Design Patterns

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Hi all!

I've written a little Design Patterns Catalog in PHP.
The patterns where taken from GoF: *Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable
Object-Oriented Software* (ISBN
0-201-63361-2)


This catalog includes (for each pattern):

1. general description
2. class responsibilities
3. UML
4. structural source
5. documentation
6. implementation example


Also I've upload the documentation into my site for online purposes.
http://martinscotta.com.ar/DesignPatterns/


I don't know if I can send files attached through this list... so, if you
want a copy just reply to this message.

Any bug, comment, or anything you like to say is welcome!

--
Martin Scotta

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Re: Design Patterns

it would help if u would tell us what u want to accomplish with this ativity

cheers
ralph_deffke@yahoo.de

"Martin Scotta" wrote in message
news:6445d94e0908121323x721254c4ja389978d67bc04c6@mail.gmail .com...
> Hi all!
>
> I've written a little Design Patterns Catalog in PHP.
> The patterns where taken from GoF: *Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable
> Object-Oriented Software* (ISBN
>
0-201-63361-2)
>
>
> This catalog includes (for each pattern):
>
> 1. general description
> 2. class responsibilities
> 3. UML
> 4. structural source
> 5. documentation
> 6. implementation example
>
>
> Also I've upload the documentation into my site for online purposes.
> http://martinscotta.com.ar/DesignPatterns/
>
>
> I don't know if I can send files attached through this list... so, if you
> want a copy just reply to this message.
>
> Any bug, comment, or anything you like to say is welcome!
>
> --
> Martin Scotta
>



--
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To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Re: Design Patterns

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On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Ralph Deffke wrote:

> it would help if u would tell us what u want to accomplish with this
> ativity
>
> cheers
> ralph_deffke@yahoo.de
>
> "Martin Scotta" wrote in message
> news:6445d94e0908121323x721254c4ja389978d67bc04c6@mail.gmail .com...
> > Hi all!
> >
> > I've written a little Design Patterns Catalog in PHP.
> > The patterns where taken from GoF: *Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable
> > Object-Oriented Software* (ISBN
> >
> 0-201-63361-2 > >)
> >
> >
> > This catalog includes (for each pattern):
> >
> > 1. general description
> > 2. class responsibilities
> > 3. UML
> > 4. structural source
> > 5. documentation
> > 6. implementation example
> >
> >
> > Also I've upload the documentation into my site for online purposes.
> > http://martinscotta.com.ar/DesignPatterns/
> >
> >
> > I don't know if I can send files attached through this list... so, if you
> > want a copy just reply to this message.
> >
> > Any bug, comment, or anything you like to say is welcome!
> >
> > --
> > Martin Scotta
> >
>
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
I have uploaded the files into mi site.
http://martinscotta.com.ar/DesignPatterns/

--
Martin Scotta

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Re: Re: Design Patterns

I wrote this message after spending 1/2 hour at your documentation. I'm
sorry, may be I don't have the ability to understand your goal. thats thats
why I ask you what is this for.

I'm an application programmer with an industrial process control
background. A peace of code ment to do something for me.

may I ask again what do u want to accomplish?

ralph_deffke@yahoo.de

"Martin Scotta" wrote in message
news:6445d94e0908121526r7280c680v22742e8418e6b3e9@mail.gmail .com...
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Ralph Deffke
wrote:
>
> > it would help if u would tell us what u want to accomplish with this
> > ativity
> >
> > cheers
> > ralph_deffke@yahoo.de
> >
> > "Martin Scotta" wrote in message
> > news:6445d94e0908121323x721254c4ja389978d67bc04c6@mail.gmail .com...
> > > Hi all!
> > >
> > > I've written a little Design Patterns Catalog in PHP.
> > > The patterns where taken from GoF: *Design Patterns: Elements of
Reusable
> > > Object-Oriented Software* (ISBN
> > >
> >
0-201-63361-2 > > >)
> > >
> > >
> > > This catalog includes (for each pattern):
> > >
> > > 1. general description
> > > 2. class responsibilities
> > > 3. UML
> > > 4. structural source
> > > 5. documentation
> > > 6. implementation example
> > >
> > >
> > > Also I've upload the documentation into my site for online purposes.
> > > http://martinscotta.com.ar/DesignPatterns/
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't know if I can send files attached through this list... so, if
you
> > > want a copy just reply to this message.
> > >
> > > Any bug, comment, or anything you like to say is welcome!
> > >
> > > --
> > > Martin Scotta
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
> >
> I have uploaded the files into mi site.
> http://martinscotta.com.ar/DesignPatterns/
>
> --
> Martin Scotta
>



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Re: Design Patterns

Thank you Martin. I'm new to php and stuff like this and the great folks on
this newsgroup really help the newbies like myself learn the language.
That's why I like this list and regularly snoop through the threads here.
This list is the most helpful resource on php that I've been able to find
out here in the digital wilderness... along with the help files at php.net

mark



"Martin Scotta" wrote in message
news:6445d94e0908121323x721254c4ja389978d67bc04c6@mail.gmail .com...
> Hi all!
>
> I've written a little Design Patterns Catalog in PHP.
> The patterns where taken from GoF: *Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable
> Object-Oriented Software* (ISBN
> 0-201-63361-2)
>
>
> This catalog includes (for each pattern):
>
> 1. general description
> 2. class responsibilities
> 3. UML
> 4. structural source
> 5. documentation
> 6. implementation example
>
>
> Also I've upload the documentation into my site for online purposes.
> http://martinscotta.com.ar/DesignPatterns/
>
>
> I don't know if I can send files attached through this list... so, if you
> want a copy just reply to this message.
>
> Any bug, comment, or anything you like to say is welcome!
>
> --
> Martin Scotta
>



--
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To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

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Hi Ralph.

