Need help quoting a project

A small business boss would like me to do a web site for him. He has
a small waste management business serving locally only.

He would like to have a web site where his customers can view account
info, pay bills, etc, and his employees can also view/modify customer
info through the browser.

I am very interested in this project, and if the boss and I reach an
agreement, I will be the only person working on the whole thing from
db to the front end.

I am not new as a .net developer, but I have not taken on anything all
by myself. So, I am wondering how I should quote this project. I
think the problem is that I can't estimate the number of hours I will
need.

So, let me ask the experienced here on board. Given this task (well,
no requirement details), how many hours do you think is a reasonable
quote?

Thank you.

Re: Need help quoting a project

On Apr 9, 5:01=A0pm, gnewsgroup wrote:
> A small business boss would like me to do a web site for him. =A0He has
> a small waste management business serving locally only.
>
> He would like to have a web site where his customers can view account
> info, pay bills, etc, and his employees can also view/modify customer
> info through the browser.
>
> I am very interested in this project, and if the boss and I reach an
> agreement, I will be the only person working on the whole thing from
> db to the front end.
>
> I am not new as a .net developer, but I have not taken on anything all
> by myself. =A0So, I am wondering how I should quote this project. =A0I
> think the problem is that I can't estimate the number of hours I will
> need.
>
> So, let me ask the experienced here on board. =A0Given this task (well,
> no requirement details), how many hours do you think is a reasonable
> quote?
>
> Thank you.

He's a small business owner so he probably doesn't have a lot of
money. So, here's what I recommend - charge $2000, purchase a template
from monstertemplates.com and modify it - you can design the mock-up
using their comps, he doesn't have to know anything about
monstertemplates.com - build the site with DotNetNuke, you can sell
him on the many benefits including not needing to hire a wedmaster to
make updates since he can easily do them himself - make sure the host
is capable of helping him with DotNetNuke incase something goes wrong.
Give yourself at least a month.

Re: Need help quoting a project

On Apr 9, 8:59 pm, Dathan wrote:
> On Apr 9, 5:01 pm, gnewsgroup wrote:
>
>
>
> > A small business boss would like me to do a web site for him. He has
> > a small waste management business serving locally only.
>
> > He would like to have a web site where his customers can view account
> > info, pay bills, etc, and his employees can also view/modify customer
> > info through the browser.
>
> > I am very interested in this project, and if the boss and I reach an
> > agreement, I will be the only person working on the whole thing from
> > db to the front end.
>
> > I am not new as a .net developer, but I have not taken on anything all
> > by myself. So, I am wondering how I should quote this project. I
> > think the problem is that I can't estimate the number of hours I will
> > need.
>
> > So, let me ask the experienced here on board. Given this task (well,
> > no requirement details), how many hours do you think is a reasonable
> > quote?
>
> > Thank you.
>
> He's a small business owner so he probably doesn't have a lot of
> money. So, here's what I recommend - charge $2000, purchase a template
> from monstertemplates.com and modify it - you can design the mock-up
> using their comps, he doesn't have to know anything about
> monstertemplates.com - build the site with DotNetNuke, you can sell
> him on the many benefits including not needing to hire a wedmaster to
> make updates since he can easily do them himself - make sure the host
> is capable of helping him with DotNetNuke incase something goes wrong.
> Give yourself at least a month.

Huh, thank you very much for sharing. That sounds a like a good
solution. I don't know much about DotNetNuke, I tried installing it
sometime ago, but was not able to complete the installation. Not sure
if the DNN install has become better.

Also, I am new to the bill-pay part of the application. I have not
done any application that involves real online bill payment. I have a
full-time developer job, so, I am not sure if 1 month is long enough
for me to deliver the product.

