Need Your Opinions

Hello.

I'm new to the entire web development/database development thing.

I'm just completing the learning process for HTML/CSS. I've discovered that I
want to start a web/database development company sometime in the next 4 years
and I'm very dedicated to learning the necessary languages to do so (or to
have a solid foundation).

I know already that I need to get deeper into the PHP's, MYSQL's, and other
database languages.
My plan is to learn the languages in this order: HTML/CSS, Javascript,
Actionscript, PHP, MYSQL, ASP or PERL.

I wanted to know your opinions on what languages you think I need to have a
strong foundation. Are the languages that I mentioned above good enough? Will
they be outdated 4-5 years from now? What would the demand be like for those
languages mentioned above 4-5 years from now?

Also, when I say that I want to incorporate database development into my
company, I also mean real company databases, not just online databases.

So what do you think.

--
Message posted via http://www.webmasterkb.com

Re: Need Your Opinions

"LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com" wrote in message
news:7ddc5037f3afa@uwe...
> Hello.
>
> I'm new to the entire web development/database development thing.
>
> I'm just completing the learning process for HTML/CSS. I've discovered
> that I
> want to start a web/database development company sometime in the next 4
> years
> and I'm very dedicated to learning the necessary languages to do so (or to
> have a solid foundation).
>
> I know already that I need to get deeper into the PHP's, MYSQL's, and
> other
> database languages.
> My plan is to learn the languages in this order: HTML/CSS, Javascript,
> Actionscript, PHP, MYSQL, ASP or PERL.
>
> I wanted to know your opinions on what languages you think I need to have
> a
> strong foundation. Are the languages that I mentioned above good enough?
> Will
> they be outdated 4-5 years from now? What would the demand be like for
> those
> languages mentioned above 4-5 years from now?
>
> Also, when I say that I want to incorporate database development into my
> company, I also mean real company databases, not just online databases.
>
> So what do you think.

that there's not enough information for anyone to give a good suggestion.
each is a tool. you've yet to define the job to be done.

i'd learn ansi-sql. that knowledge is applicable to any db you use. choosing
the db is a matter of expense vs. logistics - i.e. load and storage
capacity.

as for the languages? it is odd that actionscript makes your list. the
others are very widely used and supported. that means that should you hit a
road block, someone can help you out. there will be patches for bugs. there
is a good selection of potential employees and employers - depending if you
hire or want to be hired. they've all been around for years and nothing
indicates they'll be gone any time soon. pick one, learn it and use it as
best you can...master it. once you've learned one language, mastering others
is a very small feat. employers want you to demonstrate you have the
capacity to learn and use. you have a good chance of getting a job with any
of those technologies even without specific knowlege of the one required by
a company. that's been my experience.

again, however, pick the right tool for the job. that means you must define
what you want to do and know your options. for us here, we don't know what
it is you want to do...and, cannot give any better advice than this.

hth,

me

Re: Need Your Opinions

On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 17:31:49 +0100, LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com
wrote:
> I'm new to the entire web development/database development thing.
>
> I'm just completing the learning process for HTML/CSS. I've discovered
> that I
> want to start a web/database development company sometime in the next 4
> years
> and I'm very dedicated to learning the necessary languages to do so (or
> to
> have a solid foundation).
>
> I know already that I need to get deeper into the PHP's, MYSQL's, and
> other
> database languages.
> My plan is to learn the languages in this order: HTML/CSS, Javascript,
> Actionscript, PHP, MYSQL, ASP or PERL.
>
> I wanted to know your opinions on what languages you think I need to
> have a
> strong foundation. Are the languages that I mentioned above good enough?
> Will
> they be outdated 4-5 years from now? What would the demand be like for
> those
> languages mentioned above 4-5 years from now?

PHP will most likely be alive by than, you say 'ASP', I sincerely hope (if
you want to have something to do with M$) you mean .NET. Perl, despite
it's versatility, seems to be used less and less in websites/online
applications, allthough for shell scripts it's still great. Also look into
JAVA.

> Also, when I say that I want to incorporate database development into my
> company, I also mean real company databases, not just online databases.

The difference being?
--
Rik Wasmus

Re: Need Your Opinions

LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
> Hello.
>
> I'm new to the entire web development/database development thing.
>
> I'm just completing the learning process for HTML/CSS. I've discovered that I
> want to start a web/database development company sometime in the next 4 years
> and I'm very dedicated to learning the necessary languages to do so (or to
> have a solid foundation).
>
> I know already that I need to get deeper into the PHP's, MYSQL's, and other
> database languages.
> My plan is to learn the languages in this order: HTML/CSS, Javascript,
> Actionscript, PHP, MYSQL, ASP or PERL.
>
> I wanted to know your opinions on what languages you think I need to have a
> strong foundation. Are the languages that I mentioned above good enough? Will
> they be outdated 4-5 years from now? What would the demand be like for those
> languages mentioned above 4-5 years from now?
>
> Also, when I say that I want to incorporate database development into my
> company, I also mean real company databases, not just online databases.
>
> So what do you think.
>
IMHO all you *need* is PHP. javascript and Mysql.

Maybe a smattering of C. and scrtipt on a *nix platform as well.

Not sure what the difference is between real company databases and
online database. I am developing a complete back office/SOP/POP/support
ticket/stock control amd primitive accounts system integrated with a
public internet shopping cart thing. Web screens are the way its all
accessed apart from a smattering of command line stuff to set stuff up.
So conceptually there is no difference between 'corporate' and public,
apart from the security levels and the actual forms in use.

Re: Need Your Opinions

Rik Wasmus wrote:

>> Also, when I say that I want to incorporate database development into my
>> company, I also mean real company databases, not just online databases.
>
>The difference being?

I wish I could get technical and give you and answer as to what the
difference would be. But I'm new to this so all I can give you is examples.

For instance. I work for a call center that uses a database system for
inbound/outbound calls, routing calls, and to determine arrangements for
account balances.

This system was developed by some IT company. I want to be that IT company.
The process and the languages involved in developing this system has to be
different and more deeper into computer science than PHP and MYSQL.

So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used for
web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to develop a
database like the one my employer has?

--
Message posted via WebmasterKB.com
http://www.webmasterkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/php-5/200801/1

Re: Need Your Opinions

LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
> Rik Wasmus wrote:
>
>>> Also, when I say that I want to incorporate database development into my
>>> company, I also mean real company databases, not just online databases.
>> The difference being?
>
> I wish I could get technical and give you and answer as to what the
> difference would be. But I'm new to this so all I can give you is examples.
>
> For instance. I work for a call center that uses a database system for
> inbound/outbound calls, routing calls, and to determine arrangements for
> account balances.
>

So? It's a database system. It's a tool. It could be MySQL,
PostGresSQL, Oracle, SyBase, SQL Server, DB2.... take your pick. They
all work.

> This system was developed by some IT company. I want to be that IT company.
> The process and the languages involved in developing this system has to be
> different and more deeper into computer science than PHP and MYSQL.
>

Good luck. You'll need to walk before you can run. No one (in their
right mind, anyway) is going to hire a company with no proven experience.

> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used for
> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to develop a
> database like the one my employer has?
>

Any of these will work. But you'll need experience. I've been
consulting since 1990. But before that I had 13 years of experience with
IBM to show. Even then, the first few jobs were hard. With no
experience, you're not going to get much for jobs. And certainly not
something like you're talking, which is critical to their business.

I'm not trying to scare you off. I just don't want you to have
unrealistic hopes.

Of course, you can put something together and hope to sell it. You
might even make a few bucks. But don't count on it. Maybe 1 in 10,000
of those projects will make the programmer(s) the equivalent of minimum
wage. Come to think of that, it's probably a lot less than 1 in 10,000.

Now if you want to think smaller, there are plenty of options available
- web developer, etc. But even then you need some experience to show
before someone's going to hire you.


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

Re: Need Your Opinions

LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
> Rik Wasmus wrote:
>
>>> Also, when I say that I want to incorporate database development into my
>>> company, I also mean real company databases, not just online databases.
>> The difference being?
>
> I wish I could get technical and give you and answer as to what the
> difference would be. But I'm new to this so all I can give you is examples.
>
> For instance. I work for a call center that uses a database system for
> inbound/outbound calls, routing calls, and to determine arrangements for
> account balances.
>
> This system was developed by some IT company. I want to be that IT company.
> The process and the languages involved in developing this system has to be
> different and more deeper into computer science than PHP and MYSQL.
>
> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used for
> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to develop a
> database like the one my employer has?
>

A Database engine (MySQL, Oracle, Postgress, Progress, etc.) is written
in c/c++. This is a non-trivial exercise. It would take hundreds of
thousands of man hours to develop a reliable storage/query engine. Don't
bother. Use one of the known, tested, trusted reliable engines already
out there. Concentrate on the application. The IT company that produced
the system your employer uses will have done it that way. (Unless they
are using SAP, which does have its own DataBase engine).

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Re: Need Your Opinions

LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
> Rik Wasmus wrote:
>
>>> Also, when I say that I want to incorporate database development into my
>>> company, I also mean real company databases, not just online databases.
>> The difference being?
>
> I wish I could get technical and give you and answer as to what the
> difference would be. But I'm new to this so all I can give you is examples.
>
> For instance. I work for a call center that uses a database system for
> inbound/outbound calls, routing calls, and to determine arrangements for
> account balances.
>
> This system was developed by some IT company. I want to be that IT company.
> The process and the languages involved in developing this system has to be
> different and more deeper into computer science than PHP and MYSQL.
>
> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used for
> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to develop a
> database like the one my employer has?
>

A Database engine (MySQL, Oracle, Postgress, Progress, etc.) is written
in c/c++. This is a non-trivial exercise. It would take hundreds of
thousands of man hours to develop a reliable storage/query engine. Don't
bother. Use one of the known, tested, trusted reliable engines already
out there. Concentrate on the application. The IT company that produced
the system your employer uses will have done it that way. (Unless they
are using SAP, which does have its own DataBase engine).

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----------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Need Your Opinions

LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
> Rik Wasmus wrote:
>
>>> Also, when I say that I want to incorporate database development into my
>>> company, I also mean real company databases, not just online databases.
>> The difference being?
>
> I wish I could get technical and give you and answer as to what the
> difference would be. But I'm new to this so all I can give you is examples.
>
> For instance. I work for a call center that uses a database system for
> inbound/outbound calls, routing calls, and to determine arrangements for
> account balances.
>
> This system was developed by some IT company. I want to be that IT company.
> The process and the languages involved in developing this system has to be
> different and more deeper into computer science than PHP and MYSQL.
>
> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used for
> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to develop a
> database like the one my employer has?
>

A Database engine (MySQL, Oracle, Postgress, Progress, etc.) is written
in c/c++. This is a non-trivial exercise. It would take hundreds of
thousands of man hours to develop a reliable storage/query engine. Don't
bother. Use one of the known, tested, trusted reliable engines already
out there. Concentrate on the application. The IT company that produced
the system your employer uses will have done it that way. (Unless they
are using SAP, which does have its own DataBase engine).

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Need Your Opinions

"LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com" wrote in message
news:7de1c88863251@uwe...
> Rik Wasmus wrote:
>
>>> Also, when I say that I want to incorporate database development into my
>>> company, I also mean real company databases, not just online databases.
>>
>>The difference being?
>
> I wish I could get technical and give you and answer as to what the
> difference would be. But I'm new to this so all I can give you is
> examples.
>
> For instance. I work for a call center that uses a database system for
> inbound/outbound calls, routing calls, and to determine arrangements for
> account balances.

there's the job.

> This system was developed by some IT company. I want to be that IT
> company.
> The process and the languages involved in developing this system has to be
> different and more deeper into computer science than PHP and MYSQL.

the two are mutually exclusive. however, neither can be ruled out. your
assumption about 'has to be different' is completely unfounded. i've built
entire crm solutions using nothing more than. your assumption just means you
have some foregone and equally unfounded misgivings about php and/or mysql.

> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used for
> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to develop
> a
> database like the one my employer has?

who knows what your employer has? who cares really. you need to think in
terms of how a company runs...how it does business. *those* are the
processes. you would be translating them into code. the processes can be
handled by a myriad of languages and db's...not excluding php and/or mysql.

as for 'the job', one of my first IT jobs was as a system's admin of a call
center. we used sco unix and ran an outdated user front-end that resembled a
dos screen. i programmed the branching logic for the prompts the user would
read. it was a propriety language for that software. we also used bash
script to push/pull data to/from us to corporate. we also used vb to
import/export phone lists and analyse and communicate campain results. we
used tcl/tk to monitor our d-mark and phone banks. before i left, we
purchased a window's based product to do all of that...written in (what else
at the time?) vb 5. now, there's call center solutions written entirely in
scripting languages and delivered over the web - which completely takes out
the need to push/pull data from one data source (corporate) to another (a
call center). what are those written in? asp and, you guessed it...php.

again, think in terms of how a business does business...and, don't rule
anything out as an option unless you know that option *very* well. if i knew
you knew better, i'd be cussing you out for saying either php or mysql
couldn't handle this...i just know you don't.

Re: Need Your Opinions

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Re: Need Your Opinions

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Re: Need Your Opinions

"Gary L. Burnore" wrote in message
news:flurcs$84o$1@blackhelicopter.databasix.com...
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:18:41 -0600, "Steve" wrote:
>
>
>>
>>as for 'the job', one of my first IT jobs was as a system's admin of a
>>call
>>center. we used sco unix and ran an outdated user front-end that resembled
>>a
>>dos screen. i programmed the branching logic for the prompts the user
>>would
>>read.
>
> Ah yes, the old smc cobol call tree. I remember that stuff on SCO.

well, our stuff wasn't quite *that* old. :^)

the language was less cobol and more like bash. it still sucked ass compared
to what's out there today.

