Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

Mike Barnard wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:36:12 +0000, Mike Barnard
> wrote:
>
>> When I look at my site in FF the text appears ... thin. Yet in IE it's
>> much heavier and more readable.
>
> Finally got a comparison screencap.
>
> http://www.thermachek.com/test/index.html
>
> Looking closer it looks as though the IE text is antialiased, but the
> FF one isn't. Is there an option in FF to do this? I can't see one,
> but we all know I sometimes miss the obvious!
>


I got the same effect when I recently downloaded IE7. It does'nt happen
in IE6. Apparently it's because IE7 uses Clear Type font smoothing by
default:

http://ie7css.info/features/ie7-upgrades-to-font-smoothing.h tml

You can activate font smoothing in FF but have to apply it to all of
Windows:

http://chris.calabrese.org/?p=27

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 17:33:58 +0000, albert hall
wrote:

>Mike Barnard wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:36:12 +0000, Mike Barnard
>> wrote:
>>
>>> When I look at my site in FF the text appears ... thin. Yet in IE it's
>>> much heavier and more readable.
>>
>> Finally got a comparison screencap.
>>
>> http://www.thermachek.com/test/index.html
>>
>> Looking closer it looks as though the IE text is antialiased, but the
>> FF one isn't. Is there an option in FF to do this? I can't see one,
>> but we all know I sometimes miss the obvious!
>>
>
>
>I got the same effect when I recently downloaded IE7. It does'nt happen
>in IE6. Apparently it's because IE7 uses Clear Type font smoothing by
>default:
>
>http://ie7css.info/features/ie7-upgrades-to-font-smoothing. html
>
>You can activate font smoothing in FF but have to apply it to all of
>Windows:
>
>http://chris.calabrese.org/?p=27

BINGO! You got it, thanks. I've just tet my PC to Clear Type and FF
instantly became clearer, darker and...nicer. I'll just have to
suggest that all other users try this option.

Oh, yes, I have a nice Asus 22" widescreen, very digital indeed. I'll
go to the library or somewhere with older analogue monitors and see
what it looks like there.

I'm glad it wasn't my eyesight!

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washedout?

Mike Barnard wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 17:33:58 +0000, albert hall
> wrote:
>
>> Mike Barnard wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:36:12 +0000, Mike Barnard
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> When I look at my site in FF the text appears ... thin. Yet in IE it's
>>>> much heavier and more readable.
>>> Finally got a comparison screencap.
>>>
>>> http://www.thermachek.com/test/index.html
>>>
>>> Looking closer it looks as though the IE text is antialiased, but the
>>> FF one isn't. Is there an option in FF to do this? I can't see one,
>>> but we all know I sometimes miss the obvious!
>>>
>>
>> I got the same effect when I recently downloaded IE7. It does'nt happen
>> in IE6. Apparently it's because IE7 uses Clear Type font smoothing by
>> default:
>>
>> http://ie7css.info/features/ie7-upgrades-to-font-smoothing.h tml
>>
>> You can activate font smoothing in FF but have to apply it to all of
>> Windows:
>>
>> http://chris.calabrese.org/?p=27
>
> BINGO! You got it, thanks. I've just tet my PC to Clear Type and FF
> instantly became clearer, darker and...nicer. I'll just have to
> suggest that all other users try this option.
>
> Oh, yes, I have a nice Asus 22" widescreen, very digital indeed. I'll
> go to the library or somewhere with older analogue monitors and see
> what it looks like there.
>
> I'm glad it wasn't my eyesight!
>
>
>

FYI

http://www.microsoft.com/typography/cleartype/tuner/Step1.as px

You can download a handy utility to adjust Clear Type on your
system/display.

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
When in doubt assume that, once again, you've outsmarted yourself.

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

"dorayme" wrote in message
news:doraymeRidThis-17EF78.09013131032008@news-vip.optusnet. com.au...
> In article ,
> Ed Mullen wrote:
>
>> >>>> When I look at my site in FF the text appears ... thin.
>
> Website text and text in general often looks shithouse on Windows
> machines. Yes, I know, it is said that things can be done about it. How
> come, on Macs you don't have to say things like this because text almost
> always looks gorgeous?
>
> I once observed a queue of text waiting to go on stage onto what they
> thought was a Windows one and they looked depressed, their natural em
> heights sagging sadly. Suddenly, there was an announcement: "Girls, the
> stage has been switched to Mac!"
>
> A delighted surprised murmur rippled through the queue, the letters and
> symbols all standing more upright, their em heights restored, their
> skins glowing more, the thin bits of them losing that splotchy emaciated
> look, their fingers raised for a lick and a stroke of their eyebrows,
> hands confidently brushing back their hair. There was going to be a
> class act after all...

