PHP Career Advice

So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.

And there's this one job - sounds tasty. It's like a temp service for
doctors. Right now, they mail in their billing hours in crayola and on
cocktail napkins... or something like that.

They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well,
simple before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW
there's gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter that
called me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project, right?

So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
use my current working framework to let them login and log their time,
and for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.

Here's the situation:

I think they expect to hire me for an hourly rate, and expect the
project to be finished sometime in January.

*The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I
don't want to miss out on all that extra cash.*

Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it
in a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.

I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
hourly recruiter jobs.

Any suggs?

Re: PHP Career Advice

"Sanders Kaufman" wrote in message
news:K1_Hi.4702$Sd4.2417@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
> So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
> everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.
>
> And there's this one job - sounds tasty. It's like a temp service for
> doctors. Right now, they mail in their billing hours in crayola and on
> cocktail napkins... or something like that.
>
> They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well, simple
> before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW there's
> gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter that called
> me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project, right?
>
> So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
> use my current working framework to let them login and log their time, and
> for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.
>
> Here's the situation:
>
> I think they expect to hire me for an hourly rate, and expect the project
> to be finished sometime in January.
>
> *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I don't
> want to miss out on all that extra cash.*
>
> Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
> but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
> the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it in
> a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.
>
> I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
> project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
> end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
> know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
> hourly recruiter jobs.
>
> Any suggs?

How can I get in touch with that recruiter for other jobs?

Shelly
(actively looking for work right now in Central Florida or telecommuting).

Re: PHP Career Advice

Shelly wrote:
> "Sanders Kaufman" wrote in message

>> I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
>> project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
>> end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
>> know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
>> hourly recruiter jobs.
>>
>> Any suggs?
>
> How can I get in touch with that recruiter for other jobs?
>
> Shelly
> (actively looking for work right now in Central Florida or telecommuting).

If you posted under your own email address, you'll know momentarily.

Re: PHP Career Advice

"Shelly" wrote in message
news:13f0savrpdmlq37@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Sanders Kaufman" wrote in message
> news:K1_Hi.4702$Sd4.2417@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
>> everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.
>>
>> And there's this one job - sounds tasty. It's like a temp service for
>> doctors. Right now, they mail in their billing hours in crayola and on
>> cocktail napkins... or something like that.
>>
>> They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well, simple
>> before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW there's
>> gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter that called
>> me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project, right?
>>
>> So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
>> use my current working framework to let them login and log their time,
>> and for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.
>>
>> Here's the situation:
>>
>> I think they expect to hire me for an hourly rate, and expect the project
>> to be finished sometime in January.
>>
>> *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I don't
>> want to miss out on all that extra cash.*
>>
>> Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
>> but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
>> the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it
>> in a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.
>>
>> I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
>> project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
>> end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
>> know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
>> hourly recruiter jobs.
>>
>> Any suggs?
>
> How can I get in touch with that recruiter for other jobs?
>
> Shelly
> (actively looking for work right now in Central Florida or telecommuting).

what background do you have...we're always hiring. company is in alabama, i
work from home in texas...have been since 2002. if you can showcase some of
your work (most important is how you program and not necessarily what you've
worked on/with), i may hook you up.

Re: PHP Career Advice

"Sanders Kaufman" wrote in message
news:K1_Hi.4702$Sd4.2417@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
> So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
> everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.
>
> And there's this one job - sounds tasty. It's like a temp service for
> doctors. Right now, they mail in their billing hours in crayola and on
> cocktail napkins... or something like that.
>
> They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well, simple
> before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW there's
> gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter that called
> me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project, right?
>
> So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
> use my current working framework to let them login and log their time, and
> for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.
>
> Here's the situation:
>
> I think they expect to hire me for an hourly rate, and expect the project
> to be finished sometime in January.
>
> *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I don't
> want to miss out on all that extra cash.*
>
> Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
> but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
> the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it in
> a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.
>
> I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
> project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
> end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
> know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
> hourly recruiter jobs.
>
> Any suggs?

