IRC and English

I'm sorry, but is anyone else annoyed by people who attempt to use IRC
jargon on mailing lists? For example, substituting "u" for "you". Oddly
enough, I'm seeing this primarily in foreign language posters, not in
native English speakers. It's often accompanied by English so broken I
don't even bother trying to decypher it, and sometimes an *attitude*
(after which, I blacklist the poster).

Am I the only one? It's okay if I am. Just wondering.

Paul

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Re: IRC and English

Paul M Foster wrote:
> I'm sorry, but is anyone else annoyed by people who attempt to use IRC
> jargon on mailing lists? For example, substituting "u" for "you". Oddly
> enough, I'm seeing this primarily in foreign language posters, not in
> native English speakers. It's often accompanied by English so broken I
> don't even bother trying to decypher it, and sometimes an *attitude*
> (after which, I blacklist the poster).
>
> Am I the only one? It's okay if I am. Just wondering.
>
IRC ??

I haven't used that in years. :)

More likely it is the habits learned in texting carrying over to email.

Stephen

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Re: IRC and English

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 21:06, Paul M Foster wrote:
> I'm sorry, but is anyone else annoyed by people who attempt to use IRC
> jargon on mailing lists? For example, substituting "u" for "you". Oddly
> enough, I'm seeing this primarily in foreign language posters, not in
> native English speakers. It's often accompanied by English so broken I
> don't even bother trying to decypher it, and sometimes an *attitude*
> (after which, I blacklist the poster).
>
> Am I the only one? It's okay if I am. Just wondering.

Same here, Paul. You're correct in associating it primarily with
non-native-English speakers, as well. Worse still: they use that same
language in professional job proposals. Worse beyond that: they are
selected for said jobs. I've dropped clients because they have put me
onto a team with folks like that. Sort of cutting out the bottom of
the barrel, really.

--

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Re: IRC and English

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 09:10:54PM -0400, Stephen wrote:

> Paul M Foster wrote:
>> I'm sorry, but is anyone else annoyed by people who attempt to use IRC
>> jargon on mailing lists? For example, substituting "u" for "you". Oddly
>> enough, I'm seeing this primarily in foreign language posters, not in
>> native English speakers. It's often accompanied by English so broken I
>> don't even bother trying to decypher it, and sometimes an *attitude*
>> (after which, I blacklist the poster).
>>
>> Am I the only one? It's okay if I am. Just wondering.
>>
> IRC ??
>
> I haven't used that in years. :)
>
> More likely it is the habits learned in texting carrying over to email.

I don't text, and seldom IRC, but you're probably right. I think the
jargon is about the same, though probably expanded in texting.

Paul

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Re: IRC and English

Paul M Foster wrote:
> I'm sorry, but is anyone else annoyed by people who attempt to use IRC
> jargon on mailing lists? For example, substituting "u" for "you". Oddly
> enough, I'm seeing this primarily in foreign language posters, not in
> native English speakers. It's often accompanied by English so broken I
> don't even bother trying to decypher it, and sometimes an *attitude*
> (after which, I blacklist the poster).

Actually, it isn't jargon, maybe degenerated (this is english word ?)
dialect of english. Some years earlier, I took the habit to use these
shortcuts (10x, u, eg, etc). Because I learned your langage throught the
Internet. It's why this few sentences are so broken.

If people don't care about their writing, banish them from your life.
I do the same with french. But if you cross someone like me, who juste
would learn better way to speack, please accept our apologies ;)

--
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http://lupusmic.org

Seeking for a position

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Re: IRC and English

At 9:06 PM -0400 8/31/09, Paul M Foster wrote:
>I'm sorry, but is anyone else annoyed by people who attempt to use IRC
>jargon on mailing lists? For example, substituting "u" for "you". Oddly
>enough, I'm seeing this primarily in foreign language posters, not in
>native English speakers. It's often accompanied by English so broken I
>don't even bother trying to decypher it, and sometimes an *attitude*
>(after which, I blacklist the poster).
>
>Am I the only one? It's okay if I am. Just wondering.
>
>Paul

Paul:

u r not the only 1. I h8 that 2!

l8er :)

tedd

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Re: IRC and English

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 9:44 AM, tedd wrote:

> At 9:06 PM -0400 8/31/09, Paul M Foster wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry, but is anyone else annoyed by people who attempt to use IRC
>> jargon on mailing lists? For example, substituting "u" for "you". Oddly
>> enough, I'm seeing this primarily in foreign language posters, not in
>> native English speakers. It's often accompanied by English so broken I
>> don't even bother trying to decypher it, and sometimes an *attitude*
>> (after which, I blacklist the poster).
>>
>> Am I the only one? It's okay if I am. Just wondering.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>
> Paul:
>
> u r not the only 1. I h8 that 2!
>
> l8er :)
>
> tedd
>
> --
> -------
> http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
Yo estoy de acuerdo en que respetar el idioma es importante, aunque claro,
redactando sobre la computadora tiene ciertos "beneficios". Yo, por ejemplo=
,
evito utilizar acentos.