Do you carry on with these bizarre outbursts in real life?

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

In article ,
Ed Mullen wrote:

> >>>> When I look at my site in FF the text appears ... thin.

Website text and text in general often looks shithouse on Windows
machines. Yes, I know, it is said that things can be done about it. How
come, on Macs you don't have to say things like this because text almost
always looks gorgeous?

I once observed a queue of text waiting to go on stage onto what they
thought was a Windows one and they looked depressed, their natural em
heights sagging sadly. Suddenly, there was an announcement: "Girls, the
stage has been switched to Mac!"

A delighted surprised murmur rippled through the queue, the letters and
symbols all standing more upright, their em heights restored, their
skins glowing more, the thin bits of them losing that splotchy emaciated
look, their fingers raised for a lick and a stroke of their eyebrows,
hands confidently brushing back their hair. There was going to be a
class act after all...

--
dorayme

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washedout?

dorayme wrote:
> In article ,
> Ed Mullen wrote:
>
>>>>>> When I look at my site in FF the text appears ... thin.
>
> Website text and text in general often looks shithouse on Windows
> machines.

Beg to differ. I have experience with both, historically and currently,
and to claim that is ... hmmm ... um ... deceitful? Silly? Ignorant
(which I think you are surely not). But it is, at best, "not well
informed."

If Apple is so all-knowing and wonderful, how come Safari for Windows
looks so ... well, poopy? And, by the way, I have been around since
before the Mac, way back to 1984 and IBM mid-range systems and green
screens. I am amused by the Mac/Apple evangelists. Hey, if that's your
thing? Enjoy! No problem. Just stop trying to tell the world that
your religion is THE religion that we all should bow down to. I give
you no more credence than any other zealot. And it detracts from my
view of you (editorially "you" as well as personally "you") as a
rational person. I find ALL zealots of any ilk suspect.

> Yes, I know, it is said that things can be done about it. How
> come, on Macs you don't have to say things like this because text almost
> always looks gorgeous?

I owned a Mac many moons ago. I hated it. Nothing looked "gorgeous" on
it and it did everything in a different way. Oh, sure, I could have
drunk the Kool Aid and bought into the fervor. But why? I just wanted
a tool (a hammer) to beat to death the issues (business problems) I had
at the time. I didn't want to become an evangelist or a disciple or
some drone as depicted in that cute "1984" Mac ad.

> I once observed a queue of text waiting to go on stage onto what they
> thought was a Windows one and they looked depressed, their natural em
> heights sagging sadly. Suddenly, there was an announcement: "Girls, the
> stage has been switched to Mac!"
>
> A delighted surprised murmur rippled through the queue, the letters and
> symbols all standing more upright, their em heights restored, their
> skins glowing more, the thin bits of them losing that splotchy emaciated
> look, their fingers raised for a lick and a stroke of their eyebrows,
> hands confidently brushing back their hair. There was going to be a
> class act after all...
>

Cute is, well, "cute."

Ads are, well, ads. I've written enough of them in my life to be able
to discern the difference between bull shit and functional features.

Hey, you like Apple? Good for you. Enjoy your association with the
other miniscule percent of the market share vs. Intel and Microsoft.
Wanna spend your hours, and days, and energy worrying about
conspiracies? Go right ahead. I just want a tool that works.

Just stop mimicking Apple propaganda in your posts about technology.

Well, ok, on the other hand, whatever. I'm not mad or anything, nor
angry. And I don't even much care about it. We all do what we want,
and that's fine.

I just hate proselytizing in any guise. It's not rational. It is,
largely, untruthful at best. And, worst, it is tedious to the max. If
I want to be bored I have me. No outside agencies needed, thank you
very much. Good grief, just stop all this nonsense. You want a
Craftsman hammer? Buy one and be happy. You prefer a Black and Decker
hammer? Good on ya, mate! Go for it!