i think you've still got me killfiled, sanders. however...

generally speaking, it is completely ethical to bill for the time it took
you to create your 'framework' plus the specific functionality they desire.
you should not build for any of that framework that will not be used
specifically in the product you will sell them.

i have project-builded several clients. you would be shooting yourself in
the foot because you have essentially said that you don't charge for
scope-creep...which is inevitable. i only go that route if i want more than
pay from them...such as a good nod if i want to use them as a reference or
if i may potentially use the opportunity as a way into the company as a
regular, salaried employee.

even though it is apparant that you have not consulted very long, you don't
have to appear that way to them. you need to know that they can only have
two of three things at one time - time, cost, quality. you need to be
billing more when time is an issue and they still want quality. you need to
lower your cost when they want quality and time is of no concern. you need
to always give the closest time estimate you can, but take your time to
produce quality when they want you at lower rates. make sense? always be
honest and forthcoming.

if i'm still killfiled, you're immature and just missed seasoned advice as a
result.

Re: PHP Career Advice

Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
> everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.
>
> And there's this one job - sounds tasty. It's like a temp service for
> doctors. Right now, they mail in their billing hours in crayola and on
> cocktail napkins... or something like that.
>
> They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well,
> simple before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW
> there's gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter that
> called me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project, right?
>
> So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
> use my current working framework to let them login and log their time,
> and for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.
>
> Here's the situation:
>
> I think they expect to hire me for an hourly rate, and expect the
> project to be finished sometime in January.
>
> *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I
> don't want to miss out on all that extra cash.*

You may be able to build it in a weekend, but what about all the
documentation for the NEXT guy who has to modify it, and the user
documentation, and the training course and manual you have to write.

plenty of hours there!

Plus you just KNOW that as soon as they see it, they will want to add a
feature of three hundred..


>
> Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
> but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
> the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it
> in a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.
>
> I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
> project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
> end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
> know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
> hourly recruiter jobs.
>
> Any suggs?

Stop thinking like a programmer, and start thinking like a doctor.

They don't want CODE. They want a clearly described simple SYSTEM to do
a specific JOB. You job is not to deliver code, but a complete SYSTEM.

Preferably with 30 nicely bound user manuals, and so on.

Re: PHP Career Advice

> They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well,
> simple before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW
> there's gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter
> that called me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project,
> right?

If you know that there will be feature creep, anticipate on it. Build
the simple thing and present and bill it as a "version 1.0": something
that demonstrates the simple functionality and can be used as the basis
for a more advanced application.

And, off course, guide the customer is his wishes. Otherwise, you end up
with a "candy jar of features" instead of an advanced, mature
application. You can see feature creep as bad behaviour of a customer or
as the maturing of an application.

One tip: have them use the application right away. Wishes that arise
from everyday use are more useful than wishes that arise from thinking
"what would I like?".

Boy, you are so lucky that you are billed by the hour. That means that
the customer will really feel the cost of the application. You can
program a lot, but that will cost you a lot of work and them a lot of
money. If they paid for the project as a whole, the only difference
would be that any feature creep would cost YOU the lot of money.
Also, this situation means that they want to trust you. Don't abuse it.

> So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
> use my current working framework to let them login and log their time,
> and for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.

Is your current working framework something you built yourself? If so,
this sounds like a freebie. You can charge them for the use of it. In
either hours (that you can spend on something else) or plain money.

Good luck,
--
Willem Bogaerts

Application smith
Kratz B.V.
http://www.kratz.nl/

Re: PHP Career Advice

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Sanders Kaufman wrote:

>> *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I
>> don't want to miss out on all that extra cash.*
>
> You may be able to build it in a weekend, but what about all the
> documentation for the NEXT guy who has to modify it, and the user
> documentation, and the training course and manual you have to write.

