Going beyond HTML / CSS?

I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every high
school kid is capable of that these days.

What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next level?

Someone will likely respond "depends on what you want to do." I've made a
few bucks here and there designing sites for friends but I don't really want
to pursue this as a full-time thing. I'm more of a hobbyist hoping to make a
few bucks while enjoying myself.

Based on that qualifier, what would "pay" for itself to make it worth my
while adding to my repertoire. Server-side stuff like Perl or PHP? Flash?
Javascript? Since I am just a hobbyist I also don't want to spend a lot of
time on this so "ease of learnability" is a factor.

One friend would like to have a guest book-type feature on his site. Later
he also wants to allow credit card transactions. That would be a good start
I guess.

Feedback? Suggestions?

M

Re: Going beyond HTML / CSS?

"M" wrote in message
news:q9Jri.20106$rX4.19867@pd7urf2no...
> I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every high
> school kid is capable of that these days.
>
> What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next level?
>
> Someone will likely respond "depends on what you want to do." I've made a
> few bucks here and there designing sites for friends but I don't really
> want to pursue this as a full-time thing. I'm more of a hobbyist hoping to
> make a few bucks while enjoying myself.
>
> Based on that qualifier, what would "pay" for itself to make it worth my
> while adding to my repertoire. Server-side stuff like Perl or PHP? Flash?
> Javascript? Since I am just a hobbyist I also don't want to spend a lot of
> time on this so "ease of learnability" is a factor.
>
> One friend would like to have a guest book-type feature on his site. Later
> he also wants to allow credit card transactions. That would be a good
> start I guess.
>
> Feedback? Suggestions?
>

Both the guestbook and the credit card thing lend themselves to PHP/MySQL.
They're reasonably easy to learn and free.

+mrcakey

Re: Going beyond HTML / CSS?

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:09:58
GMT M scribed:

> I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every
> high school kid is capable of that these days.
>
> What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next
> level?
>
> Someone will likely respond "depends on what you want to do." I've
> made a few bucks here and there designing sites for friends but I
> don't really want to pursue this as a full-time thing. I'm more of a
> hobbyist hoping to make a few bucks while enjoying myself.
>
> Based on that qualifier, what would "pay" for itself to make it worth
> my while adding to my repertoire. Server-side stuff like Perl or PHP?
> Flash? Javascript? Since I am just a hobbyist I also don't want to
> spend a lot of time on this so "ease of learnability" is a factor.
>
> One friend would like to have a guest book-type feature on his site.
> Later he also wants to allow credit card transactions. That would be a
> good start I guess.
>
> Feedback? Suggestions?

I'd say learn php and maybe a little mysql (database). Making a _secure_
cc transaction thingy might be a little ambitious for a hobbyist, though.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Going beyond HTML / CSS?

In article ,
nowhereman@twilightzone.net says...
> I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every high
> school kid is capable of that these days.
>
> What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next level?
>
> Someone will likely respond "depends on what you want to do." I've made a
> few bucks here and there designing sites for friends but I don't really want
> to pursue this as a full-time thing. I'm more of a hobbyist hoping to make a
> few bucks while enjoying myself.
>
> Based on that qualifier, what would "pay" for itself to make it worth my
> while adding to my repertoire. Server-side stuff like Perl or PHP? Flash?
> Javascript? Since I am just a hobbyist I also don't want to spend a lot of
> time on this so "ease of learnability" is a factor.
>
> One friend would like to have a guest book-type feature on his site. Later
> he also wants to allow credit card transactions. That would be a good start
> I guess.
>
> Feedback? Suggestions?
>
> M
>

Don't worry about Flash, but you can't go wrong by learning some
javascript, PHP and mysql.

Re: Going beyond HTML / CSS?

On Jul 31, 1:00 pm, SAZ wrote:
> In article ,
> nowhere...@twilightzone.net says...
>
>
>
> > I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every high
> > school kid is capable of that these days.
>
> > What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next level?
>
> > Someone will likely respond "depends on what you want to do." I've made a
> > few bucks here and there designing sites for friends but I don't really want
> > to pursue this as a full-time thing. I'm more of a hobbyist hoping to make a
> > few bucks while enjoying myself.
>
> > Based on that qualifier, what would "pay" for itself to make it worth my
> > while adding to my repertoire. Server-side stuff like Perl or PHP? Flash?
> > Javascript? Since I am just a hobbyist I also don't want to spend a lot of
> > time on this so "ease of learnability" is a factor.
>
> > One friend would like to have a guest book-type feature on his site. Later
> > he also wants to allow credit card transactions. That would be a good start
> > I guess.
>
> > Feedback? Suggestions?
>
> > M
>
> Don't worry about Flash, but you can't go wrong by learning some
> javascript, PHP and mysql.

Also, you may want to review some open source CMS systems such as
joomla or drupal. They come with existing components that may be of
interest to you.

Re: Going beyond HTML / CSS?