Fonts, schmonts. My screens look every bit as good as any modern Mac
I've seen. What a load of ... excuse me ... I think we've wasted enough
time on this diversion.

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
Harmony is pure love, for love is a concerto. - Lope de Vega

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washedout?

rf wrote:
> "dorayme" wrote in message
> news:doraymeRidThis-17EF78.09013131032008@news-vip.optusnet. com.au...
>> In article ,
>> Ed Mullen wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> When I look at my site in FF the text appears ... thin.
>> Website text and text in general often looks shithouse on Windows
>> machines. Yes, I know, it is said that things can be done about it. How
>> come, on Macs you don't have to say things like this because text almost
>> always looks gorgeous?
>>
>> I once observed a queue of text waiting to go on stage onto what they
>> thought was a Windows one and they looked depressed, their natural em
>> heights sagging sadly. Suddenly, there was an announcement: "Girls, the
>> stage has been switched to Mac!"
>>
>> A delighted surprised murmur rippled through the queue, the letters and
>> symbols all standing more upright, their em heights restored, their
>> skins glowing more, the thin bits of them losing that splotchy emaciated
>> look, their fingers raised for a lick and a stroke of their eyebrows,
>> hands confidently brushing back their hair. There was going to be a
>> class act after all...
>
> Do you carry on with these bizarre outbursts in real life?
>
>

Gee, I wish I had read this before I posted my last outburst. :-D

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
Can you be a closet claustrophobic?

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

Ed Mullen writes:

> Fonts, schmonts.

That’s a funny statement. If fonts just looked good (and more of them
could be available on demand), lots of corporate web pages wouldn’t be
full of dynamic Flash and image generation (or static images of text),
easier to develop, and more accessible.

I would even say that web design in general would be entirely different
from what it is today in that case, and for the better.

> My screens look every bit as good as any modern Mac
> I've seen.

You haven’t looked very close then. Medium up to very large type is
rendered so much better on OS X that you don’t need to bring your
glasses to notice. OTOH, ClearType – if enabled – does a much better job
on small sizes, which can become a blurry mess on a Mac (and
anti-aliasing has to be disabled at your personal break point
altogether).

Oh, and I hate Apple the company even more than Microsoft, if that
helps :)

--
||| hexadecimal EBB
o-o decimal 3771
--oOo--( )--oOo-- octal 7273
205 goodbye binary 111010111011

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

In article ,
Ed Mullen wrote:

> dorayme wrote:
> > In article ,
> > Ed Mullen wrote:
> >
> >>>>>> When I look at my site in FF the text appears ... thin.
> >
> > Website text and text in general often looks shithouse on Windows
> > machines.
>
> Beg to differ. I have experience with both, historically and currently,
> and to claim that is ... hmmm ... um ... deceitful? Silly? Ignorant
> (which I think you are surely not). But it is, at best, "not well
> informed."

I now want to unreservedly withdraw all my words. My experience with
Windows is quite limited and it is just my impression on the particular
machines that I have seen, especially (and probably unfairly) on my own
Windows 2000 box.

I will never say anything that so upsets you again Ed and I am sending
you cakes and some home brew and a few of my own genetically engineered
chickens. No need to send $10 for them.

--
dorayme

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

In article <0XUHj.4201$n8.2946@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"rf" wrote:

> "dorayme" wrote in message
> news:doraymeRidThis-17EF78.09013131032008@news-vip.optusnet. com.au...
> > In article ,
> > Ed Mullen wrote:
> >
> >> >>>> When I look at my site in FF the text appears ... thin.
> >
....
> > I once observed a queue of text waiting to go on stage onto what they
> > thought was a Windows one and they looked depressed, their natural em
> > heights sagging sadly. Suddenly, there was an announcement: "Girls, the
> > stage has been switched to Mac!"
> >
> > A delighted surprised murmur rippled through the queue, the letters and
> > symbols all standing more upright, their em heights restored, their
> > skins glowing more, the thin bits of them losing that splotchy emaciated
> > look, their fingers raised for a lick and a stroke of their eyebrows,
> > hands confidently brushing back their hair. There was going to be a
> > class act after all...
>
> Do you carry on with these bizarre outbursts in real life?