Well, there's an idea.
I do love to fill binders.

I just don't want to give them too much more than they want, lest the
application exceeds their needs by an order of cro-magnitude.




> Stop thinking like a programmer, and start thinking like a doctor.
>
> They don't want CODE. They want a clearly described simple SYSTEM to do
> a specific JOB. You job is not to deliver code, but a complete SYSTEM.

That's what my post is about. I'm not sure *what* they want or if they
know what they want, or if I can convince them that I can give them what
they want, but that they don't know they want yet.

I just know I want the gig.

(OMG - I think that's a direct quote from Pirates of Silicon Valley!)


> Preferably with 30 nicely bound user manuals, and so on.

I think that's my answer right there - although I think one or two
binders with some very wordy help screens and wizards might do the trick.

Re: PHP Career Advice

Willem Bogaerts wrote:


> Also, this situation means that they want to trust you. Don't abuse it.

That's a core reason why I'm a little hinky about this project.

It's the ultimate contractor question:
"What's the best way to calculate charges - from the cost of production,
or the value to the customer?".

I'm not gonna just play Pong in their cubicles for a paycheck. I know
people who do that, and I don't know how they can bear to waste their
time like that.

But on the other hand, I don't wanna sell an app for a mere few hundred
bucks if there's an honest opportunity to make some more serious coin.


> Is your current working framework something you built yourself? If so,
> this sounds like a freebie. You can charge them for the use of it. In
> either hours (that you can spend on something else) or plain money.

Well - it's more of an open source thing, with me as the only developer.
I'm not comfortable managing licenses yet. Probably won't be until I
can get Zend Guard and an SSL cert. paid for a couple of years.

Instead, I'm taking the profit another way - The idea behind building
the framework was that I could justify twice the rate, by developing in
a quarter of the time - and everybody makes out.

Then, later as I can demo plug-ins for and upgrades to the framework, I
can go back to those folks for a little extra juice.

I would prefer a nice, royalty deal, but I think that's a little too
complex for me.

I'm a fine code-monkey, but a lousy bidness-man.

Re: PHP Career Advice

Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Sanders Kaufman wrote:
>
>>> *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I
>>> don't want to miss out on all that extra cash.*
>>
>> You may be able to build it in a weekend, but what about all the
>> documentation for the NEXT guy who has to modify it, and the user
>> documentation, and the training course and manual you have to write.
>
> Well, there's an idea.
> I do love to fill binders.
>
> I just don't want to give them too much more than they want, lest the
> application exceeds their needs by an order of cro-magnitude.
>
>
>
>
>> Stop thinking like a programmer, and start thinking like a doctor.
>>
>> They don't want CODE. They want a clearly described simple SYSTEM to
>> do a specific JOB. You job is not to deliver code, but a complete SYSTEM.
>
> That's what my post is about. I'm not sure *what* they want or if they
> know what they want, or if I can convince them that I can give them what
> they want, but that they don't know they want yet.
>

Well go in there and ASK them.

"I am a programmer and system documentation writer. I haven't a clue
what you want, but whatever it is I can write it. Our first priority is
an exchange of knowledge: I need to understand what you want and you
need to understand what is impossible, so we don't try and attempt it:
then my first job will be to document this conversation in a short
preliminary specification that you can read, and we can argue over till
its possible, what you need ,(and even maybe what you want) . This
process will take longer that writing the code (which is not hard), and
about as long as writing the manual, : What IS hard is for me to
understand the nature of your particular problem, and for that I need
your time and assistance"

> I just know I want the gig.
>
> (OMG - I think that's a direct quote from Pirates of Silicon Valley!)
>
>
>> Preferably with 30 nicely bound user manuals, and so on.
>
> I think that's my answer right there - although I think one or two
> binders with some very wordy help screens and wizards might do the trick.