> If call victim answers first question with A, do Ask N next.

right...but those were the easy branches. we had to contrive loops and parse
comments and all kinds of crap. good experience. hated doing it though.

> Hahaha. We may actually know each other and not know it. :)

possibly! i didn't get out much. i was there most of the time keeping the
damn place physically running. the best thing about that job experience is
that i understood the architecture that drove the conditional branching.
from that, i've made several manufacturing routing systems (controlling the
build-up of a product through workstations...and telling whether they
should/not be there or what the next step was)...i even recently signed a
contract to build a customer survey system for an automotive manufacturer -
of which i'm sure you've heard. still, that job blew like a stiff breeze in
alaska in january!

Re: Need Your Opinions

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
news:oe-dnT1NX4Ridx_anZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
>> Rik Wasmus wrote:
>>
>>>> Also, when I say that I want to incorporate database development into
>>>> my
>>>> company, I also mean real company databases, not just online databases.
>>> The difference being?
>>
>> I wish I could get technical and give you and answer as to what the
>> difference would be. But I'm new to this so all I can give you is
>> examples.
>>
>> For instance. I work for a call center that uses a database system for
>> inbound/outbound calls, routing calls, and to determine arrangements for
>> account balances.
>
> So? It's a database system. It's a tool. It could be MySQL,
> PostGresSQL, Oracle, SyBase, SQL Server, DB2.... take your pick. They all
> work.
>
>> This system was developed by some IT company. I want to be that IT
>> company.
>> The process and the languages involved in developing this system has to
>> be
>> different and more deeper into computer science than PHP and MYSQL.
>
> Good luck. You'll need to walk before you can run. No one (in their
> right mind, anyway) is going to hire a company with no proven experience.
>
>> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used for
>> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to develop
>> a
>> database like the one my employer has?
>>
>
> Any of these will work. But you'll need experience. I've been consulting
> since 1990. But before that I had 13 years of experience with IBM to show.
> Even then, the first few jobs were hard. With no experience, you're not
> going to get much for jobs. And certainly not something like you're
> talking, which is critical to their business.
>
> I'm not trying to scare you off. I just don't want you to have
> unrealistic hopes.
>
> Of course, you can put something together and hope to sell it. You might
> even make a few bucks. But don't count on it. Maybe 1 in 10,000 of those
> projects will make the programmer(s) the equivalent of minimum wage. Come
> to think of that, it's probably a lot less than 1 in 10,000.

quantifing with real numbers would be nice.

a smart developer pays attention to the needs of his clients not just to
give them what they want, but to learn how they do business and what their
current software (or system) lacks. said smart developer would then have a
relationship with his first customer already when said smart developer
unveiled his system that had everything that customer wanted...but didn't
have to ask for. there's his first reference too. i've done that three times
in my career and have bought as many homes with the proceeds. you get hired
to do one thing and you should always walk away knowing where more can be
done. that's not only smart, it's how consultants survive...good ones
anyway.

said smart developer would have made sure to read his contract very
carefully and negotiate his IP beforehand too.

as it is, whatever ratio you feel like creating, jerry, the higher number,
the better. it follows closely the same percentage of 'smart developers'. :)

1 in 10K is close enough to get the point across.

Re: Need Your Opinions

On Jan 7, 6:31 pm, "LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com"
wrote:
> Hello.
>
> I'm new to the entire web development/database development thing.
>
> I'm just completing the learning process for HTML/CSS. I've discovered that I
> want to start a web/database development company sometime in the next 4 years
> and I'm very dedicated to learning the necessary languages to do so (or to
> have a solid foundation).
>
> I know already that I need to get deeper into the PHP's, MYSQL's, and other
> database languages.
> My plan is to learn the languages in this order: HTML/CSS, Javascript,
> Actionscript, PHP, MYSQL, ASP or PERL.
>
> I wanted to know your opinions on what languages you think I need to have a
> strong foundation. Are the languages that I mentioned above good enough? Will
> they be outdated 4-5 years from now? What would the demand be like for those
> languages mentioned above 4-5 years from now?
>
> Also, when I say that I want to incorporate database development into my
> company, I also mean real company databases, not just online databases.
>
> So what do you think.
>
> --
> Message posted viahttp://www.webmasterkb.com

If you want to be a Web Developer follow this path: C (with PHP) ->
C#(GUI+ASP) -> Java

Re: Need Your Opinions

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

>Good luck. You'll need to walk before you can run. No one (in their
>right mind, anyway) is going to hire a company with no proven experience.
>
>> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used for
>> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to develop a
>> database like the one my employer has?
>
>Any of these will work. But you'll need experience. I've been
>consulting since 1990. But before that I had 13 years of experience with
>IBM to show. Even then, the first few jobs were hard. With no
>experience, you're not going to get much for jobs. And certainly not
>something like you're talking, which is critical to their business.
>
>I'm not trying to scare you off. I just don't want you to have
>unrealistic hopes.

Thanks for your expertise and opinions.

I realize that I have to crawl before I walk. I have a vision for my future
and my motivation and vision is what is going to carry me to my goals.

Honestly, not to overlook your credentials and years of expertise, but it was
your choice to spend 13 years with IBM before you began consulting. Your
companies success has to do with your team, vision, connections, and ability
to sell your services. The first and the latter would be the most important...
team and sales. I've known web/database developers that started off
consulting with smaller to mid range companies and evolved to working with
larger companies within 5-7 years. And I personally don't like the mindset
that you have to spend 10-13 years of your life working for someone before
you can branch out and establish your own company. That mindset is what they
teach you in college and it sucks.

It is definitely possible for me to do the same immediately after building a
foundation in Computer Science. It's all about how quickly you apply it to
your goals.

But anyhow, thanks for the throwing the languages at me, I will definitely
look into those.

--
Message posted via WebmasterKB.com
http://www.webmasterkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/php-5/200801/1

Re: Need Your Opinions

The above message is for Jerry Stuckle.

--
Message posted via WebmasterKB.com
http://www.webmasterkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/php-5/200801/1

Re: Need Your Opinions

LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>
>> Good luck. You'll need to walk before you can run. No one (in their
>> right mind, anyway) is going to hire a company with no proven experience.
>>
>>> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used for
>>> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to develop a
>>> database like the one my employer has?
>> Any of these will work. But you'll need experience. I've been
>> consulting since 1990. But before that I had 13 years of experience with
>> IBM to show. Even then, the first few jobs were hard. With no
>> experience, you're not going to get much for jobs. And certainly not
>> something like you're talking, which is critical to their business.
>>
>> I'm not trying to scare you off. I just don't want you to have
>> unrealistic hopes.
>
> Thanks for your expertise and opinions.
>
> I realize that I have to crawl before I walk. I have a vision for my future
> and my motivation and vision is what is going to carry me to my goals.
>
> Honestly, not to overlook your credentials and years of expertise, but it was
> your choice to spend 13 years with IBM before you began consulting. Your
> companies success has to do with your team, vision, connections, and ability
> to sell your services. The first and the latter would be the most important...
> team and sales. I've known web/database developers that started off
> consulting with smaller to mid range companies and evolved to working with
> larger companies within 5-7 years. And I personally don't like the mindset
> that you have to spend 10-13 years of your life working for someone before
> you can branch out and establish your own company. That mindset is what they
> teach you in college and it sucks.
>
In my case it was my growing conviction, and the attitude that went with
it, that I could do their jobs better than they could do mine..that
eventually led me to prove it.

The 10-13 years is psychological, not skill/experience based. YMMV. Go
for it.



> It is definitely possible for me to do the same immediately after building a
> foundation in Computer Science. It's all about how quickly you apply it to
> your goals.
>

I would recommend a few more years of working for others just to get the
feel of commercial environments, and with respect, to forget everything
you learned in computer science, and learn to program a computer instead ;-)

Of all the useless employees I have had, CompSci grads are the worst.
They think they know better, but they don't. Best were maths grads,
(always found the simplest way to do things) second best were engineers,
(stopped when it worked, not when it was optimal== cheaper)
third best were scientists (generally happy NOT to be doing science,
and be doing something vaguely technical and useful).



> But anyhow, thanks for the throwing the languages at me, I will definitely
> look into those.
>

Get a linux box, put apache 2, Mysql, and php 5 on it, and a text
editor, and start writing your own sites. Pick something simple and
useful. Your knowledge will naturally expand in the most relevant
direction to what you want to do.

Re: Need Your Opinions

Steve wrote:
> if i knew
>you knew better, i'd be cussing you out for saying either php or mysql
>couldn't handle this...i just know you don't.

LOL!!

Thanks man.

That's why I posted this question. I just need to know what and what not to
learn. The above message was great because you provided an example that shows
if you don't carefully plan your learning process, you can waist time trying
to find a solution, using multiple languages, that one language can solve.

Appreciate it.

--
Message posted via WebmasterKB.com
http://www.webmasterkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/php-5/200801/1

Re: Need Your Opinions

LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>
>> Good luck. You'll need to walk before you can run. No one (in their
>> right mind, anyway) is going to hire a company with no proven experience.
>>
>>> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used for
>>> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to develop a
>>> database like the one my employer has?
>> Any of these will work. But you'll need experience. I've been
>> consulting since 1990. But before that I had 13 years of experience with
>> IBM to show. Even then, the first few jobs were hard. With no
>> experience, you're not going to get much for jobs. And certainly not
>> something like you're talking, which is critical to their business.
>>
>> I'm not trying to scare you off. I just don't want you to have
>> unrealistic hopes.
>
> Thanks for your expertise and opinions.
>
> I realize that I have to crawl before I walk. I have a vision for my future
> and my motivation and vision is what is going to carry me to my goals.
>
> Honestly, not to overlook your credentials and years of expertise, but it was
> your choice to spend 13 years with IBM before you began consulting. Your
> companies success has to do with your team, vision, connections, and ability
> to sell your services. The first and the latter would be the most important...
> team and sales. I've known web/database developers that started off
> consulting with smaller to mid range companies and evolved to working with
> larger companies within 5-7 years. And I personally don't like the mindset
> that you have to spend 10-13 years of your life working for someone before
> you can branch out and establish your own company. That mindset is what they
> teach you in college and it sucks.
>

That could be true. But in the consulting business, experience rules.
For instance, all else being the same, would you rather take your car to
someone with 10 years of experience, or someone who studied auto manuals
in his spare time and just opened a shop? I suspect it would be the
experienced guy.

Now, what if the experienced guy charged $75/hr. and the new guy $50/hr?
You might be tempted to try the new guy. But what if your vehicle is
critical to your work - and your job depends on it? Would you still be
willing to take a chance on the new guy? Probably less likely. Some
things are worth the extra money.

> It is definitely possible for me to do the same immediately after building a
> foundation in Computer Science. It's all about how quickly you apply it to
> your goals.
>

That's a lofty goal, and I'm not at all trying to throw water on it.
But you have to also realize you have competition out there - a lot of
it. And they have something you don't have - experience and a proven
track record. It counts even more in consulting than auto repair.

Now, that's not saying you can't get started. For instance, I know some
web developers who basically got a start with little experience. But
web development is a little different, and people are more willing to
take a chance. Most sites are not very expensive to build, and the
client isn't out that much.

But even then it's hard to get started. You can start with some
non-profit organizations, for instance, and build a portfolio. Now you
have something to show prospective clients.

However, this has gotten way off topic for c.l.p. I recommend you get
some suggestions from alt.computer.consultants.moderated. Not a very
active group, but several experienced consultants monitor it.

> But anyhow, thanks for the throwing the languages at me, I will definitely
> look into those.
>


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

Re: Need Your Opinions

LayneMitch wrote:
>The above message is for Jerry Stuckle.

Oh and one other thing...Jerry

Selling your services is simple....you start off small, sell hard, build
clientele, sell harder, create a portfolio of the different things your team
can do and what else?........sell.

When you look up, you'll have a portfolio of clients and an excess of funds
to invest in everything your company needs to grow (only if you aren't
spending it foolishly). Once you've reach the point where your clientele is
starting to outgrow your resources, it's time for an investor (who will feel
very comfortable in investing when demand is growing at a faster rate than
supply).

Damn... I can't wait until I'm ready.

--
Message posted via http://www.webmasterkb.com

Re: Need Your Opinions

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
news:MOednTchgqpVHR7anZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
>> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>
>>> Good luck. You'll need to walk before you can run. No one (in their
>>> right mind, anyway) is going to hire a company with no proven
>>> experience.
>>>
>>>> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used for
>>>> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to
>>>> develop a
>>>> database like the one my employer has?
>>> Any of these will work. But you'll need experience. I've been
>>> consulting since 1990. But before that I had 13 years of experience with
>>> IBM to show. Even then, the first few jobs were hard. With no
>>> experience, you're not going to get much for jobs. And certainly not
>>> something like you're talking, which is critical to their business.
>>>
>>> I'm not trying to scare you off. I just don't want you to have
>>> unrealistic hopes.
>>
>> Thanks for your expertise and opinions.
>>
>> I realize that I have to crawl before I walk. I have a vision for my
>> future
>> and my motivation and vision is what is going to carry me to my goals.
>> Honestly, not to overlook your credentials and years of expertise, but it
>> was
>> your choice to spend 13 years with IBM before you began consulting. Your
>> companies success has to do with your team, vision, connections, and
>> ability
>> to sell your services. The first and the latter would be the most
>> important...
>> team and sales. I've known web/database developers that started off
>> consulting with smaller to mid range companies and evolved to working
>> with
>> larger companies within 5-7 years. And I personally don't like the
>> mindset
>> that you have to spend 10-13 years of your life working for someone
>> before
>> you can branch out and establish your own company. That mindset is what
>> they
>> teach you in college and it sucks.
>
> That could be true. But in the consulting business, experience rules. For
> instance, all else being the same, would you rather take your car to
> someone with 10 years of experience, or someone who studied auto manuals
> in his spare time and just opened a shop? I suspect it would be the
> experienced guy.
>
> Now, what if the experienced guy charged $75/hr. and the new guy $50/hr?
> You might be tempted to try the new guy. But what if your vehicle is
> critical to your work - and your job depends on it? Would you still be
> willing to take a chance on the new guy? Probably less likely. Some
> things are worth the extra money.

that may make sense, jerry...if it worked that way. generally, if the bids
are all within close proximity, the lower priced bidder wins out. same with
cars even then. here's the kicker...if you have good social skills and half
a brain, you can provide different bidding structures. you either talk your
way in (and then deliver), or your ability to negotiate in business terms
can outweigh the bid itself. to do that, you start with the old
axiom...time, expense, and quality - you can only have two of those at the
same time and the one you don't pick...that's the one that will suffer.,
i.e. a quality product developed in short order will cost a lot. that,
ultimately, dictates hiring decisions.

the key is understanding which of those two combinations you can deliver on
consistently and then going after the jobs under those constraints. either
bid that per hour or per project or however.

theory is great. the car analogy just doesn't work in the real world. if it
does in yours, you've been missing a lot of opportunity needlessly.

