Internal linking

Safari does not happily negotiate

http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp

iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.

I was surprised by Safari, make the window not too big and see
how it fails to show some of the links. At least on my machine it
does not with some of the links.

What is brilliant about iCab is that it gently flashes
translucent pale blue on the row wanted. Its very own built in
highlighter! Fancy the creators of iCab thinking of this (If all
browsers did this, I would not be seeking help in another thread
about this matter).

Is there something wrong with my code here that Safari is picking
up on? I can remove the underscores, I already changed from "-"
to "_" in case. How robust is it it in other browsers please.

And finally, it does not appear to me very reliable if you just
type or copy and paste a url#... into some browsers address
fields hoping to get to the item concerned. Mac IE refuses to
budge at all on this one. Safari is no good either. Opera was
good, FF good... Other browsers perform variably. I am a bit
curious about all this stuff. I thought all this was rock solid.

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

On 2007-08-22 12:15:59 +0200, dorayme said:

> Safari does not happily negotiate
>
> http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
>
> iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
> IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.
>
> I was surprised by Safari, make the window not too big and see
> how it fails to show some of the links. At least on my machine it
> does not with some of the links.
>
> What is brilliant about iCab is that it gently flashes
> translucent pale blue on the row wanted. Its very own built in
> highlighter! Fancy the creators of iCab thinking of this...

Creator. The fact that there is just one of him and he does what he
wants, without having to worry about what some executive superiors
think, explains a lot of the brilliance.
--
athel

Re: Internal linking

In article <5j2up4F3ovuhqU1@mid.individual.net>,
Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2007-08-22 12:15:59 +0200, dorayme said:
>
> > Safari does not happily negotiate
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
> >
> > iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
> > IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.
> >
> > I was surprised by Safari, make the window not too big and see
> > how it fails to show some of the links. At least on my machine it
> > does not with some of the links.
> >
> > What is brilliant about iCab is that it gently flashes
> > translucent pale blue on the row wanted. Its very own built in
> > highlighter! Fancy the creators of iCab thinking of this...
>
> Creator. The fact that there is just one of him and he does what he
> wants, without having to worry about what some executive superiors
> think, explains a lot of the brilliance.

I did have the singular originally and that sounded too knowing
so I put the plural to keep my modest image here.

Seriously, I have written on a couple of issues to Alexander
Klauss and he is always very sharp. I suspected he was the only
one but not completely sure there were not others involved in the
particular matter I referred to.

OK, now, this out of the way, you likely have a Mac. So how about
confirming or giving me your observations about Safari please n
respect of above.

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

In article
,
dorayme wrote:

> Safari does not happily negotiate
>
> http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
>
> iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
> IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.
>
> I was surprised by Safari, make the window not too big and see
> how it fails to show some of the links. At least on my machine it
> does not with some of the links.
>
> Is there something wrong with my code here that Safari is picking
> up on? I can remove the underscores, I already changed from "-"
> to "_" in case. How robust is it it in other browsers please.

Some notes...
- I see nothing wrong with your code so Safari is misbehaving here
AFAICT.
- If I move the id from a TR to a TD, Safari is suddenly able to
navigate to the correct row.
- I'm using Safari 1.3.2 under OS 10.3.9
- FF 1.5 seems to have trouble navigating to the exact row; the trouble
goes away if I add this:
table, td,th,tr { border-collapse: collapse; }
- Adding this to the bottom of the page made debugging easier because I
could see whether or not the browser scrolled to the correct row without
being limited by the end of the page

lksdfjg

Re: Internal linking

In article
,
Nikita the Spider wrote:

> In article
> ,
> dorayme wrote:
>
> > Safari does not happily negotiate
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
> >
> > iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
> > IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.
> >
> > I was surprised by Safari, make the window not too big and see
> > how it fails to show some of the links. At least on my machine it
> > does not with some of the links.
> >
> > Is there something wrong with my code here that Safari is picking
> > up on? I can remove the underscores, I already changed from "-"
> > to "_" in case. How robust is it it in other browsers please.
>
> Some notes...
> - I see nothing wrong with your code so Safari is misbehaving here
> AFAICT.
> - If I move the id from a TR to a TD, Safari is suddenly able to
> navigate to the correct row.
> - I'm using Safari 1.3.2 under OS 10.3.9
> - FF 1.5 seems to have trouble navigating to the exact row; the trouble
> goes away if I add this:
> table, td,th,tr { border-collapse: collapse; }
> - Adding this to the bottom of the page made debugging easier because I
> could see whether or not the browser scrolled to the correct row without
> being limited by the end of the page
>

lksdfjg

Re: Internal linking

In article
,
dorayme wrote:

> In article
> ,
> Nikita the Spider wrote:
>
> > - FF 1.5 seems to have trouble navigating to the exact row; the trouble
> > goes away if I add this:
> > table, td,th,tr { border-collapse: collapse; }

> Thanks so much for this info. I have FF 2 and it seemed fine in
> that, I did not suspect about earlier builds.

Ooops, I retract my statement. I see I was just getting confused by the
fact that the page isn't very tall, so except for the top 2 or 3 ids, FF
can't scroll the page far enough to reach the other ids. (On my laptop,
anyway.) Making my font size huge makes the page taller and shows me
that FF 1.5 does indeed scroll to the correct point in the page. My
mistake.


