[Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

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Hi everybody=2C
I'd love to receive your feedback about my last zero dependencies=2C easily=
integrable=2C scalable=2C fast=2C lightweight=2C etc etc Ajax / PHP debugg=
er.

The project has Mit Style License and it is hosted in Google Code:
http://code.google.com/p/formaldehyde/

While this is my blog announcement:
http://webreflection.blogspot.com/2009/09/formaldehyde-ajax- php-error-debug=
ger.html

I hope you'll appreciate the code=2C the concept=2C and the simplicity=2C b=
ut here I am to know your concerns=2C or generally speaking=2C your opinion=
..

Best Regards=2C
Andrea Giammarchi
=20
____________________________________________________________ _____
With Windows Live=2C you can organize=2C edit=2C and share your photos.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/prod ucts/photo-gall=
ery-edit.aspx=

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RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

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Being something nobody thought before I was expecting some comment ... zero=
Ajax developers here?
Anyway=2C to make things even more simple I have released the Zero Config c=
lient side file=2C which works with most known browsers=2C IE included=2C a=
nd it does not require a single change in existent code=2C libraries includ=
ed.

Enjoy (if any) http://code.google.com/p/formaldehyde/

From: an_red@hotmail.com
To: php-general@lists.php.net
Subject: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
Date: Sat=2C 5 Sep 2009 19:41:53 +0200








Hi everybody=2C
I'd love to receive your feedback about my last zero dependencies=2C easily=
integrable=2C scalable=2C fast=2C lightweight=2C etc etc Ajax / PHP debugg=
er.

The project has Mit Style License and it is hosted in Google Code:
http://code.google.com/p/formaldehyde/

While this is my blog announcement:
http://webreflection.blogspot.com/2009/09/formaldehyde-ajax- php-error-debug=
ger.html

I hope you'll appreciate the code=2C the concept=2C and the simplicity=2C b=
ut here I am to know your concerns=2C or generally speaking=2C your opinion=
..

Best Regards=2C
Andrea Giammarchi
=20
With Windows Live=2C you can organize=2C edit=2C and share your photos.
____________________________________________________________ _____
Share your memories online with anyone you want.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/prod ucts/photos-sha=
re.aspx?tab=3D1=

--_4d97ff99-da5f-45cc-b668-bb6f117c9abb_--

RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

At 11:35 PM +0200 9/10/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
>Being something nobody thought before I was expecting some comment
>... zero Ajax developers here?

Andrea:

No, I develop in ajax. Here's one of my demos:

http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/

Please note that the above site can be expanded/edited/altered
without ever touching the ajax code that makes it work. As such, I
don't need an ajax debugger because the above is an example of an
ajax site that never needs any ajax debugging.

Please note. the above is dead in the water with javascript disabled.
But I have ways around that.

Cheers,

tedd

--
-------
http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com

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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP ErrorDebugger

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That's a finished production site ... how did you debug during its developm=
ent? 'Cause Formaldehyde is for development=2C not for production ... I gue=
ss you have implented your own error manager/debugger=2C right?

Well=2C with Formaldehyde you do not need to implement anything.

Moreover=2C ASAIK=2C Formaldehyde is the only one able to catch even Fatal =
Error ... in few words=2C it catches everything.

I would like to know other opinions=2C I mean people that actually spent fe=
w minutes to understand what is Formaldehyde before they reply ...

Regards

> Date: Fri=2C 11 Sep 2009 08:38:47 -0400
> To: an_red@hotmail.com=3B php-general@lists.php.net
> From: tedd.sperling@gmail.com
> Subject: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugge=
r
>=20
> At 11:35 PM +0200 9/10/09=2C Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
> >Being something nobody thought before I was expecting some comment=20
> >... zero Ajax developers here?
>=20
> Andrea:
>=20
> No=2C I develop in ajax. Here's one of my demos:
>=20
> http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/
>=20
> Please note that the above site can be expanded/edited/altered=20
> without ever touching the ajax code that makes it work. As such=2C I=20
> don't need an ajax debugger because the above is an example of an=20
> ajax site that never needs any ajax debugging.
>=20
> Please note. the above is dead in the water with javascript disabled.=20
> But I have ways around that.
>=20
> Cheers=2C
>=20
> tedd
>=20
> --=20
> -------
> http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
>=20
> --=20
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe=2C visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>=20

____________________________________________________________ _____
Share your memories online with anyone you want.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/prod ucts/photos-sha=
re.aspx?tab=3D1=

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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

At 3:27 PM +0200 9/11/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
>That's a finished production site ... how did you debug during its
>development? 'Cause Formaldehyde is for development, not for
>production ... I guess you have implented your own error
>manager/debugger, right?