Entiendo que pueda molestarles el hecho de las comunes abreviaturas. Eso es
lo malo del lenguaje. Es de todos y, al mismo tiempo, de nadie. Nadie puede
cambiarlo individualmente, s=F3lo se puede mutar a trav=E9s de su uso por p=
arte
la poblaci=F3n, =E9ste va cambiando d=EDa a d=EDa.

Lamentablemente, a mi modo de ver, los mas j=F3venes son quienes incurren e=
n
este tipo de acciones, y no se reduce solamente al ingles, creo que este
fen=F3meno se da tambien en otros lenguajes (supongo) impulsado por la
deficiencia de los m=E9todos de ingreso de texto de dispositivos moviles.

=BFPor que utilizo el espa=F1ol? Despu=E9s de todo hay una lista para ello.
El mundo en internet est=E9 en ingles y yo, como hispano-hablante debi pasa=
r
por un proceso de varios a=F1os para poder lograr entender, hablar y luego
redactar en ingles. =BFpasaron ustedes por el mismo proceso para participar=
en
esta lista?

Aqui somos muchos, de diferentes paises y culturas, lo importante -a mi mod=
o
de ver- es la comunicaci=F3n, no el medio o la forma. Con lo cual esta
recriminaci=F3n carece totalmente de sentido.

Es realmente triste que en una lista de un lenguaje de "codigo abierto" que
pregona la libre participaci=F3n y el mutuo beneficio a trav=E9s de "compar=
tir
conocimiento" se realize semejante acotaci=F3n; aunque mucho mas triste es =
que
una persona oficialmente perteneciente a dicha comunidad se sume a dicho
reclamo.

Please do not reply that It's a English based list.
Or is it allowed to discriminate here?

As a non-english speaker I feel very uncomfortable with this thread.

With the best intentions for the community, sincerely yours,

Martin Scotta
Spanish Speaker

--0016e647166c8521c9047284cc2d--

Re: IRC and English

--0015174c417420a33d047284e118
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2009/9/1 Martin Scotta

> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 9:44 AM, tedd wrote:
>
> > At 9:06 PM -0400 8/31/09, Paul M Foster wrote:
> >
> >> I'm sorry, but is anyone else annoyed by people who attempt to use IRC
> >> jargon on mailing lists? For example, substituting "u" for "you". Oddl=
y
> >> enough, I'm seeing this primarily in foreign language posters, not in
> >> native English speakers. It's often accompanied by English so broken I
> >> don't even bother trying to decypher it, and sometimes an *attitude*
> >> (after which, I blacklist the poster).
> >>
> >> Am I the only one? It's okay if I am. Just wondering.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >
> > Paul:
> >
> > u r not the only 1. I h8 that 2!
> >
> > l8er :)
> >
> > tedd
> >
> > --
> > -------
> > http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
> >
> >
> > --
> > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
> >
> Yo estoy de acuerdo en que respetar el idioma es importante, aunque claro=
,
> redactando sobre la computadora tiene ciertos "beneficios". Yo, por
> ejemplo,
> evito utilizar acentos.
>
> Entiendo que pueda molestarles el hecho de las comunes abreviaturas. Eso =
es
> lo malo del lenguaje. Es de todos y, al mismo tiempo, de nadie. Nadie pue=
de
> cambiarlo individualmente, s=F3lo se puede mutar a trav=E9s de su uso por=
parte
> la poblaci=F3n, =E9ste va cambiando d=EDa a d=EDa.
>
> Lamentablemente, a mi modo de ver, los mas j=F3venes son quienes incurren=
en
> este tipo de acciones, y no se reduce solamente al ingles, creo que este
> fen=F3meno se da tambien en otros lenguajes (supongo) impulsado por la
> deficiencia de los m=E9todos de ingreso de texto de dispositivos moviles.
>
> =BFPor que utilizo el espa=F1ol? Despu=E9s de todo hay una lista para ell=
o.
> El mundo en internet est=E9 en ingles y yo, como hispano-hablante debi pa=
sar
> por un proceso de varios a=F1os para poder lograr entender, hablar y lueg=
o
> redactar en ingles. =BFpasaron ustedes por el mismo proceso para particip=
ar
> en
> esta lista?
>
> Aqui somos muchos, de diferentes paises y culturas, lo importante -a mi
> modo
> de ver- es la comunicaci=F3n, no el medio o la forma. Con lo cual esta
> recriminaci=F3n carece totalmente de sentido.
>
> Es realmente triste que en una lista de un lenguaje de "codigo abierto" q=
ue
> pregona la libre participaci=F3n y el mutuo beneficio a trav=E9s de "comp=
artir
> conocimiento" se realize semejante acotaci=F3n; aunque mucho mas triste e=
s
> que
> una persona oficialmente perteneciente a dicha comunidad se sume a dicho
> reclamo.
>
> Please do not reply that It's a English based list.
> Or is it allowed to discriminate here?
>
> As a non-english speaker I feel very uncomfortable with this thread.
>
> With the best intentions for the community, sincerely yours,
>
> Martin Scotta
> Spanish Speaker
>

