Re solution-Changer.shtml
fucking:
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Tweak/Video-Tweak/MultiRes.shtm l
matter:
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Tweak/Video-Tweak/Quick-Res.sht ml
how many:
http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/System-Miscellaneous/Fas tRes.shtml
links:
http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/System-Miscellaneous/Res -O-Matic.shtml
you post:
http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/OS-Enhancements/ChangeRe s.shtml
....retards just don't fuckin get it. *shrugs*

What's really funny is that most of those actually require even LESS
effort than it does to alter the text size in your browser. Most
browsers require at least three clicks, most of those only require
two...or less if you set them up to work on keyboart shortcuts.

Hell, most graphics cards come with their own quick resolution
settings, like on my ATI AIW card I've got it set up to work on the
'F' function keys.

>Flash accessibility: "Access straight to another site"

WRONG!

Flash is the ONLY solution that provides EASY, FAST, AUTOMATIC perfect
liquid resizing. With HTML you're always going to have to resort to
browser tweaks to change the text display, with Flash, the developer
can create true, perfect liquid sites with ease:
http://www.sarcastic-caret.net/wedding/main.swf

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:23:07
GMT Onideus Mad Hatter scribed:

> On 31 Jul 2007 17:30:10 GMT, Neredbojias
> wrote:
>
>>Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007
>>15:32:14 GMT Chaddy2222 scribed:
>>
>>> Although people do seam to be having some kind
>>> of obsetion with really small text on the main pages of site, WTF is
>>> with that.
>>
>>Just so they can fit more in a viewport. I've "seen" it, too, -very
>>much so recently.
>
> Most people who don't suffer from being a retard can figure out how to
> adjust their screen resolution...in fact a lot of browsers even offer
> right click solutions to change the display resolution of a site
> without even having to alter your actual screen resolution...stuff
> like that though, it's WAY too complicated for Internet retards to
> figure out. *nods*

He he, sometimes your subtlety astounds me...

And, hey, since we seem to be in agreement here on a lot of things, can I
call you "Cap"?

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Aug 1, 7:30 am, Onideus Mad Hatter productions.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 04:19:13 -0700, Chaddy2222
>
> wrote:
> >> > Well yes, but at least if you find a bad HTML site you can turn off
> >> > styleing and still get to the content that you need!.
> >> > You can't do that at all with a Flash site.
> >> If the site is CSS'd yes you can turn off styling. But you're adding
> >> another technology into the mix. HTML itself is a presentational mess.
> >Yep, although it was / is not really ment to be used for presentation.
> >It being HTML in this case. It's just ment to describe the function of
> >a particular thing, a block of text as a paragraph as an example.
> >Although at times the technology needs to be used in a way which some
> >people will not agree with, but in those types of situations I think
> >the best a designer can do is to provide some kind of fall-back method
> >so people can still get some value out of the content.
>
> That's good when you want to keep in mind retards, I keep retards in
> mind on my primary site where I have a plain text fall back version,
> HOWEVER, for those that aren't retarded, they understand that content
> and design are VERY much interlinked and dependant on one another.
>
> Please try and read this...if you aren't retarded:
> :http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-12516-0.html?forumID=1&threa dID=34733&...
>
> >Hmmm, that would depend on what you think is "great". Although Flash
> >is ideal for art type sites and those kind of sites that don't
> >actually require anyone to gain access to the information (music /
> >band sites are a bit of an exception to the rule). Due to the fact
> >that a lot of bands need to use extensive branding (specific fonts etc
> >that can't be provided *easily* any other way.
>
> WRONG!
>
Hmmm well it's not really, as you do need a plug-in to view Flash and
a lot of people can't use it. Did you not read what I wrote about me
not being able to read any of your sites content with my screen reader
(text to speech software). I would need to actually disable Flash to
read your site that way. Admitedly the developers of the text to
speech packages could do more work in that area, especially with more
music / band websites being Flash based.
Oh and I do agree with your ideas in that article.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:50:21 -0400, "Jonathan N. Little"
> wrote:
>
>>> Most people who don't suffer from being a retard can figure out how to
>>> adjust their screen resolution...in fact a lot of browsers even offer
>>> right click solutions to change the display resolution of a site
>>> without even having to alter your actual screen resolution...stuff
>>> like that though, it's WAY too complicated for Internet retards to
>>> figure out. *nods*
>
>> Well that is just it, the problem with said site is the flash is
>> unscalable via the browser and the only option is change my monitor
>> resolution...or say "screw this" and more on to another site...
>
> Ahhh, you see, here we have a retard...the retard babbles...but the
> retard won't listen. That's the problem with retards, they just don't
> fuckin comprehend. I mean it doesn't:
> http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/OS-Enhancements/Quick-Re solution-Changer.shtml
> fucking:



Well, as apparent by your "designs", you assume wrongly that I am using
my browser maximized. Sure, I can change my screen resolution but I
*shouldn't* have to! I have other windows open, I just need to enlarge a
site where the moron set the base font size < 100%...If it wasn't a crap
flash site all I'd have to do is a could of CTRL + taps and the text is
legible in that window with no futzing my desktop.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:56:17 GMT
Duende scribed:

> On 31 Jul 2007 Neredbojias wrote in alt.html
>
>> I've never tried to eat a brontosaurus, either.
>
> Your new xface looks gay. Have you switched over?

That's Al Pacino, you double-ended sword swallower!

(Hey, I sounded a bit like OM Hatter there for a minute, didn't I?)

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:06:07
GMT SpaceGirl scribed:

>> Uh huh, -or $799. I browsed the Adobe site, looking at both Flash
>> and Flex (? -I think that's the name). There was an 11 minute demo
>> of a page made with Flex, -the demo being a representation of the
>> programming involved. 'Bout all I can say is:
>>
>> YEAH, RIGHT!
>>
>> I'd be dead before I learned all that shit! Not all of us are
>> Microsoftish Miracle Boys, and while I may sometimes bite off more
>> than I can chew, I've never tried to eat a brontosaurus, either.
>> Forget it.
>>
>
> Chewy, but nice :)

Hell, I'd rather eat a shark (-Blinky excepted.)