If u want to understand the Martin's job u need to read about
design patterns. A good place to start? Wikipedia (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns).

The use of Design patterns is an advanced programming method.
It helps us to improve our object oriented programation.

I hope this helps you,

Jaime

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Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

Thanks Jaime,

very nice, but I'm a programmer since 1982 and into OOP since 1988 with the
outcome if IBM's C++ compiler on the OS2 platform.

Don't u think it could be reasonable to ask if such an overhead IN PHP is
necessary?

does anybody agree that PHP might be the wrong language to accomplish such a
designpattern. Specialy if I find classes about interpreting things.

Don't u think to blow up a servers memonry just to have a nice little
framework could be ask?

Don't u think it makes sence to remember that PHP is just to output a simple
text file?

Has inbedween all the OOP ability everybody forgotten that this is the
simple purpose?

Are there anybody who understands that PHP is an INTERPRETING language and
has anybody an idear what is the amount of code running to do a simple

$something = new object();

versus echo $something

Design pattern are very good, standarizing even better. but would u agree
that, out of Martins presented work, u can not see the how AND how fast the
code is created to output the header the head and body and all other tags.

What I can see, the result will be a lot of code, lots of includes for a
view bytes.

For me, wrong language with unneccesary overhead.

as i can see there must be some more folks out there thinking a bit
similar, or why is the feetback so relatively poor.

and at least u create design pattern for a PURPOSE.

so again for what pupose are this overhead in PHP
As long as nobody tells me for what benefit this work is done I would say
the design pattern should be done in other packages ready made for that with
an PHP output.

this would not affect any server resources.

now after more then 25 years behind the keyboard I got possibly a bit thumb.
lets open the discussion.

ralph_deffke@yahoo.de


"Jaime Jose Perera Merino" wrote in message
news:62f65ec80908130320t70078242y65308d2ef0288483@mail.gmail .com...
> Hi Ralph.
>
> If u want to understand the Martin's job u need to read about
> design patterns. A good place to start? Wikipedia (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns).
>
> The use of Design patterns is an advanced programming method.
> It helps us to improve our object oriented programation.
>
> I hope this helps you,
>
> Jaime
>



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Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

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On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Ralph Deffke wrote:

> Thanks Jaime,
>
> very nice, but I'm a programmer since 1982 and into OOP since 1988 with the
> outcome if IBM's C++ compiler on the OS2 platform.
>
> Don't u think it could be reasonable to ask if such an overhead IN PHP is
> necessary?
>
> does anybody agree that PHP might be the wrong language to accomplish such
> a
> designpattern. Specialy if I find classes about interpreting things.
>
> Don't u think to blow up a servers memonry just to have a nice little
> framework could be ask?
>
> Don't u think it makes sence to remember that PHP is just to output a
> simple
> text file?
>
> Has inbedween all the OOP ability everybody forgotten that this is the
> simple purpose?
>
> Are there anybody who understands that PHP is an INTERPRETING language and
> has anybody an idear what is the amount of code running to do a simple
>
> $something = new object();
>
> versus echo $something
>
> Design pattern are very good, standarizing even better. but would u agree
> that, out of Martins presented work, u can not see the how AND how fast the
> code is created to output the header the head and body and all other tags.
>
> What I can see, the result will be a lot of code, lots of includes for a
> view bytes.
>
> For me, wrong language with unneccesary overhead.
>
> as i can see there must be some more folks out there thinking a bit
> similar, or why is the feetback so relatively poor.
>
> and at least u create design pattern for a PURPOSE.
>
> so again for what pupose are this overhead in PHP
> As long as nobody tells me for what benefit this work is done I would say
> the design pattern should be done in other packages ready made for that
> with
> an PHP output.
>
> this would not affect any server resources.
>
> now after more then 25 years behind the keyboard I got possibly a bit
> thumb.
> lets open the discussion.


since the 1980's, another advent has come about, called cheap memory, and
fast
cpu's. so the answer is no, nobody cares about how many cycles it
takes to instantiate a new class in php. for those who do, they can
go off and code apps based on sets of global functions or straight
proceedural code, as php supports them all.

if you're writing an app in todays world of fast cheap hardware, where
you're concerned about the number of cycles it takes to instantiate an
object being too high; i suppose you should be considering something
like C++ for said app.

also, it stands to reason that since nobody cares about the object creation
overhead, that the very next thing the community will do after getting
classes in their language is reach out to design patterns. just as GoF and
you did back in the day, w/ the advent of objc/C++ coming out after having
lived through years of C.