> When you moved the id to td, I assume it was fine for all the
> other browsers too.

I only tested it in Safari. Testing it in the other browsers is your
job. =)

> There seems to be a bit of an instability in all of this, no?
> Souns like it is a complicated business for a browser to find a
> unique id. Wonder if all this works better without a table at
> all to confuse with rows and borders? Also if the older fashioned
> name="" instead of or in addition to the id="" might help? Need
> to get this business reasonably right.

Try it! I don't see any reason why Safari should fail to respect an id
on a TR. Perhaps there's a good reason backed up by a spec, perhaps it's
a bug.

> There is another little issue, an important one for me, don't
> know if you know stuff about this, when you open a browser,
> fresh, and you type or paste or insert a bookmark with the base
> address with #alpha_numeric, some browsers are happy and go to
> the right place immediately while others do not (I know Mac IE
> does not, it just ignores the appended bit but still gets the
> page. And behaves itself in negotiating the internal links!) not
> that this is important).

You say, "some browsers are happy..." Care to narrow down the
definition of "some browsers"? That seems important. And I don't think
anyone will complain about you not supporting IE/Mac, unless you have an
unusual client base.


> [btw. A very simple rock steady alternative for the job this is
> destined for would have been, instead of a table of 100 rows, 100
> simple html pages, each with the info that was in each row (and
> perhaps a php included index to all the pages on each page! In
> fact, the job would have been finished by me already. The things
> we do for a bit of elegance! Perhaps I will persist a while
> longer though. At least it is instructive and somewhat
> interesting.]

Elegance is its own reward.

--
Philip
http://NikitaTheSpider.com/
Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more

Re: Internal linking

In article
,
Nikita the Spider wrote:

> In article
> ,
> dorayme wrote:
>
> > In article
> > ,
> > Nikita the Spider wrote:
>
> > When you moved the id to td, I assume it was fine for all the
> > other browsers too.
>
> I only tested it in Safari. Testing it in the other browsers is your
> job. =)
>

Damn, you saw through me!

> > There seems to be a bit of an instability in all of this, no?
> > Sounds like it is a complicated business for a browser to find a
> > unique id. Wonder if all this works better without a table at
> > all to confuse with rows and borders? Also if the older fashioned
> > name="" instead of or in addition to the id="" might help? Need
> > to get this business reasonably right.
>
> Try it! I don't see any reason why Safari should fail to respect an id
> on a TR. Perhaps there's a good reason backed up by a spec, perhaps it's
> a bug.

I will. But I can confirm that Safari is happy to find the td
with the id and so my other browsers are as happy. Win IE 6 seems
happy too. Thanks for this Spider.

> > There is another little issue, an important one for me, don't
> > know if you know stuff about this, when you open a browser,
> > fresh, and you type or paste or insert a bookmark with the base
> > address with #alpha_numeric, some browsers are happy and go to
> > the right place immediately while others do not (I know Mac IE
> > does not, it just ignores the appended bit but still gets the
> > page. And behaves itself in negotiating the internal links!) not
> > that this is important).
>
> You say, "some browsers are happy..." Care to narrow down the
> definition of "some browsers"? That seems important. And I don't think
> anyone will complain about you not supporting IE/Mac, unless you have an
> unusual client base.
>

Well, Safari was not happy but that was perhaps because of the
row issue. Opera was happy, iCab was, FF was. I better wait till
I say anything further.

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:15:59
GMT dorayme scribed:

> Safari does not happily negotiate
>
> http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
>
> iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
> IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.
>
> I was surprised by Safari, make the window not too big and see
> how it fails to show some of the links. At least on my machine it
> does not with some of the links.
>
> What is brilliant about iCab is that it gently flashes
> translucent pale blue on the row wanted. Its very own built in
> highlighter! Fancy the creators of iCab thinking of this (If all
> browsers did this, I would not be seeking help in another thread
> about this matter).
>
> Is there something wrong with my code here that Safari is picking
> up on? I can remove the underscores, I already changed from "-"
> to "_" in case. How robust is it it in other browsers please.
>
> And finally, it does not appear to me very reliable if you just
> type or copy and paste a url#... into some browsers address
> fields hoping to get to the item concerned. Mac IE refuses to
> budge at all on this one. Safari is no good either. Opera was
> good, FF good... Other browsers perform variably. I am a bit
> curious about all this stuff. I thought all this was rock solid.

I'm confused. Are you just trying to get the row to scroll to the top
when you click on the correct upper internal link? If so, it worked for
me in ie6/ie7/ff2.0.0.6/op9.23. I didn't get no highlighting, though.
And why is your source code completely unformatted? It looks like sh**.

Btw, the real links are all dead. The least you could do is give the
testers some artwork packages for all their troubles.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Internal linking

In article
,
Neredbojias wrote:

> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:15:59
> GMT dorayme scribed:
>
> > Safari does not happily negotiate
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
> >
> > iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
> > IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.

> I'm confused. Are you just trying to get the row to scroll to the top
> when you click on the correct upper internal link?

Now that would be nice, sure. But it does not happen in all
browsers under all conditions.

> And why is your source code completely unformatted? It looks like sh**.

You are right Boji. But it looks nice on my own machine. In fact
I get to cry at its sheer beauty all the time. I have to take
salt tablets to make up.