Seriously, it looks prett-yy complicated. I'm just a down-on-the-farm good
ol' country boy who's currently working on the next "Saucy Aussie" stamp
so, ergo, learning a whole plethora of new commands, procedures, and
techniques doesn't particularly appeal to me or my thinking machine at the
moment. Besides, seeing Duende around reminds me of what can happen when
you take too deep a plunge, so to speak.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:38:15
GMT SpaceGirl scribed:

>>> It is free. You can download Flex for free, and take a look. There's
>>> an opensource project around the Player too (I think!?). Anyway
>>> there are plenty of ways of creating Flash these days, and you don't
>>> need to spend a single $.
>>
>> Okay, I'll just hafta dig into it and stop procrastinating. Btw,
>> regarding a comment you made up thare ^ somewhere (-and to show my
>> action-media ignorance,) what's the difference between Shockwave and
>> Flash? I thought they were virtually the same 'cept maybe for
>> versions.
>>
>
> Shockwave is a full blown presentation and application "thing". It's
> pretty large, but has full 3D and things like that in it. It can be
> used for creating stand alone applications, screensavers etc etc. I
> guess it's long dead now that AIR is around.
>
> Flash is lightweight and designed for WWW primarily, the player is
> only a few Mb.

Er, what a shockwave...

Well, in the interests of neo-nero:nerd harmony, I've installed Flash on my
copies of ie, seachimp, and opera (-was already on ff.) Will admit that
the 'F' sites I've hit so far haven't been very obnoxious, though there's
plenty of time. I found it interesting that one needs to have Flash
installed to view content on CBS Innertube even though you still must have
WMP or Real Player, too.

Thanks for the info.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

SpaceGirl wrote:
> Bergamot wrote:
>
>> I don't follow. What's so "new" about the above site other than it's
>> Flash (not that I'd call Flash "new") instead of HTML? I can't read the
>> text so I don't really know what they're selling, but at first glance it
>> doesn't seem so different from any other stock photo or other gallery
>> type site.
>
> It's just a galley of Flash sites. I wasn't holding it up as an example
> of Flash itself, although it is!

Ah, now I see. We're supposed to investigate the sites it points to, not
the site itself. You probably should have mentioned that. I will look at
a few later, but frankly I don't expect to find much there that
interests me. I don't use the web as a source of entertainment, and if I
can't read the text it's gonna be thumbs down no matter how it looks.

>> So what am I missing? I really want to know.
>
> Sense of adventure, passion :)

My sense of adventure is mostly reserved for the great outdoors. 8-)
"Passion" isn't a word I associate with web stuff much, except as it
relates to usability and accessibility. ;)

--
Berg

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On 01 Aug 2007 03:47:45 GMT, Neredbojias
wrote:

>Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:38:15
>GMT SpaceGirl scribed:
>
>>>> It is free. You can download Flex for free, and take a look. There's
>>>> an opensource project around the Player too (I think!?). Anyway
>>>> there are plenty of ways of creating Flash these days, and you don't
>>>> need to spend a single $.
>>>
>>> Okay, I'll just hafta dig into it and stop procrastinating. Btw,
>>> regarding a comment you made up thare ^ somewhere (-and to show my
>>> action-media ignorance,) what's the difference between Shockwave and
>>> Flash? I thought they were virtually the same 'cept maybe for
>>> versions.
>>>
>>
>> Shockwave is a full blown presentation and application "thing". It's
>> pretty large, but has full 3D and things like that in it. It can be
>> used for creating stand alone applications, screensavers etc etc. I
>> guess it's long dead now that AIR is around.
>>
>> Flash is lightweight and designed for WWW primarily, the player is
>> only a few Mb.
>
>Er, what a shockwave...
>
>Well, in the interests of neo-nero:nerd harmony, I've installed Flash on my
>copies of ie, seachimp, and opera (-was already on ff.) Will admit that
>the 'F' sites I've hit so far haven't been very obnoxious, though there's
>plenty of time. I found it interesting that one needs to have Flash
>installed to view content on CBS Innertube even though you still must have
>WMP or Real Player, too.
>
>Thanks for the info.

Wait, you didn't have Flash before?

Tsch, tsch, tsch...you have no idea what you were missing out on.
Here, let me show you: www.youtube.com ^_^

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:24:41 -0700, Chaddy2222
wrote:

>Hmmm well it's not really, as you do need a plug-in to view Flash and
>a lot of people can't use it.

WRONG! You need a browser to view a website and a computer to go
online and an Internet connection to visit a site, so really, out of
all that, installing Flash is pretty much the EASIEST part of the
equation and the one that requires the LEAST amount of effort. Flash
installs itself automagically in just a few seconds on a broadband
connection with no more than a couple clicks from the user. And what
do you mean a lot of people can't use it? Flash works on pretty much
ANYTHING, unless you're some idiot running some obscure hardware and
software combination like a PowerPC running Linux...although even then
there are work arounds to get Flash to work.

>Did you not read what I wrote about me
>not being able to read any of your sites content with my screen reader
>(text to speech software). I would need to actually disable Flash to
>read your site that way.

Um, hello, the only time you would be using a screen reader is IF YOU
WERE FUCKING BLIND! And if you were blind...why in the fuck would you
have Flash enabled?

I mean maybe if you wanna try and claim you're simply illiterate...
*rolls eyes*

Further, if it was THAT important to you, why wouldn't you simply copy
the text portions and paste them into say Notepad?

