Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

John Doe wrote:

> .. I use a photography as pic, it's a bitmap.

You don't want to use a bitmap image on the Web.

--
-bts
-Friends don't let friends drive Vista

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

John Doe wrote:
>
> I planned to use jpg or png,
> both widely used since eons on the web and afaik both bitmap graphic
> formats ;-)

png could be a vector or bitmap image, though vector images should
probably be converted to bitmap for web use.

--
Berg

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

"Bergamot" wrote in message
news:5sv7luF1am060U1@mid.individual.net...
> John Doe wrote:
>>
>> I planned to use jpg or png,
>> both widely used since eons on the web and afaik both bitmap graphic
>> formats ;-)
>
> png could be a vector or bitmap image, though vector images should
> probably be converted to bitmap for web use.

png can't be a vector image. A rasterisation of a vector image, but not a
vector image.

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

In article ,
"Nik Coughlin" wrote:

> "Bergamot" wrote in message
> news:5sv7luF1am060U1@mid.individual.net...
> > John Doe wrote:
> >>
> >> I planned to use jpg or png,
> >> both widely used since eons on the web and afaik both bitmap graphic
> >> formats ;-)
> >
> > png could be a vector or bitmap image, though vector images should
> > probably be converted to bitmap for web use.
>
> png can't be a vector image. A rasterisation of a vector image, but not a
> vector image.

I would have thought Bergamot right?

At least a .png file can often contain vector objects. I always
keep master files of some things I do in Fireworks in the native
saved format with layers, text and other vector objects. I export
them for the web into various formats including png. What is
exported are also .png files. These latter are not vector
carriers though.

--
dorayme

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

On 2007-12-20, dorayme wrote:
> In article ,
> "Nik Coughlin" wrote:
>
>> "Bergamot" wrote in message
>> news:5sv7luF1am060U1@mid.individual.net...
>> > John Doe wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I planned to use jpg or png,
>> >> both widely used since eons on the web and afaik both bitmap graphic
>> >> formats ;-)
>> >
>> > png could be a vector or bitmap image, though vector images should
>> > probably be converted to bitmap for web use.
>>
>> png can't be a vector image. A rasterisation of a vector image, but not a
>> vector image.
>
> I would have thought Bergamot right?
>
> At least a .png file can often contain vector objects. I always
> keep master files of some things I do in Fireworks in the native
> saved format with layers, text and other vector objects. I export
> them for the web into various formats including png. What is
> exported are also .png files. These latter are not vector
> carriers though.

Not sure what you mean by a vector object or carrier, but generally a
"vector image" is a series of instructions of lines and curves
to draw rather than an array of pixels.

Jpeg, PNG and GIF are all arrays of pixels just compressed in different
ways. I'm pretty sure you can't have vector pngs in that sense.

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

..oO(dorayme)

>At least a .png file can often contain vector objects. I always
>keep master files of some things I do in Fireworks in the native
>saved format with layers, text and other vector objects. I export
>them for the web into various formats including png. What is
>exported are also .png files. These latter are not vector
>carriers though.

Fireworks PNG != Standard PNG

FW stores a lot of additional information in the PNG, which is why these
files are usually much bigger than the exported PNGs for the Web.

Micha

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

In article ,
Michael Fesser wrote:

> .oO(dorayme)
>
> >At least a .png file can often contain vector objects. I always
> >keep master files of some things I do in Fireworks in the native
> >saved format with layers, text and other vector objects. I export
> >them for the web into various formats including png. What is
> >exported are also .png files. These latter are not vector
> >carriers though.
>
> Fireworks PNG != Standard PNG
>

Well, ok, that is probably more than a very fair point. I just
saw Bergamot being contradicted and it being Xmas, and we not
ever quite getting on well, I thought I would leap to his
defence.

Tell the truth, I have not tried to ever put a FW native .png
vector object carrying file up on the web. Must have a go and see
what happens.

--
dorayme

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

In article ,
Ben C wrote:

> On 2007-12-20, dorayme wrote:
> > In article ,
> > "Nik Coughlin" wrote:
> >
> >> "Bergamot" wrote in message
> >> news:5sv7luF1am060U1@mid.individual.net...
> >> > John Doe wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I planned to use jpg or png,
> >> >> both widely used since eons on the web and afaik both bitmap graphic
> >> >> formats ;-)
> >> >
> >> > png could be a vector or bitmap image, though vector images should
> >> > probably be converted to bitmap for web use.
> >>
> >> png can't be a vector image. A rasterisation of a vector image, but not a
> >> vector image.
> >
> > I would have thought Bergamot right?
> >
> > At least a .png file can often contain vector objects. I always
> > keep master files of some things I do in Fireworks in the native
> > saved format with layers, text and other vector objects. I export
> > them for the web into various formats including png. What is
> > exported are also .png files. These latter are not vector
> > carriers though.
>
> Not sure what you mean by a vector object or carrier, but generally a
> "vector image" is a series of instructions of lines and curves
> to draw rather than an array of pixels.
>
> Jpeg, PNG and GIF are all arrays of pixels just compressed in different
> ways. I'm pretty sure you can't have vector pngs in that sense.