-nathan

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

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Hi Ralph,

Sorry, I haven't understand your question.

Do you think OOP isn't usefull for PHP? The PHP
task is just to output a text file but the process might involve
a lot of work: database access, communication with web services, etc.

Do you think duplicate code is better than use more memory?
What is your proposal?

I'm very interested in more opinions.



2009/8/13 Ralph Deffke

> Thanks Jaime,
>
> very nice, but I'm a programmer since 1982 and into OOP since 1988 with t=
he
> outcome if IBM's C++ compiler on the OS2 platform.
>
> Don't u think it could be reasonable to ask if such an overhead IN PHP is
> necessary?
>
> does anybody agree that PHP might be the wrong language to accomplish suc=
h
> a
> designpattern. Specialy if I find classes about interpreting things.
>
> Don't u think to blow up a servers memonry just to have a nice little
> framework could be ask?
>
> Don't u think it makes sence to remember that PHP is just to output a
> simple
> text file?
>
> Has inbedween all the OOP ability everybody forgotten that this is the
> simple purpose?
>
> Are there anybody who understands that PHP is an INTERPRETING language an=
d
> has anybody an idear what is the amount of code running to do a simple
>
> $something =3D new object();
>
> versus echo $something
>
> Design pattern are very good, standarizing even better. but would u agree
> that, out of Martins presented work, u can not see the how AND how fast t=
he
> code is created to output the header the head and body and all other tags=
..
>
> What I can see, the result will be a lot of code, lots of includes for a
> view bytes.
>
> For me, wrong language with unneccesary overhead.
>
> as i can see there must be some more folks out there thinking a bit
> similar, or why is the feetback so relatively poor.
>
> and at least u create design pattern for a PURPOSE.
>
> so again for what pupose are this overhead in PHP
> As long as nobody tells me for what benefit this work is done I would say
> the design pattern should be done in other packages ready made for that
> with
> an PHP output.
>
> this would not affect any server resources.
>
> now after more then 25 years behind the keyboard I got possibly a bit
> thumb.
> lets open the discussion.
>
> ralph_deffke@yahoo.de
>
>
> "Jaime Jose Perera Merino" wrote in message
> news:62f65ec80908130320t70078242y65308d2ef0288483@mail.gmail .com...
> > Hi Ralph.
> >
> > If u want to understand the Martin's job u need to read about
> > design patterns. A good place to start? Wikipedia (
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns).
> >
> > The use of Design patterns is an advanced programming method.
> > It helps us to improve our object oriented programation.
> >
> > I hope this helps you,
> >
> > Jaime
> >
>
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>


--=20
Jaime J. Perera Merino
Aplicaciones Inform=E1ticas. Desarrollo y Formaci=F3n
jaimejperera@gmail.com - 655460979

--00504502c74ee4d2820471076d08--

Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

funny then that I see here serious people discussing the benefit of
shortening code and cutting out commends.

maby thats a general problem of our society that everybody think higher
cheaper faster. this will have a limit guys !!! u can not go smaler then an
atom.

funny as well that I make my main money in optimizing code to speed and low
server resources. Im one of the old guys who can do both hardware and
software and I'm telling u this is suspect to me. I still can build a
computer from board and powersupply upward.

looks like that u joung guys got a little dream implementet by ur profs. Did
u know that the industry is complaining that the engeneers coming from the
universities are useless for business? a big complain! the real world is
different. Hosting companies will always try to keep a server machine as
long as they can, because a paid server DOES MAKE MONEY. so where is then
the cheap and fast server. how many servers out there still running on PHP4?
have u thouhgt about?

again, design pattern make sence, but on a companies policy base or on a
medium upwards sized project. but there will be more languages be involved
in one company it would be much better to use a language independent tool.