Re: Need help quoting a project

On Apr 9, 8:59=A0pm, gnewsgroup wrote:
> On Apr 9, 8:59 pm, Dathan wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 9, 5:01 pm, gnewsgroup wrote:
>
> > > A small business boss would like me to do a web site for him. =A0He ha=
s
> > > a small waste management business serving locally only.
>
> > > He would like to have a web site where his customers can view account
> > > info, pay bills, etc, and his employees can also view/modify customer
> > > info through the browser.
>
> > > I am very interested in this project, and if the boss and I reach an
> > > agreement, I will be the only person working on the whole thing from
> > > db to the front end.
>
> > > I am not new as a .net developer, but I have not taken on anything all=

> > > by myself. =A0So, I am wondering how I should quote this project. =A0I=

> > > think the problem is that I can't estimate the number of hours I will
> > > need.
>
> > > So, let me ask the experienced here on board. =A0Given this task (well=
,
> > > no requirement details), how many hours do you think is a reasonable
> > > quote?
>
> > > Thank you.
>
> > He's a small business owner so he probably doesn't have a lot of
> > money. So, here's what I recommend - charge $2000, purchase a template
> > from monstertemplates.com and modify it - you can design the mock-up
> > using their comps, he doesn't have to know anything about
> > monstertemplates.com - build the site with DotNetNuke, you can sell
> > him on the many benefits including not needing to hire a wedmaster to
> > make updates since he can easily do them himself - make sure the host
> > is capable of helping him with DotNetNuke incase something goes wrong.
> > Give yourself at least a month.
>
> Huh, thank you very much for sharing. That sounds a like a good
> solution. =A0I don't know much about DotNetNuke, I tried installing it
> sometime ago, but was not able to complete the installation. =A0Not sure
> if the DNN install has become better.
>
> Also, I am new to the bill-pay part of the application. I have not
> done any application that involves real online bill payment. =A0I have a
> full-time developer job, so, I am not sure if 1 month is long enough
> for me to deliver the product.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The bill-pay part is just a trivial feature among many features. You
can pick which ones you'd want to use such as roles or the search
engine. I agree that a month is probably not enough time if you're not
too savvy with DotNetNuke. The best way to learn DotNetNuke handsdown
is DnnCreative.com - any info you'd need in addition you can get from
the web or the docs they provide. Their books are boring and think the
majority find them unhelpful.

Re: Need help quoting a project

On Apr 10, 12:17 pm, Dathan wrote:
> On Apr 9, 8:59 pm, gnewsgroup wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 9, 8:59 pm, Dathan wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 9, 5:01 pm, gnewsgroup wrote:
>
> > > > A small business boss would like me to do a web site for him. He has
> > > > a small waste management business serving locally only.
>
> > > > He would like to have a web site where his customers can view account
> > > > info, pay bills, etc, and his employees can also view/modify customer
> > > > info through the browser.
>
> > > > I am very interested in this project, and if the boss and I reach an
> > > > agreement, I will be the only person working on the whole thing from
> > > > db to the front end.
>
> > > > I am not new as a .net developer, but I have not taken on anything all
> > > > by myself. So, I am wondering how I should quote this project. I
> > > > think the problem is that I can't estimate the number of hours I will
> > > > need.
>
> > > > So, let me ask the experienced here on board. Given this task (well,
> > > > no requirement details), how many hours do you think is a reasonable
> > > > quote?
>
> > > > Thank you.
>
> > > He's a small business owner so he probably doesn't have a lot of
> > > money. So, here's what I recommend - charge $2000, purchase a template
> > > from monstertemplates.com and modify it - you can design the mock-up
> > > using their comps, he doesn't have to know anything about
> > > monstertemplates.com - build the site with DotNetNuke, you can sell
> > > him on the many benefits including not needing to hire a wedmaster to
> > > make updates since he can easily do them himself - make sure the host
> > > is capable of helping him with DotNetNuke incase something goes wrong.
> > > Give yourself at least a month.
>
> > Huh, thank you very much for sharing. That sounds a like a good
> > solution. I don't know much about DotNetNuke, I tried installing it
> > sometime ago, but was not able to complete the installation. Not sure
> > if the DNN install has become better.
>
> > Also, I am new to the bill-pay part of the application. I have not
> > done any application that involves real online bill payment. I have a
> > full-time developer job, so, I am not sure if 1 month is long enough
> > for me to deliver the product.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> The bill-pay part is just a trivial feature among many features. You
> can pick which ones you'd want to use such as roles or the search
> engine. I agree that a month is probably not enough time if you're not
> too savvy with DotNetNuke. The best way to learn DotNetNuke handsdown
> is DnnCreative.com - any info you'd need in addition you can get from
> the web or the docs they provide. Their books are boring and think the
> majority find them unhelpful.