>> It is definitely possible for me to do the same immediately after
>> building a
>> foundation in Computer Science. It's all about how quickly you apply it
>> to
>> your goals.
>
> That's a lofty goal, and I'm not at all trying to throw water on it. But
> you have to also realize you have competition out there - a lot of it.
> And they have something you don't have - experience and a proven track
> record. It counts even more in consulting than auto repair.

people are hired if they seem intelligent, listen, and fit in. yours is a
very traditional view. i'd contend that it counts LESS in consulting than
auto repair since a car has known parts and well defined systems that are
fixed in a straightforward fashion. programming is rarely if ever, that.

think of it this way...if i have to fight an attacker who is bigger than i,
quicker, and even prettier, i'm not going to win by trying to beat his
strengths. less experienced people should not compete on even terms either.
people are people and not computers. i can talk my way into any job i want.
i choose those that will be able to deliver on...slowly building up my res.
your social skills far outweigh your technical skills every time you get
interviewed...and, at every stage of your career.

you seem to leave that out.

> Now, that's not saying you can't get started. For instance, I know some
> web developers who basically got a start with little experience. But web
> development is a little different, and people are more willing to take a
> chance. Most sites are not very expensive to build, and the client isn't
> out that much.

i have hired at least 3 people in as many years to maintain and enhance our
corporate systems. they are mission critical applications. none of those 3
had *any* programming experience. they were intelligent, they listened, and
they fit in. they also had a huge desire to do great things. those turn out
to be your most loyal and creative developers on your team.

> But even then it's hard to get started. You can start with some
> non-profit organizations, for instance, and build a portfolio. Now you
> have something to show prospective clients.

that's a complete waste of time! bollocks. build a portfolio with paying
customers...unless you just *want* to give your time away.

> However, this has gotten way off topic for c.l.p. I recommend you get
> some suggestions from alt.computer.consultants.moderated. Not a very
> active group, but several experienced consultants monitor it.

that seems the most sound advice given yet.

Re: Need Your Opinions

"LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com" wrote in message
news:7de77b72295a0@uwe...
> Steve wrote:
>> if i knew
>>you knew better, i'd be cussing you out for saying either php or mysql
>>couldn't handle this...i just know you don't.
>
> LOL!!
>
> Thanks man.
>
> That's why I posted this question. I just need to know what and what not
> to
> learn. The above message was great because you provided an example that
> shows
> if you don't carefully plan your learning process, you can waist time
> trying
> to find a solution, using multiple languages, that one language can solve.
>
> Appreciate it.

not a problem at all. i wiss you the best. just remember, social skills will
get you a job even when experience is lacking...get the jobs that you can
deliver on but that are also going to stretch your skill set.

hth,

me

Re: Need Your Opinions

"Betikci Boris" wrote in message
news:c3a03a5f-1a47-4bd8-8371-7e451af5f27b@e23g2000prf.google groups.com...
> On Jan 7, 6:31 pm, "LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com"
> wrote:
>> Hello.
>>
>> I'm new to the entire web development/database development thing.
>>
>> I'm just completing the learning process for HTML/CSS. I've discovered
>> that I
>> want to start a web/database development company sometime in the next 4
>> years
>> and I'm very dedicated to learning the necessary languages to do so (or
>> to
>> have a solid foundation).
>>
>> I know already that I need to get deeper into the PHP's, MYSQL's, and
>> other
>> database languages.
>> My plan is to learn the languages in this order: HTML/CSS, Javascript,
>> Actionscript, PHP, MYSQL, ASP or PERL.
>>
>> I wanted to know your opinions on what languages you think I need to have
>> a
>> strong foundation. Are the languages that I mentioned above good enough?
>> Will
>> they be outdated 4-5 years from now? What would the demand be like for
>> those
>> languages mentioned above 4-5 years from now?
>>
>> Also, when I say that I want to incorporate database development into my
>> company, I also mean real company databases, not just online databases.
>>
>> So what do you think.
>>
>> --
>> Message posted viahttp://www.webmasterkb.com
>
> If you want to be a Web Developer follow this path: C (with PHP) ->
> C#(GUI+ASP) -> Java

lol !!! so THAT'S the formula. damnit! i'm going to have to quit doing web
development and re-do *my* formula...so i can get hired again as a web
developer. roflmao!

Re: Need Your Opinions

Steve wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
> news:MOednTchgqpVHR7anZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
>>> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good luck. You'll need to walk before you can run. No one (in their
>>>> right mind, anyway) is going to hire a company with no proven
>>>> experience.
>>>>
>>>>> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used for
>>>>> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to
>>>>> develop a
>>>>> database like the one my employer has?
>>>> Any of these will work. But you'll need experience. I've been
>>>> consulting since 1990. But before that I had 13 years of experience with
>>>> IBM to show. Even then, the first few jobs were hard. With no
>>>> experience, you're not going to get much for jobs. And certainly not
>>>> something like you're talking, which is critical to their business.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not trying to scare you off. I just don't want you to have
>>>> unrealistic hopes.
>>> Thanks for your expertise and opinions.
>>>
>>> I realize that I have to crawl before I walk. I have a vision for my
>>> future
>>> and my motivation and vision is what is going to carry me to my goals.
>>> Honestly, not to overlook your credentials and years of expertise, but it
>>> was
>>> your choice to spend 13 years with IBM before you began consulting. Your
>>> companies success has to do with your team, vision, connections, and
>>> ability
>>> to sell your services. The first and the latter would be the most
>>> important...
>>> team and sales. I've known web/database developers that started off
>>> consulting with smaller to mid range companies and evolved to working
>>> with
>>> larger companies within 5-7 years. And I personally don't like the
>>> mindset
>>> that you have to spend 10-13 years of your life working for someone
>>> before
>>> you can branch out and establish your own company. That mindset is what
>>> they
>>> teach you in college and it sucks.
>> That could be true. But in the consulting business, experience rules. For
>> instance, all else being the same, would you rather take your car to
>> someone with 10 years of experience, or someone who studied auto manuals
>> in his spare time and just opened a shop? I suspect it would be the
>> experienced guy.
>>
>> Now, what if the experienced guy charged $75/hr. and the new guy $50/hr?
>> You might be tempted to try the new guy. But what if your vehicle is
>> critical to your work - and your job depends on it? Would you still be
>> willing to take a chance on the new guy? Probably less likely. Some
>> things are worth the extra money.
>
> that may make sense, jerry...if it worked that way. generally, if the bids
> are all within close proximity, the lower priced bidder wins out. same with
> cars even then. here's the kicker...if you have good social skills and half
> a brain, you can provide different bidding structures. you either talk your
> way in (and then deliver), or your ability to negotiate in business terms
> can outweigh the bid itself. to do that, you start with the old
> axiom...time, expense, and quality - you can only have two of those at the
> same time and the one you don't pick...that's the one that will suffer.,
> i.e. a quality product developed in short order will cost a lot. that,
> ultimately, dictates hiring decisions.
>

Not at all. Lowest price only works when you're doing government
contracts, where agencies are mandated to take the lowest bid (from
qualified companies).

In the real world, price is not as important as ability. And you called
it right there - time, expense and quality. When companies have to pick
two, expense loses out (except for the cheapskates). Otherwise, big
consulting firms wouldn't be able to farm out recent college grads at
$350/hr.


> the key is understanding which of those two combinations you can deliver on
> consistently and then going after the jobs under those constraints. either
> bid that per hour or per project or however.
>

Yep, and clients want to see a proven track record of quality and
on-time delivery.

> theory is great. the car analogy just doesn't work in the real world. if it
> does in yours, you've been missing a lot of opportunity needlessly.
>

It's perfectly accurate in the real world. I've won some contracts in
the past not because I had the lowest price - but I could give them the
best quality. Sure, I've lost some because I wasn't the cheapest. But
I learned very early in the consulting game not to bid on price. Before
I learned that, I found I was spending a lot more time on those clients
who were only interested in price than I should have been - lowering my
bottom line. Once I stopped competing on price, my income increased.

>>> It is definitely possible for me to do the same immediately after
>>> building a
>>> foundation in Computer Science. It's all about how quickly you apply it
>>> to
>>> your goals.
>> That's a lofty goal, and I'm not at all trying to throw water on it. But
>> you have to also realize you have competition out there - a lot of it.
>> And they have something you don't have - experience and a proven track
>> record. It counts even more in consulting than auto repair.
>
> people are hired if they seem intelligent, listen, and fit in. yours is a
> very traditional view. i'd contend that it counts LESS in consulting than
> auto repair since a car has known parts and well defined systems that are
> fixed in a straightforward fashion. programming is rarely if ever, that.
>

Which means it's even more important to have that proven track record.

> think of it this way...if i have to fight an attacker who is bigger than i,
> quicker, and even prettier, i'm not going to win by trying to beat his
> strengths. less experienced people should not compete on even terms either.
> people are people and not computers. i can talk my way into any job i want.
> i choose those that will be able to deliver on...slowly building up my res.
> your social skills far outweigh your technical skills every time you get
> interviewed...and, at every stage of your career.
>
> you seem to leave that out.
>

True and false. You have to have the social skills, I do admit. But
you've got to get in the door first. And without any experience to
show, good clients won't give you the time of day.

>> Now, that's not saying you can't get started. For instance, I know some
>> web developers who basically got a start with little experience. But web
>> development is a little different, and people are more willing to take a
>> chance. Most sites are not very expensive to build, and the client isn't
>> out that much.
>
> i have hired at least 3 people in as many years to maintain and enhance our
> corporate systems. they are mission critical applications. none of those 3
> had *any* programming experience. they were intelligent, they listened, and
> they fit in. they also had a huge desire to do great things. those turn out
> to be your most loyal and creative developers on your team.
>

You're talking a corporate environment, not consulting. The two are
completely different worlds. Clients will not hire consultants with no
programming experience for mission critical systems.

You are paying someone to learn. They are paying someone to perform.
All the difference in the world.

>> But even then it's hard to get started. You can start with some
>> non-profit organizations, for instance, and build a portfolio. Now you
>> have something to show prospective clients.
>
> that's a complete waste of time! bollocks. build a portfolio with paying
> customers...unless you just *want* to give your time away.
>

Not at all. That's how I got started many years ago - while I was
scratching out customers, I did volunteer work. It got me glowing
recommendations which I was able to carry on to bigger and better things.

Sure, the work at IBM helped - it showed I had experience as a
programmer. But the volunteer work showed I could carry that over into
a consulting role, outside the corporate environment.

Many consultants I know started the same way.