I don't think we were implicating anyone in particular for this kind of
behaviour, Martin, I'm certainly not.

I'm a 'young person' myself (being 17) and do not under any circumstances
write in such a way purely because it's harder to understand.

To be honest, on this list it is mostly the foreign people that tend to use
'u' and such, is it discriminatory to state a fact?

--=20
Luke Slater
:O)

this text is protected by international copyright. it is illegal for
anybody apart from the recipient to keep a copy of this text.
dieser text wird von internationalem urheberrecht geschuetzt. allen
ausser dem/der empfaenger/-in ist untersagt, eine kopie dieses textes
zu behalten.

--0015174c417420a33d047284e118--

Re: IRC and English

On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 11:16 -0300, Martin Scotta wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 9:44 AM, tedd wrote:
>=20
> > At 9:06 PM -0400 8/31/09, Paul M Foster wrote:
> >
> >> I'm sorry, but is anyone else annoyed by people who attempt to use IRC
> >> jargon on mailing lists? For example, substituting "u" for "you". Oddl=
y
> >> enough, I'm seeing this primarily in foreign language posters, not in
> >> native English speakers. It's often accompanied by English so broken I
> >> don't even bother trying to decypher it, and sometimes an *attitude*
> >> (after which, I blacklist the poster).
> >>
> >> Am I the only one? It's okay if I am. Just wondering.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >
> > Paul:
> >
> > u r not the only 1. I h8 that 2!
> >
> > l8er :)
> >
> > tedd
> >
> > --
> > -------
> > http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
> >
> >
> > --
> > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
> >
> Yo estoy de acuerdo en que respetar el idioma es importante, aunque claro=
,
> redactando sobre la computadora tiene ciertos "beneficios". Yo, por ejemp=
lo,
> evito utilizar acentos.
>=20
> Entiendo que pueda molestarles el hecho de las comunes abreviaturas. Eso =
es
> lo malo del lenguaje. Es de todos y, al mismo tiempo, de nadie. Nadie pue=
de
> cambiarlo individualmente, sólo se puede mutar a través de su u=
so por parte
> la población, éste va cambiando día a día.
>=20
> Lamentablemente, a mi modo de ver, los mas jóvenes son quienes incur=
ren en
> este tipo de acciones, y no se reduce solamente al ingles, creo que este
> fenómeno se da tambien en otros lenguajes (supongo) impulsado por la
> deficiencia de los métodos de ingreso de texto de dispositivos movil=
es.
>=20
> ¿Por que utilizo el español? Después de todo hay una lista=
para ello.
> El mundo en internet esté en ingles y yo, como hispano-hablante debi=
pasar
> por un proceso de varios años para poder lograr entender, hablar y l=
uego
> redactar en ingles. ¿pasaron ustedes por el mismo proceso para parti=
cipar en
> esta lista?
>=20
> Aqui somos muchos, de diferentes paises y culturas, lo importante -a mi m=
odo
> de ver- es la comunicación, no el medio o la forma. Con lo cual esta
> recriminación carece totalmente de sentido.
>=20
> Es realmente triste que en una lista de un lenguaje de "codigo abierto" q=
ue
> pregona la libre participación y el mutuo beneficio a través de=
"compartir
> conocimiento" se realize semejante acotación; aunque mucho mas trist=
e es que
> una persona oficialmente perteneciente a dicha comunidad se sume a dicho
> reclamo.
>=20
> Please do not reply that It's a English based list.
> Or is it allowed to discriminate here?
>=20
> As a non-english speaker I feel very uncomfortable with this thread.
>=20
> With the best intentions for the community, sincerely yours,
>=20
> Martin Scotta
> Spanish Speaker

I disagree (and I did translate and read your Spanish message). This
mailing list is English (I'm not sure if similar ones exist for
Spanish-speaking people) so I wouldn't say that the people on the list
can be accused of behaving the same way as these 'txt'ers. While Spanish
is a very popular language, English is by far the most popular language
of the world, being spoken as a main language (not necessarily the
mother tongue though) in more countries than any other. It's also the
most popular second language for those that don't speak it as a main
language.