Or simply disable javascript. On my Backwater site it's not actually
detecting the presence of Flash, it's detecting the presence of
javascript. The reason I and many other developers do it that way is
that it's much easier to temporarily disable javascript than it is to
disable Flash.

>Admitedly the developers of the text to
>speech packages could do more work in that area, especially with more
>music / band websites being Flash based.

And everything else being Flash based. Really, the problem isn't with
Flash, the problem is with those third party software developers who
are simply lazy fucking antediluvian bastards. I mean if Google can
setup their search engine to spider all the text content in a Flash
file...yeah, anybody can do it, there is no excuse. Of course there
is also blame to be put on the USERS who WANT that functionality since
it's largely up to you to contact those third party vendors and tell
them what functionality you're looking for. If they get enough people
asking for it, they'll develop it.

>Oh and I do agree with your ideas in that article.

Yay, you read it, congratulations you're not retarded.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:16:43 -0500, Bergamot
> wrote:
>>I'm sorry, but the microscopic type size and low contrast makes it
>>illegible. Can't read it, can't use it.
>>
>>If it were HTML I could get around those issues. Not so with Flash. :(
>
> Actually if it were HTML you wouldn't be able to get around that
> issue, where as in Flash it's EASY to get around it.

Huh? Invoking a user stylesheet or disabling CSS altogether are easy
ways to get around a lot of bad HTML (and CSS) designs. I do it
regularly now (that's sad, don't you think?). It's not possible to do
that with Flash.

> See just as you can claim ignorance to understanding how to change
> your screen resolution

There is nothing wrong with my screen settings. I don't have issues with
any other app I run, just badly designed web sites. It would be silly to
change my whole system just for them.

> No, in your case it's mostly about stupidity.

LOL. I see you're an expert on the subject. ;)

--
Berg

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:29:16 -0400, "Jonathan N. Little"
wrote:

>Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:50:21 -0400, "Jonathan N. Little"
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Most people who don't suffer from being a retard can figure out how to
>>>> adjust their screen resolution...in fact a lot of browsers even offer
>>>> right click solutions to change the display resolution of a site
>>>> without even having to alter your actual screen resolution...stuff
>>>> like that though, it's WAY too complicated for Internet retards to
>>>> figure out. *nods*
>>
>>> Well that is just it, the problem with said site is the flash is
>>> unscalable via the browser and the only option is change my monitor
>>> resolution...or say "screw this" and more on to another site...
>>
>> Ahhh, you see, here we have a retard...the retard babbles...but the
>> retard won't listen. That's the problem with retards, they just don't
>> fuckin comprehend. I mean it doesn't:
>> http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/OS-Enhancements/Quick-Re solution-Changer.shtml
>> fucking:
>
>
>
>Well, as apparent by your "designs", you assume wrongly that I am using
>my browser maximized. Sure, I can change my screen resolution but I
>*shouldn't* have to!

One...whether your browser is maximized or not has absolutely NOTHING
to do with ANYTHING being discussed here nor would it make ANY
difference regardless.

Two...your "argument", if you can even sum up the effort not to cringe
in shame for calling it that, is completely fucking absurd. I mean
you might just as well say that you *shouldn't* have to use a computer
to view a website or that you *shouldn't* have to use toilet paper to
take a shit.

Three...did I mention you were a retard, because you are.

>I have other windows open, I just need to enlarge a
>site where the moron set the base font size < 100%...If it wasn't a crap
>flash site all I'd have to do is a could of CTRL + taps and the text is
>legible in that window with no futzing my desktop.

As you said, you *shouldn't* have to do all those CTRL + taps to make
the text legible...Flash let's you do just that:
http://www.sarcastic-caret.net/wedding/main.swf

....HTML...not so much. With HTML yer fucked either way, Flash
provides the ONLY viable CROSS COMPATIBLE solution for true liquid
sites.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:51:59 -0500, Bergamot
wrote:

>SpaceGirl wrote:
>> Bergamot wrote:
>>
>>> I don't follow. What's so "new" about the above site other than it's
>>> Flash (not that I'd call Flash "new") instead of HTML? I can't read the
>>> text so I don't really know what they're selling, but at first glance it
>>> doesn't seem so different from any other stock photo or other gallery
>>> type site.
>>
>> It's just a galley of Flash sites. I wasn't holding it up as an example
>> of Flash itself, although it is!
>
>Ah, now I see. We're supposed to investigate the sites it points to, not
>the site itself. You probably should have mentioned that. I will look at
>a few later, but frankly I don't expect to find much there that
>interests me. I don't use the web as a source of entertainment, and if I
>can't read the text it's gonna be thumbs down no matter how it looks.
>
>>> So what am I missing? I really want to know.
>>
>> Sense of adventure, passion :)
>
>My sense of adventure is mostly reserved for the great outdoors. 8-)
>"Passion" isn't a word I associate with web stuff much, except as it
>relates to usability and accessibility. ;)

....you must be terribly stunted as far as creativity. I pity people
like you, I really do. Although, they do say ignorance is bliss.
*shrugs*

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:12:06 -0500, Bergamot
wrote:

>Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:16:43 -0500, Bergamot
>> wrote:
>>>I'm sorry, but the microscopic type size and low contrast makes it
>>>illegible. Can't read it, can't use it.
>>>
>>>If it were HTML I could get around those issues. Not so with Flash. :(
>>
>> Actually if it were HTML you wouldn't be able to get around that
>> issue, where as in Flash it's EASY to get around it.
>
>Huh? Invoking a user stylesheet or disabling CSS altogether are easy
>ways to get around a lot of bad HTML (and CSS) designs. I do it
>regularly now (that's sad, don't you think?).

Yes, it is quite sad...but not really in the way you think.

>It's not possible to do that with Flash.

Pffft, don't be absurd, you can style Flash just as easily as you can
HTML:
http://www.backwater-productions.net/_test_platform/Forum_Te mplate/

....fuckin DUH.