I have asked about this before, only now and then I get this
problem and have few clues as to why?

I use BBEdit. What should I do to make it look like it is in my
editor? I have tried various things and I do not know well the
actual levers to pull. I have followed instructions about other
things to good effect on BBEdit but this matter, which you have
identified, rears its ugly head every now and then.


> Btw, the real links are all dead. The least you could do is give the
> testers some artwork packages for all their troubles.

You can send me an email and I will give you the address of the
actual site and you can see some of the stuff if you are
interested. It is not that exciting. But one must earn a
living... It is not anything you would work up a sweat about. I
know you. You have a filthy mind. My work is clean and wholesome.
You would fall asleep.

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

On 2007-08-22 22:56:47 +0200, dorayme said:

> In article <5j2up4F3ovuhqU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> On 2007-08-22 12:15:59 +0200, dorayme said:
>>
>>> Safari does not happily negotiate
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
>>>
>>> iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
>>> IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.
>>>
>>> I was surprised by Safari, make the window not too big and see
>>> how it fails to show some of the links.

[ ... ]

> OK, now, this out of the way, you likely have a Mac. So how about
> confirming or giving me your observations about Safari please n
> respect of above.

I'd be glad to do so, but your URL gives a 404 error today (both on
Safari and on iCab) though it worked yesterday. Have you moved the test
page?

--
athel

Re: Internal linking

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:07:01 GMT
dorayme scribed:

>> > http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
>> >
>> > iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
>> > IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.
>
>> I'm confused. Are you just trying to get the row to scroll to the top
>> when you click on the correct upper internal link?
>
> Now that would be nice, sure. But it does not happen in all
> browsers under all conditions.

No, but I think it's the browsers' faults and not the markupers'. I don't
know all the particulars, but (for instance) you may find it works in Opera
initially but if you click a callback link, it will then ignore the hash on
return. Like most things related to html, this is buggy.

>> And why is your source code completely unformatted? It looks like sh**.
>
> You are right Boji. But it looks nice on my own machine. In fact
> I get to cry at its sheer beauty all the time. I have to take
> salt tablets to make up.
>
> I have asked about this before, only now and then I get this
> problem and have few clues as to why?
>
> I use BBEdit. What should I do to make it look like it is in my
> editor? I have tried various things and I do not know well the
> actual levers to pull. I have followed instructions about other
> things to good effect on BBEdit but this matter, which you have
> identified, rears its ugly head every now and then.

Generally speaking, the format of text in text editors, -specifically the
line formatting-, is done with \r and \n instead of
. BBEdit may read
the "html" instead of the "text" in a special manner, therefore not needing
the normal LFCRs. It might have some kind of option regarding this,
although I don't know because I'm not psychic. One would think so, though.
But \r\n for feeding each line is what is missing. (Or...it is using \r
without \n perhaps in typically weird-mac fashion.)

>> Btw, the real links are all dead. The least you could do is give the
>> testers some artwork packages for all their troubles.
>
> You can send me an email and I will give you the address of the
> actual site and you can see some of the stuff if you are
> interested. It is not that exciting. But one must earn a
> living... It is not anything you would work up a sweat about. I
> know you. You have a filthy mind. My work is clean and wholesome.
> You would fall asleep.

Thanks, but unless it's a gong-and-donkey show or something like
that, you're probably right. When you've seen it all, you've seen it all.

Hasta

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Internal linking

In article
,
dorayme wrote:

> In article
> ,
> Neredbojias wrote:
>
> > Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:15:59
> > GMT dorayme scribed:
> >
> > > Safari does not happily negotiate
> > >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
> > >
> > > iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
> > > IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.
>
> > I'm confused. Are you just trying to get the row to scroll to the top
> > when you click on the correct upper internal link?
>
> Now that would be nice, sure. But it does not happen in all
> browsers under all conditions.
>
> > And why is your source code completely unformatted? It looks like sh**.
>
> You are right Boji. But it looks nice on my own machine. In fact
> I get to cry at its sheer beauty all the time. I have to take
> salt tablets to make up.
>
> I have asked about this before, only now and then I get this
> problem and have few clues as to why?
>
> I use BBEdit. What should I do to make it look like it is in my
> editor? I have tried various things and I do not know well the
> actual levers to pull. I have followed instructions about other
> things to good effect on BBEdit but this matter, which you have
> identified, rears its ugly head every now and then.

FYI, I pasted your source code into BBEdit and there were no line
endings present that I could see. If you put the file online again I
could inspect it to see if there are line endings that are not
translated or if (as I suspect) there are no line endings in the file.
Something is probably stripping them as they get uploaded.

--
Philip
http://NikitaTheSpider.com/
Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more

Re: Internal linking

In article <5j56teF3sd08cU1@mid.individual.net>,
Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2007-08-22 22:56:47 +0200, dorayme said:
>
> > In article <5j2up4F3ovuhqU1@mid.individual.net>,
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >
> >> On 2007-08-22 12:15:59 +0200, dorayme
> >> said:
> >>
> >>> Safari does not happily negotiate
> >>>
> >>> http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
> >>>
> >>> iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
> >>> IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.
> >>>
> >>> I was surprised by Safari, make the window not too big and see
> >>> how it fails to show some of the links.
>
> [ ... ]
>
> > OK, now, this out of the way, you likely have a Mac. So how about
> > confirming or giving me your observations about Safari please n
> > respect of above.
>
> I'd be glad to do so, but your URL gives a 404 error today (both on
> Safari and on iCab) though it worked yesterday. Have you moved the test
> page?