>> However, this has gotten way off topic for c.l.p. I recommend you get
>> some suggestions from alt.computer.consultants.moderated. Not a very
>> active group, but several experienced consultants monitor it.
>
> that seems the most sound advice given yet.
>
>
>


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

Re: Need Your Opinions

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
news:2qOdnc8YBax6JR7anZ2dnUVZ_ryqnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Steve wrote:
>> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
>> news:MOednTchgqpVHR7anZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
>>>> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Good luck. You'll need to walk before you can run. No one (in their
>>>>> right mind, anyway) is going to hire a company with no proven
>>>>> experience.
>>>>>
>>>>>> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to
>>>>>> develop a
>>>>>> database like the one my employer has?
>>>>> Any of these will work. But you'll need experience. I've been
>>>>> consulting since 1990. But before that I had 13 years of experience
>>>>> with IBM to show. Even then, the first few jobs were hard. With no
>>>>> experience, you're not going to get much for jobs. And certainly not
>>>>> something like you're talking, which is critical to their business.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not trying to scare you off. I just don't want you to have
>>>>> unrealistic hopes.
>>>> Thanks for your expertise and opinions.
>>>>
>>>> I realize that I have to crawl before I walk. I have a vision for my
>>>> future
>>>> and my motivation and vision is what is going to carry me to my goals.
>>>> Honestly, not to overlook your credentials and years of expertise, but
>>>> it was
>>>> your choice to spend 13 years with IBM before you began consulting.
>>>> Your
>>>> companies success has to do with your team, vision, connections, and
>>>> ability
>>>> to sell your services. The first and the latter would be the most
>>>> important...
>>>> team and sales. I've known web/database developers that started off
>>>> consulting with smaller to mid range companies and evolved to working
>>>> with
>>>> larger companies within 5-7 years. And I personally don't like the
>>>> mindset
>>>> that you have to spend 10-13 years of your life working for someone
>>>> before
>>>> you can branch out and establish your own company. That mindset is what
>>>> they
>>>> teach you in college and it sucks.
>>> That could be true. But in the consulting business, experience rules.
>>> For instance, all else being the same, would you rather take your car to
>>> someone with 10 years of experience, or someone who studied auto manuals
>>> in his spare time and just opened a shop? I suspect it would be the
>>> experienced guy.
>>>
>>> Now, what if the experienced guy charged $75/hr. and the new guy $50/hr?
>>> You might be tempted to try the new guy. But what if your vehicle is
>>> critical to your work - and your job depends on it? Would you still be
>>> willing to take a chance on the new guy? Probably less likely. Some
>>> things are worth the extra money.
>>
>> that may make sense, jerry...if it worked that way. generally, if the
>> bids are all within close proximity, the lower priced bidder wins out.
>> same with cars even then. here's the kicker...if you have good social
>> skills and half a brain, you can provide different bidding structures.
>> you either talk your way in (and then deliver), or your ability to
>> negotiate in business terms can outweigh the bid itself. to do that, you
>> start with the old axiom...time, expense, and quality - you can only have
>> two of those at the same time and the one you don't pick...that's the one
>> that will suffer., i.e. a quality product developed in short order will
>> cost a lot. that, ultimately, dictates hiring decisions.
>>
>
> Not at all. Lowest price only works when you're doing government
> contracts, where agencies are mandated to take the lowest bid (from
> qualified companies).
>
> In the real world, price is not as important as ability. And you called
> it right there - time, expense and quality. When companies have to pick
> two, expense loses out (except for the cheapskates). Otherwise, big
> consulting firms wouldn't be able to farm out recent college grads at
> $350/hr.
>
>
>> the key is understanding which of those two combinations you can deliver
>> on consistently and then going after the jobs under those constraints.
>> either bid that per hour or per project or however.
>>
>
> Yep, and clients want to see a proven track record of quality and on-time
> delivery.
>
>> theory is great. the car analogy just doesn't work in the real world. if
>> it does in yours, you've been missing a lot of opportunity needlessly.
>>
>
> It's perfectly accurate in the real world. I've won some contracts in the
> past not because I had the lowest price - but I could give them the best
> quality. Sure, I've lost some because I wasn't the cheapest. But I
> learned very early in the consulting game not to bid on price. Before I
> learned that, I found I was spending a lot more time on those clients who
> were only interested in price than I should have been - lowering my bottom
> line. Once I stopped competing on price, my income increased.

jerry, what i'm saying is that you're only looking at the quality factor.
you're leaving out time and cost. you can shop in the quality market...the
op can't. there are far more jobs available than you think where employers
want quality and are willing to sacrifice time-to-market if their aim is
two-fold...the actual product, and creating a loyal employee that is
moldable. you may even be hired because of your familiarity with a business
process (engineering, accounting, etc.) often, especially when prototyping,
you want something out there that works...and you needed it yesturday. in
both of those situations, the bid is terciary.


>>>> It is definitely possible for me to do the same immediately after
>>>> building a
>>>> foundation in Computer Science. It's all about how quickly you apply it
>>>> to
>>>> your goals.
>>> That's a lofty goal, and I'm not at all trying to throw water on it. But
>>> you have to also realize you have competition out there - a lot of it.
>>> And they have something you don't have - experience and a proven track
>>> record. It counts even more in consulting than auto repair.
>>
>> people are hired if they seem intelligent, listen, and fit in. yours is a
>> very traditional view. i'd contend that it counts LESS in consulting than
>> auto repair since a car has known parts and well defined systems that are
>> fixed in a straightforward fashion. programming is rarely if ever, that.
>>
>
> Which means it's even more important to have that proven track record.

no, it means one should convey intelligence, listen, and fit in.

>> think of it this way...if i have to fight an attacker who is bigger than
>> i, quicker, and even prettier, i'm not going to win by trying to beat his
>> strengths. less experienced people should not compete on even terms
>> either. people are people and not computers. i can talk my way into any
>> job i want. i choose those that will be able to deliver on...slowly
>> building up my res. your social skills far outweigh your technical skills
>> every time you get interviewed...and, at every stage of your career.
>>
>> you seem to leave that out.
>>
>
> True and false. You have to have the social skills, I do admit. But
> you've got to get in the door first. And without any experience to show,
> good clients won't give you the time of day.

that's a relative truth and relative false. that may be your experience, but
it isn't mine - as a consultant and an employer. you seem to think there's
only one way to have your nike keep the door open. your technicals have
little to do with selling yourself. and selling has little to do with
showing some information on a piece of paper. if that were all there were to
it, there would be very little need for so many commercials or pr reps and
the like. a products 'worth' would just be plastered on it. hell, one well
known company's foot-in-the-door into a competative nich was by specifically
saying that "they were #2...so they worked harder" (paraphrased). have a
google on that.

everyone walks into an interview advantaged and disadvantaged in some area.
the one who gets the job sells himself well and "overcomes objections" - a
commonly used marketing term.

shit, i even had a friend in college who got a nursing job that required
*specific* experience. he was a lit major.

again, your experience is not mine. my eyes tell me that you're only using
one edge of a triangle to open a door...there are two more. if you haven't
tried them, your revenues - as good as you think they are - are not at their
full earning capacity.

>>> Now, that's not saying you can't get started. For instance, I know some
>>> web developers who basically got a start with little experience. But
>>> web development is a little different, and people are more willing to
>>> take a chance. Most sites are not very expensive to build, and the
>>> client isn't out that much.
>>
>> i have hired at least 3 people in as many years to maintain and enhance
>> our corporate systems. they are mission critical applications. none of
>> those 3 had *any* programming experience. they were intelligent, they
>> listened, and they fit in. they also had a huge desire to do great
>> things. those turn out to be your most loyal and creative developers on
>> your team.
>>
>
> You're talking a corporate environment, not consulting. The two are
> completely different worlds. Clients will not hire consultants with no
> programming experience for mission critical systems.

duh! i was the hiring manager in a corporation (still am) and i have hired 3
people (consultants) in 3 years with NO experience in programming with *any*
language. that is the whole point, jerry! and yes, they worked on my mission
critical applications.

remember shelly? he used to post here? guess for whom he works now? are his
skill sets in line with what i need? i think almost. however, i found him
intelligent, a good listener, and he fits in. sorry, i'm a client and i've
been doing *exactly* what you just said clients don't do. and my company is
a $4B (that's b, as in billion) dollar fortune 50.

> You are paying someone to learn. They are paying someone to perform. All
> the difference in the world.

i pay for both. again, it depends on what *i* need. you presuming to think i
only need one thing limits your opportunities to work for me...simply
because you think i'm only after one thing. do you really think your wife
married you because you were attractive? trolling>

>>> But even then it's hard to get started. You can start with some
>>> non-profit organizations, for instance, and build a portfolio. Now you
>>> have something to show prospective clients.
>>
>> that's a complete waste of time! bollocks. build a portfolio with paying
>> customers...unless you just *want* to give your time away.
>>
>
> Not at all. That's how I got started many years ago - while I was
> scratching out customers, I did volunteer work. It got me glowing
> recommendations which I was able to carry on to bigger and better things.

i tell you what gets more people more jobs than that. connections. everyone
of us has them, not all of us use them...or know how to with any kind of
diplomacy. the last $40K i made was simply because my bosses, bosses, boss
remembered i'd consulted. he had a friend from his church that needed some
work done. that's how simple it is. make friends who are willing to vouch
for you. i volunteer for the priciple of volunteering - something needs
doing and few are willing to do it. anything else is a gift with strings
attached as far as i'm concerned. but, as an in-road to employment? utter
waste of time.

> Sure, the work at IBM helped - it showed I had experience as a programmer.
> But the volunteer work showed I could carry that over into a consulting
> role, outside the corporate environment.

i'm not sure how you see consulting as outside of the corporate environment.

> Many consultants I know started the same way.

but make of a very small percentage of those i come across...as a hiring
manager. as a consultant myself, if someone asks if i can do something or if
something can be done, the answer is always *yes*. unequivically. my
reputation weighs into their reliance on the answer more than my previous
work. and, when it comes down to it, i'd want someone working to sustain
their reputation on my mission critical stuff rather than someone less
committed to the success of the outcome...someone with paper-backing.

there's more than one way to skin a cat...i happen to believe in using many
knives.

Re: Need Your Opinions

Steve wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
> news:2qOdnc8YBax6JR7anZ2dnUVZ_ryqnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Steve wrote:
>>> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
>>> news:MOednTchgqpVHR7anZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>> LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
>>>>> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Good luck. You'll need to walk before you can run. No one (in their
>>>>>> right mind, anyway) is going to hire a company with no proven
>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to
>>>>>>> develop a
>>>>>>> database like the one my employer has?
>>>>>> Any of these will work. But you'll need experience. I've been
>>>>>> consulting since 1990. But before that I had 13 years of experience
>>>>>> with IBM to show. Even then, the first few jobs were hard. With no
>>>>>> experience, you're not going to get much for jobs. And certainly not
>>>>>> something like you're talking, which is critical to their business.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not trying to scare you off. I just don't want you to have
>>>>>> unrealistic hopes.
>>>>> Thanks for your expertise and opinions.
>>>>>
>>>>> I realize that I have to crawl before I walk. I have a vision for my
>>>>> future
>>>>> and my motivation and vision is what is going to carry me to my goals.
>>>>> Honestly, not to overlook your credentials and years of expertise, but
>>>>> it was
>>>>> your choice to spend 13 years with IBM before you began consulting.
>>>>> Your
>>>>> companies success has to do with your team, vision, connections, and
>>>>> ability
>>>>> to sell your services. The first and the latter would be the most
>>>>> important...
>>>>> team and sales. I've known web/database developers that started off
>>>>> consulting with smaller to mid range companies and evolved to working
>>>>> with
>>>>> larger companies within 5-7 years. And I personally don't like the
>>>>> mindset
>>>>> that you have to spend 10-13 years of your life working for someone
>>>>> before
>>>>> you can branch out and establish your own company. That mindset is what
>>>>> they
>>>>> teach you in college and it sucks.
>>>> That could be true. But in the consulting business, experience rules.
>>>> For instance, all else being the same, would you rather take your car to
>>>> someone with 10 years of experience, or someone who studied auto manuals
>>>> in his spare time and just opened a shop? I suspect it would be the
>>>> experienced guy.
>>>>
>>>> Now, what if the experienced guy charged $75/hr. and the new guy $50/hr?
>>>> You might be tempted to try the new guy. But what if your vehicle is
>>>> critical to your work - and your job depends on it? Would you still be
>>>> willing to take a chance on the new guy? Probably less likely. Some
>>>> things are worth the extra money.
>>> that may make sense, jerry...if it worked that way. generally, if the
>>> bids are all within close proximity, the lower priced bidder wins out.
>>> same with cars even then. here's the kicker...if you have good social
>>> skills and half a brain, you can provide different bidding structures.
>>> you either talk your way in (and then deliver), or your ability to
>>> negotiate in business terms can outweigh the bid itself. to do that, you
>>> start with the old axiom...time, expense, and quality - you can only have
>>> two of those at the same time and the one you don't pick...that's the one
>>> that will suffer., i.e. a quality product developed in short order will
>>> cost a lot. that, ultimately, dictates hiring decisions.
>>>
>> Not at all. Lowest price only works when you're doing government
>> contracts, where agencies are mandated to take the lowest bid (from
>> qualified companies).
>>
>> In the real world, price is not as important as ability. And you called
>> it right there - time, expense and quality. When companies have to pick
>> two, expense loses out (except for the cheapskates). Otherwise, big
>> consulting firms wouldn't be able to farm out recent college grads at
>> $350/hr.
>>
>>
>>> the key is understanding which of those two combinations you can deliver
>>> on consistently and then going after the jobs under those constraints.
>>> either bid that per hour or per project or however.
>>>
>> Yep, and clients want to see a proven track record of quality and on-time
>> delivery.
>>
>>> theory is great. the car analogy just doesn't work in the real world. if
>>> it does in yours, you've been missing a lot of opportunity needlessly.
>>>
>> It's perfectly accurate in the real world. I've won some contracts in the
>> past not because I had the lowest price - but I could give them the best
>> quality. Sure, I've lost some because I wasn't the cheapest. But I
>> learned very early in the consulting game not to bid on price. Before I
>> learned that, I found I was spending a lot more time on those clients who
>> were only interested in price than I should have been - lowering my bottom
>> line. Once I stopped competing on price, my income increased.
>
> jerry, what i'm saying is that you're only looking at the quality factor.
> you're leaving out time and cost. you can shop in the quality market...the
> op can't. there are far more jobs available than you think where employers
> want quality and are willing to sacrifice time-to-market if their aim is
> two-fold...the actual product, and creating a loyal employee that is
> moldable. you may even be hired because of your familiarity with a business
> process (engineering, accounting, etc.) often, especially when prototyping,
> you want something out there that works...and you needed it yesturday. in
> both of those situations, the bid is terciary.
>

No, I'm not looking at the quality factor. I'm looking at the
performance factor. The hourly cost is not a factor. What good is is
to hire someone who charges 1/2 as much - if they take 3 times as long?

When getting something to market on time, a proven track record of
completing a project on time is much more important.

And when hiring a consultant, you aren't looking at creating a loyal
employee. You're looking at getting a job done. Nothing more.

>
>>>>> It is definitely possible for me to do the same immediately after
>>>>> building a
>>>>> foundation in Computer Science. It's all about how quickly you apply it
>>>>> to
>>>>> your goals.
>>>> That's a lofty goal, and I'm not at all trying to throw water on it. But
>>>> you have to also realize you have competition out there - a lot of it.
>>>> And they have something you don't have - experience and a proven track
>>>> record. It counts even more in consulting than auto repair.
>>> people are hired if they seem intelligent, listen, and fit in. yours is a
>>> very traditional view. i'd contend that it counts LESS in consulting than
>>> auto repair since a car has known parts and well defined systems that are
>>> fixed in a straightforward fashion. programming is rarely if ever, that.
>>>
>> Which means it's even more important to have that proven track record.
>
> no, it means one should convey intelligence, listen, and fit in.
>

No argument that intelligence is good. But a past record of performance
rules.