Ask them. Write a spec. Be professional. The last $500k job I
did..probably the last in my professional career - I spent about 4 days
installing and setting up kit onsite, I spent 6 days configuring at
base, I spent 2 weeks writing the spec, and another 5 days writing
training courses and 14 days delivering them.

We spent more time making the sale than implementing the solution.

What people pay good money for is complete turnkey SOLUTIONS to their
PROBLEMS.

Thats is FAR more than delivering code that works. Make sure they
understand that. You are first and foremost a business analyst, with
technical knowledge. Secondly you area systems analyst, and finally your
are an ANAL PROG (as we called) them coding to a spec, and after that
the dreaded TECH AUTH and CODE TESTER who rip the thing to pieces and
find all its problems and document the thing in PLAIN ENGLISH for the
people who think computers are spawn of the devil..

The ANAL PROG bit is actually - if the spec is clean and well founded, a
piece of piss.

The rest is NOT.

I am as a favour for some mates, busy coding up a back office system. I
have spent nearly as much time with them watching how they work, and
understanding where a computer might speed things up (surprising how
often it slows things down tho if you get it too clever) as actually
really coding it.

They are completely awestruck by the fact that I am asking THEM how they
do *their* jobs..and regarding them as the experts they are in doing it.

Frankly coding it all up is a deeply uninteresting chore: The interest
for me is analysing the business requirements into a set of computable
concepts etc. etc.

Re: PHP Career Advice

"Steve" wrote in message
news:Pa0Ii.562$W76.166@newsfe12.lga...
>
> "Shelly" wrote in message
> news:13f0savrpdmlq37@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>> "Sanders Kaufman" wrote in message
>> news:K1_Hi.4702$Sd4.2417@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>> So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
>>> everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.
>>>
>>> And there's this one job - sounds tasty. It's like a temp service for
>>> doctors. Right now, they mail in their billing hours in crayola and on
>>> cocktail napkins... or something like that.
>>>
>>> They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well,
>>> simple before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW
>>> there's gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter that
>>> called me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project, right?
>>>
>>> So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
>>> use my current working framework to let them login and log their time,
>>> and for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.
>>>
>>> Here's the situation:
>>>
>>> I think they expect to hire me for an hourly rate, and expect the
>>> project to be finished sometime in January.
>>>
>>> *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I
>>> don't want to miss out on all that extra cash.*
>>>
>>> Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
>>> but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
>>> the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it
>>> in a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.
>>>
>>> I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
>>> project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
>>> end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
>>> know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
>>> hourly recruiter jobs.
>>>
>>> Any suggs?
>>
>> How can I get in touch with that recruiter for other jobs?
>>
>> Shelly
>> (actively looking for work right now in Central Florida or
>> telecommuting).
>
> what background do you have...we're always hiring. company is in alabama,
> i work from home in texas...have been since 2002. if you can showcase some
> of your work (most important is how you program and not necessarily what
> you've worked on/with), i may hook you up.

I don't want to post in this newsgroup my email that I regularly use. If
you send an email to sheldonlg@asap-consult.com you will be notified of a
change of email address that will be specific to you, If you resend it to
the changed address, I will get it and send you the info and the email that
I regularly use. Thanks, Steve,

Shelly

Re: PHP Career Advice

"Sanders Kaufman" wrote in message
news:L37Ii.3015$4J3.726@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> Willem Bogaerts wrote:
>
>
>> Also, this situation means that they want to trust you. Don't abuse it.
>
> That's a core reason why I'm a little hinky about this project.
>
> It's the ultimate contractor question:
> "What's the best way to calculate charges - from the cost of production,
> or the value to the customer?".

When was the last time you went into a restaurant? The cost of the
hamburger and fries may have been, say, six dollars. The cost of coke you
wanted with it was $1.79. Do you know the cost of the production to them
for the coke? It was about ten cents -- and even then it is loaded with ice
so the cost is reduced even further.

The point of this is that a product is worth what a consumer is willing to
pay for it. We call that Capitalism.