After it was pointed out to me in quite unparliamentary language
that the source code formatting was not the best, I took it down,
stormed off and got blind drunk. I am out on bail now and will
see if I can see what the problem is. (It has been confirmed by a
spider and me already that Safari likes ids in tds rather than
trs if you read the thread. But thanks Athel.

Talk to me about formatting instead, I am desperately at sea
about how to set my text editor and/or my Cyberduck ftp program
and/or how much blame to apportion my server host. What are the
general causes of something looking mighty fine on the screen in
a text editor only to see later in the source code of some (I
emphasise some) of my website pages, no gaps between lines that
were there before, various bits bunched together and so on and so
forth. Perhaps my editor is too good and complicated and I am
lost in the variables of the enormous list of preferences.

I will put up a few versions and state on the pages what the
crucial settings are that I would assume at least mildly relevant
and together we will knock this thing over.

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

In article
,
Neredbojias wrote:
>
>... I think it's the browsers' faults and not the markupers'. I
don't ...Like most things related to html, this is buggy.
>
I have come to accept these things. I believe in Fate. But I like
to play God and try to steer it a bit...

> >> And why is your source code completely unformatted? It looks like sh**.
> >
> > You are right Boji. But it looks nice on my own machine. In fact
> > I get to cry at its sheer beauty all the time. I have to take
> > salt tablets to make up.
> >
> > I have asked about this before, only now and then I get this
> > problem and have few clues as to why?

> Generally speaking, the format of text in text editors, -specifically the
> line formatting-, is done with \r and \n instead of
. BBEdit may read
> the "html" instead of the "text" in a special manner, therefore not needing
> the normal LFCRs. It might have some kind of option regarding this,
> although I don't know because I'm not psychic. One would think so, though.
> But \r\n for feeding each line is what is missing. (Or...it is using \r
> without \n perhaps in typically weird-mac fashion.)
>

The question is how to use this to practical effect. I do fiddle
with my text editor prefs for various purposes and only half know
what I am doing. I got peace of mind when I settled on some prefs
to do with Saving from TI a while back. But I really should now
knock this formatting on the head.

Why am I talking to you instead of reading the manual? Because it
is less boring.

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

In article
,
Nikita the Spider wrote:

> FYI, I pasted your source code into BBEdit and there were no line
> endings present that I could see. If you put the file online again I
> could inspect it to see if there are line endings that are not
> translated or if (as I suspect) there are no line endings in the file.
> Something is probably stripping them as they get uploaded.

Thanks. I would have done it already this morning if I had not
opened up my newsreader and messed about. I have been fiddling
with it. I will stick it up again soon.

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

dorayme wrote:
> In article <5j56teF3sd08cU1@mid.individual.net>,

>
> Talk to me about formatting instead, I am desperately at sea
> about how to set my text editor and/or my Cyberduck ftp program
> and/or how much blame to apportion my server host. What are the
> general causes of something looking mighty fine on the screen in
> a text editor only to see later in the source code of some (I
> emphasise some) of my website pages, no gaps between lines that
> were there before, various bits bunched together and so on and so
> forth. Perhaps my editor is too good and complicated and I am
> lost in the variables of the enormous list of preferences.

Does your text editor strip out extra lines? Does your FTP client
compress files on upload by stripping double-spacing?

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
http://mozilla.edmullen.net
http://abington.edmullen.net
A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good.

Re: Internal linking

In article
,
Nikita the Spider wrote:

> > > > http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp

> > I use BBEdit. What should I do to make it look like it is in my
> > editor? I have tried various things and I do not know well the
> > actual levers to pull. I have followed instructions about other
> > things to good effect on BBEdit but this matter, which you have
> > identified, rears its ugly head every now and then.
>
> FYI, I pasted your source code into BBEdit and there were no line
> endings present that I could see. If you put the file online again I
> could inspect it to see if there are line endings that are not
> translated or if (as I suspect) there are no line endings in the file.
> Something is probably stripping them as they get uploaded.

I fiddled about and I _think_ this is better... I changed a
setting in my editor, probably to do with line endings from Mac
to Unix.

The first four rows will be slightly different in source to the
rest because of a bit of hand attention, the rest were set auto
to 72 characters. What a distraction.

http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Thu, 23 Aug 2007 22:18:39
GMT dorayme scribed:

>>... I think it's the browsers' faults and not the markupers'. I
> don't ...Like most things related to html, this is buggy.
>>
> I have come to accept these things. I believe in Fate. But I like
> to play God and try to steer it a bit...

Back when the original "Charlie's Angels" were on TV, I believed in Kate.
Alas, she failed me, too.