>>> think of it this way...if i have to fight an attacker who is bigger than
>>> i, quicker, and even prettier, i'm not going to win by trying to beat his
>>> strengths. less experienced people should not compete on even terms
>>> either. people are people and not computers. i can talk my way into any
>>> job i want. i choose those that will be able to deliver on...slowly
>>> building up my res. your social skills far outweigh your technical skills
>>> every time you get interviewed...and, at every stage of your career.
>>>
>>> you seem to leave that out.
>>>
>> True and false. You have to have the social skills, I do admit. But
>> you've got to get in the door first. And without any experience to show,
>> good clients won't give you the time of day.
>
> that's a relative truth and relative false. that may be your experience, but
> it isn't mine - as a consultant and an employer. you seem to think there's
> only one way to have your nike keep the door open. your technicals have
> little to do with selling yourself. and selling has little to do with
> showing some information on a piece of paper. if that were all there were to
> it, there would be very little need for so many commercials or pr reps and
> the like. a products 'worth' would just be plastered on it. hell, one well
> known company's foot-in-the-door into a competative nich was by specifically
> saying that "they were #2...so they worked harder" (paraphrased). have a
> google on that.
>

No, successful consultants have EVERYTHING to do with selling ourselves.
It's about building relationships and showing the prospective client
that you can do the job better at a lower relative cost than anyone else.

But first you need to get in the door. And without a proven track
record, you have little chance - unless you have other contacts.

> everyone walks into an interview advantaged and disadvantaged in some area.
> the one who gets the job sells himself well and "overcomes objections" - a
> commonly used marketing term.
>

Yes, but first you have to get into that interview.

> shit, i even had a friend in college who got a nursing job that required
> *specific* experience. he was a lit major.
>

Completely irrelevant, since you have given no detailed information
about what his previous experience was, what the job required...

> again, your experience is not mine. my eyes tell me that you're only using
> one edge of a triangle to open a door...there are two more. if you haven't
> tried them, your revenues - as good as you think they are - are not at their
> full earning capacity.
>

It's the same door that virtually every consultant I know uses. And I
do know quite a few computer consultants, all around the country.

Those who are successful have good interpersonal skills. But they also
have experience.

>>>> Now, that's not saying you can't get started. For instance, I know some
>>>> web developers who basically got a start with little experience. But
>>>> web development is a little different, and people are more willing to
>>>> take a chance. Most sites are not very expensive to build, and the
>>>> client isn't out that much.
>>> i have hired at least 3 people in as many years to maintain and enhance
>>> our corporate systems. they are mission critical applications. none of
>>> those 3 had *any* programming experience. they were intelligent, they
>>> listened, and they fit in. they also had a huge desire to do great
>>> things. those turn out to be your most loyal and creative developers on
>>> your team.
>>>
>> You're talking a corporate environment, not consulting. The two are
>> completely different worlds. Clients will not hire consultants with no
>> programming experience for mission critical systems.
>
> duh! i was the hiring manager in a corporation (still am) and i have hired 3
> people (consultants) in 3 years with NO experience in programming with *any*
> language. that is the whole point, jerry! and yes, they worked on my mission
> critical applications.
>

And you hired them as employees? No problem. See my post above.

> remember shelly? he used to post here? guess for whom he works now? are his
> skill sets in line with what i need? i think almost. however, i found him
> intelligent, a good listener, and he fits in. sorry, i'm a client and i've
> been doing *exactly* what you just said clients don't do. and my company is
> a $4B (that's b, as in billion) dollar fortune 50.
>
>> You are paying someone to learn. They are paying someone to perform. All
>> the difference in the world.
>
> i pay for both. again, it depends on what *i* need. you presuming to think i
> only need one thing limits your opportunities to work for me...simply
> because you think i'm only after one thing. do you really think your wife
> married you because you were attractive? > trolling>
>

You're want a job done. You hire a consultant to do it. Would you hire
someone with no carpentry experience to build an extra room on your house?

>>>> But even then it's hard to get started. You can start with some
>>>> non-profit organizations, for instance, and build a portfolio. Now you
>>>> have something to show prospective clients.
>>> that's a complete waste of time! bollocks. build a portfolio with paying
>>> customers...unless you just *want* to give your time away.
>>>
>> Not at all. That's how I got started many years ago - while I was
>> scratching out customers, I did volunteer work. It got me glowing
>> recommendations which I was able to carry on to bigger and better things.
>
> i tell you what gets more people more jobs than that. connections. everyone
> of us has them, not all of us use them...or know how to with any kind of
> diplomacy. the last $40K i made was simply because my bosses, bosses, boss
> remembered i'd consulted. he had a friend from his church that needed some
> work done. that's how simple it is. make friends who are willing to vouch
> for you. i volunteer for the priciple of volunteering - something needs
> doing and few are willing to do it. anything else is a gift with strings
> attached as far as i'm concerned. but, as an in-road to employment? utter
> waste of time.
>

Connections are only part of the equation. Sure, they help get you
jobs. But experience rules.

In your case, you got the $40K job because you had the experience.

>> Sure, the work at IBM helped - it showed I had experience as a programmer.
>> But the volunteer work showed I could carry that over into a consulting
>> role, outside the corporate environment.
>
> i'm not sure how you see consulting as outside of the corporate environment.
>

Consulting is nowhere near the same as a corporate environment.

>> Many consultants I know started the same way.
>
> but make of a very small percentage of those i come across...as a hiring
> manager. as a consultant myself, if someone asks if i can do something or if
> something can be done, the answer is always *yes*. unequivically. my
> reputation weighs into their reliance on the answer more than my previous
> work. and, when it comes down to it, i'd want someone working to sustain
> their reputation on my mission critical stuff rather than someone less
> committed to the success of the outcome...someone with paper-backing.
>

But you're a hiring manager. Completely different than contracting to
provide a specific service or product. Not to become an employee.

> there's more than one way to skin a cat...i happen to believe in using many
> knives.
>
>

No argument there. And successful consultants are able to wear more
than one hat. But beware those who say they can wear too many hats.
They typically are experts at none of them.


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

Re: Need Your Opinions

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
news:762dnSn_wNht3hnanZ2dnUVZ_rOqnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Steve wrote:
>> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
>> news:2qOdnc8YBax6JR7anZ2dnUVZ_ryqnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> Steve wrote:
>>>> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
>>>> news:MOednTchgqpVHR7anZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>>> LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
>>>>>> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good luck. You'll need to walk before you can run. No one (in
>>>>>>> their right mind, anyway) is going to hire a company with no proven
>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to
>>>>>>>> develop a
>>>>>>>> database like the one my employer has?
>>>>>>> Any of these will work. But you'll need experience. I've been
>>>>>>> consulting since 1990. But before that I had 13 years of experience
>>>>>>> with IBM to show. Even then, the first few jobs were hard. With no
>>>>>>> experience, you're not going to get much for jobs. And certainly
>>>>>>> not something like you're talking, which is critical to their
>>>>>>> business.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not trying to scare you off. I just don't want you to have
>>>>>>> unrealistic hopes.
>>>>>> Thanks for your expertise and opinions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I realize that I have to crawl before I walk. I have a vision for my
>>>>>> future
>>>>>> and my motivation and vision is what is going to carry me to my
>>>>>> goals. Honestly, not to overlook your credentials and years of
>>>>>> expertise, but it was
>>>>>> your choice to spend 13 years with IBM before you began consulting.
>>>>>> Your
>>>>>> companies success has to do with your team, vision, connections, and
>>>>>> ability
>>>>>> to sell your services. The first and the latter would be the most
>>>>>> important...
>>>>>> team and sales. I've known web/database developers that started off
>>>>>> consulting with smaller to mid range companies and evolved to working
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> larger companies within 5-7 years. And I personally don't like the
>>>>>> mindset
>>>>>> that you have to spend 10-13 years of your life working for someone
>>>>>> before
>>>>>> you can branch out and establish your own company. That mindset is
>>>>>> what they
>>>>>> teach you in college and it sucks.
>>>>> That could be true. But in the consulting business, experience rules.
>>>>> For instance, all else being the same, would you rather take your car
>>>>> to someone with 10 years of experience, or someone who studied auto
>>>>> manuals in his spare time and just opened a shop? I suspect it would
>>>>> be the experienced guy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, what if the experienced guy charged $75/hr. and the new guy
>>>>> $50/hr? You might be tempted to try the new guy. But what if your
>>>>> vehicle is critical to your work - and your job depends on it? Would
>>>>> you still be willing to take a chance on the new guy? Probably less
>>>>> likely. Some things are worth the extra money.
>>>> that may make sense, jerry...if it worked that way. generally, if the
>>>> bids are all within close proximity, the lower priced bidder wins out.
>>>> same with cars even then. here's the kicker...if you have good social
>>>> skills and half a brain, you can provide different bidding structures.
>>>> you either talk your way in (and then deliver), or your ability to
>>>> negotiate in business terms can outweigh the bid itself. to do that,
>>>> you start with the old axiom...time, expense, and quality - you can
>>>> only have two of those at the same time and the one you don't
>>>> pick...that's the one that will suffer., i.e. a quality product
>>>> developed in short order will cost a lot. that, ultimately, dictates
>>>> hiring decisions.
>>>>
>>> Not at all. Lowest price only works when you're doing government
>>> contracts, where agencies are mandated to take the lowest bid (from
>>> qualified companies).
>>>
>>> In the real world, price is not as important as ability. And you called
>>> it right there - time, expense and quality. When companies have to pick
>>> two, expense loses out (except for the cheapskates). Otherwise, big
>>> consulting firms wouldn't be able to farm out recent college grads at
>>> $350/hr.
>>>
>>>
>>>> the key is understanding which of those two combinations you can
>>>> deliver on consistently and then going after the jobs under those
>>>> constraints. either bid that per hour or per project or however.
>>>>
>>> Yep, and clients want to see a proven track record of quality and
>>> on-time delivery.
>>>
>>>> theory is great. the car analogy just doesn't work in the real world.
>>>> if it does in yours, you've been missing a lot of opportunity
>>>> needlessly.
>>>>
>>> It's perfectly accurate in the real world. I've won some contracts in
>>> the past not because I had the lowest price - but I could give them the
>>> best quality. Sure, I've lost some because I wasn't the cheapest. But
>>> I learned very early in the consulting game not to bid on price. Before
>>> I learned that, I found I was spending a lot more time on those clients
>>> who were only interested in price than I should have been - lowering my
>>> bottom line. Once I stopped competing on price, my income increased.
>>
>> jerry, what i'm saying is that you're only looking at the quality factor.
>> you're leaving out time and cost. you can shop in the quality
>> market...the op can't. there are far more jobs available than you think
>> where employers want quality and are willing to sacrifice time-to-market
>> if their aim is two-fold...the actual product, and creating a loyal
>> employee that is moldable. you may even be hired because of your
>> familiarity with a business process (engineering, accounting, etc.)
>> often, especially when prototyping, you want something out there that
>> works...and you needed it yesturday. in both of those situations, the bid
>> is terciary.
>>
>
> No, I'm not looking at the quality factor. I'm looking at the performance
> factor. The hourly cost is not a factor. What good is is to hire someone
> who charges 1/2 as much - if they take 3 times as long?

since when does a consultant dictate the time span of a project? specific
performance is written into contracts, jerry. if i hire someone who charges
half as much or the most expensive bidder out there, i dictate the work to
be done and the time frame under which it will be done. there are penalties
and rewards for meeting deadlines. thinking that a $10 ph consultant will
cost you more in the long run than a $20 ph consultant is not accurate
math...and a complete failure on the hiring party to protect the company's
interests.

btw, 'performance' is based on what? time, quality, and expense! if i have a
limited budget but sufficient time available, i can hire a $10 employee to
produce quality.

> When getting something to market on time, a proven track record of
> completing a project on time is much more important.

i don't think so. when getting something to market, the product is what
counts. there are a range of factors you're neglecting to consider. i may
hire a mathematician and pay him not only for output, but to learn to
program at the same time - may even send him to school...simply for the fact
that i need an application that uses 4th order runge-cutta to give me
lightining fast simulation capabilities using state/space variables. if
there is anyone other than me in this news group that knows what i just said
*and* can program it, i'd be highly suprised! so, what does that mean? the
mathematician, with NO track record in programming, definitely gets the
job...even over the 'seasoned' pro's.

that's just a 'for instance'. i can think of several more scenarios all
sufficient to show your remark as a bit short-sighted.

> And when hiring a consultant, you aren't looking at creating a loyal
> employee. You're looking at getting a job done. Nothing more.

really? do you hire them? i do. and, everyone is looking to get a job done -
it's kind of what companies exist to do. it goes without saying. to say
'nothing more' is to think all companies do business the same way. that's a
farse. the parallel to that statement would be to say the only thing that is
important in programming is that the end-product works. you should
immediately think, "no, that's the reason you *program*. that doesn't cover
*how* you program."