Thanks a lot the reference. I'll absolutely check it out.

Re: Need help quoting a project

Instead of DNN, (which is a nightmare), check out the asp.net starter kits.
Here is one that is a commerce site and is using pay-pal.

http://asp.net/downloads/starter-kits/paypal-ecommerce/



"gnewsgroup" wrote in message
news:5c21c565-2ef3-4722-ba10-a48f00c78746@m44g2000hsc.google groups.com...
> On Apr 10, 12:17 pm, Dathan wrote:
>> On Apr 9, 8:59 pm, gnewsgroup wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 9, 8:59 pm, Dathan wrote:
>>
>> > > On Apr 9, 5:01 pm, gnewsgroup wrote:
>>
>> > > > A small business boss would like me to do a web site for him. He
>> > > > has
>> > > > a small waste management business serving locally only.
>>
>> > > > He would like to have a web site where his customers can view
>> > > > account
>> > > > info, pay bills, etc, and his employees can also view/modify
>> > > > customer
>> > > > info through the browser.
>>
>> > > > I am very interested in this project, and if the boss and I reach
>> > > > an
>> > > > agreement, I will be the only person working on the whole thing
>> > > > from
>> > > > db to the front end.
>>
>> > > > I am not new as a .net developer, but I have not taken on anything
>> > > > all
>> > > > by myself. So, I am wondering how I should quote this project. I
>> > > > think the problem is that I can't estimate the number of hours I
>> > > > will
>> > > > need.
>>
>> > > > So, let me ask the experienced here on board. Given this task
>> > > > (well,
>> > > > no requirement details), how many hours do you think is a
>> > > > reasonable
>> > > > quote?
>>
>> > > > Thank you.
>>
>> > > He's a small business owner so he probably doesn't have a lot of
>> > > money. So, here's what I recommend - charge $2000, purchase a
>> > > template
>> > > from monstertemplates.com and modify it - you can design the mock-up
>> > > using their comps, he doesn't have to know anything about
>> > > monstertemplates.com - build the site with DotNetNuke, you can sell
>> > > him on the many benefits including not needing to hire a wedmaster to
>> > > make updates since he can easily do them himself - make sure the host
>> > > is capable of helping him with DotNetNuke incase something goes
>> > > wrong.
>> > > Give yourself at least a month.
>>
>> > Huh, thank you very much for sharing. That sounds a like a good
>> > solution. I don't know much about DotNetNuke, I tried installing it
>> > sometime ago, but was not able to complete the installation. Not sure
>> > if the DNN install has become better.
>>
>> > Also, I am new to the bill-pay part of the application. I have not
>> > done any application that involves real online bill payment. I have a
>> > full-time developer job, so, I am not sure if 1 month is long enough
>> > for me to deliver the product.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> The bill-pay part is just a trivial feature among many features. You
>> can pick which ones you'd want to use such as roles or the search
>> engine. I agree that a month is probably not enough time if you're not
>> too savvy with DotNetNuke. The best way to learn DotNetNuke handsdown
>> is DnnCreative.com - any info you'd need in addition you can get from
>> the web or the docs they provide. Their books are boring and think the
>> majority find them unhelpful.
>
> Thanks a lot the reference. I'll absolutely check it out.

Re: Need help quoting a project

On Apr 10, 1:09 pm, "Mike" wrote:
> Instead of DNN, (which is a nightmare), check out the asp.net starter kits.
> Here is one that is a commerce site and is using pay-pal.
>
> http://asp.net/downloads/starter-kits/paypal-ecommerce/
>

Wondeful. Just download a copy, will scrutinize it for sure. Thanks
a lot.