>> >> And why is your source code completely unformatted? It looks like
>> >> sh**.
>> >
>> > You are right Boji. But it looks nice on my own machine. In fact
>> > I get to cry at its sheer beauty all the time. I have to take
>> > salt tablets to make up.
>> >
>> > I have asked about this before, only now and then I get this
>> > problem and have few clues as to why?
>
>> Generally speaking, the format of text in text editors, -specifically
>> the line formatting-, is done with \r and \n instead of
. BBEdit
>> may read the "html" instead of the "text" in a special manner,
>> therefore not needing the normal LFCRs. It might have some kind of
>> option regarding this, although I don't know because I'm not psychic.
>> One would think so, though. But \r\n for feeding each line is what
>> is missing. (Or...it is using \r without \n perhaps in typically
>> weird-mac fashion.)
>>
>
> The question is how to use this to practical effect. I do fiddle
> with my text editor prefs for various purposes and only half know
> what I am doing. I got peace of mind when I settled on some prefs
> to do with Saving from TI a while back. But I really should now
> knock this formatting on the head.
>
> Why am I talking to you instead of reading the manual? Because it
> is less boring.

As Nikita (-er, the spider, not Krushchev) said, it could be the server
stripping the LFs, too. If that's the case, it's a simple fix. Just
complain to them, wait 6 or 8 months, and by then you won't care,
anyways.

Like my new x-face?

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Internal linking

In article ,
Ed Mullen wrote:

> dorayme wrote:
> > In article <5j56teF3sd08cU1@mid.individual.net>,
>
> >
> > Talk to me about formatting instead, I am desperately at sea
> > about how to set my text editor and/or my Cyberduck ftp program
> > and/or how much blame to apportion my server host. What are the
> > general causes of something looking mighty fine on the screen in
> > a text editor only to see later in the source code of some (I
> > emphasise some) of my website pages, no gaps between lines that
> > were there before, various bits bunched together and so on and so
> > forth. Perhaps my editor is too good and complicated and I am
> > lost in the variables of the enormous list of preferences.
>
> Does your text editor strip out extra lines? Does your FTP client
> compress files on upload by stripping double-spacing?

I think so yes and I want to put a bloody stop to it. I tell you,
Ed, the combination of these two programs is a team made in hell,
a law unto itself. I stay loyal to all the devils I know in case
you ask. If I kicked them out, who would take them in?

I cannot think of any setting I can improve on in BBEdit just
this mo. As for the FTP, it is Cyberduck and there are not that
many settings, must take a closer look.

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

dorayme wrote:
> In article ,
> Ed Mullen wrote:
>
>> dorayme wrote:
>>> In article <5j56teF3sd08cU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>> Talk to me about formatting instead, I am desperately at sea
>>> about how to set my text editor and/or my Cyberduck ftp program
>>> and/or how much blame to apportion my server host. What are the
>>> general causes of something looking mighty fine on the screen in
>>> a text editor only to see later in the source code of some (I
>>> emphasise some) of my website pages, no gaps between lines that
>>> were there before, various bits bunched together and so on and so
>>> forth. Perhaps my editor is too good and complicated and I am
>>> lost in the variables of the enormous list of preferences.
>> Does your text editor strip out extra lines? Does your FTP client
>> compress files on upload by stripping double-spacing?
>
> I think so yes and I want to put a bloody stop to it. I tell you,
> Ed, the combination of these two programs is a team made in hell,
> a law unto itself. I stay loyal to all the devils I know in case
> you ask. If I kicked them out, who would take them in?
>
> I cannot think of any setting I can improve on in BBEdit just
> this mo. As for the FTP, it is Cyberduck and there are not that
> many settings, must take a closer look.
>

Look in Cyberduck for something concerning Transfer Mode. If you
transfer HTML (or text) files in binary mode that /may/ be the problem.

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
http://mozilla.edmullen.net
http://abington.edmullen.net
Just for today, I will not sit in my living room all day in my
underwear. Instead, I will move my computer into the bedroom.

Re: Internal linking

In article
,
Neredbojias wrote:

> Like my new x-face?

You know how I don't like anything about you, so why ask?

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

In article ,
Ed Mullen wrote:

> > I cannot think of any setting I can improve on in BBEdit just
> > this mo. As for the FTP, it is Cyberduck and there are not that
> > many settings, must take a closer look.
> >
>
> Look in Cyberduck for something concerning Transfer Mode. If you
> transfer HTML (or text) files in binary mode that /may/ be the problem.

I did look at this before. No, I don't think so. Transfer mode is
set to auto and in this software it is the go, either ASCII or
Binary would be wrong for half the things I upload.

But I noticed the encoding for this particular server was set to
default. I have chosen utf-8 as with other servers I have on my
books.

And I have changed the "Convert Line Endings" (wasn't this what
Boji was babbling about trying to blind me with science?) to Unix
Line Endings from the former Mac Line Endings (CR) because it
sounds more geeky and because I will try anything once.

Now I will wait and see what happens in the future.

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:27:39 GMT
dorayme scribed:

> In article
> ,
> Neredbojias wrote:
>
>> Like my new x-face?
>
> You know how I don't like anything about you, so why ask?

You need a spanking.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Internal linking

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Thu, 23 Aug 2007 23:09:15 GMT
dorayme scribed:


>> FYI, I pasted your source code into BBEdit and there were no line
>> endings present that I could see. If you put the file online again I
>> could inspect it to see if there are line endings that are not
>> translated or if (as I suspect) there are no line endings in the file.
>> Something is probably stripping them as they get uploaded.
>
> I fiddled about and I _think_ this is better... I changed a
> setting in my editor, probably to do with line endings from Mac
> to Unix.
>
> The first four rows will be slightly different in source to the
> rest because of a bit of hand attention, the rest were set auto
> to 72 characters. What a distraction.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp

That's great for my left eye but what about my right eye?