It seems it is a *native* Fireworks format I am talking about.
See Michael Fesser's succinct way of putting it in another post.

FW is very clever! Illustrator and PS for the web rolled into
one. A truly strange hybrid beast that takes a bit of getting
used to.

--
dorayme

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

dorayme wrote:
> In article ,
> Ben C wrote:
>
>> On 2007-12-20, dorayme wrote:
>>> In article ,
>>> "Nik Coughlin" wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Bergamot" wrote in message
>>>> news:5sv7luF1am060U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> John Doe wrote:
>>>>>> I planned to use jpg or png,
>>>>>> both widely used since eons on the web and afaik both bitmap graphic
>>>>>> formats ;-)
>>>>> png could be a vector or bitmap image, though vector images should
>>>>> probably be converted to bitmap for web use.
>>>> png can't be a vector image. A rasterisation of a vector image, but not a
>>>> vector image.
>>> I would have thought Bergamot right?
>>>
>>> At least a .png file can often contain vector objects. I always
>>> keep master files of some things I do in Fireworks in the native
>>> saved format with layers, text and other vector objects. I export
>>> them for the web into various formats including png. What is
>>> exported are also .png files. These latter are not vector
>>> carriers though.
>> Not sure what you mean by a vector object or carrier, but generally a
>> "vector image" is a series of instructions of lines and curves
>> to draw rather than an array of pixels.
>>
>> Jpeg, PNG and GIF are all arrays of pixels just compressed in different
>> ways. I'm pretty sure you can't have vector pngs in that sense.
>
> It seems it is a *native* Fireworks format I am talking about.
> See Michael Fesser's succinct way of putting it in another post.
>
> FW is very clever! Illustrator and PS for the web rolled into
> one. A truly strange hybrid beast that takes a bit of getting
> used to.
>

I think you will find that FW rasterizes the vector object or is not a
standard PNG format like my CorelDraw can have vector and bitmap
composite file. The true test if FW truly embeds the object as vector
then you should be able to extract the object and the result should be
the original vector. But I can say with fair certainty that any PNG that
is displays in a web browser is raster only.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

In article ,
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote:

> dorayme wrote:

> >>> At least a .png file can often contain vector objects. I always
> >>> keep master files of some things I do in Fireworks in the native
> >>> saved format with layers, text and other vector objects. I export
> >>> them for the web into various formats including png. What is
> >>> exported are also .png files. These latter are not vector
> >>> carriers though.

>
> I think you will find that FW rasterizes the vector object or is not a
> standard PNG format like my CorelDraw can have vector and bitmap
> composite file. The true test if FW truly embeds the object as vector
> then you should be able to extract the object and the result should be
> the original vector. But I can say with fair certainty that any PNG that
> is displays in a web browser is raster only.


I thought I was sort of saying something similar... put it this
way, in my originally made FW files that are saved (*not
exported* to international standard formats), the squares and
lines and text and other things I have made (as one does in
Illustrator) seem to retain their vector qualities.

I now know that they also appear the same whether exported or not
in browsers (at least in Safari, FF, iCab, Opera and MacIE):

http://netweaver.com.au/alt/png/png.html

The pie.png was exported from pieNativeFW.png

--
dorayme

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

dorayme wrote:
> In article ,
> "Jonathan N. Little" wrote:
>
>> dorayme wrote:
>
>>>>> At least a .png file can often contain vector objects. I always
>>>>> keep master files of some things I do in Fireworks in the native
>>>>> saved format with layers, text and other vector objects. I export
>>>>> them for the web into various formats including png. What is
>>>>> exported are also .png files. These latter are not vector
>>>>> carriers though.
>
>> I think you will find that FW rasterizes the vector object or is not a
>> standard PNG format like my CorelDraw can have vector and bitmap
>> composite file. The true test if FW truly embeds the object as vector
>> then you should be able to extract the object and the result should be
>> the original vector. But I can say with fair certainty that any PNG that
>> is displays in a web browser is raster only.
>
>
> I thought I was sort of saying something similar... put it this
> way, in my originally made FW files that are saved (*not
> exported* to international standard formats), the squares and
> lines and text and other things I have made (as one does in
> Illustrator) seem to retain their vector qualities.
>
> I now know that they also appear the same whether exported or not
> in browsers (at least in Safari, FF, iCab, Opera and MacIE):
>
> http://netweaver.com.au/alt/png/png.html
>
> The pie.png was exported from pieNativeFW.png
>