What's to debug?

The site --

http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/

-- uses a very simple ajax script, namely:

http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js

Outside of that, everything else is done in php, html, and css, which
is completely separate from ajax. I can create a very extensive and
complicated site using that simple ajax routine without any
alteration whatsoever. I don't need a debugger because I never touch
the code.

Now maybe I'm not getting it, but from my perspective ajax is pretty
simple. The point I'm getting at is that ajax is simply a method of
communication -- you send stuff and you read stuff. You don't need to
rewrite the US Postal Service every time you send/receive a letter.

Cheers,

tedd
--
-------
http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com

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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

On Fri, 2009-09-11 at 10:35 -0400, tedd wrote:
> At 3:27 PM +0200 9/11/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
> >That's a finished production site ... how did you debug during its
> >development? 'Cause Formaldehyde is for development, not for
> >production ... I guess you have implented your own error
> >manager/debugger, right?
>
> What's to debug?
>
> The site --
>
> http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/
>
> -- uses a very simple ajax script, namely:
>
> http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js
>
> Outside of that, everything else is done in php, html, and css, which
> is completely separate from ajax. I can create a very extensive and
> complicated site using that simple ajax routine without any
> alteration whatsoever. I don't need a debugger because I never touch
> the code.
>
> Now maybe I'm not getting it, but from my perspective ajax is pretty
> simple. The point I'm getting at is that ajax is simply a method of
> communication -- you send stuff and you read stuff. You don't need to
> rewrite the US Postal Service every time you send/receive a letter.
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
> --
> -------
> http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
>

I agree. I tend to reuse the same basic functionality whenever I use
AJAX. With some half-decent unit-testing, you can debug the Javascript
parts easily enough.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk




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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

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How do you debug Ajax calls? I am starting to think you do not do it=2C or =
your applications are extremely simple... do you transform only at the end =
the result? How do you debug the transformation if something go wrong? How =
do you test via client if something goes wrong? You simply do not care=2C o=
k=2C fine=2C Formaldehyde is not for you=2C not today at least.

Thanks for the reply in any case=2C better than nothing.

Regards

> Date: Fri=2C 11 Sep 2009 10:35:43 -0400
> To: an_red@hotmail.com=3B php-general@lists.php.net
> From: tedd.sperling@gmail.com
> Subject: RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error De=
bugger
>=20
> At 3:27 PM +0200 9/11/09=2C Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
> >That's a finished production site ... how did you debug during its=20
> >development? 'Cause Formaldehyde is for development=2C not for=20
> >production ... I guess you have implented your own error=20
> >manager/debugger=2C right?
>=20
> What's to debug?
>=20
> The site --
>=20
> http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/
>=20
> -- uses a very simple ajax script=2C namely:
>=20
> http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js
>=20
> Outside of that=2C everything else is done in php=2C html=2C and css=2C w=
hich=20
> is completely separate from ajax. I can create a very extensive and=20
> complicated site using that simple ajax routine without any=20
> alteration whatsoever. I don't need a debugger because I never touch=20
> the code.
>=20
> Now maybe I'm not getting it=2C but from my perspective ajax is pretty=20
> simple. The point I'm getting at is that ajax is simply a method of=20
> communication -- you send stuff and you read stuff. You don't need to=20
> rewrite the US Postal Service every time you send/receive a letter.
>=20
> Cheers=2C
>=20
> tedd
> --=20
> -------
> http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
>=20
> --=20
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe=2C visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>=20

____________________________________________________________ _____
With Windows Live=2C you can organize=2C edit=2C and share your photos.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/prod ucts/photo-gall=
ery-edit.aspx=

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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

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So nobody here debugs interaction and nobody uses Selenium for application =
tests ... fair enough.

Would be nice to receive some response for those developers whose deal ever=
yday with big/complex applications=2C 'cause here seems nobody i susing Fir=
ePHP or frameworks debuggers while numbers tell me the scenario is totally =
different.