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Internal linking

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:03:26 GMT
dorayme scribed:

> And I have changed the "Convert Line Endings" (wasn't this what
> Boji was babbling about trying to blind me with science?) to Unix
> Line Endings from the former Mac Line Endings (CR) because

That should do it (unless "Unix Line Endings" are something morphoditic,
too.)

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Internal linking

"Neredbojias" wrote in message
news:Xns9995DB67ADA20nanopandaneredbojias@198.186.190.161...
> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:27:39
> GMT
> dorayme scribed:
>
>> In article
>> ,
>> Neredbojias wrote:
>>
>>> Like my new x-face?
>>
>> You know how I don't like anything about you, so why ask?
>
> You need a spanking.

Jpegs?

--
Richard.

Re: Internal linking

rf wrote:
> "Neredbojias" wrote in message
> news:Xns9995DB67ADA20nanopandaneredbojias@198.186.190.161...
>> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:27:39
>> GMT
>> dorayme scribed:
>>
>>> In article
>>> ,
>>> Neredbojias wrote:
>>>
>>>> Like my new x-face?
>>> You know how I don't like anything about you, so why ask?
>> You need a spanking.
>
> Jpegs?
>

Oh, better yet, a My Space page or a YouTube video! With appropriate
disclaimers and warnings, of course!

Well, maybe not. Nah. That would just lead to people harassing me
about some innocent post about HTML or CSS or something with: "Well,
ok! Post a naughty video to prove it!!!"

And the next thing you know Jukka would be annotating all of his posts
with links to risque videos of him acting out his didacticisms
au-natural. Nah, I don't think this thread needs to continue.

But, geez, if I could just find that damned video camera ...

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
http://mozilla.edmullen.net
http://abington.edmullen.net
Friction can be a real drag.

Re: Internal linking

In article
,
Neredbojias wrote:

> > I fiddled about and I _think_ this is better... I changed a
> > setting in my editor, probably to do with line endings from Mac
> > to Unix.
> >
>
> That's great for my left eye but what about my right eye?

Does this mean something?

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

In article ,
"rf" wrote:

> "Neredbojias" wrote in message
> news:Xns9995DB67ADA20nanopandaneredbojias@198.186.190.161...
> > Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:27:39
> > GMT
> > dorayme scribed:
> >
> >> In article
> >> ,
> >> Neredbojias wrote:
> >>
> >>> Like my new x-face?
> >>
> >> You know how I don't like anything about you, so why ask?
> >
> > You need a spanking.
>
> Jpegs?

You _are_ quite a keen photographer I notice.

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

In article <8eGdnTqSbeZi-FPbnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@comcast.com>,
Ed Mullen wrote:

> Nah, I don't think this thread needs to continue.

Before you go though, I trust that the format is better in view
source now. Tell Boji and rf that it would be a healthier
activity to photograph relevant source code as they see it rather
than be distracted by their S & M fantasies.

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Fri, 24 Aug 2007 05:06:09 GMT
dorayme scribed:

>> > I fiddled about and I _think_ this is better... I changed a
>> > setting in my editor, probably to do with line endings from Mac
>> > to Unix.
>> >
>>
>> That's great for my left eye but what about my right eye?
>
> Does this mean something?

Of course it means something. Formatting text to an arbitrary width is
like creating a fixed-width web page. Line-endings come naturally at the
actual ends of lines; you don't need to propagate more of them randomly
and/or indiscriminately.

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Internal linking

In article
,
Neredbojias wrote:

> Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Fri, 24 Aug 2007 05:06:09 GMT
> dorayme scribed:
>
> >> > I fiddled about and I _think_ this is better... I changed a
> >> > setting in my editor, probably to do with line endings from Mac
> >> > to Unix.
> >> >
> >>
> >> That's great for my left eye but what about my right eye?
> >
> > Does this mean something?
>
> Of course it means something. Formatting text to an arbitrary width is
> like creating a fixed-width web page. Line-endings come naturally at the
> actual ends of lines; you don't need to propagate more of them randomly
> and/or indiscriminately.

Please speak more plainly. What is random and indiscriminate?

I fiddled about and for the first time in about 5 years I
actually used Tidy to reflow things. Usually I jam all up to the
left and set 72 chars and it does not seem too bad. Something
happened this time and you are on a war path. You know how
dangerous this is Boji.

You are someone that my shrink says I should use mercilessly to
get things off my chest. You would be surprised to know that my
friends have been remarking on how amiable I have been and these
periods always coincide with our big fights. In other words, you
are doing good by being beaten up by me. Photograph that rf. Why
don't you get a camera that does better than jpgs to _begin with_
(with a jpg it is all downhill from there... perhaps it the
downhill you like, being a skier)

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

On 2007-08-23 23:55:07 +0200, dorayme said:

> In article <5j56teF3sd08cU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> On 2007-08-22 22:56:47 +0200, dorayme said:
>>
>>> In article <5j2up4F3ovuhqU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2007-08-22 12:15:59 +0200, dorayme
>>>> said:
>>>>
>>>>> Safari does not happily negotiate
>>>>>
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
>>>>>
>>>>> iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
>>>>> IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was surprised by Safari, make the window not too big and see
>>>>> how it fails to show some of the links.
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>>> OK, now, this out of the way, you likely have a Mac. So how about
>>> confirming or giving me your observations about Safari please n
>>> respect of above.
>>
>> I'd be glad to do so, but your URL gives a 404 error today (both on
>> Safari and on iCab) though it worked yesterday. Have you moved the test
>> page?
>
> After it was pointed out to me in quite unparliamentary language
> that the source code formatting was not the best, I took it down,
> stormed off and got blind drunk. I am out on bail now and will
> see if I can see what the problem is. (It has been confirmed by a
> spider and me already that Safari likes ids in tds rather than
> trs if you read the thread. But thanks Athel.