"M" wrote:

>I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every high
>school kid is capable of that these days.
>
>What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next level?
>
>Someone will likely respond "depends on what you want to do." I've made a
>few bucks here and there designing sites for friends but I don't really want
>to pursue this as a full-time thing. I'm more of a hobbyist hoping to make a
>few bucks while enjoying myself.
>
>Based on that qualifier, what would "pay" for itself to make it worth my
>while adding to my repertoire. Server-side stuff like Perl or PHP? Flash?
>Javascript? Since I am just a hobbyist I also don't want to spend a lot of
>time on this so "ease of learnability" is a factor.
>
>One friend would like to have a guest book-type feature on his site. Later
>he also wants to allow credit card transactions. That would be a good start
>I guess.
>
>Feedback? Suggestions?
Are you a "computer programmer" or a "graphic artist" at heart. The
web needs both but the I think your next level depends on how you see
yourself.

If you lean to programming then there are some tools that make the
first steps much easier. See
.

Re: Going beyond HTML / CSS?

On 31 Jul, 17:09, "M" wrote:
> I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every high
> school kid is capable of that these days.

Likewise PHP

> What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next level?

Why? From interest, or because you want a job doing it?

PHP is simple and useful. It's also a ghastly language and will teach
you evil coding habits that make you almost unusable for any real
software development afterwards!

More to the point, every teenager and their dog is writing (bad) PHP
these days and there are no good jobs in it. You can certainly get
such a job, but it's a minimum wage sort of role and you're thrown
into a vast pit of undistinguished crappy-coders. There's no reward to
being any better than this, you just won't get recognised for it.

If you _are_ a good PHP coder who knows enough to do good work with
it, then you're in a tiny minority. You're also likely to have to go
and work as your own bespoke complete-service web shop (not even
contract or freelance), because it's the only way to distinguish
yourself from the muppets.


If you can find hosting for it (not impossible, but harder than PHP),
Python or even Ruby are far nicer languages than PHP. If you control
the server yourself (maybe you host over home broadband) then this is
easy. They (especially Python) also teach far better coding style.

Perl is obsolete. Use Python instead.

Re: Going beyond HTML / CSS?

In article <1185969567.699509.301980@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
Andy Dingley wrote:

> On 31 Jul, 17:09, "M" wrote:
> > I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every high
> > school kid is capable of that these days.
>
> Likewise PHP
>
> > What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next level?
>
> Why? From interest, or because you want a job doing it?
>
> PHP is simple and useful. It's also a ghastly language and will teach
> you evil coding habits that make you almost unusable for any real
> software development afterwards!

Look, I can write FORTRAN in any language :-)

More seriously, why do you have that view?

[snip]

> If you can find hosting for it (not impossible, but harder than PHP),
> Python or even Ruby are far nicer languages than PHP. If you control
> the server yourself (maybe you host over home broadband) then this is
> easy. They (especially Python) also teach far better coding style.
>
> Perl is obsolete. Use Python instead.

What specifically about those languages would you say enforces better
coding style (specially as "better" is somewhat subjective)? I would
agree that PERL might, as it encourages unreadable regexps.

Re: Going beyond HTML / CSS?

In article <1185969567.699509.301980@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
dingbat@codesmiths.com says...
> On 31 Jul, 17:09, "M" wrote:

> PHP is simple and useful. It's also a ghastly language and will teach
> you evil coding habits that make you almost unusable for any real
> software development afterwards!
>
> More to the point, every teenager and their dog is writing (bad) PHP
> these days and there are no good jobs in it. You can certainly get
> such a job, but it's a minimum wage sort of role and you're thrown
> into a vast pit of undistinguished crappy-coders. There's no reward to
> being any better than this, you just won't get recognised for it.
>
> If you _are_ a good PHP coder who knows enough to do good work with
> it, then you're in a tiny minority. You're also likely to have to go
> and work as your own bespoke complete-service web shop (not even
> contract or freelance), because it's the only way to distinguish
> yourself from the muppets.
>

What? PHP is a minimum wage job? A halfway decent PHP coder can
command $40/hour or more as a freelancer. I love PHP jobs. They are
typically 20 - 30 hour projects and I get $60/hour with no problem.

Re: Going beyond HTML / CSS?

On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:03:36 -0500, SAZ wrote:

>> More to the point, every teenager and their dog is writing (bad) PHP
>> these days and there are no good jobs in it. You can certainly get
>> such a job, but it's a minimum wage sort of role and you're thrown
>> into a vast pit of undistinguished crappy-coders.

>What? PHP is a minimum wage job? A halfway decent PHP coder can
>command $40/hour or more as a freelancer. I love PHP jobs. They are
>typically 20 - 30 hour projects and I get $60/hour with no problem.

If you're happy with $40/hour, then good luck to you.


How much does simple low-end HTML from Dreamweaver pay locally?

How much does halfway competent Java pay?

Of these two figures, which one is the PHP rate closer to?


I'm not disputing the existence of good PHP jobs, just that they're
rare. The majority of the roles (certainly in the UK) regard PHP as
being at the bottom of the skills hierarchy, not the top. Most PHP
coders _do_ only have minimal skills: it's the sort of easy-access
platform which is accessible to people who don't need or want to take
things any further than that. However that does foster an image
(incorrecltly) that PHP can _only_ deserve low-end rates. It's the old
problem in IT recruitment: matching buzzwords is easy, judging personal
skills is hard.