I think the main point of this thread was to point out the issue of
those who use 'txt spk' for normal conversations. It makes a bit of
sense to do this for phone text messages, and is only natural that it
came to be (character limits on a message, easier to type on a phone,
etc) but there should be no excuse for posters on this list. It takes
barely any more time to type 'you' instead of 'u', but trying to read a
message full of stuff like that, I get a migrane and feel disinclined to
help out purely because it takes too much effort to understand!

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk




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Re: IRC and English

At 3:27 PM +0100 9/1/09, Ashley Sheridan wrote:
>On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 11:16 -0300, Martin Scotta wrote:
>-snip-
> >
>> Martin Scotta
>> Spanish Speaker
>
>I disagree (and I did translate and read your Spanish message). This
>mailing list is English (I'm not sure if similar ones exist for
>Spanish-speaking people) so I wouldn't say that the people on the list
>can be accused of behaving the same way as these 'txt'ers. While Spanish
>is a very popular language, English is by far the most popular language
>of the world, being spoken as a main language (not necessarily the
>mother tongue though) in more countries than any other. It's also the
>most popular second language for those that don't speak it as a main
>language.
>
>I think the main point of this thread was to point out the issue of
>those who use 'txt spk' for normal conversations. It makes a bit of
>sense to do this for phone text messages, and is only natural that it
>came to be (character limits on a message, easier to type on a phone,
>etc) but there should be no excuse for posters on this list. It takes
>barely any more time to type 'you' instead of 'u', but trying to read a
>message full of stuff like that, I get a migrane and feel disinclined to
>help out purely because it takes too much effort to understand!
>
>Thanks,
>Ash

Ash:

I agree with you -- this was not a slam against non-English speaking
people but rather a compliant against those who are too lazy to type
out "you" (instead shorten it to "u").

My take on this is, programming does not allow you to take liberties
with syntax, you must spell exactly as you are required. Likewise,
don't take such liberties with this list. In short, if you want us to
take the time to understand your problem, then don't make our work
harder by requiring us to first figure out the syntax of your
question.

I ignore anyone using shortened words, such as "u" instead of "you".
I figure that they don't want to take the time to ask correctly, then
I don't want to take the time to figure out what they are asking.

Cheers,

tedd

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RE: IRC and English

From: Luke

> 2009/9/1 Martin Scotta
>=20
>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 9:44 AM, tedd wrote:
>>
>> > At 9:06 PM -0400 8/31/09, Paul M Foster wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm sorry, but is anyone else annoyed by people who attempt to use =
IRC
>> >> jargon on mailing lists? For example, substituting "u" for "you". =
Oddly
>> >> enough, I'm seeing this primarily in foreign language posters, not =
in
>> >> native English speakers. It's often accompanied by English so =
broken I
>> >> don't even bother trying to decypher it, and sometimes an =
*attitude*
>> >> (after which, I blacklist the poster).
>> >>
>> >> Am I the only one? It's okay if I am. Just wondering.
>> >>
>> >> Paul
>> >
>> > Paul:
>> >
>> > u r not the only 1. I h8 that 2!
>> >
>> > l8er :)
>> >
>> > tedd
>> >
>> Yo estoy de acuerdo en que respetar el idioma es importante, aunque =
claro,
>> redactando sobre la computadora tiene ciertos "beneficios". Yo, por
>> ejemplo,
>> evito utilizar acentos.
>>
>> Entiendo que pueda molestarles el hecho de las comunes abreviaturas. =
Eso es
>> lo malo del lenguaje. Es de todos y, al mismo tiempo, de nadie. Nadie =
puede
>> cambiarlo individualmente, s=F3lo se puede mutar a trav=E9s de su uso =
por parte
>> la poblaci=F3n, =E9ste va cambiando d=EDa a d=EDa.
>>
>> Lamentablemente, a mi modo de ver, los mas j=F3venes son quienes =
incurren en
>> este tipo de acciones, y no se reduce solamente al ingles, creo que =
este
>> fen=F3meno se da tambien en otros lenguajes (supongo) impulsado por =
la
>> deficiencia de los m=E9todos de ingreso de texto de dispositivos =
moviles.
>>
>> =BFPor que utilizo el espa=F1ol? Despu=E9s de todo hay una lista para =
ello.
>> El mundo en internet est=E9 en ingles y yo, como hispano-hablante =
debi pasar
>> por un proceso de varios a=F1os para poder lograr entender, hablar y =
luego
>> redactar en ingles. =BFpasaron ustedes por el mismo proceso para =
participar
>> en
>> esta lista?
>>
>> Aqui somos muchos, de diferentes paises y culturas, lo importante -a =
mi
>> modo
>> de ver- es la comunicaci=F3n, no el medio o la forma. Con lo cual =
esta
>> recriminaci=F3n carece totalmente de sentido.
>>
>> Es realmente triste que en una lista de un lenguaje de "codigo =
abierto" que
>> pregona la libre participaci=F3n y el mutuo beneficio a trav=E9s de =
"compartir
>> conocimiento" se realize semejante acotaci=F3n; aunque mucho mas =
triste es
>> que
>> una persona oficialmente perteneciente a dicha comunidad se sume a =
dicho
>> reclamo.
>>
>> Please do not reply that It's a English based list.
>> Or is it allowed to discriminate here?
>>
>> As a non-english speaker I feel very uncomfortable with this thread.
>>
>> With the best intentions for the community, sincerely yours,
>>
>> Martin Scotta
>> Spanish Speaker
>>
>=20
> I don't think we were implicating anyone in particular for this kind =
of
> behaviour, Martin, I'm certainly not.
>=20
> I'm a 'young person' myself (being 17) and do not under any =
circumstances
> write in such a way purely because it's harder to understand.
>=20
> To be honest, on this list it is mostly the foreign people that tend =
to use
> 'u' and such, is it discriminatory to state a fact?
>=20
> --=20
> Luke Slater