Now it loads fine. In iCab the links work perfectly (with highlighting)
even when the window is small. Safari (2.0.4, i.e. the version that
came with my computer, now almost two years old) does a much worse job,
as you say, and not all links work. If I click on #RA_TK6, for example,
it fails to take me there, and I need to scroll.

>
> Talk to me about formatting instead,

The formatting looks just fine if I get iCab to display the source (or
Safari, Mozilla 1.7.3 or Firefox 1.5.0.3) for that matter), but if I
download your file and look at the source with TexEdit it looks a mess.
However, if I select Quick cleanup --> LFs-->CrRs (Unix-->Mac) in
TexEdit's tools menu then it gets formatted perfectly. I don't usually
go through this exercise with my own source code, because if I want to
tinker with it I go back to the original file as it was before it got
uploaded to a server running Unix. However, if I do do it (for example
with http://bip.cnrs-mrs.fr/bip10/homepage.htm) then the result is more
or less the same as with yours, in other words the formatting gets
screwed up and needs to be cleaned up before it will display properly
on the Mac.

> I am desperately at sea
> about how to set my text editor

I don't remember which editor you said you used (BBEdit?), but anyway,
it wasn't TexEdit. TexEdit (not to be confused with Apple's rudimentary
TextEdit, incidentally) is the only editor I normally use, but I
imagine other good editors offer the same Unix-->Mac conversion that
TexEdit does.

> and/or my Cyberduck ftp program
> and/or how much blame to apportion my server host. What are the
> general causes of something looking mighty fine on the screen in
> a text editor only to see later in the source code of some (I
> emphasise some) of my website pages, no gaps between lines that
> were there before, various bits bunched together and so on and so
> forth. Perhaps my editor is too good and complicated and I am
> lost in the variables of the enormous list of preferences.

As suggested above, I think the problems arise when it gets uploaded,
and there is probably nothing to do in the editor file. In any case,
the formatting looks fine if I display the source in any of the four
Mac browsers that I have installed (see above -- I used to have IE, but
I seem to have dumped it at some point), and that is all one normally
needs to do. Browsers don't care about formatting of source files, so
the only person who really needs to understand your source is you. If
others want to loook at it then they need to use a browser that
displays it properly. Maybe this is one of the things that Mac users
take for granted and that Windows users imagine to be impossible.

--
athel

Re: Internal linking

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Fri, 24 Aug 2007 08:26:01
GMT dorayme scribed:

>> >> That's great for my left eye but what about my right eye?
>> >
>> > Does this mean something?
>>
>> Of course it means something. Formatting text to an arbitrary width
>> is like creating a fixed-width web page. Line-endings come naturally
>> at the actual ends of lines; you don't need to propagate more of them
>> randomly and/or indiscriminately.
>
> Please speak more plainly. What is random and indiscriminate?
>
> I fiddled about and for the first time in about 5 years I
> actually used Tidy to reflow things. Usually I jam all up to the
> left and set 72 chars and it does not seem too bad. Something
> happened this time and you are on a war path. You know how
> dangerous this is Boji.

The fixed-width mentality again. All you apparently should have to do is
convert to Unix line-endings _without_ setting a width. Others have
suggested it might be a server problem, and it could be - how would I
know?

If that doesn't work, get a decent computer and editor.

> You are someone that my shrink says I should use mercilessly to
> get things off my chest. You would be surprised to know that my
> friends have been remarking on how amiable I have been and these
> periods always coincide with our big fights.

Well, knowing your norm, they're probably just grateful for any respite.

> In other words, you
> are doing good by being beaten up by me.

'Beating up on you'?? -Oh, brother! Such supplicating pathos. I
believe your shrink needs to see a shrink, or at least someone who views
her/him as the opposite sex.

> Photograph that rf. Why
> don't you get a camera that does better than jpgs to _begin with_
> (with a jpg it is all downhill from there... perhaps it the
> downhill you like, being a skier)

Now you're picking on rf. You _do_ have a lot of issues...

--
Neredbojias
Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.

Re: Internal linking

In article <5j7l2aF3sgddjU1@mid.individual.net>,
Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2007-08-23 23:55:07 +0200, dorayme said:
>

> >>>>> Safari does not happily negotiate
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
> >>>>>
> >>>>> iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
> >>>>> IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I was surprised by Safari, make the window not too big and see
> >>>>> how it fails to show some of the links.
> >>
>
> Now it loads fine. In iCab the links work perfectly (with highlighting)
> even when the window is small. Safari (2.0.4, i.e. the version that
> came with my computer, now almost two years old) does a much worse job,
> as you say, and not all links work. If I click on #RA_TK6, for example,
> it fails to take me there, and I need to scroll.
>
Safari is not good at it!