Regards

> Subject: RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error De=
bugger
> From: ash@ashleysheridan.co.uk
> To: tedd.sperling@gmail.com
> CC: an_red@hotmail.com=3B php-general@lists.php.net
> Date: Fri=2C 11 Sep 2009 15:39:12 +0100
>=20
> On Fri=2C 2009-09-11 at 10:35 -0400=2C tedd wrote:
> > At 3:27 PM +0200 9/11/09=2C Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
> > >That's a finished production site ... how did you debug during its=20
> > >development? 'Cause Formaldehyde is for development=2C not for=20
> > >production ... I guess you have implented your own error=20
> > >manager/debugger=2C right?
> >=20
> > What's to debug?
> >=20
> > The site --
> >=20
> > http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/
> >=20
> > -- uses a very simple ajax script=2C namely:
> >=20
> > http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js
> >=20
> > Outside of that=2C everything else is done in php=2C html=2C and css=2C=
which=20
> > is completely separate from ajax. I can create a very extensive and=20
> > complicated site using that simple ajax routine without any=20
> > alteration whatsoever. I don't need a debugger because I never touch=20
> > the code.
> >=20
> > Now maybe I'm not getting it=2C but from my perspective ajax is pretty=
=20
> > simple. The point I'm getting at is that ajax is simply a method of=20
> > communication -- you send stuff and you read stuff. You don't need to=20
> > rewrite the US Postal Service every time you send/receive a letter.
> >=20
> > Cheers=2C
> >=20
> > tedd
> > --=20
> > -------
> > http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
> >=20
>=20
> I agree. I tend to reuse the same basic functionality whenever I use
> AJAX. With some half-decent unit-testing=2C you can debug the Javascript
> parts easily enough.
>=20
> Thanks=2C
> Ash
> http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk
>=20
>=20
>=20

____________________________________________________________ _____
Share your memories online with anyone you want.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/prod ucts/photos-sha=
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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

--------------060204010703070609040700
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I do use FirePHP and your project looks interesting to evaluate. Will
check it out in a couple of days. It would be more interesting if they
really are complimentary.

I think people who use FireBug's console API would be able to appreciate
FirePHP/formaldehyde more. However, I do NOT deny the fact that not
every project needs them.

--Bipin Upadhyay.

Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
> So nobody here debugs interaction and nobody uses Selenium for application tests ... fair enough.
>
> Would be nice to receive some response for those developers whose deal everyday with big/complex applications, 'cause here seems nobody i susing FirePHP or frameworks debuggers while numbers tell me the scenario is totally different.
>
> Regards
>
>
>> Subject: RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger
>> From: ash@ashleysheridan.co.uk
>> To: tedd.sperling@gmail.com
>> CC: an_red@hotmail.com; php-general@lists.php.net
>> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:39:12 +0100
>>
>> On Fri, 2009-09-11 at 10:35 -0400, tedd wrote:
>>
>>> At 3:27 PM +0200 9/11/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
>>>
>>>> That's a finished production site ... how did you debug during its
>>>> development? 'Cause Formaldehyde is for development, not for
>>>> production ... I guess you have implented your own error
>>>> manager/debugger, right?
>>>>
>>> What's to debug?
>>>
>>> The site --
>>>
>>> http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/
>>>
>>> -- uses a very simple ajax script, namely:
>>>
>>> http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js
>>>
>>> Outside of that, everything else is done in php, html, and css, which
>>> is completely separate from ajax. I can create a very extensive and
>>> complicated site using that simple ajax routine without any
>>> alteration whatsoever. I don't need a debugger because I never touch
>>> the code.
>>>
>>> Now maybe I'm not getting it, but from my perspective ajax is pretty
>>> simple. The point I'm getting at is that ajax is simply a method of
>>> communication -- you send stuff and you read stuff. You don't need to
>>> rewrite the US Postal Service every time you send/receive a letter.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> tedd
>>> --
>>> -------
>>> http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
>>>
>>>
>> I agree. I tend to reuse the same basic functionality whenever I use
>> AJAX. With some half-decent unit-testing, you can debug the Javascript
>> parts easily enough.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ash
>> http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________________ _____
> Share your memories online with anyone you want.
> http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/prod ucts/photos-share.aspx?tab=1
>

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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP ErrorDebugger

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Agreed=2C I have never said that=2C but I cannot even think about a modern =
website developed without browser tools such Firebug or others. That is why=
I was kinda surprised by zero reaction.

Your feedback will be more than welcome=2C thanks.

Regards

Date: Fri=2C 11 Sep 2009 20:39:21 +0530
From: muxical.geek@gmail.com
To: an_red@hotmail.com
CC: ash@ashleysheridan.co.uk=3B tedd.sperling@gmail.com=3B php-general@list=
s.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debug=
ger






=20


I do use FirePHP and your project looks interesting to evaluate. Will
check it out in a couple of days. It would be more interesting if they
really are complimentary.