Re: Need help quoting a project

Before you spend too much time on it, think of a ballpark figure and run
it past him.

People seem to hate to pay for software and expect to get tailored
solutions for the same price as they would pay for Word or similar.

"gnewsgroup" wrote in message
news:8a24bd2b-72a6-4bff-9889-3d880c691efd@c65g2000hsa.google groups.com:

> A small business boss would like me to do a web site for him. He has
> a small waste management business serving locally only.
>
> He would like to have a web site where his customers can view account
> info, pay bills, etc, and his employees can also view/modify customer
> info through the browser.
>
> I am very interested in this project, and if the boss and I reach an
> agreement, I will be the only person working on the whole thing from
> db to the front end.
>
> I am not new as a .net developer, but I have not taken on anything all
> by myself. So, I am wondering how I should quote this project. I
> think the problem is that I can't estimate the number of hours I will
> need.
>
> So, let me ask the experienced here on board. Given this task (well,
> no requirement details), how many hours do you think is a reasonable
> quote?
>
> Thank you.

Re: Need help quoting a project

Nothing personal but I don't think you're smart enough to go it alone. Just
think for a moment about the time and resources required for you to do your
day job. All of that --and more-- is what you are thinking of accepting
responsibility for?

At ~$2000? Are you one of those fools on prozac or something? I mean really,
put things into perspective fella.

The only sound advice you've been given so far is the fact that these small
business weasels do not want to pay for anything at fair market value.

That's why they play stupid while they look for a fool.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

"gnewsgroup" wrote in message
news:8a24bd2b-72a6-4bff-9889-3d880c691efd@c65g2000hsa.google groups.com...
>A small business boss would like me to do a web site for him. He has
> a small waste management business serving locally only.
>
> He would like to have a web site where his customers can view account
> info, pay bills, etc, and his employees can also view/modify customer
> info through the browser.
>
> I am very interested in this project, and if the boss and I reach an
> agreement, I will be the only person working on the whole thing from
> db to the front end.
>
> I am not new as a .net developer, but I have not taken on anything all
> by myself. So, I am wondering how I should quote this project. I
> think the problem is that I can't estimate the number of hours I will
> need.
>
> So, let me ask the experienced here on board. Given this task (well,
> no requirement details), how many hours do you think is a reasonable
> quote?
>
> Thank you.

Re: Need help quoting a project

First, don't go and charge 2000 for it. I have to agree with clinton on this
one. It'll take some time especailly by yourself even with using a template.
I own my own company and I have 2-3 guys working on a project like you have
posted. I have a dedicated DBA so that the db is setup and structured
correctly, then 1 or 2 developers to do the GUI, portion, and then the
business logic and security if need.

I just wrapped up a project similair to what you have and we didn't charge
no 2000 for it, So, do some more research, and even call around to some IT
shops to get a ballpark of what they may charge and go from there.

This guys wants a bently for a price of a Lexus,.

Good luck

"gnewsgroup" wrote in message
news:8a24bd2b-72a6-4bff-9889-3d880c691efd@c65g2000hsa.google groups.com...
>A small business boss would like me to do a web site for him. He has
> a small waste management business serving locally only.
>
> He would like to have a web site where his customers can view account
> info, pay bills, etc, and his employees can also view/modify customer
> info through the browser.
>
> I am very interested in this project, and if the boss and I reach an
> agreement, I will be the only person working on the whole thing from
> db to the front end.
>
> I am not new as a .net developer, but I have not taken on anything all
> by myself. So, I am wondering how I should quote this project. I
> think the problem is that I can't estimate the number of hours I will
> need.
>
> So, let me ask the experienced here on board. Given this task (well,
> no requirement details), how many hours do you think is a reasonable
> quote?
>
> Thank you.

