Groovy/Grails vs PHP for scalable web site dev

I am that rare point in a developers career where I am starting a new
web based project and I have a 4-8 week slot to train myself in the
most appropriate technology for this task. As a non-web based C#/C++
programmer with over 14 years of experience this means that although I
have a sound understanding of the software development, design and
implementation, I am probably going to have to learn a new language/
framework from scratch (if I am going to be honest this is one of the
main attractions for me). My goals for the project are as follows:
1) Highly scalable web site (millions of hits a day)
2) Backend database probably with shards. Static data store for
uploaded media files. Flex2 (or equivalent) front end.
3) Team of 3 programmers (including myself).
4) After initial period for learning technology, short amount of time
(2-3 months) to get to proof of concept.

My initial technology research pointed to PHP, however lately I have
noticed a growing interest in Grails.
Has anybody in this group had any experience developing in Grails? Is
it a stable platform? Is something about PHP inherently superior to
Grails? If I want to attract the coolest software engineers to my
project which would be more attractive Grails or PHP?

Re: Groovy/Grails vs PHP for scalable web site dev

On Nov 28, 9:25 am, Simon Shaw wrote:
>
> I am that rare point in a developers career where I am starting a new
> web based project and I have a 4-8 week slot to train myself in the
> most appropriate technology for this task. As a non-web based C#/C++
> programmer with over 14 years of experience this means that although I
> have a sound understanding of the software development, design and
> implementation, I am probably going to have to learn a new language/
> framework from scratch (if I am going to be honest this is one of the
> main attractions for me). My goals for the project are as follows:
> 1) Highly scalable web site (millions of hits a day)
> 2) Backend database probably with shards. Static data store for
> uploaded media files. Flex2 (or equivalent) front end.
> 3) Team of 3 programmers (including myself).
> 4) After initial period for learning technology, short amount of time
> (2-3 months) to get to proof of concept.

You forgot to mention the budget... Given your proficiency in C#/C++
it seems ASP(.Net) would be a natural path to explore (no need to
learn a new language), but can you afford all the licenses? Also, do
you have a preference in terms of the OS, HTTP server, and database
server you want to use?

> My initial technology research pointed to PHP, however lately
> I have noticed a growing interest in Grails.

Growing interest does not necessarily mean good scalability.

> Is it a stable platform?

The truth is, nobody knows and nobody will until someone either builds
something big on it or spectacularly fails trying.

> Is something about PHP inherently superior to Grails?

Inherently, no. Practically, yes. There are large-scale PHP
applications running out there today (Friendster, Flickr, and
Facebook, to name a few). I am yet to hear of one written in Groovy
(it's possible, however, that I am simply not listening carefully
enough).

> If I want to attract the coolest software engineers to
> my project which would be more attractive Grails or PHP?

"Coolness" is such a subjective notion...

Cheers,
NC

Re: Groovy/Grails vs PHP for scalable web site dev

Simon Shaw wrote:
> I am that rare point in a developers career where I am starting a new
> web based project and I have a 4-8 week slot to train myself in the
> most appropriate technology for this task. As a non-web based C#/C++
> programmer with over 14 years of experience this means that although I
> have a sound understanding of the software development, design and
> implementation, I am probably going to have to learn a new language/
> framework from scratch (if I am going to be honest this is one of the
> main attractions for me). My goals for the project are as follows:
> 1) Highly scalable web site (millions of hits a day)
> 2) Backend database probably with shards. Static data store for
> uploaded media files. Flex2 (or equivalent) front end.
> 3) Team of 3 programmers (including myself).
> 4) After initial period for learning technology, short amount of time
> (2-3 months) to get to proof of concept.
>
> My initial technology research pointed to PHP, however lately I have
> noticed a growing interest in Grails.
> Has anybody in this group had any experience developing in Grails? Is
> it a stable platform? Is something about PHP inherently superior to
> Grails? If I want to attract the coolest software engineers to my
> project which would be more attractive Grails or PHP?

I know this is a php group, but why not give Python/Django a chance. It
was developed by a group of php developers, it's easy to use, fast and
flexible. And i think it can cover all your requirements. It's well
documented, and has a very active user group. For an experienced
programmer, who doesn't know python, it will take you a week or two to
learn everything to know how to build an Django web app.
On the other side if you stick with PHP you have a pretty wide range of
chices. For a very serius framework I'll reccomend you PostNuke , which
is currently entering it eight version (don't be mistaken by its cms
description, you can develop in it everything you want. ). Or you can
use CakePHP or Symphone. I've heard good things about them, but I
haven't worked in them, so I can't tell you much.
I you don't find a framework you like, you could build your system from
scratch. There are a lot of open source application components out
there. I strongly suggest you use a template engine, it will make your
life easier (don't write html code and php code mashed up together),
Smarty is the way to go these days.
Hope that helps.