again this is chasing mice with an elephant

ralph_deffke@yahoo.de


"Nathan Nobbe" wrote in message
news:7dd2dc0b0908130809p456de5e7g35641de69af14c1a@mail.gmail .com...
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Ralph Deffke
wrote:
>
> > Thanks Jaime,
> >
> > very nice, but I'm a programmer since 1982 and into OOP since 1988 with
the
> > outcome if IBM's C++ compiler on the OS2 platform.
> >
> > Don't u think it could be reasonable to ask if such an overhead IN PHP
is
> > necessary?
> >
> > does anybody agree that PHP might be the wrong language to accomplish
such
> > a
> > designpattern. Specialy if I find classes about interpreting things.
> >
> > Don't u think to blow up a servers memonry just to have a nice little
> > framework could be ask?
> >
> > Don't u think it makes sence to remember that PHP is just to output a
> > simple
> > text file?
> >
> > Has inbedween all the OOP ability everybody forgotten that this is the
> > simple purpose?
> >
> > Are there anybody who understands that PHP is an INTERPRETING language
and
> > has anybody an idear what is the amount of code running to do a simple
> >
> > $something = new object();
> >
> > versus echo $something
> >
> > Design pattern are very good, standarizing even better. but would u
agree
> > that, out of Martins presented work, u can not see the how AND how fast
the
> > code is created to output the header the head and body and all other
tags.
> >
> > What I can see, the result will be a lot of code, lots of includes for a
> > view bytes.
> >
> > For me, wrong language with unneccesary overhead.
> >
> > as i can see there must be some more folks out there thinking a bit
> > similar, or why is the feetback so relatively poor.
> >
> > and at least u create design pattern for a PURPOSE.
> >
> > so again for what pupose are this overhead in PHP
> > As long as nobody tells me for what benefit this work is done I would
say
> > the design pattern should be done in other packages ready made for that
> > with
> > an PHP output.
> >
> > this would not affect any server resources.
> >
> > now after more then 25 years behind the keyboard I got possibly a bit
> > thumb.
> > lets open the discussion.
>
>
> since the 1980's, another advent has come about, called cheap memory, and
> fast
> cpu's. so the answer is no, nobody cares about how many cycles it
> takes to instantiate a new class in php. for those who do, they can
> go off and code apps based on sets of global functions or straight
> proceedural code, as php supports them all.
>
> if you're writing an app in todays world of fast cheap hardware, where
> you're concerned about the number of cycles it takes to instantiate an
> object being too high; i suppose you should be considering something
> like C++ for said app.
>
> also, it stands to reason that since nobody cares about the object
creation
> overhead, that the very next thing the community will do after getting
> classes in their language is reach out to design patterns. just as GoF
and
> you did back in the day, w/ the advent of objc/C++ coming out after having
> lived through years of C.
>
> -nathan
>



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Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

I use a combination of procedural and OOP for my scripts. Mainly =20
because I have a lot of old code I wrote before I understood OOP. Now =20=

that I do it makes my life so much easier because of the =20
organizational and reusability benefits. In today's world I will =20
gladly trade a little overhead for fasting coding. At work we have a =20=

quad processor IBM server with 4GB of RAM - no speed problems there. =20=

At home I use a 1.25GHz Mac Mini and no speed problems there either.

Take care,
Floyd

On Aug 13, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Jaime Jose Perera Merino wrote:

> Hi Ralph,
>
> Sorry, I haven't understand your question.
>
> Do you think OOP isn't usefull for PHP? The PHP
> task is just to output a text file but the process might involve
> a lot of work: database access, communication with web services, etc.
>
> Do you think duplicate code is better than use more memory?
> What is your proposal?
>
> I'm very interested in more opinions.
>
>
>
> 2009/8/13 Ralph Deffke
>
>> Thanks Jaime,
>>
>> very nice, but I'm a programmer since 1982 and into OOP since 1988 =20=

>> with the
>> outcome if IBM's C++ compiler on the OS2 platform.
>>
>> Don't u think it could be reasonable to ask if such an overhead IN =20=

>> PHP is
>> necessary?
>>
>> does anybody agree that PHP might be the wrong language to =20
>> accomplish such
>> a
>> designpattern. Specialy if I find classes about interpreting things.
>>
>> Don't u think to blow up a servers memonry just to have a nice little
>> framework could be ask?
>>
>> Don't u think it makes sence to remember that PHP is just to output a
>> simple
>> text file?
>>
>> Has inbedween all the OOP ability everybody forgotten that this is =20=

>> the
>> simple purpose?
>>
>> Are there anybody who understands that PHP is an INTERPRETING =20
>> language and
>> has anybody an idear what is the amount of code running to do a =20
>> simple
>>
>> $something =3D new object();
>>
>> versus echo $something
>>
>> Design pattern are very good, standarizing even better. but would u =20=

>> agree
>> that, out of Martins presented work, u can not see the how AND how =20=

>> fast the
>> code is created to output the header the head and body and all =20
>> other tags.
>>
>> What I can see, the result will be a lot of code, lots of includes =20=

>> for a
>> view bytes.
>>
>> For me, wrong language with unneccesary overhead.
>>
>> as i can see there must be some more folks out there thinking a bit
>> similar, or why is the feetback so relatively poor.
>>
>> and at least u create design pattern for a PURPOSE.
>>
>> so again for what pupose are this overhead in PHP
>> As long as nobody tells me for what benefit this work is done I =20
>> would say
>> the design pattern should be done in other packages ready made for =20=

>> that
>> with
>> an PHP output.
>>
>> this would not affect any server resources.
>>
>> now after more then 25 years behind the keyboard I got possibly a bit
>> thumb.
>> lets open the discussion.
>>
>> ralph_deffke@yahoo.de
>>
>>
>> "Jaime Jose Perera Merino" wrote in message
>> news:62f65ec80908130320t70078242y65308d2ef0288483@mail.gmail .com...
>>> Hi Ralph.
>>>
>>> If u want to understand the Martin's job u need to read about
>>> design patterns. A good place to start? Wikipedia (
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns).
>>>
>>> The use of Design patterns is an advanced programming method.
>>> It helps us to improve our object oriented programation.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps you,
>>>
>>> Jaime
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>
>>
>
>
> --=20
> Jaime J. Perera Merino
> Aplicaciones Inform=E1ticas. Desarrollo y Formaci=F3n
> jaimejperera@gmail.com - 655460979


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Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

NO NO NO

OOP is the best ever inventet !!!!!

see my comments on this list, I will also come up with an pure oop
opensource OMS very soon.