My first contract with php was one my son (networking business) bid for and
got. He totally underbid it and I wonnd up working for about $3/hr.
However, I viewed it as a learning experience to get into the field and I
was doing it in my off hours. I made up for it with the next customer where
the job was simple and I made more like $125/hr.

I did learn about feature creep from that first customer. What I learned
was this:
1 - Clearly, and in WRITING, document EXACTLY what features will be in the
product.
2 - Document (always in writing) when it will be delivered and the payment
schedule -- especially the latter.
3 - Give a cost for the any additional features requested and a timeline for
delivery and payment. Do this in writing after agreement is made.
4 - Don't be shy about charging! You are a professional and deserve to be
paid for your knowledge. You can only charge for the product, so make sure
you amortize some of those unbilled hours spent being able to get to the
point of being able to do it so quickly for them.

That said, there is nothing worse that sitting on hands doing nothing while
supposedly working. Oh, yes there is. It is sitting on your hands doing
nothing and NOT getting paid. :-)

Shelly

Re: PHP Career Advice

Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
> everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.
>
> And there's this one job - sounds tasty. It's like a temp service for
> doctors. Right now, they mail in their billing hours in crayola and on
> cocktail napkins... or something like that.
>
> They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well,
> simple before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW
> there's gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter that
> called me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project, right?
>
> So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
> use my current working framework to let them login and log their time,
> and for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.
>
> Here's the situation:
>
> I think they expect to hire me for an hourly rate, and expect the
> project to be finished sometime in January.
>
> *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I
> don't want to miss out on all that extra cash.*
>
> Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
> but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
> the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it
> in a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.
>
> I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
> project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
> end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
> know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
> hourly recruiter jobs.
>
> Any suggs?

First of all, if you're going to do it project based, ensure you have a
solid set of *detailed* requirements up front. This includes page
layouts, data to be collected, what will be done with the data, etc.

IOW, everything you need to build the site the way they *say* they want
it. And charge an hourly rate for building the design document.

Estimate your time/labor based on that. Since you've never done project
estimating before, your estimate will be low - the final project will
probably take 2 to 3 times the amount of time you estimate.

Figure a rate for the project based on the your estimate plus the fudge
factor.

Include in your contract procedures for changes. If they say something
is not right, compare it to the design document. If it does not match
the design document, they pay an hourly rate for the changes. If it
does match the design document, you absorb the time. If the design
document doesn't cover that part, either it is an additional item they
didn't request previously (and therefore subject to hourly rate), or the
design document was incomplete (in which case you need to negotiate with
them - probably at a reduced rate).


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

Re: PHP Career Advice

On Sep 18, 8:27 pm, Sanders Kaufman wrote:
> So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
> everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.
> Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
> but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
> the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it
> in a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.
>
> I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
> project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
> end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
> know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
> hourly recruiter jobs.


I used to work at category4.com, and they did all their projects on a
per-hour basis, but they became upset by the same conundrum you face -
when they got done quickly and under-budget, they were penalized by
getting less money. So they've switched over and now do all projects
to a flat fee. However, estimating the right amount is a total
nightmare. It's also difficult to ensure that you and the client have
agreed to the same feature set. Misunderstandings are common. I wrote
of some of the pitfalls I've seen:

http://www.teamlalala.com/06-05-07_marketing.htm

One idea I've warmed up to is "Start with the interface first".
37Signals.com has been pushing this idea hard. For big projects, I
insist the client hire a designer and design the whole thing before
I'm willing to start writing code. The goal is to reduce risk (and
financial loss) by working out as many details out as possible, before
the first line of code is written.

Despite that, it is still common to under-estimate projects.
RawStory.com recently asked us to rebuild the code behind their site.
We estimated $50,000, which they thought was too high. Yet we used
multiple methods to work out what was involved, and each method we
used steered us back to a similar answer (give or take $10,000). My co-
worker is certain that at $50,000 we under-bid the project. All the
same, RawStory.com went looking for someone else.