In real life I was told that unless I took it seriously I would be shot.
I went to see someone about it and they recommended alt.html. Bizarrity
is slowly being beaten out of me but it takes time and I appreciate
everyone's patience, not least yours Richard.

(Actually, I have been discussing this business of Win font settings
since with a colleague who said there are provisions that can be made in
modern XP machines to make the text nicer to my eye. I am thinking of
getting an XP laptop and so this is good news.)

--
dorayme

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

"dorayme" wrote in message
news:doraymeRidThis-EA2126.12291331032008@news-vip.optusnet. com.au...

> (Actually, I have been discussing this business of Win font settings
> since with a colleague who said there are provisions that can be made in
> modern XP machines to make the text nicer to my eye. I am thinking of
> getting an XP laptop and so this is good news.)

An XP laptop?

Why not just dual boot XP on the one you have?

--
Richard.

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

"dorayme" wrote in message
news:doraymeRidThis-90ED68.14414031032008@news-vip.optusnet. com.au...
> In article ,
> "rf" wrote:
>
>> "dorayme" wrote in message
>> news:doraymeRidThis-EA2126.12291331032008@news-vip.optusnet. com.au...
>>
>> > (Actually, I have been discussing this business of Win font settings
>> > since with a colleague who said there are provisions that can be made
>> > in
>> > modern XP machines to make the text nicer to my eye. I am thinking of
>> > getting an XP laptop and so this is good news.)
>>
>> An XP laptop?
>>
>> Why not just dual boot XP on the one you have?
>
> Don't know how to do this or what it involves. Thought to buy my way out
> of it and notch up a tax deduction to stop the accountant saying I am so
> mean and don't have enough deductions for her to play with. And take my
> time transferring all the software to the laptop.
>
> Where would you suggest I go to get algorithmic instructions for your
> suggestions. I have two hard disks in my winbox, one of which has 2000
> on it. The other is not doing much, it was spare so I threw it in one
> day for storage.

If you choose custom install then you can specify which partition/drive the
install is to use. If this is not the existing boot partition/drive then
dual boot will be installed for you.

However, it's a long time since I have done this, probably 2000 with 98, in
2000.

OTOH why not simply upgrade. It's the same OS, simply an upgrade. IIRC 2000
identifies itself as Windows NT version 5.0. XP is Windows version 5.1.

Don't, however, go anywhere near Vista.

--
Richard.

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

In article ,
"rf" wrote:

> "dorayme" wrote in message
> news:doraymeRidThis-EA2126.12291331032008@news-vip.optusnet. com.au...
>
> > (Actually, I have been discussing this business of Win font settings
> > since with a colleague who said there are provisions that can be made in
> > modern XP machines to make the text nicer to my eye. I am thinking of
> > getting an XP laptop and so this is good news.)
>
> An XP laptop?
>
> Why not just dual boot XP on the one you have?

Don't know how to do this or what it involves. Thought to buy my way out
of it and notch up a tax deduction to stop the accountant saying I am so
mean and don't have enough deductions for her to play with. And take my
time transferring all the software to the laptop.

Where would you suggest I go to get algorithmic instructions for your
suggestions. I have two hard disks in my winbox, one of which has 2000
on it. The other is not doing much, it was spare so I threw it in one
day for storage.

on a Mac (God, I hope this does not make Ed go ballistic at me a
again... )it is quite straightforward to have a number of OS's on
separate volumes and you can choose what to boot from. When I talk to
windows friends, they say it is not quite so easy (on older machines at
least) to do this with Windows.

--
dorayme

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

On 2008-03-30, Ed Mullen wrote:
[...]
> If Apple is so all-knowing and wonderful, how come Safari for Windows
> looks so ... well, poopy?

I heard the reason for that is that Apple built the font rendering into
Safari for Windows instead of using the native Windows stuff.

Either it looks poopy out of context or perhaps it doesn't work as well
with the fonts that come with Windows which expect Windows-style
hinting, or perhaps something got left behind when they ported it to
Windows.

The main difference is that in Safari for Windows the fonts do more
anti-aliasing and less hinting.

The problem is when some part of a glyph doesn't hit a pixel boundary.
Either you anti-aliase it (basically make it partly transparent at that
point) which is easy to do because it's automatic; or you slightly alter
the shape of the glyph at smaller point sizes so it hits the pixel
boundaries better. The second approach is "hinting" and takes a lot of
work because font designers have to manually design the hints for each
glyph.