I just think a dam big pattern catalog like this one is like an elephant
chacing mice. I mean I can think of customers asking for a documentation of
course of the page u created for them calling the next day asking wher the
hell are the code for the page are documented in the 1000 pages of
documentation u had to give them.

I can think of two of my largest customers with their intranet application
with 23000 members and more then 50000 hits during working hours where I
startet sweating while figting for every 1ms.

I'm thinking of people with even more hits a day, they even dont start using
PHP
so I dont know if thats the right way to blow up with includes and
thousands of classes.

Im complaining on the deepnes and breakdown of the single pattern I miss the
orientation on the real problem - outputting marup text

cheers
ralph_deffke@yahoo.de



"Jaime Jose Perera Merino" wrote in message
news:62f65ec80908130817x3edc8ffav4153b7c1a44a2d44@mail.gmail .com...
Hi Ralph,

Sorry, I haven't understand your question.

Do you think OOP isn't usefull for PHP? The PHP
task is just to output a text file but the process might involve
a lot of work: database access, communication with web services, etc.

Do you think duplicate code is better than use more memory?
What is your proposal?

I'm very interested in more opinions.



2009/8/13 Ralph Deffke

> Thanks Jaime,
>
> very nice, but I'm a programmer since 1982 and into OOP since 1988 with
the
> outcome if IBM's C++ compiler on the OS2 platform.
>
> Don't u think it could be reasonable to ask if such an overhead IN PHP is
> necessary?
>
> does anybody agree that PHP might be the wrong language to accomplish such
> a
> designpattern. Specialy if I find classes about interpreting things.
>
> Don't u think to blow up a servers memonry just to have a nice little
> framework could be ask?
>
> Don't u think it makes sence to remember that PHP is just to output a
> simple
> text file?
>
> Has inbedween all the OOP ability everybody forgotten that this is the
> simple purpose?
>
> Are there anybody who understands that PHP is an INTERPRETING language and
> has anybody an idear what is the amount of code running to do a simple
>
> $something = new object();
>
> versus echo $something
>
> Design pattern are very good, standarizing even better. but would u agree
> that, out of Martins presented work, u can not see the how AND how fast
the
> code is created to output the header the head and body and all other tags.
>
> What I can see, the result will be a lot of code, lots of includes for a
> view bytes.
>
> For me, wrong language with unneccesary overhead.
>
> as i can see there must be some more folks out there thinking a bit
> similar, or why is the feetback so relatively poor.
>
> and at least u create design pattern for a PURPOSE.
>
> so again for what pupose are this overhead in PHP
> As long as nobody tells me for what benefit this work is done I would say
> the design pattern should be done in other packages ready made for that
> with
> an PHP output.
>
> this would not affect any server resources.
>
> now after more then 25 years behind the keyboard I got possibly a bit
> thumb.
> lets open the discussion.
>
> ralph_deffke@yahoo.de
>
>
> "Jaime Jose Perera Merino" wrote in message
> news:62f65ec80908130320t70078242y65308d2ef0288483@mail.gmail .com...
> > Hi Ralph.
> >
> > If u want to understand the Martin's job u need to read about
> > design patterns. A good place to start? Wikipedia (
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns).
> >
> > The use of Design patterns is an advanced programming method.
> > It helps us to improve our object oriented programation.
> >
> > I hope this helps you,
> >
> > Jaime
> >
>
>
>
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>


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Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

Ralph Deffke napsal(a):
> NO NO NO
>
> OOP is the best ever inventet !!!!!
>
> see my comments on this list, I will also come up with an pure oop
> opensource OMS very soon.
>
> I just think a dam big pattern catalog like this one is like an elephant
> chacing mice. I mean I can think of customers asking for a documentation of
> course of the page u created for them calling the next day asking wher the
> hell are the code for the page are documented in the 1000 pages of
> documentation u had to give them.
>
> I can think of two of my largest customers with their intranet application
> with 23000 members and more then 50000 hits during working hours where I
> startet sweating while figting for every 1ms.
>
> I'm thinking of people with even more hits a day, they even dont start using
> PHP
> so I dont know if thats the right way to blow up with includes and
> thousands of classes.

I deeply and completely agree.

Martin

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

Ralph Deffke wrote:
> funny then that I see here serious people discussing the benefit of
> shortening code and cutting out commends.
>
> maby thats a general problem of our society that everybody think higher
> cheaper faster. this will have a limit guys !!! u can not go smaler then an
> atom.
>
> funny as well that I make my main money in optimizing code to speed and low
> server resources. Im one of the old guys who can do both hardware and
> software and I'm telling u this is suspect to me. I still can build a
> computer from board and powersupply upward.
>
> looks like that u joung guys got a little dream implementet by ur profs. Did
> u know that the industry is complaining that the engeneers coming from the
> universities are useless for business? a big complain! the real world is
> different. Hosting companies will always try to keep a server machine as
> long as they can, because a paid server DOES MAKE MONEY. so where is then
> the cheap and fast server. how many servers out there still running on PHP4?
> have u thouhgt about?
>
> again, design pattern make sence, but on a companies policy base or on a
> medium upwards sized project. but there will be more languages be involved
> in one company it would be much better to use a language independent tool.
>
> again this is chasing mice with an elephant

Except for incompetent algorithms, it is almost always cheaper to throw
money at a new server than to have a coder micro optimize his/her code.
Similarly, it is usually cheaper to throw more hardware at a well
programmed solution that uses modern programming concepts than to have a
programmer use the most rudimentary of programming techniques to save on
cycles.