It is quite obvious, raster only in both cases. Vector on enlargement
would have not anti-aliasing blur. If I have a composite CDR I can
select the vector part and save as any pure vector format with no
distortion, SVG, EPS, AI, DWG, CDR...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

In article <300b8$476b2496$40cba7ad$2850@NAXS.COM>,
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote:

> dorayme wrote:
> > In article ,
> > "Jonathan N. Little" wrote:
> >
> >> dorayme wrote:
> >
> >>>>> At least a .png file can often contain vector objects. I always
> >>>>> keep master files of some things I do in Fireworks in the native
> >>>>> saved format with layers, text and other vector objects. I export
> >>>>> them for the web into various formats including png. What is
> >>>>> exported are also .png files. These latter are not vector
> >>>>> carriers though.
> >
> >> I think you will find that FW rasterizes the vector object or is not a
> >> standard PNG format like my CorelDraw can have vector and bitmap
> >> composite file. The true test if FW truly embeds the object as vector
> >> then you should be able to extract the object and the result should be
> >> the original vector. But I can say with fair certainty that any PNG that
> >> is displays in a web browser is raster only.
> >
> >
> > I thought I was sort of saying something similar... put it this
> > way, in my originally made FW files that are saved (*not
> > exported* to international standard formats), the squares and
> > lines and text and other things I have made (as one does in
> > Illustrator) seem to retain their vector qualities.
> >
> > I now know that they also appear the same whether exported or not
> > in browsers (at least in Safari, FF, iCab, Opera and MacIE):
> >
> > http://netweaver.com.au/alt/png/png.html
> >
> > The pie.png was exported from pieNativeFW.png
> >
>
> It is quite obvious, raster only in both cases. Vector on enlargement
> would have not anti-aliasing blur. If I have a composite CDR I can
> select the vector part and save as any pure vector format with no
> distortion, SVG, EPS, AI, DWG, CDR...

Nothing is obvious to me. Have not got that kind of mind.
Everything is always complicated. But hang on to your shirt
Jonathan, I am not really disputing anything you say, just making
one thing clear. The original file - same one that I ftp'd up to
the server has vector in it, what the browser does with it is
something else again, it does not carry the vector info through,
that is clear but it does not act back on the poor innocent file
sitting on the server either to make it lose its vector
properties. It is just that the browser is blind to some of the
info in the file. The FW app is not.

http://netweaver.com.au/alt/png/png.html

I grabbed the original file called pieNativeFW.png, the very one
that I loaded to the server for above and reopened in FW app and
copied and pasted the object into a new file with a bigger
canvas. And just dragged the object bigger. It retained its
sharpness. And you can see it at its natural size as last item at
above.

I have never doubted that it is no longer a vector object on the
browser or when you get it. FW is an interesting app that has
objects that are not altogether one thing or another.

All the best to you.

--
dorayme

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

In article
,
dorayme wrote:

> I grabbed the original file called pieNativeFW.png, the very one
> that I loaded to the server for above and reopened in FW app and
> copied and pasted the object into a new file with a bigger
> canvas. And just dragged the object bigger. It retained its
> sharpness. And you can see it at its natural size as last item at
> above.
>
> I have never doubted that it is no longer a vector object on the
> browser or when you get it. FW is an interesting app that has
> objects that are not altogether one thing or another.

I must say, there is one thing I have not tried yet and that is
to download the file back from the server via my FTP program (not
save it from the browser or open my original file) and see if it
has lost any vector properties. That would be news to me. Hang
on!

Nope. It retains it.

One has to occasionally make an experiment because reality has a
habit of biting the speculating mind.