But is it a fact that can be verified and documented or merely a common =
impression?

Be that as it may, the purpose of this list is to communicate. We all =
come here to get or give help. It is difficult to do that when questions =
or answers are not expressed clearly. If it is too difficult to read the =
question, fewer people are likely to make an effort to understand it =
well enough to reply. So the more effort that goes into making a request =
readable, the more likely there will be useful replies. This is a trade =
off that many of us have to make every day, no matter what language(s) =
we are comfortable with. Ever hold a verbal conversation with a Texan, a =
Bostonian and an Australian all at once?

But often even English speakers have problems expressing themselves in =
written form. It appears to me that most high schools in the USofA =
stopped teaching grammar sometime in the late 1970's. This is actually =
one of the better lists that I read regularly. Texting abbreviations are =
simply the most recent form of corruption. 133t 5p34k is even worse. =
Don't even get me started on homonyms.

Bob McConnell

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RE: IRC and English

On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 11:05 -0400, Bob McConnell wrote:
> From: Luke
>=20
> > 2009/9/1 Martin Scotta
> >=20
> >> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 9:44 AM, tedd wrote:
> >>
> >> > At 9:06 PM -0400 8/31/09, Paul M Foster wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I'm sorry, but is anyone else annoyed by people who attempt to use =
IRC
> >> >> jargon on mailing lists? For example, substituting "u" for "you". O=
ddly
> >> >> enough, I'm seeing this primarily in foreign language posters, not =
in
> >> >> native English speakers. It's often accompanied by English so broke=
n I
> >> >> don't even bother trying to decypher it, and sometimes an *attitude=
*
> >> >> (after which, I blacklist the poster).
> >> >>
> >> >> Am I the only one? It's okay if I am. Just wondering.
> >> >>
> >> >> Paul
> >> >
> >> > Paul:
> >> >
> >> > u r not the only 1. I h8 that 2!
> >> >
> >> > l8er :)
> >> >
> >> > tedd
> >> >
> >> Yo estoy de acuerdo en que respetar el idioma es importante, aunque cl=
aro,
> >> redactando sobre la computadora tiene ciertos "beneficios". Yo, por
> >> ejemplo,
> >> evito utilizar acentos.
> >>
> >> Entiendo que pueda molestarles el hecho de las comunes abreviaturas. E=
so es
> >> lo malo del lenguaje. Es de todos y, al mismo tiempo, de nadie. Nadie =
puede
> >> cambiarlo individualmente, sólo se puede mutar a través de s=
u uso por parte
> >> la población, éste va cambiando día a día.
> >>
> >> Lamentablemente, a mi modo de ver, los mas jóvenes son quienes in=
curren en
> >> este tipo de acciones, y no se reduce solamente al ingles, creo que es=
te
> >> fenómeno se da tambien en otros lenguajes (supongo) impulsado por=
la
> >> deficiencia de los métodos de ingreso de texto de dispositivos mo=
viles.
> >>
> >> ¿Por que utilizo el español? Después de todo hay una li=
sta para ello.
> >> El mundo en internet esté en ingles y yo, como hispano-hablante d=
ebi pasar
> >> por un proceso de varios años para poder lograr entender, hablar =
y luego
> >> redactar en ingles. ¿pasaron ustedes por el mismo proceso para pa=
rticipar
> >> en
> >> esta lista?
> >>
> >> Aqui somos muchos, de diferentes paises y culturas, lo importante -a m=
i
> >> modo
> >> de ver- es la comunicación, no el medio o la forma. Con lo cual e=
sta
> >> recriminación carece totalmente de sentido.
> >>
> >> Es realmente triste que en una lista de un lenguaje de "codigo abierto=
" que
> >> pregona la libre participación y el mutuo beneficio a través=
de "compartir
> >> conocimiento" se realize semejante acotación; aunque mucho mas tr=
iste es
> >> que
> >> una persona oficialmente perteneciente a dicha comunidad se sume a dic=
ho
> >> reclamo.
> >>
> >> Please do not reply that It's a English based list.