>>
>>>>>> It is definitely possible for me to do the same immediately after
>>>>>> building a
>>>>>> foundation in Computer Science. It's all about how quickly you apply
>>>>>> it to
>>>>>> your goals.
>>>>> That's a lofty goal, and I'm not at all trying to throw water on it.
>>>>> But you have to also realize you have competition out there - a lot of
>>>>> it. And they have something you don't have - experience and a proven
>>>>> track record. It counts even more in consulting than auto repair.
>>>> people are hired if they seem intelligent, listen, and fit in. yours is
>>>> a very traditional view. i'd contend that it counts LESS in consulting
>>>> than auto repair since a car has known parts and well defined systems
>>>> that are fixed in a straightforward fashion. programming is rarely if
>>>> ever, that.
>>>>
>>> Which means it's even more important to have that proven track record.
>>
>> no, it means one should convey intelligence, listen, and fit in.
>>
>
> No argument that intelligence is good. But a past record of performance
> rules.

please don't overlook the fact that i was clarifying your assumption you
made from reading that. i was correcting your logical conclusion, which was
wrong in no uncertain terms.

and, yes, you do think that past performance 'rules'...whatever that means.
placing employees is just like picking the right combination of db's,
languages, and operating systems and configurations when putting an
application together. your 'rules' statement is akin to saying language A is
the only language anyone should program in. i don't hire people like you
think i should...i pick them if they are right for the job. that is a
combination of equitable factors...and previous experience is on a level
playing field when i'm evaluating things.

>>>> think of it this way...if i have to fight an attacker who is bigger
>>>> than i, quicker, and even prettier, i'm not going to win by trying to
>>>> beat his strengths. less experienced people should not compete on even
>>>> terms either. people are people and not computers. i can talk my way
>>>> into any job i want. i choose those that will be able to deliver
>>>> on...slowly building up my res. your social skills far outweigh your
>>>> technical skills every time you get interviewed...and, at every stage
>>>> of your career.
>>>>
>>>> you seem to leave that out.
>>>>
>>> True and false. You have to have the social skills, I do admit. But
>>> you've got to get in the door first. And without any experience to
>>> show, good clients won't give you the time of day.
>>
>> that's a relative truth and relative false. that may be your experience,
>> but it isn't mine - as a consultant and an employer. you seem to think
>> there's only one way to have your nike keep the door open. your
>> technicals have little to do with selling yourself. and selling has
>> little to do with showing some information on a piece of paper. if that
>> were all there were to it, there would be very little need for so many
>> commercials or pr reps and the like. a products 'worth' would just be
>> plastered on it. hell, one well known company's foot-in-the-door into a
>> competative nich was by specifically saying that "they were #2...so they
>> worked harder" (paraphrased). have a google on that.
>>
>
> No, successful consultants have EVERYTHING to do with selling ourselves.
> It's about building relationships and showing the prospective client that
> you can do the job better at a lower relative cost than anyone else.

i almost agree 100%. almost. if one of your sales pitches is 'better...for
less', then you've missed the boat. as a consultant, my job is to convince a
prospective that they have to have me on their team/project...price be
damned! if one of your pitches is that you don't cost as much, that just
means you lack a skill set or are weak in other areas...at least in my book
anyway.

> But first you need to get in the door. And without a proven track record,
> you have little chance - unless you have other contacts.

jerry, it's the 'unless' that you've yet to explore. i've told you that
yours is a very traditional view of gaining employment. it isn't wrong. it's
just very slow to provide results, and in a lot of cases, it's a needless
venture. yes, if i tried to get work your way when i started out, i indeed
would have had little chance. but, in this industry, how many people do you
know that sought out this profession. in this industry, most of us saw
opportunites in business that technology could fix. i know several people
that started programming with microsoft access because they could
consolidate views of spreadsheet data, query it, and deliver reports that
were meaningful (and pretty).

i'm telling you, if i find a person like that - one who can see opportunity
and apply technology to capitalize on it - price be damned and experience be
damned, i want 'em. how valuable is that ability v. a code monkey who has
cranked out billions of lines of code, never lifting his head above his
monitor to look around at how my company runs?

>> everyone walks into an interview advantaged and disadvantaged in some
>> area. the one who gets the job sells himself well and "overcomes
>> objections" - a commonly used marketing term.
>>
>
> Yes, but first you have to get into that interview.

you've said your work is all referal now days. i'd believe that, otherwise
i'd suspect that you haven't looked at all the resources available to
you...like simply picking up a book on getting a job in the current market.
contacts, social skills, creativity, diplomatic persistence...those are what
get you interviews. at least, those are the ones i grant an audience when
i'm hiring.

>> shit, i even had a friend in college who got a nursing job that required
>> *specific* experience. he was a lit major.
>>
>
> Completely irrelevant, since you have given no detailed information about
> what his previous experience was, what the job required...

well, one of the requirements was that he had to be a current nursing major.
again, he was a lit major. his previous experience in nursing was nil. he
was, however, intelligent, a listener, and fit in.

btw, relevancy is not dictated by how well/poor the subject was presented:
only that the subject presented is in context with the discussion. fyi.

>> again, your experience is not mine. my eyes tell me that you're only
>> using one edge of a triangle to open a door...there are two more. if you
>> haven't tried them, your revenues - as good as you think they are - are
>> not at their full earning capacity.
>>
>
> It's the same door that virtually every consultant I know uses. And I do
> know quite a few computer consultants, all around the country.
>
> Those who are successful have good interpersonal skills. But they also
> have experience.

your conclusion is that the experience got them the jobs, and that they have
good interpersonal skills. further, that since this path is shared by them
and they are employed, that that path is the one to go with - such to the
extent that you think it is the only path. ever wonder why 1 in n-thousand
people do something notable in any given fascet of life? you know, the 'path
less travelled' is usually the *only* thing shared by those people, and that
does indeed make all the difference. i'd just caution that the suggested
path is not the only one, and that good interpersonal skills have nothing to
do with being able to market yourself well.

i never said that path (volunteering to get experience) wouldn't work. i'm
just saying it's a waste of time for the volunteer. i'm saying that as one
who hires people. i'd think you'd be more willing to take what i'm saying to
heart. i'm not debating you, jerry. i'm telling you that i'm a hiring
manager for a fortune 50 company and that what you think i'm looking for is,
in fact, not at all what i'm looking for.

>>>>> Now, that's not saying you can't get started. For instance, I know
>>>>> some web developers who basically got a start with little experience.
>>>>> But web development is a little different, and people are more willing
>>>>> to take a chance. Most sites are not very expensive to build, and the
>>>>> client isn't out that much.
>>>> i have hired at least 3 people in as many years to maintain and enhance
>>>> our corporate systems. they are mission critical applications. none of
>>>> those 3 had *any* programming experience. they were intelligent, they
>>>> listened, and they fit in. they also had a huge desire to do great
>>>> things. those turn out to be your most loyal and creative developers on
>>>> your team.
>>>>
>>> You're talking a corporate environment, not consulting. The two are
>>> completely different worlds. Clients will not hire consultants with no
>>> programming experience for mission critical systems.
>>
>> duh! i was the hiring manager in a corporation (still am) and i have
>> hired 3 people (consultants) in 3 years with NO experience in programming
>> with *any* language. that is the whole point, jerry! and yes, they worked
>> on my mission critical applications.
>>
>
> And you hired them as employees? No problem. See my post above.

note the parenthetical. they were hired as consultants. it just so happens
that very few consultants want to be career consultants - in the IT world
anyway. it also happens happily that companies cringe at the thought of
being tied to having to use consultans as a standard of practice. their work
for us as consultants turned out, as we usually treat it, to be a 'trial
run' for them and us. it has been beneficial for all parties.

and to whatever 'see my post above' i'm supposed to look at, i'm sure you
can see my response that followed it.

>> remember shelly? he used to post here? guess for whom he works now? are
>> his skill sets in line with what i need? i think almost. however, i found
>> him intelligent, a good listener, and he fits in. sorry, i'm a client and
>> i've been doing *exactly* what you just said clients don't do. and my
>> company is a $4B (that's b, as in billion) dollar fortune 50.
>>
>>> You are paying someone to learn. They are paying someone to perform.
>>> All the difference in the world.
>>
>> i pay for both. again, it depends on what *i* need. you presuming to
>> think i only need one thing limits your opportunities to work for
>> me...simply because you think i'm only after one thing. do you really
>> think your wife married you because you were attractive? >> don't start more trolling>
>>
>
> You're want a job done. You hire a consultant to do it. Would you hire
> someone with no carpentry experience to build an extra room on your house?

learning to program or working with little experience in programming is an
apple. carpentry is an orange. if you're going to argue this analogy once
again, then let's take it all the way. you already know my answer to that
question, and i have very loyal carpenters who started out doing detail work
on my house and in short order, they put a deck on the second story. now
i've got them building mansions on my other properties. with all of the
wonderful things they've done in my neighborhood, my propery value has
sky-rocketed.

>>>>> But even then it's hard to get started. You can start with some
>>>>> non-profit organizations, for instance, and build a portfolio. Now
>>>>> you have something to show prospective clients.
>>>> that's a complete waste of time! bollocks. build a portfolio with
>>>> paying customers...unless you just *want* to give your time away.
>>>>
>>> Not at all. That's how I got started many years ago - while I was
>>> scratching out customers, I did volunteer work. It got me glowing
>>> recommendations which I was able to carry on to bigger and better
>>> things.
>>
>> i tell you what gets more people more jobs than that. connections.
>> everyone of us has them, not all of us use them...or know how to with any
>> kind of diplomacy. the last $40K i made was simply because my bosses,
>> bosses, boss remembered i'd consulted. he had a friend from his church
>> that needed some work done. that's how simple it is. make friends who are
>> willing to vouch for you. i volunteer for the priciple of volunteering -
>> something needs doing and few are willing to do it. anything else is a
>> gift with strings attached as far as i'm concerned. but, as an in-road to
>> employment? utter waste of time.
>>
>
> Connections are only part of the equation. Sure, they help get you jobs.
> But experience rules.

'rules'...what does that mean exactly? i still contend that experience is on
a level playing field. since i'm the one doing the hiring, i'd think you'd
be happly to concede the point. you are effectively telling me i don't know
what i do know. kind of a self-nullifying endeavor, isn't it?

> In your case, you got the $40K job because you had the experience.

no, it was because i had a good realtionship far up the food-chain that
opened the door of opportunity. specifically, i've worked for the past two
years consulting as a second job where the relationship began with, 'i trust
you because you know my friend, and he said you'd be perfect for this'. how
much specific knowledge about the quality, volume, timeliness of my actual
work do you think my bosses, bosses, boss actually knows...in a huge company
at that? i was hired by recommendations of character and commitment - the
only real things that my bosses, bosses, boss actually had personal
knowledge of. you've just made a poor assumption based on lack of
information. i wouldn't assume you took yourself too seriously there, since
that fact is blantantly obvious.

>>> Sure, the work at IBM helped - it showed I had experience as a
>>> programmer. But the volunteer work showed I could carry that over into a
>>> consulting role, outside the corporate environment.
>>
>> i'm not sure how you see consulting as outside of the corporate
>> environment.
>>
>
> Consulting is nowhere near the same as a corporate environment.

here's where you tell in what ways so that others, i.e. me, know what you're
talking about. we may or may not be in agreement.

>>> Many consultants I know started the same way.
>>
>> but make of a very small percentage of those i come across...as a hiring
>> manager. as a consultant myself, if someone asks if i can do something or
>> if something can be done, the answer is always *yes*. unequivically. my
>> reputation weighs into their reliance on the answer more than my previous
>> work. and, when it comes down to it, i'd want someone working to sustain
>> their reputation on my mission critical stuff rather than someone less
>> committed to the success of the outcome...someone with paper-backing.
>>
>
> But you're a hiring manager. Completely different than contracting to
> provide a specific service or product. Not to become an employee.

wow. actually, that's not a job title. it is a fascet of my duties. my job
revolves around r & d and prototyping. it is my job to provide architectural
concepts and implement them, turning them into profitable solutions to the
way my company does business. i have the task to specifically seek out
*consultants* as needed to get a working model put together for evaluation.
i cannot use fte's for this as they are dedicated to standard existing
product enhancement and maintenance. part of my task is to pick good
*consultants* that can be seen as good candidates for fte...even if the
prototype doesn't ever leave that stage of development, i.e. is declined.

i fail to see how that is 'completely different than contracting to provide
a specific service or product'. serious, no matter what my role in my
company, you cannot hope to suggest that if i go to a consultant and give
him work, that he is no longer a consultant if my perspective is to perhaps
offer him a job! most people who hire a consultant are evaluating them in
the same light as i...they are always on the look out for potential
employees...good ones.