--
dorayme

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

dorayme wrote:

> http://netweaver.com.au/alt/png/png.html
>
> I grabbed the original file called pieNativeFW.png, the very one
> that I loaded to the server for above and reopened in FW app and
> copied and pasted the object into a new file with a bigger
> canvas. And just dragged the object bigger. It retained its
> sharpness. And you can see it at its natural size as last item at
> above.
>
> I have never doubted that it is no longer a vector object on the
> browser or when you get it. FW is an interesting app that has
> objects that are not altogether one thing or another.
>

The only difference I can detect is the Native is 24-bit and the other
is 8-bit. Both only have 1 object. If there is a vector in there is is
very proprietary.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

dorayme wrote:

> Nope. It retains it.
>
> One has to occasionally make an experiment because reality has a
> habit of biting the speculating mind.
>

http://www.bu.edu/webcentral/learning/fireworks1/introductio n.html
BU | WebCentral | Learning | Fireworks | Introduction | Graphics Formats

Yep, very proprietary.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

In article <5d820$476b3de1$40cba7ad$12616@NAXS.COM>,
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote:

> dorayme wrote:
>
> > http://netweaver.com.au/alt/png/png.html
> >
> > I grabbed the original file called pieNativeFW.png, the very one
> > that I loaded to the server for above and reopened in FW app and
> > copied and pasted the object into a new file with a bigger
> > canvas. And just dragged the object bigger. It retained its
> > sharpness. And you can see it at its natural size as last item at
> > above.
> >
> > I have never doubted that it is no longer a vector object on the
> > browser or when you get it. FW is an interesting app that has
> > objects that are not altogether one thing or another.
> >
>
> The only difference I can detect is the Native is 24-bit and the other
> is 8-bit. Both only have 1 object. If there is a vector in there is is
> very proprietary.

The 8 and 24 are not relevant. But you are spot on with saying
the proprietary bit. You would not be able to detect any vector
object because your access is only via the browser and in the
browser there is no trace of the goodies in the file on the
server.

--
dorayme

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

In article ,
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote:

> dorayme wrote:
>
> > Nope. It retains it.
> >
> > One has to occasionally make an experiment because reality has a
> > habit of biting the speculating mind.
> >
>
> http://www.bu.edu/webcentral/learning/fireworks1/introductio n.html
> BU | WebCentral | Learning | Fireworks | Introduction | Graphics Formats
>
> Yep, very proprietary.

Yes, very. But quite a wonder of the world.

--
dorayme

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

"dorayme" wrote in message
news:doraymeRidThis-F95A67.08495221122007@news-vip.optusnet. com.au...
> In article ,
> "Nik Coughlin" wrote:
>
>> "Bergamot" wrote in message
>> news:5sv7luF1am060U1@mid.individual.net...
>> > John Doe wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I planned to use jpg or png,
>> >> both widely used since eons on the web and afaik both bitmap graphic
>> >> formats ;-)
>> >
>> > png could be a vector or bitmap image, though vector images should
>> > probably be converted to bitmap for web use.
>>
>> png can't be a vector image. A rasterisation of a vector image, but not
>> a
>> vector image.
>
> I would have thought Bergamot right?
>
> At least a .png file can often contain vector objects. I always
> keep master files of some things I do in Fireworks in the native
> saved format with layers, text and other vector objects. I export
> them for the web into various formats including png. What is
> exported are also .png files. These latter are not vector
> carriers though.

Fireworks saves the vector data into the png metadata. It's not part of the
png standard. You could save vector data into mp3 using metadata. The png
format itself doesn't support vectors.

Re: Positioning text relatively to a picture

In article ,
"Nik Coughlin" wrote:

> "dorayme" wrote in message
> news:doraymeRidThis-F95A67.08495221122007@news-vip.optusnet. com.au...
> > In article ,
> > "Nik Coughlin" wrote:
> >
> >> "Bergamot" wrote in message
> >> news:5sv7luF1am060U1@mid.individual.net...
> >> > John Doe wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I planned to use jpg or png,
> >> >> both widely used since eons on the web and afaik both bitmap graphic
> >> >> formats ;-)
> >> >
> >> > png could be a vector or bitmap image, though vector images should
> >> > probably be converted to bitmap for web use.
> >>
> >> png can't be a vector image. A rasterisation of a vector image, but not
> >> a
> >> vector image.
> >
> > I would have thought Bergamot right?
> >
> > At least a .png file can often contain vector objects. I always
> > keep master files of some things I do in Fireworks in the native
> > saved format with layers, text and other vector objects. I export
> > them for the web into various formats including png. What is
> > exported are also .png files. These latter are not vector
> > carriers though.
>
> Fireworks saves the vector data into the png metadata. It's not part of the
> png standard. You could save vector data into mp3 using metadata. The png
> format itself doesn't support vectors.

I understand what you are saying and you provide me with a
language to say things (metadata).

In the experiments of yesterday, the browser was ignoring the
metadata. Jonathan could not use this metadata because he did not
have FW.

I still see Bergamot's words as fitting a natural truth. It is
just that there are complications in the interpretation.

--
dorayme