> >> Or is it allowed to discriminate here?
> >>
> >> As a non-english speaker I feel very uncomfortable with this thread.
> >>
> >> With the best intentions for the community, sincerely yours,
> >>
> >> Martin Scotta
> >> Spanish Speaker
> >>
> >=20
> > I don't think we were implicating anyone in particular for this kind of
> > behaviour, Martin, I'm certainly not.
> >=20
> > I'm a 'young person' myself (being 17) and do not under any circumstanc=
es
> > write in such a way purely because it's harder to understand.
> >=20
> > To be honest, on this list it is mostly the foreign people that tend to=
use
> > 'u' and such, is it discriminatory to state a fact?
> >=20
> > --=20
> > Luke Slater
>=20
> But is it a fact that can be verified and documented or merely a common i=
mpression?
>=20
> Be that as it may, the purpose of this list is to communicate. We all com=
e here to get or give help. It is difficult to do that when questions or an=
swers are not expressed clearly. If it is too difficult to read the questio=
n, fewer people are likely to make an effort to understand it well enough t=
o reply. So the more effort that goes into making a request readable, the m=
ore likely there will be useful replies. This is a trade off that many of u=
s have to make every day, no matter what language(s) we are comfortable wit=
h. Ever hold a verbal conversation with a Texan, a Bostonian and an Austral=
ian all at once?
>=20
> But often even English speakers have problems expressing themselves in wr=
itten form. It appears to me that most high schools in the USofA stopped te=
aching grammar sometime in the late 1970's. This is actually one of the bet=
ter lists that I read regularly. Texting abbreviations are simply the most =
recent form of corruption. 133t 5p34k is even worse. Don't even get me star=
ted on homonyms.
>=20
> Bob McConnell
>=20
I don't think homonyms are the main problem, I believe it's homophones.
I see a lot of people use "there", "their" and "they're"
interchangeably. The one that really gets my goat though, is 'loose' and
'lose'. Very different words, but to many people, they might as well be
the same!

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk




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Re: IRC and English

At 11:16 AM -0300 9/1/09, Martin Scotta wrote:
>As a non-english speaker I feel very uncomfortable with this thread.

You shouldn't feel uncomfortable because no one is talking about you.

Cheers,

tedd

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Re: IRC and English

On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 13:33 -0400, tedd wrote:
> At 11:16 AM -0300 9/1/09, Martin Scotta wrote:
> >As a non-english speaker I feel very uncomfortable with this thread.
>
> You shouldn't feel uncomfortable because no one is talking about you.
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
>
> --
> -------
> http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
>
I'll second that, I've not once seen you use txt spk, 744t speak, or any
other abominable mess that passes for language these days!

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk




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Re: IRC and English

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 13:36, Ashley Sheridan wrote:
> I'll second that, I've not once seen you use txt spk, 744t speak, or any
> other abominable mess that passes for language these days!

744t speak.... is that like 733t speak 2.0? ;-P

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Re: IRC and English

--=-ModpD8iQE/ciHOO4NTe/
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 14:07 -0400, Daniel Brown wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 13:36, Ashley Sheridan wrote:
> > I'll second that, I've not once seen you use txt spk, 744t speak, or any
> > other abominable mess that passes for language these days!
>
> 744t speak.... is that like 733t speak 2.0? ;-P
>

Yeah, but the newer version...