That prototype site uses a combination of both XML and CSS to style
the content.

Again, it's not about the technology, it's about the developer and as
I said...dribbling little children who can't keep their pants dry
ought to be in HTML training panties...Flash is for big kids, not for
you.

>> See just as you can claim ignorance to understanding how to change
>> your screen resolution

>There is nothing wrong with my screen settings. I don't have issues with
>any other app I run, just badly designed web sites. It would be silly to
>change my whole system just for them.

....actually if your screen settings are making text too small to
read...you do have a problem with your display settings. Why on earth
your stupid ass is using an ultra high display setting and then
over-compensating for it by using bloated default text and icon
sizes...I don't know...but it's pretty gawd damn fuckin stupid.

Again, you're a retard. You simply have your computer set up
incorrectly and if you had it setup correctly you wouldn't even have a
need to be altering the default text on so many sites. Your problem
is a short between the keyboard and your chair, nothing more than
that.

>> No, in your case it's mostly about stupidity.

>LOL. I see you're an expert on the subject. ;)

Well there are certainly no shortage of subjects to study, just look
at yourself for a perfect example.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> ...HTML...not so much. With HTML yer fucked either way, Flash
> provides the ONLY viable CROSS COMPATIBLE solution for true liquid
> sites.

http://edmullen.net/temp/c1.jpg

Oooo! Yes, that scales very nicely indeed. Cross-compatible. Uh huh.

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
http://mozilla.edmullen.net
http://abington.edmullen.net
The hilarious thing about self-important self-righteous people is that
they are so easily baited.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> Pffft, don't be absurd, you can style Flash just as easily as you can
> HTML:
> http://www.backwater-productions.net/_test_platform/Forum_Te mplate/

Nice color changes. But the discussion is about the USER being able to
change TEXT sizes on Flash sites.

So, how does the USER adjust the text size on your site?

http://www.backwater-productions.net/

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
http://mozilla.edmullen.net
http://abington.edmullen.net
An American is a person who isn't afraid to criticize the President but
is always polite to traffic cops.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

In article <5haed4F3hfkaaU1@mid.individual.net>,
Bergamot wrote:

> I don't use the web as a source of entertainment, and if I
> can't read the text it's gonna be thumbs down no matter how it looks.

No matter how good it is, how it might touch a soul, how much
visual poetry there might be. How words might not be needed. Of
course! I have a model of such a brain right here, written in
BASIC and it gets all thingy about non textual inputs...

--
dorayme

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:48:20 -0400, Ed Mullen wrote:

>Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
>> Pffft, don't be absurd, you can style Flash just as easily as you can
>> HTML:
>> http://www.backwater-productions.net/_test_platform/Forum_Te mplate/
>
>Nice color changes. But the discussion is about the USER being able to
>change TEXT sizes on Flash sites.

Um, the XML is styling the color, the text you see at the bottom
there, that's being styled via CSS:
http://www.backwater-productions.net/_test_platform/Forum_Te mplate/style.css

Woah, Flash sure is teh hard, innt? *nods*

>So, how does the USER adjust the text size on your site?
>
>http://www.backwater-productions.net/

They don't on my main site, there's not really any reason to.

You have to understand the concept behind wanting to create liquid
sites and such is to COMPENSATE FOR USER STUPIDITY. The fact is there
are a lot of really dumb fuckin retards out there who don't have clue
one about their systems display settings or what display settings they
should even be using and why. It's for THOSE RETARDS that SOME
developers like myself will try and go out of our way to attempt to
find IDIOT PROOF solutions.

....problem is, you can't fix stupid. *shrugs*

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:24:41 -0700, Chaddy2222
> wrote:
>
> >Hmmm well it's not really, as you do need a plug-in to view Flash and
> >a lot of people can't use it.
>
> WRONG! You need a browser to view a website and a computer to go
> online and an Internet connection to visit a site, so really, out of
> all that, installing Flash is pretty much the EASIEST part of the
> equation and the one that requires the LEAST amount of effort. Flash
> installs itself automagically in just a few seconds on a broadband
> connection with no more than a couple clicks from the user. And what
> do you mean a lot of people can't use it? Flash works on pretty much
> ANYTHING, unless you're some idiot running some obscure hardware and
> software combination like a PowerPC running Linux...although even then
> there are work arounds to get Flash to work.
>
Ha, most linux users are nerds who would not give a rats about Flash
anyway, I reckon i'd go for a Mac before I even considered installing
Linux.

> >Did you not read what I wrote about me
> >not being able to read any of your sites content with my screen reader
> >(text to speech software). I would need to actually disable Flash to
> >read your site that way.
>
> Um, hello, the only time you would be using a screen reader is IF YOU
> WERE FUCKING BLIND! And if you were blind...why in the fuck would you
> have Flash enabled?
>
Well actually I do have a bit of vision (I would say that only a small
percentage of blind people are actually totally blind.)

> I mean maybe if you wanna try and claim you're simply illiterate...
> *rolls eyes*
>
Haha, funnally enough through reading some of my posts I do get a bit
concerned about some of my spelling at times.
Although often it's just quicker especially when doing research to
have stuff read allowed then to spend time reading it off the screen.

> Further, if it was THAT important to you, why wouldn't you simply copy
> the text portions and paste them into say Notepad?
>
I do that (or at least did that at one point with PDF's before addobie
fixxed the reader).
> Or simply disable javascript. On my Backwater site it's not actually
I offten do that as well, it's bloody amaizeing the amount of sites
that do not have any navigation once you do that though. They the
designers are to cluless to provide a simple list of links to the same
content (which would take about 2 mins useing an include file.)

> detecting the presence of Flash, it's detecting the presence of
> javascript. The reason I and many other developers do it that way is
> that it's much easier to temporarily disable javascript than it is to
> disable Flash.
>
Yeah, that sounds like a thing.