>> there's more than one way to skin a cat...i happen to believe in using
>> many knives.
>
> No argument there. And successful consultants are able to wear more than
> one hat. But beware those who say they can wear too many hats. They
> typically are experts at none of them.

jack of all trades, master of none is a very old axiom. but hell, you can
even make good use of those too. :)

Re: Need Your Opinions

Steve wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
> news:762dnSn_wNht3hnanZ2dnUVZ_rOqnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Steve wrote:
>>> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
>>> news:2qOdnc8YBax6JR7anZ2dnUVZ_ryqnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>> Steve wrote:
>>>>> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
>>>>> news:MOednTchgqpVHR7anZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>>>> LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
>>>>>>> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good luck. You'll need to walk before you can run. No one (in
>>>>>>>> their right mind, anyway) is going to hire a company with no proven
>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to
>>>>>>>>> develop a
>>>>>>>>> database like the one my employer has?
>>>>>>>> Any of these will work. But you'll need experience. I've been
>>>>>>>> consulting since 1990. But before that I had 13 years of experience
>>>>>>>> with IBM to show. Even then, the first few jobs were hard. With no
>>>>>>>> experience, you're not going to get much for jobs. And certainly
>>>>>>>> not something like you're talking, which is critical to their
>>>>>>>> business.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not trying to scare you off. I just don't want you to have
>>>>>>>> unrealistic hopes.
>>>>>>> Thanks for your expertise and opinions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I realize that I have to crawl before I walk. I have a vision for my
>>>>>>> future
>>>>>>> and my motivation and vision is what is going to carry me to my
>>>>>>> goals. Honestly, not to overlook your credentials and years of
>>>>>>> expertise, but it was
>>>>>>> your choice to spend 13 years with IBM before you began consulting.
>>>>>>> Your
>>>>>>> companies success has to do with your team, vision, connections, and
>>>>>>> ability
>>>>>>> to sell your services. The first and the latter would be the most
>>>>>>> important...
>>>>>>> team and sales. I've known web/database developers that started off
>>>>>>> consulting with smaller to mid range companies and evolved to working
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> larger companies within 5-7 years. And I personally don't like the
>>>>>>> mindset
>>>>>>> that you have to spend 10-13 years of your life working for someone
>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>> you can branch out and establish your own company. That mindset is
>>>>>>> what they
>>>>>>> teach you in college and it sucks.
>>>>>> That could be true. But in the consulting business, experience rules.
>>>>>> For instance, all else being the same, would you rather take your car
>>>>>> to someone with 10 years of experience, or someone who studied auto
>>>>>> manuals in his spare time and just opened a shop? I suspect it would
>>>>>> be the experienced guy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, what if the experienced guy charged $75/hr. and the new guy
>>>>>> $50/hr? You might be tempted to try the new guy. But what if your
>>>>>> vehicle is critical to your work - and your job depends on it? Would
>>>>>> you still be willing to take a chance on the new guy? Probably less
>>>>>> likely. Some things are worth the extra money.
>>>>> that may make sense, jerry...if it worked that way. generally, if the
>>>>> bids are all within close proximity, the lower priced bidder wins out.
>>>>> same with cars even then. here's the kicker...if you have good social
>>>>> skills and half a brain, you can provide different bidding structures.
>>>>> you either talk your way in (and then deliver), or your ability to
>>>>> negotiate in business terms can outweigh the bid itself. to do that,
>>>>> you start with the old axiom...time, expense, and quality - you can
>>>>> only have two of those at the same time and the one you don't
>>>>> pick...that's the one that will suffer., i.e. a quality product
>>>>> developed in short order will cost a lot. that, ultimately, dictates
>>>>> hiring decisions.
>>>>>
>>>> Not at all. Lowest price only works when you're doing government
>>>> contracts, where agencies are mandated to take the lowest bid (from
>>>> qualified companies).
>>>>
>>>> In the real world, price is not as important as ability. And you called
>>>> it right there - time, expense and quality. When companies have to pick
>>>> two, expense loses out (except for the cheapskates). Otherwise, big
>>>> consulting firms wouldn't be able to farm out recent college grads at
>>>> $350/hr.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> the key is understanding which of those two combinations you can
>>>>> deliver on consistently and then going after the jobs under those
>>>>> constraints. either bid that per hour or per project or however.
>>>>>
>>>> Yep, and clients want to see a proven track record of quality and
>>>> on-time delivery.
>>>>
>>>>> theory is great. the car analogy just doesn't work in the real world.
>>>>> if it does in yours, you've been missing a lot of opportunity
>>>>> needlessly.
>>>>>
>>>> It's perfectly accurate in the real world. I've won some contracts in
>>>> the past not because I had the lowest price - but I could give them the
>>>> best quality. Sure, I've lost some because I wasn't the cheapest. But
>>>> I learned very early in the consulting game not to bid on price. Before
>>>> I learned that, I found I was spending a lot more time on those clients
>>>> who were only interested in price than I should have been - lowering my
>>>> bottom line. Once I stopped competing on price, my income increased.
>>> jerry, what i'm saying is that you're only looking at the quality factor.
>>> you're leaving out time and cost. you can shop in the quality
>>> market...the op can't. there are far more jobs available than you think
>>> where employers want quality and are willing to sacrifice time-to-market
>>> if their aim is two-fold...the actual product, and creating a loyal
>>> employee that is moldable. you may even be hired because of your
>>> familiarity with a business process (engineering, accounting, etc.)
>>> often, especially when prototyping, you want something out there that
>>> works...and you needed it yesturday. in both of those situations, the bid
>>> is terciary.
>>>
>> No, I'm not looking at the quality factor. I'm looking at the performance
>> factor. The hourly cost is not a factor. What good is is to hire someone
>> who charges 1/2 as much - if they take 3 times as long?
>
> since when does a consultant dictate the time span of a project? specific
> performance is written into contracts, jerry. if i hire someone who charges
> half as much or the most expensive bidder out there, i dictate the work to
> be done and the time frame under which it will be done. there are penalties
> and rewards for meeting deadlines. thinking that a $10 ph consultant will
> cost you more in the long run than a $20 ph consultant is not accurate
> math...and a complete failure on the hiring party to protect the company's
> interests.
>

When a consultant does a bid on an hourly basis, that is for the number
of hours the consultant spends on the contract. Nothing more, nothing
less. You can put a limit on the amount of time spent. That may mean
your project is not finished.

> btw, 'performance' is based on what? time, quality, and expense! if i have a
> limited budget but sufficient time available, i can hire a $10 employee to
> produce quality.
>

Which has nothing to to with consulting.

>> When getting something to market on time, a proven track record of
>> completing a project on time is much more important.
>
> i don't think so. when getting something to market, the product is what
> counts. there are a range of factors you're neglecting to consider. i may
> hire a mathematician and pay him not only for output, but to learn to
> program at the same time - may even send him to school...simply for the fact
> that i need an application that uses 4th order runge-cutta to give me
> lightining fast simulation capabilities using state/space variables. if
> there is anyone other than me in this news group that knows what i just said
> *and* can program it, i'd be highly suprised! so, what does that mean? the
> mathematician, with NO track record in programming, definitely gets the
> job...even over the 'seasoned' pro's.
>

Yes, you may HIRE an EMPLOYEE and train them. That is NOT the same as
CONTRACTING a CONSULTANT.

> that's just a 'for instance'. i can think of several more scenarios all
> sufficient to show your remark as a bit short-sighted.
>

No, your comments show you have no experience with consultants. You may
be a hiring manager. But you don't contract consultants.

>> And when hiring a consultant, you aren't looking at creating a loyal
>> employee. You're looking at getting a job done. Nothing more.
>
> really? do you hire them? i do. and, everyone is looking to get a job done -
> it's kind of what companies exist to do. it goes without saying. to say
> 'nothing more' is to think all companies do business the same way. that's a
> farse. the parallel to that statement would be to say the only thing that is
> important in programming is that the end-product works. you should
> immediately think, "no, that's the reason you *program*. that doesn't cover
> *how* you program."
>

No. Bad wording on my part. You CONTRACT with a consultant. Or, more
specifically, you contract with the consulting company. By definition,
a consultant is not an employee.

And the bottom line is. You are looking at getting a job done. Nothing
more. You, as the contractor, have little control over how the
consultant programs.

>>>>>>> It is definitely possible for me to do the same immediately after
>>>>>>> building a
>>>>>>> foundation in Computer Science. It's all about how quickly you apply
>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>> your goals.
>>>>>> That's a lofty goal, and I'm not at all trying to throw water on it.
>>>>>> But you have to also realize you have competition out there - a lot of
>>>>>> it. And they have something you don't have - experience and a proven
>>>>>> track record. It counts even more in consulting than auto repair.
>>>>> people are hired if they seem intelligent, listen, and fit in. yours is
>>>>> a very traditional view. i'd contend that it counts LESS in consulting
>>>>> than auto repair since a car has known parts and well defined systems
>>>>> that are fixed in a straightforward fashion. programming is rarely if
>>>>> ever, that.
>>>>>
>>>> Which means it's even more important to have that proven track record.
>>> no, it means one should convey intelligence, listen, and fit in.
>>>
>> No argument that intelligence is good. But a past record of performance
>> rules.
>
> please don't overlook the fact that i was clarifying your assumption you
> made from reading that. i was correcting your logical conclusion, which was
> wrong in no uncertain terms.
>

In your opinion it was wrong. Not in the opinion of a lot of
consultants I know - and the companies who contract them.

Again, your opinion is correct when it comes to employees. But not
consultants.

> and, yes, you do think that past performance 'rules'...whatever that means.
> placing employees is just like picking the right combination of db's,
> languages, and operating systems and configurations when putting an
> application together. your 'rules' statement is akin to saying language A is
> the only language anyone should program in. i don't hire people like you
> think i should...i pick them if they are right for the job. that is a
> combination of equitable factors...and previous experience is on a level
> playing field when i'm evaluating things.
>

You're talking employees again. I'm talking consultants. They are two
entirely different things.

>>>>> think of it this way...if i have to fight an attacker who is bigger
>>>>> than i, quicker, and even prettier, i'm not going to win by trying to
>>>>> beat his strengths. less experienced people should not compete on even
>>>>> terms either. people are people and not computers. i can talk my way
>>>>> into any job i want. i choose those that will be able to deliver
>>>>> on...slowly building up my res. your social skills far outweigh your
>>>>> technical skills every time you get interviewed...and, at every stage
>>>>> of your career.
>>>>>
>>>>> you seem to leave that out.
>>>>>
>>>> True and false. You have to have the social skills, I do admit. But
>>>> you've got to get in the door first. And without any experience to
>>>> show, good clients won't give you the time of day.
>>> that's a relative truth and relative false. that may be your experience,
>>> but it isn't mine - as a consultant and an employer. you seem to think
>>> there's only one way to have your nike keep the door open. your
>>> technicals have little to do with selling yourself. and selling has
>>> little to do with showing some information on a piece of paper. if that
>>> were all there were to it, there would be very little need for so many
>>> commercials or pr reps and the like. a products 'worth' would just be
>>> plastered on it. hell, one well known company's foot-in-the-door into a
>>> competative nich was by specifically saying that "they were #2...so they
>>> worked harder" (paraphrased). have a google on that.
>>>
>> No, successful consultants have EVERYTHING to do with selling ourselves.
>> It's about building relationships and showing the prospective client that
>> you can do the job better at a lower relative cost than anyone else.
>
> i almost agree 100%. almost. if one of your sales pitches is 'better...for
> less', then you've missed the boat. as a consultant, my job is to convince a
> prospective that they have to have me on their team/project...price be
> damned! if one of your pitches is that you don't cost as much, that just
> means you lack a skill set or are weak in other areas...at least in my book
> anyway.
>

You don't know my sales pitch. And I didn't say I didn't charge less.

>> But first you need to get in the door. And without a proven track record,
>> you have little chance - unless you have other contacts.
>
> jerry, it's the 'unless' that you've yet to explore. i've told you that
> yours is a very traditional view of gaining employment. it isn't wrong. it's
> just very slow to provide results, and in a lot of cases, it's a needless
> venture. yes, if i tried to get work your way when i started out, i indeed
> would have had little chance. but, in this industry, how many people do you
> know that sought out this profession. in this industry, most of us saw
> opportunites in business that technology could fix. i know several people
> that started programming with microsoft access because they could
> consolidate views of spreadsheet data, query it, and deliver reports that
> were meaningful (and pretty).
>

And I've told you - WE ARE NOT TALKING EMPLOYEES! We are talking
CONSULTANTS. They are two entirely different worlds.

> i'm telling you, if i find a person like that - one who can see opportunity
> and apply technology to capitalize on it - price be damned and experience be
> damned, i want 'em. how valuable is that ability v. a code monkey who has
> cranked out billions of lines of code, never lifting his head above his
> monitor to look around at how my company runs?
>

You want them as AN EMPLOYEE. That is not a CONSULTANT. Two entirely
different wolds!

>>> everyone walks into an interview advantaged and disadvantaged in some
>>> area. the one who gets the job sells himself well and "overcomes
>>> objections" - a commonly used marketing term.
>>>
>> Yes, but first you have to get into that interview.
>
> you've said your work is all referal now days. i'd believe that, otherwise
> i'd suspect that you haven't looked at all the resources available to
> you...like simply picking up a book on getting a job in the current market.
> contacts, social skills, creativity, diplomatic persistence...those are what
> get you interviews. at least, those are the ones i grant an audience when
> i'm hiring.
>

And you're HIRING EMPLOYEES. You are not CONTRACTING CONSULTANTS.

>>> shit, i even had a friend in college who got a nursing job that required
>>> *specific* experience. he was a lit major.
>>>
>> Completely irrelevant, since you have given no detailed information about
>> what his previous experience was, what the job required...
>
> well, one of the requirements was that he had to be a current nursing major.
> again, he was a lit major. his previous experience in nursing was nil. he
> was, however, intelligent, a listener, and fit in.
>

And he was hired as AN EMPLOYEE. Not A CONSULTANT.

> btw, relevancy is not dictated by how well/poor the subject was presented:
> only that the subject presented is in context with the discussion. fyi.
>

And hiring an employee is not the context of this discussion. Which you
don't seem to understand is different than contracting with a consultant.

>>> again, your experience is not mine. my eyes tell me that you're only
>>> using one edge of a triangle to open a door...there are two more. if you
>>> haven't tried them, your revenues - as good as you think they are - are
>>> not at their full earning capacity.
>>>
>> It's the same door that virtually every consultant I know uses. And I do
>> know quite a few computer consultants, all around the country.
>>
>> Those who are successful have good interpersonal skills. But they also
>> have experience.
>
> your conclusion is that the experience got them the jobs, and that they have
> good interpersonal skills. further, that since this path is shared by them
> and they are employed, that that path is the one to go with - such to the
> extent that you think it is the only path. ever wonder why 1 in n-thousand
> people do something notable in any given fascet of life? you know, the 'path
> less travelled' is usually the *only* thing shared by those people, and that
> does indeed make all the difference. i'd just caution that the suggested
> path is not the only one, and that good interpersonal skills have nothing to
> do with being able to market yourself well.
>

No, I've seen people try you "road less traveled". They've gone into
consulting with no real experience. Some were right out of college,
some weren't even that far. The vast majority of them failed, due to
lack of proven experience. And yes, many of them had good interpersonal
skills.