That brings up another problem: you've got to educate the client about
how much work is involved. This won't be possible if you yourself
don't know how much work is involved.

Category4 is the most successful web design firm in central Virginia.
I've often wondered why, and I've decided the probable answer is their
focus on client management. The client managers provide a buffer
between the client, on the one hand, and the designers and
programmers, on the other. That buffer is crucial - it helps stop
feature creep. The client managers goal is to provide the discipline
that keeps a project on time and on budget. Without that, it is
inevitable that a project will mutate while work is going on, and come
in late and over-budget.

Re: PHP Career Advice

On Sep 18, 8:43 pm, "Shelly" wrote:
> "Sanders Kaufman" wrote in message
>
> news:K1_Hi.4702$Sd4.2417@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
>
>
> > So now, these PHP recruiters are calling out of the blue and from
> > everywhere. My phone ain't rung like this since the Clinton years.
>
> > And there's this one job - sounds tasty. It's like a temp service for
> > doctors. Right now, they mail in their billing hours in crayola and on
> > cocktail napkins... or something like that.
>
> > They want a simple little web-based hours-tracking utility - well, simple
> > before they start in with the creepy features... and you KNOW there's
> > gonna be feature creep, because it was an agency recruiter that called
> > me - and they bill by the hour, rather than the project, right?
>
> > So I figure I'll setup something named "DocBilling.int" or somesuch and
> > use my current working framework to let them login and log their time, and
> > for the doc's bean-counters to be able to view a couple of reports.
>
> > Here's the situation:
>
> > I think they expect to hire me for an hourly rate, and expect the project
> > to be finished sometime in January.
>
> > *The problem is that I can build the damn thing in a weekend, but I don't
> > want to miss out on all that extra cash.*
>
> > Let's say I'm getting $10/hr - and man, it's sooo much more than that! -
> > but let's say. If I do it the way they expect it to be done, I can milk
> > the contract for what - 8x40hr weeks - that's $3k plus. But if I do it in
> > a 16 hr weekend - I don't even get $200.
>
> > I was thinking that, when I talk to them next, I should suggest a
> > project-based, rather than hourly-based, rate - and estimate at the high
> > end. But I've never done that before through a recruiter, and I don't
> > know how it'll go over. I just know I've *always* had problems with
> > hourly recruiter jobs.
>
> > Any suggs?
>
> How can I get in touch with that recruiter for other jobs?

Hey, Shelley, I'm quitting at Bluewall LLC (bluewallllc.com) and they
are desperate to find a replacement for me. You should send them your
resume.

Re: PHP Career Advice

On Sep 19, 8:30 am, "Shelly" wrote:
> My first contract with php was one my son (networking business) bid for and
> got. He totally underbid it and I wonnd up working for about $3/hr.
> However, I viewed it as a learning experience to get into the field and I
> was doing it in my off hours. I made up for it with the next customer where
> the job was simple and I made more like $125/hr.
>
> I did learn about feature creep from that first customer. What I learned
> was this:
> 1 - Clearly, and in WRITING, document EXACTLY what features will be in the
> product.
> 2 - Document (always in writing) when it will be delivered and the payment
> schedule -- especially the latter.

Ask for 25% as a deposit.

Re: PHP Career Advice

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news:1190201252.5743.0@damia.uk.clara.net...

> Ask them. Write a spec. Be professional. The last $500k job I
> did..probably the last in my professional career - I spent about 4 days
> installing and setting up kit onsite, I spent 6 days configuring at base,
> I spent 2 weeks writing the spec, and another 5 days writing training
> courses and 14 days delivering them.

A half-mil for a month's work?
Damn, I knew I was under-bidding this thing!


> What people pay good money for is complete turnkey SOLUTIONS to their
> PROBLEMS.

You're not from Texas, are you? ;)