> >Admitedly the developers of the text to
> >speech packages could do more work in that area, especially with more
> >music / band websites being Flash based.
>
> And everything else being Flash based. Really, the problem isn't with
> Flash, the problem is with those third party software developers who
> are simply lazy fucking antediluvian bastards. I mean if Google can
> setup their search engine to spider all the text content in a Flash
> file...yeah, anybody can do it, there is no excuse. Of course there
> is also blame to be put on the USERS who WANT that functionality since
> it's largely up to you to contact those third party vendors and tell
> them what functionality you're looking for. If they get enough people
> asking for it, they'll develop it.
>
Very true, although they seam to think that us blind computer users
are computer iliteret gits who do not need to install new hardware or
re-format our systems.
So they give us five licence keys and once they run out expect us to
pay $2000 or near enough to that price for new software.
The anoying part about that is (they give you even lestt keys with the
newer versions, my current software has lasted me about 4 years
though. Although the price for the Jaws software has dropped a bit
which I am happy with.

> >Oh and I do agree with your ideas in that article.
>
> Yay, you read it, congratulations you're not retarded.
>
Thanks, that's reassuring!.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:42:49 -0400, Ed Mullen wrote:

>Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
>> ...HTML...not so much. With HTML yer fucked either way, Flash
>> provides the ONLY viable CROSS COMPATIBLE solution for true liquid
>> sites.
>
>http://edmullen.net/temp/c1.jpg
>
>Oooo! Yes, that scales very nicely indeed. Cross-compatible. Uh huh.

Context is a VERY hard concept for a retard like you to grasp, innt?
Free cl00, I have more than one site and that site yer lookin
at...it's not the one we're talking about. My primary site currently
has a fixed resolution when viewed in its default state...however, it
WILL display as liquid using this link:
http://www.backwater-productions.net/main.swf

However I don't have video smoothing enabled so the video portions
like the animated logo won't look as good, that's mostly done in order
to go a little easier on deficient browsers like Firefox that can't
handle anti-aliasing well on that level. If everyone was still using
IE it'd be different, but Firefox has inflicted its piss poor engine
on too many people to make use of such high end effects without
severely limiting usability for those who have been lied to and
tricked by the makers of Firefox.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
>
> you can style Flash just as easily as you can HTML:
> http://www.backwater-productions.net/_test_platform/Forum_Te mplate/

If that were true then I should be able to override your stylesheet with
my own. Without that ability it's not worth much, at least not to users.

> Flash is for big kids, not for you.

yeah, ok... if you say so.

--
Berg

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:29:20 -0500, Bergamot
wrote:

>Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
>>
>> you can style Flash just as easily as you can HTML:
>> http://www.backwater-productions.net/_test_platform/Forum_Te mplate/
>
>If that were true then I should be able to override your stylesheet with
>my own. Without that ability it's not worth much, at least not to users.

Well, go bitch at your browser maker then.

Although that form I'm developing will eventually allow end users to
alter the display and increase or decrease the text size, right now
the prototype is mostly meant just to show that it's possible to use
style sheets on Flash.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Wed, 01 Aug 2007 03:54:39
GMT Onideus Mad Hatter scribed:

>>Well, in the interests of neo-nerd:nerd harmony, I've installed Flash
>>on my copies of ie, seachimp, and opera (-was already on ff.) Will
>>admit that the 'F' sites I've hit so far haven't been very obnoxious,
>>though there's plenty of time. I found it interesting that one needs
>>to have Flash installed to view content on CBS Innertube even though
>>you still must have WMP or Real Player, too.
>>
>>Thanks for the info.
>
> Wait, you didn't have Flash before?

A while back, I actually removed it from my system (-and ie) with special
instructions from the Net. (My mother liked my brother better...)

> Tsch, tsch, tsch...you have no idea what you were missing out on.
> Here, let me show you: www.youtube.com ^_^

Yeah, that's a good site. Dunno if I would go there alot without hi-speed,
but I'm sure it has what many people want. Heck, I ever perused a coupla
vids by this "AngryLittleGirl" who, although a chick, attracted my interest
even with her clothes on.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Aug 1, 2:48 pm, Ed Mullen wrote:
> Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> > Pffft, don't be absurd, you can style Flash just as easily as you can
> > HTML:
> >http://www.backwater-productions.net/_test_platform/Forum_T emplate/
>
> Nice color changes. But the discussion is about the USER being able to
> change TEXT sizes on Flash sites.
>
> So, how does the USER adjust the text size on your site?
>
> http://www.backwater-productions.net/
>
>
You can use the Zoom in function in the Flash player itself, it works
fine on Hatters site, you just need to Zoom back out to get the nav
menu, but that's a bug with the player itself far as I know.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.awardspace.biz

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 31, 7:50 pm, "Jonathan N. Little"
wrote:
> Well that is just it, the problem with said site is the flash is
> unscalable via the browser and the only option is change my monitor
> resolution...or say "screw this" and more on to another site...
> Flash accessibility: "Access straight to another site"

I will gladly except loosing a few people that leave because I have
Flash in exchange for the ones that come to the site for the same
reason. When the numbers are tallied I win. (Mind you I work almost
exclusively on entertainment, and web based training sites, and fully
understand that Flash is not for every site)

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 31, 11:29 pm, "Jonathan N. Little"
wrote:
> Well, as apparent by your "designs", you assume wrongly that I am using
> my browser maximized. Sure, I can change my screen resolution but I
> *shouldn't* have to!

Yea, God forbid you might have to do something...

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

SpaceGirl wrote:
> Toby A Inkster wrote:
>
>> The SWF specs have been published, but:
>>
>> 1. You need to agree to a fairly restrictive licence,
>> promising not to use them to build a competing
>> player; and
>>
>> 2. FLV is not included in the published specs.
>
> FLV can't be, as Adobe have to license the codecs it uses. They can't
> give that away for free.