Re: Going beyond HTML / CSS?

In article ,
dingbat@codesmiths.com says...
> On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:03:36 -0500, SAZ wrote:
>
> >> More to the point, every teenager and their dog is writing (bad) PHP
> >> these days and there are no good jobs in it. You can certainly get
> >> such a job, but it's a minimum wage sort of role and you're thrown
> >> into a vast pit of undistinguished crappy-coders.
>
> >What? PHP is a minimum wage job? A halfway decent PHP coder can
> >command $40/hour or more as a freelancer. I love PHP jobs. They are
> >typically 20 - 30 hour projects and I get $60/hour with no problem.
>
> If you're happy with $40/hour, then good luck to you.
>
>
> How much does simple low-end HTML from Dreamweaver pay locally?
>
> How much does halfway competent Java pay?
>
> Of these two figures, which one is the PHP rate closer to?
>
>
> I'm not disputing the existence of good PHP jobs, just that they're
> rare. The majority of the roles (certainly in the UK) regard PHP as
> being at the bottom of the skills hierarchy, not the top. Most PHP
> coders _do_ only have minimal skills: it's the sort of easy-access
> platform which is accessible to people who don't need or want to take
> things any further than that. However that does foster an image
> (incorrecltly) that PHP can _only_ deserve low-end rates. It's the old
> problem in IT recruitment: matching buzzwords is easy, judging personal
> skills is hard.
>
It's very different in the US. As I said, I get $60/hour for PHP.
$40/hour is at the low end, but if you keep busy $40/hour can add up to
around US $83,000 per year - not a bad salary in any country.

I live in the Chicago area, and straight HTML and Dreamweaver pays in
the $40 - 50 range. Java is around $60 - 75, so I can safely say that
PHP is right in the middle.

Re: Going beyond HTML / CSS?

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
news:d4b4b3hd6hhgh33phj08doftd7jos9luoh@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:03:36 -0500, SAZ wrote:
>
>>> More to the point, every teenager and their dog is writing (bad) PHP
>>> these days and there are no good jobs in it. You can certainly get
>>> such a job, but it's a minimum wage sort of role and you're thrown
>>> into a vast pit of undistinguished crappy-coders.
>
>>What? PHP is a minimum wage job? A halfway decent PHP coder can
>>command $40/hour or more as a freelancer. I love PHP jobs. They are
>>typically 20 - 30 hour projects and I get $60/hour with no problem.
>
> If you're happy with $40/hour, then good luck to you.
>
>
> How much does simple low-end HTML from Dreamweaver pay locally?
>
> How much does halfway competent Java pay?
>
> Of these two figures, which one is the PHP rate closer to?

The $40/hour vs. $60/hour vs. $120/hour fluctuation makes perfect sense to
me.

If I hire someone to do work by the hour at top scale, I expect them to have
top journeyman skills, which translates into "productivity". If they are
still learning the skills, achieving the same level of productivity will
demand a lower hourly rate.

The old joke, "I know what I'm worth but I won't work that cheap," may be
applicable to Web design/programming at times.

AFAIC, ColdFusion (an "almost" programming language) is by far the easiest
to learn, using HTML-like tag elements and seemingly intended for entry
level Web programmers. However, it's not free and hosting can be costly due
to Adobe's extortionistic server pricing, (close to $8,000 for the latest
Enterprise version. Perhaps they want to discourage its use so they can
discontinue it.) If I hadn't started out with CF 10 years ago, there's no
way I would jump into it today. I would learn PHP instead and if I ever have
some time to kill, I will be learning it.

El

Re: Going beyond HTML / CSS?

"El Kabong" wrote in message
news:kCqsi.6346$2c6.5182@trnddc01...
>
>
> AFAIC, ColdFusion (an "almost" programming language) is by far the easiest
> to learn, using HTML-like tag elements and seemingly intended for entry
> level Web programmers. However, it's not free and hosting can be costly
> due to Adobe's extortionistic server pricing, (close to $8,000 for the
> latest Enterprise version. Perhaps they want to discourage its use so they
> can discontinue it.) If I hadn't started out with CF 10 years ago, there's
> no way I would jump into it today. I would learn PHP instead and if I ever
> have some time to kill, I will be learning it.
>

BTW, The main reason I stay with CF is the convenience of the ColdFusion
Studio. Can anyone recommend of a comparable environment for PHP that
doesn't cost a fortune?

El

Re: Going beyond HTML / CSS?

On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:02:47 GMT, "El Kabong"
wrote:

>BTW, The main reason I stay with CF is the convenience of the ColdFusion
>Studio. Can anyone recommend of a comparable environment for PHP that
>doesn't cost a fortune?

I've never done it, but the Eclipse IDE is free, excellent, _not_ just
limited to Java (as is often claimed) and it seems to have the necessary
plugins for every language I've ever thrown at it. Whatever it needs,
someone out there has already built it.