Re: Need help quoting a project

"clintonG" wrote in message
news:OpCjny%23mIHA.3532@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Nothing personal but I don't think you're smart enough to go it alone.
> Just think for a moment about the time and resources required for you to
> do your day job. All of that --and more-- is what you are thinking of
> accepting responsibility for?
>
> At ~$2000? Are you one of those fools on prozac or something? I mean
> really, put things into perspective fella.
>
> The only sound advice you've been given so far is the fact that these
> small business weasels do not want to pay for anything at fair market
> value.
>
> That's why they play stupid while they look for a fool.
>


I have to completely agree with everything Clinton and CSharpCoder said.

Especially this part: "Nothing personal"

It is nothing personal - and based on the (1) number of your questions here
and (2) the nature of your questions, it appears that you literally don't
know how to accomplish the fundamentals of what this project will require.
That's not a slam on you - no at all. Either you know something or you
don't. There's nothing wrong with not knowing something unless you are
presenting yourself to a client as already knowing or having certain
expertise that is lacking. What is dangerous about your situation is that
Web programming is perhaps one of the most difficult kinds of programming
there is. If you don't know the fundamentals, then you are in for a huge and
time consuming learning curve that you won't see coming - especially if you
have already been a successful desktop app developer.

Separately, your client apparently doesn't know what's going on - and how
hard and *time consuming* it will be to get what he wants - even if there is
a whole team of experienced developers working on this.

It is important to understand that Web development is incredibly time
consuming - even if the tasks are "easy" they can take a very long time to
accomplish. If you are estimating things based on what it would take to
accomplish similar functionality in a desktop app, then multiply that by a
factor of 5 or so and you'll be in the ballpark - and that's assuming that
you are already a competent Web developer and don't have to learn as you go.
If you have to learn as you go, then all bets are off and the project may
literally never see the light of day being that (1) you'll promise something
that's "easy" - but takes forever, then you have to scramble to learn the
fundamentals -- ultimately to discover that there is no way in the world you
can deliver it in a reasonable amount of time (possibly for non technical
reasons).

Also, the advice to "just plug in" DNN or some reference application is just
plain old naive. Even if you successfully get a Web site up and running -
your client is going to want to have functionality not already pre packaged
in DNN etc. So you'd then be off on your own to deliver that -- which may
not be possible given that DNN etc weren't designed with such customizations
in mind.

When I first read your post a few days ago, my first inclination was to tell
you to RUN (away from this project). But you seem intent on pulling it off.
Good luck! Also, be prepared to have a VERY difficult and short-term
relationship with this client.

Re: Need help quoting a project

On Apr 11, 9:50 pm, "Jordan S." wrote:
> "clintonG" wrote in message
>
> news:OpCjny%23mIHA.3532@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>
> > Nothing personal but I don't think you're smart enough to go it alone.
> > Just think for a moment about the time and resources required for you to
> > do your day job. All of that --and more-- is what you are thinking of
> > accepting responsibility for?
>
> > At ~$2000? Are you one of those fools on prozac or something? I mean
> > really, put things into perspective fella.
>
> > The only sound advice you've been given so far is the fact that these
> > small business weasels do not want to pay for anything at fair market
> > value.
>
> > That's why they play stupid while they look for a fool.
>
> I have to completely agree with everything Clinton and CSharpCoder said.
>
> Especially this part: "Nothing personal"
>
> It is nothing personal - and based on the (1) number of your questions here
> and (2) the nature of your questions, it appears that you literally don't
> know how to accomplish the fundamentals of what this project will require.
> That's not a slam on you - no at all. Either you know something or you
> don't. There's nothing wrong with not knowing something unless you are
> presenting yourself to a client as already knowing or having certain
> expertise that is lacking. What is dangerous about your situation is that
> Web programming is perhaps one of the most difficult kinds of programming
> there is. If you don't know the fundamentals, then you are in for a huge and
> time consuming learning curve that you won't see coming - especially if you
> have already been a successful desktop app developer.
>
> Separately, your client apparently doesn't know what's going on - and how
> hard and *time consuming* it will be to get what he wants - even if there is
> a whole team of experienced developers working on this.
>
> It is important to understand that Web development is incredibly time
> consuming - even if the tasks are "easy" they can take a very long time to
> accomplish. If you are estimating things based on what it would take to
> accomplish similar functionality in a desktop app, then multiply that by a
> factor of 5 or so and you'll be in the ballpark - and that's assuming that
> you are already a competent Web developer and don't have to learn as you go.
> If you have to learn as you go, then all bets are off and the project may
> literally never see the light of day being that (1) you'll promise something
> that's "easy" - but takes forever, then you have to scramble to learn the
> fundamentals -- ultimately to discover that there is no way in the world you
> can deliver it in a reasonable amount of time (possibly for non technical
> reasons).
>
> Also, the advice to "just plug in" DNN or some reference application is just
> plain old naive. Even if you successfully get a Web site up and running -
> your client is going to want to have functionality not already pre packaged
> in DNN etc. So you'd then be off on your own to deliver that -- which may
> not be possible given that DNN etc weren't designed with such customizations
> in mind.
>
> When I first read your post a few days ago, my first inclination was to tell
> you to RUN (away from this project). But you seem intent on pulling it off.
> Good luck! Also, be prepared to have a VERY difficult and short-term
> relationship with this client.