Windows fonts use quite a lot of hinting, which is why the glyphs look
sharp, but perhaps a bit boxy at small point sizes. Open Source
developers have less time and inclination to spend on things like
designing font-hints so they rely more on one-size-fits-all
anti-aliasing.

I don't know exactly where Apple got their font code from-- whether they
just helped themselves to some code from Free BSD or whether they have
tried to differentiate. Usually their strategy is to spend their own
money on the eye candy and so you might think they'd see fonts as
something worth investing in. Probably Safari does look better on a Mac
than on Windows, but I don't have either kind of system to compare.

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

In article ,
Ben C wrote:

> On 2008-03-30, Ed Mullen wrote:
> [...]
> > If Apple is so all-knowing and wonderful, how come Safari for Windows
> > looks so ... well, poopy?
>
> I heard the reason for that is that Apple built the font rendering into
> Safari for Windows instead of using the native Windows stuff.
>
> Either it looks poopy out of context or perhaps it doesn't work as well
> with the fonts that come with Windows which expect Windows-style
> hinting, or perhaps something got left behind when they ported it to
> Windows.
>
> The main difference is that in Safari for Windows the fonts do more
> anti-aliasing and less hinting.
>
> The problem is when some part of a glyph doesn't hit a pixel boundary.
> Either you anti-aliase it (basically make it partly transparent at that
> point) which is easy to do because it's automatic; or you slightly alter
> the shape of the glyph at smaller point sizes so it hits the pixel
> boundaries better. The second approach is "hinting" and takes a lot of
> work because font designers have to manually design the hints for each
> glyph.
>
> Windows fonts use quite a lot of hinting, which is why the glyphs look
> sharp, but perhaps a bit boxy at small point sizes. Open Source
> developers have less time and inclination to spend on things like
> designing font-hints so they rely more on one-size-fits-all
> anti-aliasing.
>
> I don't know exactly where Apple got their font code from-- whether they
> just helped themselves to some code from Free BSD or whether they have
> tried to differentiate. Usually their strategy is to spend their own
> money on the eye candy and so you might think they'd see fonts as
> something worth investing in. Probably Safari does look better on a Mac
> than on Windows, but I don't have either kind of system to compare.

Interesting.

Mac X seems to have put serious efforts into font rendering. I know that
even in older versions of BBEdit and Mac browsers run under OS 9, text
look more splotchy to my eyes now. There is a lot of mental adjustment
to what one uses regularly and it can come as a surprise when changing.
This is well known by spectacular experiments in field studies of groups
given special spectacles to wear.

However, the leap in quality was apparent to me very early in my change
to X.

--
dorayme

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 04:31:01 GMT, "rf" wrote:

>
>Don't, however, go anywhere near Vista.

Yoohoo. I'm still hanging around like a bad smell.

FWIW I agree.

I bought and installed Vista ultimate on my current, homebuilt pc [1]
about a year ago. It had all the eye candy, but ran like a dog and
took soooo long to do anything.

Drivers have been an issue but with a years development time they
*should* be getting there.

My real gripe is the digital rights issues thet MS have built in. See
this...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/12/28/vista_drm_analysis/

and this...

http://www.forbes.com/2007/02/10/microsoft-vista-drm-tech-se curity-cz_bs_0212vista.html


and... no, no. Thats enough, you get the message.

Anyway, one reformat and install of XP pro and I'm happy. Mostly.


[1] A high spec gaming pc paid for with some of my retirement lump
sum.

Re: Calling all firefox users. Do your fonts look faint and washed out?

In article <9OZHj.4339$n8.1102@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"rf" wrote:

> OTOH why not simply upgrade. It's the same OS, simply an upgrade. IIRC 2000
> identifies itself as Windows NT version 5.0. XP is Windows version 5.1.

Because the XP I have will not upgrade the 2000, it will install fresh
but... don't want to spend ages on reconfiguring and reinstalling
software and everything just now...

Reminder, I have two hard disks in there, one doing bugger all really.
What is the worst that could happen if I stick in the XP install CD and
tell it to install on the spare HD, the one that is not the boot disk,
the one without the 2000 on it?

--
dorayme