Re: Groovy/Grails vs PHP for scalable web site dev

On Nov 29, 11:23 am, taps128 wrote:
> Simon Shaw wrote:
> > I am that rare point in a developers career where I am starting a new
> > web based project and I have a 4-8 week slot to train myself in the
> > most appropriate technology for this task. As a non-web based C#/C++
> > programmer with over 14 years of experience this means that although I
> > have a sound understanding of the software development, design and
> > implementation, I am probably going to have to learn a new language/
> > framework from scratch (if I am going to be honest this is one of the
> > main attractions for me). My goals for the project are as follows:
> > 1) Highly scalable web site (millions of hits a day)
> > 2) Backend database probably with shards. Static data store for
> > uploaded media files. Flex2 (or equivalent) front end.
> > 3) Team of 3 programmers (including myself).
> > 4) After initial period for learning technology, short amount of time
> > (2-3 months) to get to proof of concept.
>
> > My initial technology research pointed to PHP, however lately I have
> > noticed a growing interest in Grails.
> > Has anybody in this group had any experience developing in Grails? Is
> > it a stable platform? Is something about PHP inherently superior to
> > Grails? If I want to attract the coolest software engineers to my
> > project which would be more attractive Grails or PHP?
>
> I know this is a php group, but why not give Python/Django a chance. It
> was developed by a group of php developers, it's easy to use, fast and
> flexible. And i think it can cover all your requirements. It's well
> documented, and has a very active user group. For an experienced
> programmer, who doesn't know python, it will take you a week or two to
> learn everything to know how to build an Django web app.
> On the other side if you stick with PHP you have a pretty wide range of
> chices. For a very serius framework I'll reccomend you PostNuke , which
> is currently entering it eight version (don't be mistaken by its cms
> description, you can develop in it everything you want. ). Or you can
> use CakePHP or Symphone. I've heard good things about them, but I
> haven't worked in them, so I can't tell you much.
> I you don't find a framework you like, you could build your system from
> scratch. There are a lot of open source application components out
> there. I strongly suggest you use a template engine, it will make your
> life easier (don't write html code and php code mashed up together),
> Smarty is the way to go these days.
> Hope that helps.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for your very interesting response.
Do you have any examples of large sites that have been written using
Django/Python?
Are the framework suggestions you make for Django/Python or PHP?

Re: Groovy/Grails vs PHP for scalable web site dev

On Nov 29, 3:18 pm, Simon Shaw wrote:
>
> Do you have any examples of large sites that have been written
> using Django/Python?

Can't say about Django, but YouTube is definitely written in Python,
as Guido van Rossum (the original developer of Python, currently
working for Google) was surprised to find out after Google acquired
YouTube:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/07 0323.html

> Are the framework suggestions you make for Django/Python or PHP?

Let's see... PostNuke, CakePHP, and Symfony (sic!) are all PHP
products. Django is a framework for Python applications.

Cheers,
NC

Re: Groovy/Grails vs PHP for scalable web site dev

Simon Shaw wrote:
> On Nov 29, 11:23 am, taps128 wrote:
>> Simon Shaw wrote:
>>> I am that rare point in a developers career where I am starting a new
>>> web based project and I have a 4-8 week slot to train myself in the
>>> most appropriate technology for this task. As a non-web based C#/C++
>>> programmer with over 14 years of experience this means that although I
>>> have a sound understanding of the software development, design and
>>> implementation, I am probably going to have to learn a new language/
>>> framework from scratch (if I am going to be honest this is one of the
>>> main attractions for me). My goals for the project are as follows:
>>> 1) Highly scalable web site (millions of hits a day)
>>> 2) Backend database probably with shards. Static data store for
>>> uploaded media files. Flex2 (or equivalent) front end.
>>> 3) Team of 3 programmers (including myself).
>>> 4) After initial period for learning technology, short amount of time
>>> (2-3 months) to get to proof of concept.
>>> My initial technology research pointed to PHP, however lately I have
>>> noticed a growing interest in Grails.
>>> Has anybody in this group had any experience developing in Grails? Is
>>> it a stable platform? Is something about PHP inherently superior to
>>> Grails? If I want to attract the coolest software engineers to my
>>> project which would be more attractive Grails or PHP?
>> I know this is a php group, but why not give Python/Django a chance. It
>> was developed by a group of php developers, it's easy to use, fast and
>> flexible. And i think it can cover all your requirements. It's well
>> documented, and has a very active user group. For an experienced
>> programmer, who doesn't know python, it will take you a week or two to
>> learn everything to know how to build an Django web app.
>> On the other side if you stick with PHP you have a pretty wide range of
>> chices. For a very serius framework I'll reccomend you PostNuke , which
>> is currently entering it eight version (don't be mistaken by its cms
>> description, you can develop in it everything you want. ). Or you can
>> use CakePHP or Symphone. I've heard good things about them, but I
>> haven't worked in them, so I can't tell you much.
>> I you don't find a framework you like, you could build your system from
>> scratch. There are a lot of open source application components out
>> there. I strongly suggest you use a template engine, it will make your
>> life easier (don't write html code and php code mashed up together),
>> Smarty is the way to go these days.
>> Hope that helps.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanks for your very interesting response.
> Do you have any examples of large sites that have been written using
> Django/Python?
Hmm, you can find a list of sites using django here :
http://www.djangosites.org/ . The authors of the framework work in the
media bussines, so they made it as stable and fast as possible. You can
read everything about it in the documentation. I'd suggest to you , you
give it a try.
I've been working with php for two years now, and I was amazed at the
speed I picked it, and the easy I developed a dummy application in it.
If you are a programmer you'll love it.
> Are the framework suggestions you make for Django/Python or PHP?
They are all PHP frameworks. PHP has a lot of great sowftware written
for it by a lot of experienced folks. If you have a C background you'll
pick it up really, really fast. Just try a few frameworks and see whats
good for you.