With respect to why you see "shortening of code and cutting out
comments", perhaps you are referring to the recent Calendar thread,
where a bunch of us were just having some good old optimization fun. I
for one enjoy the occasional diversion of optimizing some code just for
the sake of optimizing it. Sometimes even, the optimization is even the
cleanest/most readable solution.

Cheers,
Rob.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

Martin Zvarík wrote:
> Ralph Deffke napsal(a):
>> NO NO NO
>>
>> OOP is the best ever inventet !!!!!
>>
>> see my comments on this list, I will also come up with an pure oop
>> opensource OMS very soon.
>>
>> I just think a dam big pattern catalog like this one is like an elephant
>> chacing mice. I mean I can think of customers asking for a documentation of
>> course of the page u created for them calling the next day asking wher the
>> hell are the code for the page are documented in the 1000 pages of
>> documentation u had to give them.
>>
>> I can think of two of my largest customers with their intranet application
>> with 23000 members and more then 50000 hits during working hours where I
>> startet sweating while figting for every 1ms.
>>
>> I'm thinking of people with even more hits a day, they even dont start using
>> PHP
>> so I dont know if thats the right way to blow up with includes and
>> thousands of classes.
>
> I deeply and completely agree.

Yes, certainly optimize on an as-needed basis. But well written PHP code
should certainly scale quite well horizontally. Extremely traffic laden
websites are quite likely to see a bottleneck at the database before a
bottleneck in the code.

Cheers,
Rob.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

Robert Cummings wrote:
>
>
> Martin Zvarík wrote:
>> Ralph Deffke napsal(a):
>>> NO NO NO
>>>
>>> OOP is the best ever inventet !!!!!
>>>
>>> see my comments on this list, I will also come up with an pure oop
>>> opensource OMS very soon.
>>>
>>> I just think a dam big pattern catalog like this one is like an elephant
>>> chacing mice. I mean I can think of customers asking for a
>>> documentation of
>>> course of the page u created for them calling the next day asking
>>> wher the
>>> hell are the code for the page are documented in the 1000 pages of
>>> documentation u had to give them.
>>>
>>> I can think of two of my largest customers with their intranet
>>> application
>>> with 23000 members and more then 50000 hits during working hours where I
>>> startet sweating while figting for every 1ms.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking of people with even more hits a day, they even dont
>>> start using
>>> PHP
>>> so I dont know if thats the right way to blow up with includes and
>>> thousands of classes.
>>
>> I deeply and completely agree.
>
> Yes, certainly optimize on an as-needed basis. But well written PHP code
> should certainly scale quite well horizontally. Extremely traffic laden
> websites are quite likely to see a bottleneck at the database before a
> bottleneck in the code.

Hi,

You all should understand that on high traffic sites, C or C++ is far
more frequently used and called "PHP" because they use a whole lot of
custom extensions to speed things up. In addition, memcached speeds up
database access so much that the speed of PHP starts to matter. This is
why PHP 5.3.0 is somewhere around 30% faster than any previous PHP
version when running common applications, because the core developers
realized that the base efficiency begins to matter and spent
considerable effort improving basic language performance.

There are a lot of ways to improve PHP's efficiency, and arguing over
whether to use design patterns is not a particularly effective one.
Profiling early and often to understand the slowest portions of your
code is an effective method. There are many, many talks/videos/etc.
that can be found via google.com which discuss these principles, but
suffice to say that xdebug, APC, and most importantly siege and apache
benchmark are your friends in this endeavor.

For Ralph: it might help you to know that facebook.com improved their
performance by splitting up things into lots and lots of classes, and
using autoload. I don't have specific details because I don't work
there, but the programmer who coded this solution was telling me the
generalities at php|tek 2 years ago. The pages that saw improvement
were ones with a large number of possible execution branches in
different requests. autoload simply reduced the number of needed files
to the bare minimum from a wide variety of choices.

This surprised me, because the prevailing opinion at the time was that
autoload always reduces performance. The point to take from this story
is that what you think to be true doesn't matter, the only thing is
really understanding where your bottlenecks are by profiling
aggressively, and even more important, why its slow, so you can fix it.

Greg

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

but what Im asking is that the reality?

go and talk to accountant and tell them after spending soansomuch for the
new site hes has to buy a new server ! what will acountant say, what u
think.

another more important point is in reality u take a project on on a specific
hardware base. lets say it a pretty new server fast a mercedes 500 but not a
ferrari V1.
because of ur great reusable code u do an extra ordinary competitive price
bacause u are ready made that fast, u put it on the server and ? womm
because of thausand of includes and stuff the customer is not happy with the
speed.
what u think who is going to pay the new hardware? or better who is going to
cut down the code.

well its me, because as senior consultant i'm taking over the projects from
young programmers who went out of business because the postulations of the
closed contract put them bankrupt.