Damnit, my typing has degraded a little after 11 hours!

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk



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Re: IRC and English

As a monolingual North American, I am also very uncomfortable with this
thread.

A rant about abbreviations/IRC jargon is an appropriate discussion for
list, but criticizing how non-native English speakers write English is
not. This thread began with a mention of the "attitude" that non-native
English speakers have, as if non-native English speakers are a unified
group that are are more likely to have a bad attitude than native
English speakers. Of course such a generalization could make people
uncomfortable.

-jessi

tedd wrote:
> At 11:16 AM -0300 9/1/09, Martin Scotta wrote:
>> As a non-english speaker I feel very uncomfortable with this thread.
>
> You shouldn't feel uncomfortable because no one is talking about you.
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
>


Daniel Brown wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 21:06, Paul M Foster
wrote:
>> I'm sorry, but is anyone else annoyed by people who attempt to use IRC
>> jargon on mailing lists? For example, substituting "u" for "you". Oddly
>> enough, I'm seeing this primarily in foreign language posters, not in
>> native English speakers. It's often accompanied by English so broken I
>> don't even bother trying to decypher it, and sometimes an *attitude*
>> (after which, I blacklist the poster).
>>
>> Am I the only one? It's okay if I am. Just wondering.
>
> Same here, Paul. You're correct in associating it primarily with
> non-native-English speakers, as well. Worse still: they use that same
> language in professional job proposals. Worse beyond that: they are
> selected for said jobs. I've dropped clients because they have put me
> onto a team with folks like that. Sort of cutting out the bottom of
> the barrel, really.
>

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Re: IRC and English

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 17:02, Jessi Berkelhammer wrote:
> As a monolingual North American, I am also very uncomfortable with this
> thread.
>
> A rant about abbreviations/IRC jargon is an appropriate discussion for list,
> but criticizing how non-native English speakers write English is not. This
> thread began with a mention of the "attitude" that non-native English
> speakers have, as if non-native English speakers are a unified group that
> are are more likely to have a bad attitude than native English speakers. Of
> course such a generalization could make people uncomfortable.

If you're going to quote me in your email, at least don't
insinuate that I've said something that I haven't, Jessi.

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Re: IRC and English

On Tue, Sep 01, 2009 at 02:02:31PM -0700, Jessi Berkelhammer wrote:

> As a monolingual North American, I am also very uncomfortable with this
> thread.
>
> A rant about abbreviations/IRC jargon is an appropriate discussion for
> list, but criticizing how non-native English speakers write English is
> not. This thread began with a mention of the "attitude" that non-native
> English speakers have, as if non-native English speakers are a unified
> group that are are more likely to have a bad attitude than native
> English speakers. Of course such a generalization could make people
> uncomfortable.

I would argue that it's perfectly acceptable to criticize how non-native
English speakers write English. But that's neither here nor there.

You've clearly misread or misunderstood the original post, so let's
parse it:

"I'm sorry, but is anyone else annoyed by people who attempt to use IRC
jargon on mailing lists?"

Just a question, aimed at no one in particular, but expressing
annoyance.

"For example, substituting 'u' for 'you'."

Just a statement to clarify the original proposition.

"Oddly enough, I'm seeing this primarily in foreign language posters,
not in native English speakers."

Again, an observation. It does not say *all* foreign language posters
are doing this. It only says that I've observed this *primarily* in
foreign language posters. It doesn't say foreign language posters are
bad or inferior, or even that they're part of al Qaeda. Just that I've
noticed this trend in foreign language posters mostly.

"It's often accompanied by English so broken I don't even bother trying
to decypher it,"

Another observation. It points out that where I've seen IRC-like idioms
in foreign language posters, I've also *often* observed very poor English.
Not *always*, but *often*. Again, I'm not disparaging all foreign
language posters.

"and sometimes an *attitude* (after which, I blacklist the poster)."

Another observation.

So we have the set of IRC-idiom posters. Of those (according to my post)
*primarily* they are foreign language posters. So foreign language
posters who post IRC-idioms are a large subset of IRC-idiom posters. Of
*that* subset, I *often* see very broken English (a subset of the
subset). And *sometimes* I see an "attitude" accompanying the posts (a
subset of the subset of the subset).