> >
> > Talk to me about formatting instead,
>
> The formatting looks just fine if I get iCab to display the source (or
> Safari, Mozilla 1.7.3 or Firefox 1.5.0.3) for that matter), but if I
> download your file and look at the source with TexEdit it looks a mess.
> However, if I select Quick cleanup --> LFs-->CrRs (Unix-->Mac) in
> TexEdit's tools menu then it gets formatted perfectly. I don't usually
> go through this exercise with my own source code, because if I want to
> tinker with it I go back to the original file as it was before it got
> uploaded to a server running Unix. However, if I do do it (for example
> with http://bip.cnrs-mrs.fr/bip10/homepage.htm) then the result is more
> or less the same as with yours, in other words the formatting gets
> screwed up and needs to be cleaned up before it will display properly
> on the Mac.
>
Interesting. I have done a bit of digging on this since and that
mnay be why it is appearing better. Me too about editing, rarely
ever copy paste my code from browser's view source.
Interestingly, and more and more these days, I have been changing
some things directly on the server, so to speak. In CB when the
server files are showing you can double click and open the file
(it downloads it to my machine) in BBEdit. The file name shows an
underscore then. Make the changes and hit command S (Save) and
the CB FTP program file window notes the change and "uploads" it.
It is easier and quicker... but I am reflecting on the possible
effect of some of these practices. Talk about complications
between platforms. Much easier than 10 years back. But still some
way to go eh?

--
dorayme

Re: Internal linking

On 2007-08-22 12:15:59 +0200, dorayme said:

> Safari does not happily negotiate
>
> http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
>
> iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
> IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.
>

Getting back to your original question, I imagine as you use iCab you
know about the iCab news group. My recollection (which I haven't
checked) is that when iCab introduced the highlighting of internal link
targets a couple of years ago there was some discussion of how to get
other browsers to do the same thing, and I think some suggestions
involving Javascript were made. As I normally avoid Javascript like the
plague I didn't follow this up (and after all, if people want a browser
that behaves like iCab they can get iCab). However, you may find some
useful suggestions there. I use the yahoo interface
(http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/icab/messages), which isn't as
horrible as the googlegroups interface, though it's far from ideal and
I'm sure there is a news server somewhere that carries it (though I
haven't found it yet -- unfortunately it's not on news.indivdual.net).
If by some strange mishap you haven't come across this group, you'll
find that anything Sander Tekelenburg posts is worth reading, and some
of the other contributors also know what they're talking about.

--
athel

Re: Internal linking

In article
,
dorayme wrote:

> In article
> ,
> Nikita the Spider wrote:
>
> > > > > http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
>
> > > I use BBEdit. What should I do to make it look like it is in my
> > > editor? I have tried various things and I do not know well the
> > > actual levers to pull. I have followed instructions about other
> > > things to good effect on BBEdit but this matter, which you have
> > > identified, rears its ugly head every now and then.
> >
> > FYI, I pasted your source code into BBEdit and there were no line
> > endings present that I could see. If you put the file online again I
> > could inspect it to see if there are line endings that are not
> > translated or if (as I suspect) there are no line endings in the file.
> > Something is probably stripping them as they get uploaded.
>
> I fiddled about and I _think_ this is better... I changed a
> setting in my editor, probably to do with line endings from Mac
> to Unix.
>
> The first four rows will be slightly different in source to the
> rest because of a bit of hand attention, the rest were set auto
> to 72 characters. What a distraction.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp

Ding! That did the trick. Save those settings!

--
Philip
http://NikitaTheSpider.com/
Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more

Re: Internal linking

In article <5j8ae2F3thcn9U1@mid.individual.net>,
Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2007-08-22 12:15:59 +0200, dorayme said:
>
> > Safari does not happily negotiate
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/24y5hp
> >
> > iCab is quite simply brilliant, FF is fine. I don't know about
> > IE6 and 7, Mac IE is fine too.
> >
>
> Getting back to your original question, I imagine as you use iCab you
> know about the iCab news group. My recollection (which I haven't
> checked) is that when iCab introduced the highlighting of internal link
> targets a couple of years ago there was some discussion of how to get
> other browsers to do the same thing, and I think some suggestions
> involving Javascript were made. As I normally avoid Javascript like the
> plague I didn't follow this up (and after all, if people want a browser
> that behaves like iCab they can get iCab). However, you may find some
> useful suggestions there. I use the yahoo interface
> (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/icab/messages), which isn't as
> horrible as the googlegroups interface, though it's far from ideal and
> I'm sure there is a news server somewhere that carries it (though I
> haven't found it yet -- unfortunately it's not on news.indivdual.net).
> If by some strange mishap you haven't come across this group, you'll
> find that anything Sander Tekelenburg posts is worth reading, and some
> of the other contributors also know what they're talking about.

Thank you, Athel. If I get the time. I use iCab mainly to test
sites in, there are some very handy features. Now on Tiger, I use
Safari to look stuff up because it is so fast and clean. The
little project I was doing is not for me but for complete
strangers and they will probably be mostly using Win IE! It is
just that I noticed that internal linking feature in iCab
recently.

--
dorayme