THATS THE REALITY so guys tell me on a design pattern frame work what
requirements the server should fullfill that I can astimate if the customers
situation will not put me out of business?


"Robert Cummings" wrote in message
news:4A84400A.9090508@interjinn.com...
>
>
> Ralph Deffke wrote:
> > funny then that I see here serious people discussing the benefit of
> > shortening code and cutting out commends.
> >
> > maby thats a general problem of our society that everybody think higher
> > cheaper faster. this will have a limit guys !!! u can not go smaler then
an
> > atom.
> >
> > funny as well that I make my main money in optimizing code to speed and
low
> > server resources. Im one of the old guys who can do both hardware and
> > software and I'm telling u this is suspect to me. I still can build a
> > computer from board and powersupply upward.
> >
> > looks like that u joung guys got a little dream implementet by ur profs.
Did
> > u know that the industry is complaining that the engeneers coming from
the
> > universities are useless for business? a big complain! the real world is
> > different. Hosting companies will always try to keep a server machine as
> > long as they can, because a paid server DOES MAKE MONEY. so where is
then
> > the cheap and fast server. how many servers out there still running on
PHP4?
> > have u thouhgt about?
> >
> > again, design pattern make sence, but on a companies policy base or on a
> > medium upwards sized project. but there will be more languages be
involved
> > in one company it would be much better to use a language independent
tool.
> >
> > again this is chasing mice with an elephant
>
> Except for incompetent algorithms, it is almost always cheaper to throw
> money at a new server than to have a coder micro optimize his/her code.
> Similarly, it is usually cheaper to throw more hardware at a well
> programmed solution that uses modern programming concepts than to have a
> programmer use the most rudimentary of programming techniques to save on
> cycles.
>
> With respect to why you see "shortening of code and cutting out
> comments", perhaps you are referring to the recent Calendar thread,
> where a bunch of us were just having some good old optimization fun. I
> for one enjoy the occasional diversion of optimizing some code just for
> the sake of optimizing it. Sometimes even, the optimization is even the
> cleanest/most readable solution.
>
> Cheers,
> Rob.
> --
> http://www.interjinn.com
> Application and Templating Framework for PHP



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Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

Greg I completly aggree, but dont miss the point that I'M adigted to OOP

WHY NOT A FRAMEWORK CLOSER TO THE REAL POINT CALLED DOM
design pattern for HTML XHTML XML SVG Database conection and retrieving.

WHY CLASSES FOR CALLERS AND RECEIVERS AND INTERPRETERS.

a

RE: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

[snip]
u can not go smaler then an atom.
[/snip]

Neutrons, electrons, gluons, protons .... particles all smaller than an
atom. There are others if you want to get into a discussion of quantum
physics and mechanics, but we should probably take that discussion
offline.

Many folks here are building enterprise capable applications with PHP,
its OOP capabilities and the afore mentioned design patterns. This level
of application, especially when combined with other technologies (like
the bits that make up AJAX), are much better served by using design
patterns so that consistency, readability and code-ability are enhanced.


You're correct in that the end result is just a text file...but look at
the format of that file output! When those files are handled by the
proper container, such as a web browser or relational database system
they become powerful tools and information.



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Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

Ralph Deffke wrote:
> but what Im asking is that the reality?
>
> go and talk to accountant and tell them after spending soansomuch for the
> new site hes has to buy a new server ! what will acountant say, what u
> think.
>
> another more important point is in reality u take a project on on a specific
> hardware base. lets say it a pretty new server fast a mercedes 500 but not a
> ferrari V1.
> because of ur great reusable code u do an extra ordinary competitive price
> bacause u are ready made that fast, u put it on the server and ? womm
> because of thausand of includes and stuff the customer is not happy with the
> speed.
> what u think who is going to pay the new hardware? or better who is going to
> cut down the code.
>
> well its me, because as senior consultant i'm taking over the projects from
> young programmers who went out of business because the postulations of the
> closed contract put them bankrupt.
>
> THATS THE REALITY so guys tell me on a design pattern frame work what
> requirements the server should fullfill that I can astimate if the customers
> situation will not put me out of business?

You could do well to read up on accelerators then since they will save
you a large portion of the inclusion/compilation overhead. As a senior
consultant you should know that. Everything you've mentioned so far is
YOUR reality... possibly shared by others, but so far I'm not seeing too
many coming in with the same problem. As a matter of my own discipline,
I tend towards shallow class hierarchies and lazy loading of libraries.

Cheers,
Rob.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

At 12:32 PM -0400 8/13/09, Robert Cummings wrote:
>With respect to why you see "shortening of code and cutting out
>comments", perhaps you are referring to the recent Calendar thread,
>where a bunch of us were just having some good old optimization fun.
>I for one enjoy the occasional diversion of optimizing some code
>just for the sake of optimizing it. Sometimes even, the optimization
>is even the cleanest/most readable solution.
>
>Cheers,
>Rob.


I agree with Rob.

I would even venture to say that optimization, such as in our
calendar exercise, has nothing to do with the speed of the code but
rather the cleanest/most readable solution.