True -- but it was their choice of codec that made this the case. There
are plenty of other codecs they could have used with fewer licencing
issues, such as MPEG-4 AVC or Ogg Theora.

>> The Flash Player is only available for Windows 98 and above, Mac OS X
>> and x86 versions of Linux, and because of the restrictions on the spec
>> licence, third parties can't use it to produce players for other
>> platforms -- they need to reverse engineer the format instead, making
>> it effectively no better than a closed, proprietary format.
>
> At the same time this is a good thing. It has kept the player extremely
> small and fast. OpenSource isn't all good! :)

I mentioned reverse engineering above: Gnash is a project to produce a
GPL SWF player. It's got near 100% Flash 7 support.

File sizes:

flash-plugin-7.0.63-1.i386.rpm 2 192 140 bytes
gnash-0.8.0-1.fc6.i386.rpm 1 595 251 bytes
gnash-plugin-0.8.0-1.fc6.i386.rpm 21 331 bytes
(Gnash Total) 1 616 582 bytes

Haven't compared their speeds.

Free software has a proven track record of staying smaller and faster than
proprietary software. The only exceptions I can think of are Mozilla-based
browsers, which are significantly larger and slower than Opera; and
OpenOffice.org, which is slower, but smaller than Microsoft Office.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 41 days, 12:49.]

demiblog 0.2.2 Released
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/29/demiblog-0.2.2/

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Aug 1, 1:27 am, Chaddy2222
wrote:
> Ha, most linux users are nerds who would not give a rats about Flash
> anyway

Source?

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:

> Even for just a PLAIN TEXT SITE, Flash is VASTLY superior to HTML in a
> whole variety of ways, from being able to embed fonts, to having
> proper font anti-aliasing, to having true liquid sized text as opposed
> to just liquid space stretched text.

Ummm... what about trying to:

- print pages
- save pages
- copy and paste text

HTML wins hands down.

Not sure which browser you're using, but mine (Opera for Linux)
anti-aliases HTML rather nicely.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 41 days, 13:25.]

demiblog 0.2.2 Released
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/29/demiblog-0.2.2/

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Aug 1, 12:10 am, Onideus Mad Hatter productions.net> wrote:
> Um, hello, the only time you would be using a screen reader is IF YOU
> WERE FUCKING BLIND! And if you were blind...why in the fuck would you
> have Flash enabled?

Flash and (modern) screen readers are not mutually exclusive if the
developer knows know what they are doing. (albeit animation is pretty
useless)

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Aug 1, 4:38 am, Neredbojias wrote:
> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:06:07
> GMT SpaceGirl scribed:
>
> >> Uh huh, -or $799. I browsed the Adobe site, looking at both Flash
> >> and Flex (? -I think that's the name). There was an 11 minute demo
> >> of a page made with Flex, -the demo being a representation of the
> >> programming involved. 'Bout all I can say is:
>
> >> YEAH, RIGHT!
>
> >> I'd be dead before I learned all that shit! Not all of us are
> >> Microsoftish Miracle Boys, and while I may sometimes bite off more
> >> than I can chew, I've never tried to eat a brontosaurus, either.
> >> Forget it.
>
> > Chewy, but nice :)
>
> Hell, I'd rather eat a shark (-Blinky excepted.)

Having eaten shark (shark fins, in Tokyo), I'd rather eat shark too :)
It's tasty!

> Seriously, it looks prett-yy complicated. I'm just a down-on-the-farm good
> ol' country boy who's currently working on the next "Saucy Aussie" stamp
> so, ergo, learning a whole plethora of new commands, procedures, and
> techniques doesn't particularly appeal to me or my thinking machine at the
> moment. Besides, seeing Duende around reminds me of what can happen when
> you take too deep a plunge, so to speak.

I'm a designer first, programmer second. The only reason I learned
*any* programming was that the visual things I wanted to do couldn't
be done any other way. I don't regret learning to program, but I don't
really like doing it much. It is very satisfying though when a
particular design that I did a lot of coding on is a success. I don't
thing design should be a static thing when it is online, and the only
way to achieve this is to interact with the user. It's very hard to do
this without creating some sort of logic.

On the other hand, if there was some other way of doing it, I'd quite
happily never program again!

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 31, 2:39 pm, "Chris F.A. Johnson" wrote:
> I cannot read the text on that site. That's good??

It is neither good nor bad. People like, dislike, visit, leave, sites
for different reasons. It is a complete waste of time to think you
can please everyone with flash as much as it is eaually a waste of
time thinking you can please everyone with straight HTML. You might
leave the site because you can not read the text. Someone else may
bookmarks the site because they like the Flash. You win some you lose
some. Each site is different.

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Aug 1, 4:51 am, Bergamot wrote:
> SpaceGirl wrote:
> > Bergamot wrote:
>
> >> I don't follow. What's so "new" about the above site other than it's
> >> Flash (not that I'd call Flash "new") instead of HTML? I can't read the
> >> text so I don't really know what they're selling, but at first glance it
> >> doesn't seem so different from any other stock photo or other gallery
> >> type site.
>
> > It's just a galley of Flash sites. I wasn't holding it up as an example
> > of Flash itself, although it is!
>
> Ah, now I see. We're supposed to investigate the sites it points to, not
> the site itself. You probably should have mentioned that. I will look at

Yes please :)

> a few later, but frankly I don't expect to find much there that
> interests me. I don't use the web as a source of entertainment, and if I
> can't read the text it's gonna be thumbs down no matter how it looks.

Oh I agree (for you). Some of these things are audience specific, so,
like with ANY design, you need to put yourself in the shoes of the
audience the sites are aimed for and view with an open mind. Just
because YOU cannot read the site doesn't make it Bad necessarily. I
bet you can't read a site that is written in Japanese. I can. Does
that make the site bad?