I am amused reading you guys' response, and I do think that some of
your points make real sense. But I think Jordan is being too
pessimistic. By the way, I have never done Windows application
development. Also, for the project I am talking about, except the
online payment part, nothing is new to me. Given today's application
development model, I am sure online payment is nothing difficult,
although it is new to me.

Re: Need help quoting a project

> I am amused reading you guys' response, and I do think that some of
> your points make real sense. But I think Jordan is being too
> pessimistic. By the way, I have never done Windows application
> development. Also, for the project I am talking about, except the
> online payment part, nothing is new to me. Given today's application
> development model, I am sure online payment is nothing difficult,
> although it is new to me.

I certainly wish you the best of luck. My responses were based on (1) the
number of questions you have posted in this NG; (2) the nature of those
questions, and (3) the OP that started this thread. You certainly present as
someone who doesn't have a lot of experience (again, not a criticism), and
are perhaps overly optimistic. Optimism is fine until you have an angry
customer - so it's not about me being pessimistic so much as it is trying to
point out some realities that you might be ignoring. If you can take care of
those earlier rather than later, things might go better. Given your apparent
lack of confidence (given the OP here) it's surprising to hear back from you
that "nothing is new to me" beyond the online payment processing part. If
that was true, you wouldn't be asking for help with an estimate. If I were
to hear someone tell me "nothing is new to me" beyond xyz part, I'd be VERY
sceptical.

Perhaps I could have been more constructive. So, towards that end, I would
suggest that you work very hard (if you have not already) with the client on
setting his expectations for (1) important milestones and (2) overall
project completion. Set his expectations in a way that gives you a LOT of
flexibility to learn what you have to learn in order to deliver. Payment
processing involves a whole lot more than the technical aspects of wiring up
a shopping cart or payment form. Back to the suggestoins: Assemble a formal
requirements document that spells out - in very clear terms - the
functionality that is to be delivered. Require that the customer agree to
the requirements in writing. Don't proceed until the specifications are
documented and agreed upon. Small business clients who have never
participated in a project like this typically will change requirements on
their whim, without also adjusting the due dates. So get him to understand
that every time he changes requirements, doing so is [almost certainly]
going to cause the due dates to be moved back. Add something into the
agreement that invalidates prior due dates every time requirements change
substantially - with you being deemed as the judge of what's a substantial
change and what's not.

Bottom line - you need to work very hard to manage his expectations.

And as far as an estimate - you should refuse to give one until you have
that requirements document formalized and agreed upon. If you provide an
estimate before he agrees on a written specifications document, then you are
setting both of you up for major problems - not guaranteed, but incredibly
likely.

HTH - really.

Re: Need help quoting a project

"Mike" wrote in message
news:emrKy2ymIHA.484@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

> Instead of DNN, (which is a nightmare)

I couldn't agree more!


--
Mark Rae
ASP.NET MVP
http://www.markrae.net