Okay? If your native language is English, the above should have been
clear in the first place. And if it's not English, then I've just done
you the favor of parsing it for you. (You can send cash to thank me. ;-)

Paul

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Re: IRC and English

At 2:02 PM -0700 9/1/09, Jessi Berkelhammer wrote:
>As a monolingual North American, I am also very uncomfortable with
>this thread.
>
>A rant about abbreviations/IRC jargon is an appropriate discussion
>for list, but criticizing how non-native English speakers write
>English is not. This thread began with a mention of the "attitude"
>that non-native English speakers have, as if non-native English
>speakers are a unified group that are are more likely to have a bad
>attitude than native English speakers. Of course such a
>generalization could make people uncomfortable.
>
>-jessi
>
>tedd wrote:
>> At 11:16 AM -0300 9/1/09, Martin Scotta wrote:
>>> As a non-english speaker I feel very uncomfortable with this thread.
>>
> > You shouldn't feel uncomfortable because no one is talking about you.
> >

As a fellow monolingual North American, I feel very uncomfortable
about your statement as well. Does any other monolingual North
American feel the same way as I do? Please expound on your feelings
about this most disheartening and distasteful topic. (Boy has this
thread degenerated into some politically correct bullsh#t, huh?)

Look if you are not the one using "u" as a substitute for "you", then
I don't see any support for the discomfort you may feel about this
thread. But you are free to feel as it is your nature (shudder).

If non-English users (or anyone else for that matter) want to use "u"
for "you" that's fine -- but I'll refrain from helping them as well.
I am sure that if I were writing in their language and shortened it
to uncomprehending gibberish, I would receive the same treatment from
them. Why is this so hard to understand -- am I using words that are
two lengthy?

Cheers,

tedd

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Re: IRC and English

tedd wrote:
> At 2:02 PM -0700 9/1/09, Jessi Berkelhammer wrote:
>> As a monolingual North American, I am also very uncomfortable with
>> this thread.
>>
>> A rant about abbreviations/IRC jargon is an appropriate discussion for
>> list, but criticizing how non-native English speakers write English is
>> not. This thread began with a mention of the "attitude" that
>> non-native English speakers have, as if non-native English speakers
>> are a unified group that are are more likely to have a bad attitude
>> than native English speakers. Of course such a generalization could
>> make people uncomfortable.
>>
>> -jessi
>>
>> tedd wrote:
>>> At 11:16 AM -0300 9/1/09, Martin Scotta wrote:
>>>> As a non-english speaker I feel very uncomfortable with this thread.
>>>
>> > You shouldn't feel uncomfortable because no one is talking about you.
>> >
>
> As a fellow monolingual North American, I feel very uncomfortable about
> your statement as well. Does any other monolingual North American feel
> the same way as I do? Please expound on your feelings about this most
> disheartening and distasteful topic. (Boy has this thread degenerated
> into some politically correct bullsh#t, huh?)
>
> Look if you are not the one using "u" as a substitute for "you", then I
> don't see any support for the discomfort you may feel about this thread.
> But you are free to feel as it is your nature (shudder).
>
> If non-English users (or anyone else for that matter) want to use "u"
> for "you" that's fine -- but I'll refrain from helping them as well. I
> am sure that if I were writing in their language and shortened it to
> uncomprehending gibberish, I would receive the same treatment from them.
> Why is this so hard to understand -- am I using words that are two lengthy?
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
>


Words that are two lengthy: "of", "an", "to", "it" (etc.)
Words that are too lengthy: "antidisestablishmentarianism",
"internationalisation" and that other one that begins with "flocci..." something

Sorry tedd :)

+1 on hating l33tsp34k and txtspk though (not tho). The American standardisation
of English spelling did quite enough damage to the beautiful language of
Shakespeare (who couldn't even spell his own name consistently), without any
more neologisms creeping in.

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Re: IRC and English (Bible)

At 9:40 AM +0100 9/2/09, Peter Ford wrote:
>The American standardisation
>of English spelling did quite enough damage to the beautiful language of
>Shakespeare (who couldn't even spell his own name consistently), without any
>more neologisms creeping in.

Okay, Shakespeare... "2B || !2B" is an example of what we were talking about.

As to Shakespeare spelling his name consistently, I can't comment.
But there is a "story" where Shakespeare assisted in the translation
of the King James version of the Bible.

Shakespeare was born in 1564 and supposedly worked on the Bible when
he was 46 years old. The Bible was published one year later in 1611.

In King James version of the Bible one can go to the 46th Psalm and
count 46 words from the beginning and find the work "Shake".
Similarly, one can count 46 words forward from the end of the 46
Psalm and find the word "Spear".

For proof of the word count, here's a link (count for yourself):

http://bartelby.org/108/19/46.html

Was this Shakespeare's addition or a coincidence? It's probably a
coincidence for I find it highly unlikely that Shakespeare influenced
the writing of the Bible, but I find it interesting speculation.

Cheers,

tedd

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RE: IRC and English

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