> >> So what am I missing? I really want to know.
>
> > Sense of adventure, passion :)
>
> My sense of adventure is mostly reserved for the great outdoors. 8-)
> "Passion" isn't a word I associate with web stuff much, except as it
> relates to usability and accessibility. ;)

How can you be passionate about those things, and not good design?
Accessibility and Usability are nothing without Design. It all comes
under "user experience"; what experience do you want your user to have
while they use your site?

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 31, 3:16 pm, Bergamot wrote:
> > The example I always like to use when people say "Flash is always
> > abused" is this:
> >www.thefwa.com
> I'm sorry, but the microscopic type size and low contrast makes it
> illegible. Can't read it, can't use it.

I have to agree. The page developer could have made some better
choices. But I am not going to lose any sleep over it. I will just
move on to a different site I can use.

> It's all subjective.

Absolutly

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 31, 3:29 pm, SpaceGirl wrote:
> > I'm sorry, but the microscopic type size and low contrast makes it
> > illegible. Can't read it, can't use it.
> > If it were HTML I could get around those issues. Not so with Flash. :(
> >> Many, many great Flash sites!
> > It's all subjective.
> Yes, of course. Everything is. But yout one suggests you've written the
> whole thing off.
> This what I hate. To many short sighted people who point blank refuse to
> open their eyes to anything new.

Praise be to Space Girl! You are absolutely correct!

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Jul 31, 1:38 pm, Neredbojias wrote:
> There was an 11 minute demo of a page made
> with Flex, -the demo being a representation of the programming involved.
> 'Bout all I can say is:
> YEAH, RIGHT!
> I'd be dead before I learned all that shit!

LOL!!!!

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Aug 1, 10:41 am, Toby A Inkster
wrote:
> SpaceGirl wrote:
> > Toby A Inkster wrote:
>
> >> The SWF specs have been published, but:
>
> >> 1. You need to agree to a fairly restrictive licence,
> >> promising not to use them to build a competing
> >> player; and
>
> >> 2. FLV is not included in the published specs.
>
> > FLV can't be, as Adobe have to license the codecs it uses. They can't
> > give that away for free.
>
> True -- but it was their choice of codec that made this the case. There
> are plenty of other codecs they could have used with fewer licencing
> issues, such as MPEG-4 AVC or Ogg Theora.
>
> >> The Flash Player is only available for Windows 98 and above, Mac OS X
> >> and x86 versions of Linux, and because of the restrictions on the spec
> >> licence, third parties can't use it to produce players for other
> >> platforms -- they need to reverse engineer the format instead, making
> >> it effectively no better than a closed, proprietary format.
>
> > At the same time this is a good thing. It has kept the player extremely
> > small and fast. OpenSource isn't all good! :)
>
> I mentioned reverse engineering above: Gnash is a project to produce a
> GPL SWF player. It's got near 100% Flash 7 support.
>
> File sizes:
>
> flash-plugin-7.0.63-1.i386.rpm 2 192 140 bytes
> gnash-0.8.0-1.fc6.i386.rpm 1 595 251 bytes
> gnash-plugin-0.8.0-1.fc6.i386.rpm 21 331 bytes
> (Gnash Total) 1 616 582 bytes

FlashPlayer 9 (which includes AVM2.0 and AS3.0) is 2,447,560 bytes.
Given Flash 9 is significantly different than earlier versions of
Flash, and frankly Flash 7 support is kind of meaningless these days.

> Haven't compared their speeds.

Me either, but newer (beta) builds of Flash 9 have hardware
acceleration now, so I suspect the OS versions are very slow by
comparison?

> Free software has a proven track record of staying smaller and faster than
> proprietary software. The only exceptions I can think of are Mozilla-based

Like... what? Apache? Much slower than IIS across the board? Java? One
of the slowest (but most flexible) language on the market :D

> browsers, which are significantly larger and slower than Opera; and
> OpenOffice.org, which is slower, but smaller than Microsoft Office.

Yeah... but don't think it really matters with those programs. Players
and Plugins need to be small to encourage users to download them. If
they have to download 60Mb just to playback a video, the chances are
they won't :)

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 10:41:54 +0100, Toby A Inkster
wrote:

>True -- but it was their choice of codec that made this the case. There
>are plenty of other codecs they could have used with fewer licencing
>issues, such as MPEG-4 AVC or Ogg Theora.

Um, those other codecs are shit by comparison...I mean you want to
replace On2 VP6 with On2 VP3...how the fuck does THAT make any sense?

And what the hell licensing issues are you talking about? I mean, you
buy Sorenson Squeeze for $250 and you get to encode 50 files a day or
1,500 files a month. If you need more than that (which would be more
than a bit odd if you did), then you simply buy Squeeze for Flash
Unlimited instead for $1,238 per system per year.

....how much simpler does it get?

....well, unless you're a retard I guess, then it might be kind of
complicated. *shrugs*

>I mentioned reverse engineering above: Gnash is a project to produce a
>GPL SWF player. It's got near 100% Flash 7 support.
>
>File sizes:
>
> flash-plugin-7.0.63-1.i386.rpm 2 192 140 bytes
> gnash-0.8.0-1.fc6.i386.rpm 1 595 251 bytes
> gnash-plugin-0.8.0-1.fc6.i386.rpm 21 331 bytes
> (Gnash Total) 1 616 582 bytes
>
>Haven't compared their speeds.
>
>Free software has a proven track record of staying smaller and faster than
>proprietary software. The only exceptions I can think of are Mozilla-based
>browsers, which are significantly larger and slower than Opera; and
>OpenOffice.org, which is slower, but smaller than Microsoft Office.