Those few who didn't fail were able to get started with small jobs (i.e.
web sites for friends) and volunteer work. Once they got a track record
of performing, they were able to leverage that into bigger jobs.

But none were able to get any really decent work until they had that
track record.

> i never said that path (volunteering to get experience) wouldn't work. i'm
> just saying it's a waste of time for the volunteer. i'm saying that as one
> who hires people. i'd think you'd be more willing to take what i'm saying to
> heart. i'm not debating you, jerry. i'm telling you that i'm a hiring
> manager for a fortune 50 company and that what you think i'm looking for is,
> in fact, not at all what i'm looking for.
>

Once again - you're talking HIRING an EMPLOYEE. I'm talking CONSULTING.
They are two completely different worlds.

>>>>>> Now, that's not saying you can't get started. For instance, I know
>>>>>> some web developers who basically got a start with little experience.
>>>>>> But web development is a little different, and people are more willing
>>>>>> to take a chance. Most sites are not very expensive to build, and the
>>>>>> client isn't out that much.
>>>>> i have hired at least 3 people in as many years to maintain and enhance
>>>>> our corporate systems. they are mission critical applications. none of
>>>>> those 3 had *any* programming experience. they were intelligent, they
>>>>> listened, and they fit in. they also had a huge desire to do great
>>>>> things. those turn out to be your most loyal and creative developers on
>>>>> your team.
>>>>>
>>>> You're talking a corporate environment, not consulting. The two are
>>>> completely different worlds. Clients will not hire consultants with no
>>>> programming experience for mission critical systems.
>>> duh! i was the hiring manager in a corporation (still am) and i have
>>> hired 3 people (consultants) in 3 years with NO experience in programming
>>> with *any* language. that is the whole point, jerry! and yes, they worked
>>> on my mission critical applications.
>>>
>> And you hired them as employees? No problem. See my post above.
>
> note the parenthetical. they were hired as consultants. it just so happens
> that very few consultants want to be career consultants - in the IT world
> anyway. it also happens happily that companies cringe at the thought of
> being tied to having to use consultans as a standard of practice. their work
> for us as consultants turned out, as we usually treat it, to be a 'trial
> run' for them and us. it has been beneficial for all parties.
>

By definition, they are employees or they are consultants. The
difference is controlled by federal and state law. They cannot be both.

> and to whatever 'see my post above' i'm supposed to look at, i'm sure you
> can see my response that followed it.
>

Yep.

>>> remember shelly? he used to post here? guess for whom he works now? are
>>> his skill sets in line with what i need? i think almost. however, i found
>>> him intelligent, a good listener, and he fits in. sorry, i'm a client and
>>> i've been doing *exactly* what you just said clients don't do. and my
>>> company is a $4B (that's b, as in billion) dollar fortune 50.
>>>
>>>> You are paying someone to learn. They are paying someone to perform.
>>>> All the difference in the world.
>>> i pay for both. again, it depends on what *i* need. you presuming to
>>> think i only need one thing limits your opportunities to work for
>>> me...simply because you think i'm only after one thing. do you really
>>> think your wife married you because you were attractive? >>> don't start more trolling>
>>>
>> You're want a job done. You hire a consultant to do it. Would you hire
>> someone with no carpentry experience to build an extra room on your house?
>
> learning to program or working with little experience in programming is an
> apple. carpentry is an orange. if you're going to argue this analogy once
> again, then let's take it all the way. you already know my answer to that
> question, and i have very loyal carpenters who started out doing detail work
> on my house and in short order, they put a deck on the second story. now
> i've got them building mansions on my other properties. with all of the
> wonderful things they've done in my neighborhood, my propery value has
> sky-rocketed.
>

Not at all. Both are skills which require training and experience to
develop. And did those "very loyal carpenters" come in with no
experience? I doubt it very much.

>>>>>> But even then it's hard to get started. You can start with some
>>>>>> non-profit organizations, for instance, and build a portfolio. Now
>>>>>> you have something to show prospective clients.
>>>>> that's a complete waste of time! bollocks. build a portfolio with
>>>>> paying customers...unless you just *want* to give your time away.
>>>>>
>>>> Not at all. That's how I got started many years ago - while I was
>>>> scratching out customers, I did volunteer work. It got me glowing
>>>> recommendations which I was able to carry on to bigger and better
>>>> things.
>>> i tell you what gets more people more jobs than that. connections.
>>> everyone of us has them, not all of us use them...or know how to with any
>>> kind of diplomacy. the last $40K i made was simply because my bosses,
>>> bosses, boss remembered i'd consulted. he had a friend from his church
>>> that needed some work done. that's how simple it is. make friends who are
>>> willing to vouch for you. i volunteer for the priciple of volunteering -
>>> something needs doing and few are willing to do it. anything else is a
>>> gift with strings attached as far as i'm concerned. but, as an in-road to
>>> employment? utter waste of time.
>>>
>> Connections are only part of the equation. Sure, they help get you jobs.
>> But experience rules.
>
> 'rules'...what does that mean exactly? i still contend that experience is on
> a level playing field. since i'm the one doing the hiring, i'd think you'd
> be happly to concede the point. you are effectively telling me i don't know
> what i do know. kind of a self-nullifying endeavor, isn't it?
>

Again - the HIRING. Consultants are NOT HIRED. They are NOT EMPLOYEES.

And yes, I'm telling you you don't know consulting. You may know
employment.

>> In your case, you got the $40K job because you had the experience.
>
> no, it was because i had a good realtionship far up the food-chain that
> opened the door of opportunity. specifically, i've worked for the past two
> years consulting as a second job where the relationship began with, 'i trust
> you because you know my friend, and he said you'd be perfect for this'. how
> much specific knowledge about the quality, volume, timeliness of my actual
> work do you think my bosses, bosses, boss actually knows...in a huge company
> at that? i was hired by recommendations of character and commitment - the
> only real things that my bosses, bosses, boss actually had personal
> knowledge of. you've just made a poor assumption based on lack of
> information. i wouldn't assume you took yourself too seriously there, since
> that fact is blantantly obvious.
>

Yes - you were HIRED. Employee. Not consultant.

>>>> Sure, the work at IBM helped - it showed I had experience as a
>>>> programmer. But the volunteer work showed I could carry that over into a
>>>> consulting role, outside the corporate environment.
>>> i'm not sure how you see consulting as outside of the corporate
>>> environment.
>>>
>> Consulting is nowhere near the same as a corporate environment.
>
> here's where you tell in what ways so that others, i.e. me, know what you're
> talking about. we may or may not be in agreement.
>

Well, you obviously don't understand consulting. From your posts, I'm
not sure you even understand the difference between a consultant and an
employee. You keep talking about hiring people as employees. But
that's not what a consultant is.

>>>> Many consultants I know started the same way.
>>> but make of a very small percentage of those i come across...as a hiring
>>> manager. as a consultant myself, if someone asks if i can do something or
>>> if something can be done, the answer is always *yes*. unequivically. my
>>> reputation weighs into their reliance on the answer more than my previous
>>> work. and, when it comes down to it, i'd want someone working to sustain
>>> their reputation on my mission critical stuff rather than someone less
>>> committed to the success of the outcome...someone with paper-backing.
>>>
>> But you're a hiring manager. Completely different than contracting to
>> provide a specific service or product. Not to become an employee.
>
> wow. actually, that's not a job title. it is a fascet of my duties. my job
> revolves around r & d and prototyping. it is my job to provide architectural
> concepts and implement them, turning them into profitable solutions to the
> way my company does business. i have the task to specifically seek out
> *consultants* as needed to get a working model put together for evaluation.
> i cannot use fte's for this as they are dedicated to standard existing
> product enhancement and maintenance. part of my task is to pick good
> *consultants* that can be seen as good candidates for fte...even if the
> prototype doesn't ever leave that stage of development, i.e. is declined.
>

You're hiring them as employees. They are not consultants. A big
difference.

> i fail to see how that is 'completely different than contracting to provide
> a specific service or product'. serious, no matter what my role in my
> company, you cannot hope to suggest that if i go to a consultant and give
> him work, that he is no longer a consultant if my perspective is to perhaps
> offer him a job! most people who hire a consultant are evaluating them in
> the same light as i...they are always on the look out for potential
> employees...good ones.
>

Because that is what consultants do. And they are not employees.

When you put someone on a W-2, he is no longer a consultant. He is an
employee. He may call himself a consultant. Legally, he is a employee.
And if it's a temporary job, he could be a contract employee. But he
is not a consultant.

>>> there's more than one way to skin a cat...i happen to believe in using
>>> many knives.
>> No argument there. And successful consultants are able to wear more than
>> one hat. But beware those who say they can wear too many hats. They
>> typically are experts at none of them.
>
> jack of all trades, master of none is a very old axiom. but hell, you can
> even make good use of those too. :)
>
>



--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

Re: Need Your Opinions

"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
news:XI6dneI2J-_vUxnanZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@comcast.com...



i'm done going tit-for-tat with you. when i use the term 'hire', i'm talking
about contracting a consultant or accepting a person as an fte. i 'hire'
consultants all the time...you should have noted that when i used that
phrase, i also used very specific terms describing how a contract can be
written. further, you should note that not all consultants are with a firm
or temp agency. personally, i've never had to use either and could charge
more with less experience than if i had.

when i 'hire' consultants, which most of ours are independents who don't
want to consult as a career, i look them over as potential employees. again,
the 'looking them over' doesn't magically strip 'consultant' from the work
that they do and the contract they bear. people are lined up to work with my
company. their foot in that door is to try and get work, any programming
work, and happily sign contracts as consultants...hoping we look them over
and say, 'would you be interested...'

as for the contracts, i create all kinds of contracts. you've only described
on kind. a contract with a company who provides an individual at x amount
for x length of time. again, that is short-sighted and probably 'real world'
only applies with the contracts with which you are familiar given your
'teaching' gig. as it is, you can also contract by project as well as by the
hour, add in incentives/penalties, work with a company or an individual.

how ever you look at that, the discussion is about how one gets work more
than if they are wanting to consult or whether they want fte. either way, i
put experience on a level playing field when i hire either a consultant or
an employee based on what *i* need. sometimes, yes, that's a block of time
through a company, but sometimes it's by project, sometimes it's merely to
screen for potential employees...and especially in those cases, we usually
could care less if they know how to program - they are a shoe-in if they
know our industry or our company or it's processes.

the op has a lot to think about, so i don't think any further deliberation
on this does anyone any good.

EOT

Re: Need Your Opinions

Steve wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
> news:XI6dneI2J-_vUxnanZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
>
> i'm done going tit-for-tat with you. when i use the term 'hire', i'm talking
> about contracting a consultant or accepting a person as an fte. i 'hire'
> consultants all the time...you should have noted that when i used that
> phrase, i also used very specific terms describing how a contract can be
> written. further, you should note that not all consultants are with a firm
> or temp agency. personally, i've never had to use either and could charge
> more with less experience than if i had.
>

OK, I'll grant you that the term "hire" can be used for consulting.

However, you have repeatedly talked about hiring employees, also. That
is entirely different.

> when i 'hire' consultants, which most of ours are independents who don't
> want to consult as a career, i look them over as potential employees. again,
> the 'looking them over' doesn't magically strip 'consultant' from the work
> that they do and the contract they bear. people are lined up to work with my
> company. their foot in that door is to try and get work, any programming
> work, and happily sign contracts as consultants...hoping we look them over
> and say, 'would you be interested...'
>

Yes, there are a number of them out there. They are "consultants" in
name only, because they haven't found a full time job. That is not true
of the majority of consultants I know. They have spent the time to
build a business and a life. Most have multiple clients, even though
they might only be working on one particular job at a time.

And when you're looking at them as potential employees, they are not
really consulting. They are applying for an apprenticeship or temporary
employment with the hopes of getting a full time job.

> as for the contracts, i create all kinds of contracts. you've only described
> on kind. a contract with a company who provides an individual at x amount
> for x length of time. again, that is short-sighted and probably 'real world'
> only applies with the contracts with which you are familiar given your
> 'teaching' gig. as it is, you can also contract by project as well as by the
> hour, add in incentives/penalties, work with a company or an individual.
>

Nope, they are also common in programming, project management, etc.
Teaching is not the only thing I've done in the past.

There are two basic types of contracts. Hourly, where you pay the
consultant according to the number of hours worked, and project or fixed
price, where you pay the consultant for the job to be done.

Fixed price contracts work well when you have well-defined requirements
for the deliverables and a consultant with enough experience to
accurately estimate the amount of work required.

But if the deliverables are not well defined, there is no way anyone can
estimate accurately the amount of time required to do the job. In a
case like this, I will help with defining those requirements on an
hourly basis, then give a fixed price, if that's what they want. And if
they don't like the fixed price I give them, they have paid for the
requirements and are free to take them somewhere else. But few do.

And an inexperienced consultant will invariably underestimate the amount
of work required by a large margin. While this would not affect your
cost, it will mean the consultant will have to give you a lot of "free
time" to complete the project. That can be nights and weekends, or it
could delay the project completion (or both).

> how ever you look at that, the discussion is about how one gets work more
> than if they are wanting to consult or whether they want fte. either way, i
> put experience on a level playing field when i hire either a consultant or
> an employee based on what *i* need. sometimes, yes, that's a block of time
> through a company, but sometimes it's by project, sometimes it's merely to
> screen for potential employees...and especially in those cases, we usually
> could care less if they know how to program - they are a shoe-in if they
> know our industry or our company or it's processes.
>

Yes, and what you don't realize is that getting work for a consultant is
much different than getting work as an employee.

> the op has a lot to think about, so i don't think any further deliberation
> on this does anyone any good.
>
> EOT
>

That's true.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================