One can certainly say "This one runs faster" but what does that
matter when we are dealing with a one time operation that takes
milliseconds, or less, to run?

The real savings here is seen in maintainability. How well can the
next programmer (who might be you) figure out what the code is doing?
The time I spend reviewing code is billable. You want to save money,
then hire programmers who write clean and easy to understand code.
Cryptic crap does not mean that you're a clever programmer, it only
shows that you don't know any better.

Cheers,

tedd

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AW: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

--0-1430804876-1250190024=:52565
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

for those of u not being a physician semiconductors are of pretty big =
atoms, but this is not the main problem, =0Athe problem is that u have to c=
ut out structures off these semiconductors=0Ain order to build faster compu=
ters this matters. many physicians believe that we are pretty close to=
a ultimate limit =0Aif we dont procees with the *biological* chips we faci=
ng a limit soon. the other point is the cost, faster chips wount be an=
y cheaper in the future=0Adue to very expencive production processes. =
So we should start thinking in optimization realy. at least some bewareness=
=0Ait will not be endless ralph_deffke@yahoo.de =0A________=
________________________=0AVon: Jay Blanchard =0AAn:=
Ralph Deffke ; php-general@lists.php.net=0AGesendet=
: Donnerstag, den 13. August 2009, 20:15:31 Uhr=0ABetreff: RE: [PHP] Re: Re=
: Re: Design Patterns [snip]=0Au can not go smaler then an atom.=0A[/s=
nip] Neutrons, electrons, gluons, protons .... particles all smaller t=
han an=0Aatom. There are others if you want to get into a discussion of qua=
ntum=0Aphysics and mechanics, but we should probably take that discussion=
=0Aoffline. Many folks here are building enterprise capable applicatio=
ns with PHP,=0Aits OOP capabilities and the afore mentioned design patterns=
... This level=0Aof application, especially when combined with other technolo=
gies (like=0Athe bits that make up AJAX), are much better served by using d=
esign=0Apatterns so that consistency, readability and code-ability are enha=
nced. =0AYou're correct in that the end result is just a text file...b=
ut look at=0Athe format of that file output! When those files are handled b=
y the=0Aproper container, such as a web browser or relational database syst=
em=0Athey become powerful tools and information. =0A
--0-1430804876-1250190024=:52565--

Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

--001485e7ca3694f05b04710a9c24
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 1:00 PM, Ralph Deffke wrote:

> for those of u not being a physician
>
> semiconductors are of pretty big atoms, but this is not the main problem,
> the problem is that u have to cut out structures off these semiconductors
> in order to build faster computers this matters.
>
> many physicians believe that we are pretty close to a ultimate limit
> if we dont procees with the *biological* chips we facing a limit soon.
>
> the other point is the cost, faster chips wount be any cheaper in the
> future
> due to very expencive production processes.
>
> So we should start thinking in optimization realy. at least some bewareness
> it will not be endless
>
> ralph_deffke@yahoo.de


i for one have decided to start off my next server platform for the web,
entirely in assembly ;)

-nathan

--001485e7ca3694f05b04710a9c24--

Re: AW: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

Ralph Deffke wrote:
> for those of u not being a physician
>
> semiconductors are of pretty big atoms, but this is not the main problem,
> the problem is that u have to cut out structures off these semiconductors
> in order to build faster computers this matters.
>
> many physicians believe that we are pretty close to a ultimate limit
> if we dont procees with the *biological* chips we facing a limit soon.
>
> the other point is the cost, faster chips wount be any cheaper in the future
> due to very expencive production processes.
>
> So we should start thinking in optimization realy. at least some bewareness
> it will not be endless
>
> ralph_deffke@yahoo.de
>

My physician had best never mention cutting structures off my semiconductor.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

[snip]. Cryptic crap does
> not mean that you're a clever programmer, it only shows that you don't know
> any better.
[/snip]

I know people like this


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Re: AW: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

At 3:09 PM -0500 8/13/09, Shawn McKenzie wrote:
>Ralph Deffke wrote:
>> for those of u not being a physician
>>
>> semiconductors are of pretty big atoms, but this is not the main problem,
>> the problem is that u have to cut out structures off these semiconductors
> > in order to build faster computers this matters.
>>
>-snip-
> >
>
>My physician had best never mention cutting structures off my semiconductor.
>
>-Shawn

Me too!

I haven't much to spare.

Cheers,

tedd

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Re: AW: Re: Re: Re: Design Patterns

tedd wrote:
> At 3:09 PM -0500 8/13/09, Shawn McKenzie wrote:
>> Ralph Deffke wrote:
>>> for those of u not being a physician
>>>
>>> semiconductors are of pretty big atoms, but this is not the main problem,
>>> the problem is that u have to cut out structures off these semiconductors
>> > in order to build faster computers this matters.
>> -snip-
>> >
>>
>> My physician had best never mention cutting structures off my semiconductor.
>>
>> -Shawn
>
> Me too!
>
> I haven't much to spare.

I've got a baby toe that keeps smashing into various floor level
obstacles. I don't think it does much other than cause me pain :)

Cheers,
Rob.
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