Um, sorry kiddo, but OpenOffice is WAY more bloated than MS Office:
http://www.backwater-productions.net/_images/_Usenet/Bloated _Open_Office.png

....unless you're talking about overall program size on the HD...but
you couldn't be talking about that, I mean...that'd just be fuckin
retarded to be worried about THAT size considering how cheap 500 GIG
HDs are.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 02:57:35 -0700, SpaceGirl
wrote:

>On Aug 1, 4:51 am, Bergamot wrote:
>> SpaceGirl wrote:
>> > Bergamot wrote:
>>
>> >> I don't follow. What's so "new" about the above site other than it's
>> >> Flash (not that I'd call Flash "new") instead of HTML? I can't read the
>> >> text so I don't really know what they're selling, but at first glance it
>> >> doesn't seem so different from any other stock photo or other gallery
>> >> type site.
>>
>> > It's just a galley of Flash sites. I wasn't holding it up as an example
>> > of Flash itself, although it is!
>>
>> Ah, now I see. We're supposed to investigate the sites it points to, not
>> the site itself. You probably should have mentioned that. I will look at
>
>Yes please :)
>
>> a few later, but frankly I don't expect to find much there that
>> interests me. I don't use the web as a source of entertainment, and if I
>> can't read the text it's gonna be thumbs down no matter how it looks.
>
>Oh I agree (for you). Some of these things are audience specific, so,
>like with ANY design, you need to put yourself in the shoes of the
>audience the sites are aimed for and view with an open mind. Just
>because YOU cannot read the site doesn't make it Bad necessarily. I
>bet you can't read a site that is written in Japanese. I can. Does
>that make the site bad?
>
>> >> So what am I missing? I really want to know.
>>
>> > Sense of adventure, passion :)
>>
>> My sense of adventure is mostly reserved for the great outdoors. 8-)
>> "Passion" isn't a word I associate with web stuff much, except as it
>> relates to usability and accessibility. ;)
>
>How can you be passionate about those things, and not good design?
>Accessibility and Usability are nothing without Design. It all comes
>under "user experience"; what experience do you want your user to have
>while they use your site?

To be bored out of their fuckin skull apparently.

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )

Re: Hey Spacey, Have You Tried This?

On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 10:49:17 +0100, Toby A Inkster
wrote:

>> Even for just a PLAIN TEXT SITE, Flash is VASTLY superior to HTML in a
>> whole variety of ways, from being able to embed fonts, to having
>> proper font anti-aliasing, to having true liquid sized text as opposed
>> to just liquid space stretched text.

>Ummm... what about trying to:
>
> - print pages
> - save pages
> - copy and paste text
>
>HTML wins hands down.

WRONG!

You can print pages just fine in Flash, you can save pages and any
other content embedded in the Flash file just fine and you can copy
and paste text in Flash as well...provided that the developer LETS
YOU.

As I've said before, Flash isn't a training panty like HTML, if you
want such functionality often times YOU have to code it in. Flash is
so fuckin awesome you can even create your own custom context menus.

The bottom line is...anything you can do with HTML...I can do better
with Flash.

>Not sure which browser you're using, but mine (Opera for Linux)
>anti-aliases HTML rather nicely.

Um, no, it doesn't:

: PNG Browser Resizing
: http://www.backwater-productions.net/_test_platform/Shapes/L iquid%20Sites%2002%20-%20PNG.html

: JPEG Browser Resizing
: http://www.backwater-productions.net/_test_platform/Shapes/L iquid%20Sites%20-%20JPEG.html

: GIF Browser Resizing
:http://www.backwater-productions.net/_test_platform/Shapes/ Liquid%20Sites%20-%20GIF.html

: Graphic Editor Resizing (what you get with Flash)
: http://www.backwater-productions.net/_test_platform/Shapes/L iquid%20Sites%20-%20Graphic%20Editor%20Resizing.html

I've got some text samples too somewhere, I'll try and get those up
sometime tomorrow when I can. Maybe the problem is that you simply
don't comprehend WHAT anti-aliasing means. *nods*

--

Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm ¹ x ¹
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.backwater-productions.net/hatter-blog


Hatter Quotes
-------------
"You're only one of the best if you're striving to become one of the
best."

"I didn't make reality, Sunshine, I just verbally bitch slapped you
with it."

"I'm not a professional, I'm an artist."

"Your Usenet blinders are my best friend."

"Usenet Filters - Learn to shut yourself the fuck up!"

"Drugs killed Jesus you know...oh wait, no, that was the Jews, my
bad."

"There are clingy things in the grass...burrs 'n such...mmmm..."

"The more I learn the more I'm killing my idols."

"Is it wrong to incur and then use the hate ridden, vengeful stupidity
of complete strangers in random Usenet froups to further my art?"

"Freedom is only a concept, like race it's merely a social construct
that doesn't really exist outside of your ability to convince others
of its relevancy."

"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
creamin yer panties before it's time to pop the champagne proper."

"Reality is directly proportionate to how creative you are."

"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."

"Quible, quible said the Hare. Quite a lot of quibling...everywhere.
So the Hare took a long stare and decided at best, to leave the rest,
to their merry little mess."

"There's a difference between 'bad' and 'so earth shatteringly
horrible it makes the angels scream in terror as they violently rip
their heads off, their blood spraying into the faces of a thousand
sweet innocent horrified children, who will forever have the terrible
images burned into their tiny little minds'."

"How sad that you're such a poor judge of style that you can't even
properly gauge the artistic worth of your own efforts."

"Those who record history are those who control history."

"I am the living embodiment of hell itself in all its tormentive rage,
endless suffering, unfathomable pain and unending horror...but you
don't get sent to me...I come for you."

"Ideally in a fight I'd want a BGM-109A with a W80 250 kiloton
tactical thermonuclear fusion based war head."

"Tell me, would you describe yourself more as a process or a
function?"

"Apparently this group has got the market cornered on stupid.
Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
indicates an increase in Webtv users."

"Is my .sig delimiter broken? Really? You're sure? Awww,
gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )