alt text

The last several months I've been trying to include more reasonable alt
text in my images to improve accessibility. The other day I uploaded a new
page and forgot to upload the matching folder containing the page's images.
Here's what I got in Firefox (look just below the line near the top which
says "Featured Images - Interesting Chairs"):

http://www.neredbojias.com/tsttst/capalt1b.jpg

Here's how it looked in Safari 3.0.4 for Windows:

http://www.neredbojias.com/tsttst/capalt2b.jpg

Don't they know how to do it right, or am I missing something? Opera and
IE7 were okay.

--
Neredbojias
http://www.neredbojias.com/
Great sights and sounds

Re: alt text

Scripsit Neredbojias:

> The last several months I've been trying to include more reasonable
> alt text in my images to improve accessibility.

OK.

> The other day I
> uploaded a new page and forgot to upload the matching folder
> containing the page's images. Here's what I got in Firefox

It's a blurred picture of something. What is the point?

> Don't they know how to do it right,

Who's "they" and what's "it"?

If you're criticizing a browser for doing something wrong, as I suspect,
please specify the browser in detail (including version), the specific
URL(s) you tested, and a verbal explanation of what you regard as wrong.

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

Re: alt text

Neredbojias wrote:
> The last several months I've been trying to include more reasonable alt
> text in my images to improve accessibility. The other day I uploaded a new
> page and forgot to upload the matching folder containing the page's images.
> Here's what I got in Firefox (look just below the line near the top which
> says "Featured Images - Interesting Chairs"):
>
> http://www.neredbojias.com/tsttst/capalt1b.jpg
>
> Here's how it looked in Safari 3.0.4 for Windows:
>
> http://www.neredbojias.com/tsttst/capalt2b.jpg
>
> Don't they know how to do it right, or am I missing something? Opera and
> IE7 were okay.
>
"User agents must render alternate text when they cannot support images,
they cannot support a certain image type or when they are configured not
to display images."

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#h-13.2

None of these is the case. That's not to say that the browsers couldn't
handle the case of a missing file in the same way, but the spec doesn't
call for it.

However: are you setting width and height for your images? If so, are
you sure that the ALT text isn't just being cut off because the "missing
image" icon isn't already filling up the space you made available?

Re: alt text

Scripsit Harlan Messinger:

> "User agents must render alternate text when they cannot support
> images, they cannot support a certain image type or when they are
> configured not to display images."
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#h-13.2
>
> None of these is the case. That's not to say that the browsers
> couldn't handle the case of a missing file in the same way, but the
> spec doesn't call for it.

It does. You missed a simple statement in the section you quoted, right
before the part you quoted:

"The alt attribute specifies alternate text that is rendered when the
image cannot be displayed".

> However: are you setting width and height for your images? If so, are
> you sure that the ALT text isn't just being cut off because the
> "missing image" icon isn't already filling up the space you made
> available?

I still haven't seen a decent problem description, so I refrain from
commenting on the unknown problem.

However, at the general level, relating to the above suggestion on
solving an unknown problem: It's an age-old problem that some browsers
use the image dimensions, if specified explicitly, to determine the box
size, so that if the alt text doesn't fit, it's truncated. So for years,
it's been a common recommendation not to specify width and height for
small images with nonempty alt text.

This used to be typical of IE, and in this sad, sick world of
bug-compatible browsers, I wouldn't be surprised if Firefox started
imitating such a "feature".

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

Re: alt text

On 30 Mar 2008, "Jukka K. Korpela" wrote:

> Scripsit Neredbojias:
>
>> The last several months I've been trying to include more reasonable
>> alt text in my images to improve accessibility.
>
> OK.
>
>> The other day I
>> uploaded a new page and forgot to upload the matching folder
>> containing the page's images. Here's what I got in Firefox
>
> It's a blurred picture of something. What is the point?
>
>> Don't they know how to do it right,
>
> Who's "they" and what's "it"?
>
> If you're criticizing a browser for doing something wrong, as I suspect,
> please specify the browser in detail (including version), the specific
> URL(s) you tested, and a verbal explanation of what you regard as wrong.

Please see my reply to your reply to Harlan Messinger in this same thread.

--
Neredbojias
http://www.neredbojias.com/
Great sights and sounds

Re: alt text

On 30 Mar 2008, "Jukka K. Korpela" wrote:

> Scripsit Harlan Messinger:
>
>> "User agents must render alternate text when they cannot support
>> images, they cannot support a certain image type or when they are
>> configured not to display images."
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#h-13.2
>>
>> None of these is the case. That's not to say that the browsers
>> couldn't handle the case of a missing file in the same way, but the
>> spec doesn't call for it.
>
> It does. You missed a simple statement in the section you quoted,
> right before the part you quoted:
>
> "The alt attribute specifies alternate text that is rendered when the
> image cannot be displayed".
>
>> However: are you setting width and height for your images? If so, are
>> you sure that the ALT text isn't just being cut off because the
>> "missing image" icon isn't already filling up the space you made
>> available?
>
> I still haven't seen a decent problem description, so I refrain from
> commenting on the unknown problem.
>
> However, at the general level, relating to the above suggestion on
> solving an unknown problem: It's an age-old problem that some browsers
> use the image dimensions, if specified explicitly, to determine the
> box size, so that if the alt text doesn't fit, it's truncated. So for
> years, it's been a common recommendation not to specify width and
> height for small images with nonempty alt text.

That isn't the problem. The first capture, to wit:

http://www.neredbojias.com/tsttst/capalt1b.jpg

taken of Firefox 2.0.0.13 but demonstrating an anomoly existing in many
previous versions as well, shows the results of a page wherein the
thumbnail images indeed had width and height attributes included but
display alt text for missing images overlapped all on one line.

Why you asked for a url puzzles me because the images are now uploaded
and the problem cannot be seen "live", so to speak. Hence the capture.
I suppose I could upload a test page, a clone of the original with
changed, non-responsive paths, but is that really necessary?

> This used to be typical of IE, and in this sad, sick world of
> bug-compatible browsers, I wouldn't be surprised if Firefox started
> imitating such a "feature".

In a sense, Firefox's "feature" is just the opposite.

--
Neredbojias
http://www.neredbojias.com/
Great sights and sounds

Re: alt text

Scripsit Neredbojias:

> Why you asked for a url puzzles me

It puzzles me that it puzzles you.

> I suppose I could upload a test page, a clone of the
> original with changed, non-responsive paths, but is that really
> necessary?

Oh, only if you want to spawn a constructive discussion. Or should we
discuss problems that do not exist any more?

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

Re: alt text

On 30 Mar 2008, "Jukka K. Korpela" wrote:

> Scripsit Neredbojias:
>
>> Why you asked for a url puzzles me
>
> It puzzles me that it puzzles you.
>
>> I suppose I could upload a test page, a clone of the
>> original with changed, non-responsive paths, but is that really
>> necessary?
>
> Oh, only if you want to spawn a constructive discussion. Or should we
> discuss problems that do not exist any more?

Well, I guess I can see your point. Here is a live link demonstrating the
issue:

http://www.neredbojias.com/ind23test.php

Just to pre-warn you, the alt text is inserted via javascript, so...

--
Neredbojias
http://www.neredbojias.com/
Great sights and sounds

Re: alt text

In article ,
Neredbojias wrote:

> The last several months I've been trying to include more reasonable alt
> text in my images to improve accessibility. The other day I uploaded a new
> page and forgot to upload the matching folder containing the page's images.
> Here's what I got in Firefox (look just below the line near the top which
> says "Featured Images - Interesting Chairs"):
>
> http://www.neredbojias.com/tsttst/capalt1b.jpg
>
> Here's how it looked in Safari 3.0.4 for Windows:
>
> http://www.neredbojias.com/tsttst/capalt2b.jpg
>
> Don't they know how to do it right, or am I missing something? Opera and
> IE7 were okay.

Ages ago, about the time I embarked on a course of alt text pills to
improve author implementations, I made a test page to see how different
browsers rendered things.



I thought I would wheel it out here.

Also, perhaps I should mention, but please send $10, you can order the
formula for making your own alt-text pills from me.

--
dorayme

Re: alt text

>Also, perhaps I should mention, but please send $10, you can order the
>formula for making your own alt-text pills from me.


I have found these: http://www.fukitol.com/ to be quite useful in all
sorts of situations.

HTH

--
BessieBee
"Why isn't the number 11 pronounced onety-one?"

Re: alt text

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
> Scripsit Harlan Messinger:
>
>> "User agents must render alternate text when they cannot support
>> images, they cannot support a certain image type or when they are
>> configured not to display images."
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#h-13.2
>>
>> None of these is the case. That's not to say that the browsers
>> couldn't handle the case of a missing file in the same way, but the
>> spec doesn't call for it.
>
> It does. You missed a simple statement in the section you quoted, right
> before the part you quoted:
>
> "The alt attribute specifies alternate text that is rendered when the
> image cannot be displayed".

I took the subsequent details to qualify the general statement, i.e.
"when the image cannot be displayed owing to client-side factors." Since
they took the trouble to enumerate three client-side factors, it seems
reasonable to take the failure to mention the obvious server-side factor
to be meaningful.

Re: alt text

On 30 Mar 2008, dorayme wrote:

>> The last several months I've been trying to include more reasonable
>> alt text in my images to improve accessibility. The other day I
>> uploaded a new page and forgot to upload the matching folder
>> containing the page's images. Here's what I got in Firefox (look
>> just below the line near the top which says "Featured Images -
>> Interesting Chairs"):
>>
>> http://www.neredbojias.com/tsttst/capalt1b.jpg
>>
>> Here's how it looked in Safari 3.0.4 for Windows:
>>
>> http://www.neredbojias.com/tsttst/capalt2b.jpg
>>
>> Don't they know how to do it right, or am I missing something? Opera
>> and IE7 were okay.
>
> Ages ago, about the time I embarked on a course of alt text pills to
> improve author implementations, I made a test page to see how
> different browsers rendered things.
>
>
>
> I thought I would wheel it out here.
>
> Also, perhaps I should mention, but please send $10, you can order the
> formula for making your own alt-text pills from me.

Hmm, interesting. Unfortunately, it made me thirsty and now I'm too drunk
to understand it.

Seriously, what's the point and how does it relate to my particular lament?

--
Neredbojias
http://www.neredbojias.com/
Great sights and sounds

Re: alt text

dorayme wrote:

> It is an American thing, I understand, that "alternate" can be used as
> an alternative to "alternative"

Indeed. Outside the US, alternate means, as a verb "to switch between
alternatives" and as an adjective it roughly means "every second" (by
"second", I mean the ordinal of two, not the unit of time).

verb e.g.: I like to alternate between ham sandwiches and cheese
sandwiches for lunch.

noun e.g.: I have ham and cheese in my sandwiches on alternate lunches.

ObHTML: I think it's quite annoying that the W3C chose "alternate" as a
link rel value rather than "alternative" which has the same meaning in
both en-GB and en-US.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 6 days, 21:46.]

Cognition 0.1 Alpha 6
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/03/29/cognition-alpha6/

Re: alt text

Toby A Inkster wrote:
> dorayme wrote:
>
>> It is an American thing, I understand, that "alternate" can be used as
>> an alternative to "alternative"
>
> Indeed. Outside the US, alternate means, as a verb "to switch between
> alternatives" and as an adjective it roughly means "every second" (by
> "second", I mean the ordinal of two, not the unit of time).
>
> verb e.g.: I like to alternate between ham sandwiches and cheese
> sandwiches for lunch.
>
> noun e.g.: I have ham and cheese in my sandwiches on alternate lunches.

That would be its use as an adjective.

> ObHTML: I think it's quite annoying that the W3C chose "alternate" as a
> link rel value rather than "alternative" which has the same meaning in
> both en-GB and en-US.

I can understand that, yet I still find it less annoying that "REFERER"
with the missing R.

Re: alt text

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 11:34:43 +0100, Toby A Inkster writ:

> noun e.g.: I have ham and cheese in my sandwiches on alternate lunches.

Nah. noun e.g.: "Juror number seven had an aneurysm, so they used an
alternate."

--
"Because all you of Earth are idiots!"
¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·-> freemont© <-·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯

Re: alt text

freemont wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 11:34:43 +0100, Toby A Inkster writ:
>
>> noun e.g.: I have ham and cheese in my sandwiches on alternate lunches.
>
> Nah. noun e.g.: "Juror number seven had an aneurysm, so they used an
> alternate."
>
But that's the usage where non-US speakers would understand it to mean
that juror number seven and his alternate take turns occupying the jury
box, not that one is a permanent replacement (alternative) for the other.

Re: alt text

On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:34:43 +0100, Toby A Inkster wrote:
> dorayme wrote:
>
>> It is an American thing, I understand, that "alternate" can be used as
>> an alternative to "alternative"
>
> Indeed. Outside the US, alternate means, as a verb "to switch between
> alternatives" and as an adjective it roughly means "every second" (by
> "second", I mean the ordinal of two, not the unit of time).
>
> verb e.g.: I like to alternate between ham sandwiches and cheese
> sandwiches for lunch.
>
> noun e.g.: I have ham and cheese in my sandwiches on alternate lunches.

*That* is an adjective.

Re: alt text

Allodoxaphobia wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:34:43 +0100, Toby A Inkster wrote:
>> dorayme wrote:
>>
>>> It is an American thing, I understand, that "alternate" can be used as
>>> an alternative to "alternative"
>> Indeed. Outside the US, alternate means, as a verb "to switch between
>> alternatives" and as an adjective it roughly means "every second" (by
>> "second", I mean the ordinal of two, not the unit of time).
>>
>> verb e.g.: I like to alternate between ham sandwiches and cheese
>> sandwiches for lunch.
>>
>> noun e.g.: I have ham and cheese in my sandwiches on alternate lunches.
>
> *That* is an adjective.

Correct, noun e.g.: If John cannot make it then Sam will be the alternate.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Re: alt text

Jonathan N. Little wrote:
> Allodoxaphobia wrote:
>> On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:34:43 +0100, Toby A Inkster wrote:
>>> dorayme wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is an American thing, I understand, that "alternate" can be used as
>>>> an alternative to "alternative"
>>> Indeed. Outside the US, alternate means, as a verb "to switch between
>>> alternatives" and as an adjective it roughly means "every second" (by
>>> "second", I mean the ordinal of two, not the unit of time).
>>>
>>> verb e.g.: I like to alternate between ham sandwiches and cheese
>>> sandwiches for lunch.
>>>
>>> noun e.g.: I have ham and cheese in my sandwiches on alternate lunches.
>>
>> *That* is an adjective.
>
> Correct, noun e.g.: If John cannot make it then Sam will be the alternate.
>

That's the US sense, i.e., the usage that means "alternative", "instead
of", "replacement for". There is no sense of "alternating" or "taking
turns" in this example, as in the other examples.

Re: alt text

Harlan Messinger wrote:
> Jonathan N. Little wrote:

>> Correct, noun e.g.: If John cannot make it then Sam will be the
>> alternate.
>>
>
> That's the US sense, i.e., the usage that means "alternative", "instead
> of", "replacement for". There is no sense of "alternating" or "taking
> turns" in this example, as in the other examples.

I thought the different cases of the word not the meaning where being
discussed.

Anyway, with respect to "alt" as the attribute of the "img" element, is
it not more applicable as the noun form "alternate" when the image is
not available rather than to "alternate" to switch between the image and
the text?

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Re: alt text

In article <38fa5$4800beba$40cba7b2$5032@NAXS.COM>,
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote:

> Harlan Messinger wrote:
> > Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>
> >> Correct, noun e.g.: If John cannot make it then Sam will be the
> >> alternate.
> >>
> >
> > That's the US sense, i.e., the usage that means "alternative", "instead
> > of", "replacement for". There is no sense of "alternating" or "taking
> > turns" in this example, as in the other examples.
>
> I thought the different cases of the word not the meaning where being
> discussed.
>

It was first raised as a point about meaning. Then it got into fancier
linguistic territory where you are presently entangled judging by the
below.

> Anyway, with respect to "alt" as the attribute of the "img" element, is
> it not more applicable as the noun form "alternate" when the image is
> not available rather than to "alternate" to switch between the image and
> the text?

--
dorayme

Re: alt text

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:16:59 -0400, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
> Allodoxaphobia wrote:
>> On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:34:43 +0100, Toby A Inkster wrote:
>>> dorayme wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is an American thing, I understand, that "alternate" can be used as
>>>> an alternative to "alternative"
>>> Indeed. Outside the US, alternate means, as a verb "to switch between
>>> alternatives" and as an adjective it roughly means "every second" (by
>>> "second", I mean the ordinal of two, not the unit of time).
>>>
>>> verb e.g.: I like to alternate between ham sandwiches and cheese
>>> sandwiches for lunch.
>>>
>>> noun e.g.: I have ham and cheese in my sandwiches on alternate lunches.
>>
>> *That* is an adjective.
>
> Correct, noun e.g.: If John cannot make it then Sam will be the alternate.

I believe that is still an adjective.

"Sam will be the alternate juror."
"Sam will be the alternate." --
where, "juror" is the _implied_ object of the sentence and
"alternate" is the modifier.

Jonesy

Re: alt text

Allodoxaphobia wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:16:59 -0400, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>> Allodoxaphobia wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:34:43 +0100, Toby A Inkster wrote:

>>>> noun e.g.: I have ham and cheese in my sandwiches on alternate lunches.
>>> *That* is an adjective.
>> Correct, noun e.g.: If John cannot make it then Sam will be the alternate.
>
> I believe that is still an adjective.
>
> "Sam will be the alternate juror."
> "Sam will be the alternate." --
> where, "juror" is the _implied_ object of the sentence and
> "alternate" is the modifier.
>

Yes it could be, but also one can be an alternate (noun) Dictionaries
list that it can indeed be a noun:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/alternate
alternate - Definitions from Dictionary.com



--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Re: alt text

On 2008-04-13, Allodoxaphobia wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:16:59 -0400, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>> Allodoxaphobia wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:34:43 +0100, Toby A Inkster wrote:
>>>> dorayme wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It is an American thing, I understand, that "alternate" can be used as
>>>>> an alternative to "alternative"
>>>> Indeed. Outside the US, alternate means, as a verb "to switch between
>>>> alternatives" and as an adjective it roughly means "every second" (by
>>>> "second", I mean the ordinal of two, not the unit of time).
>>>>
>>>> verb e.g.: I like to alternate between ham sandwiches and cheese
>>>> sandwiches for lunch.
>>>>
>>>> noun e.g.: I have ham and cheese in my sandwiches on alternate lunches.
>>>
>>> *That* is an adjective.
>>
>> Correct, noun e.g.: If John cannot make it then Sam will be the alternate.
>
> I believe that is still an adjective.
>
> "Sam will be the alternate juror."
> "Sam will be the alternate." --
> where, "juror" is the _implied_ object of the sentence and
> "alternate" is the modifier.

But you don't use adjectives like that. You don't say "this is the red"
instead of "this is the red car", but "this is the red one" (pronoun).