I think people who use FireBug's console API would be able to
appreciate FirePHP/formaldehyde more. However=2C I do NOT deny the fact
that not every project needs them.
____________________________________________________________ _____
Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites.=20
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/events .aspx=

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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

At 4:54 PM +0200 9/11/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
>How do you debug Ajax calls? I am starting to think you do not do
>it, or your applications are extremely simple... do you transform
>only at the end the result? How do you debug the transformation if
>something go wrong? How do you test via client if something goes
>wrong? You simply do not care, ok, fine, Formaldehyde is not for
>you, not today at least.

Maybe I don't get it, but why should I debug ajax calls?

In my example, namely --

http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/

-- the ajax routine simply receives strings from a user's action
(i.e., user clicks a specific link) and then the ajax routine
provides those exact same strings to one of my php scripts. The only
things that may go wrong are in the data I am sending to the ajax
routine AND/OR the way my php scripts deal with the data when they
receive it. In either case, ajax is not at fault. It is no more at
fault than a simple GET statement.

Now one can say, "Let's create a debugger that examines the innards
of a GET statement so we can test it if something goes wrong." But I
ask why?

It's not that I don't care, it's more that I don't need to complicate
a very simple process.

Examine this:

http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js

Now, where can something go wrong?

The script simply receives data and sends it on to a php script.
Despite all the hype, that's all that ajax does. As I am doing here,
it's simply just another way to handle GET's. Why make it more
complicated than need be?

Cheers,

tedd


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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

> Examine this:
>
> http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js
>
> Now, where can something go wrong?

I suppose slave.php could fail with a 4xx or 5xx response. Then, most
likely, the user would be left clicking on a link that does nothing.
In an edge case the body of the error-response might include a '|'
character, which would really mix things up.

Certainly, you wouldn't /need/ Formaldehyde to debug this, but it
might make the process a bit simpler -- if I read the docs correctly,
Formaldehyde would let you see and grasp the whole problem instantly
from a browser, without having to resort to web-server logs, etc.

Ben

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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




> Date: Fri=2C 11 Sep 2009 12:37:30 -0400
> To: an_red@hotmail.com=3B php-general@lists.php.net
> From: tedd.sperling@gmail.com
> Subject: RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error D=
ebugger
> The only=20
> things that may go wrong are in the data I am sending to the ajax=20
> routine AND/OR the way my php scripts deal with the data when they=20
> receive it.

Formaldehyde tells you in the client debugger what was wrong in the php cod=
e indeed.
Did you actually read the page before you replied?



> Examine this:
>=20
> http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js
>=20
> Now=2C where can something go wrong?

In the PHP Page=2C that is what Formaldehyde is about!!!

____________________________________________________________ _____
Drag n=92 drop=97Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live=99 Photos.

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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP ErrorDebugger

--_88df66f1-a12a-453b-949a-922e119684cd_
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Exactly Ben=2C except when PHP fails=2C even with a Fatal Error=2C the page=
has status 200=2C we need to understand which call failed between hundreds=
of potential calls in the debugger=2C and errors could pass silently.

With Formaldehyde=2C accordingly with your predefined error_reporting level=
=2C above situation will never happen=2C and the entire process=2C without =
changing anything=2C will be much simpler=2C as Ben already described.

So yes Tedd=2C you did not even read what is Formaldehyde about ... please =
try to understand it before other comments=2C maybe you'll discover it's ex=
tremely simple=2C and hopefully useful.

Regards

> Date: Fri=2C 11 Sep 2009 10:43:23 -0700
> Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Deb=
ugger
> From: bdunlap@agentintellect.com
> To: tedd.sperling@gmail.com
> CC: an_red@hotmail.com=3B php-general@lists.php.net
>=20
> > Examine this:
> >
> > http://webbytedd.com/a/ajax-site/js/a.js
> >
> > Now=2C where can something go wrong?
>=20
> I suppose slave.php could fail with a 4xx or 5xx response. Then=2C most
> likely=2C the user would be left clicking on a link that does nothing.
> In an edge case the body of the error-response might include a '|'
> character=2C which would really mix things up.
>=20
> Certainly=2C you wouldn't /need/ Formaldehyde to debug this=2C but it
> might make the process a bit simpler -- if I read the docs correctly=2C
> Formaldehyde would let you see and grasp the whole problem instantly
> from a browser=2C without having to resort to web-server logs=2C etc.
>=20
> Ben

____________________________________________________________ _____
Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites.=20
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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 12:23:44AM +0200, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:

>
> Exactly Ben, except when PHP fails, even with a Fatal Error, the page has status 200, we need to understand which call failed between hundreds of potential calls in the debugger, and errors could pass silently.
>
> With Formaldehyde, accordingly with your predefined error_reporting level, above situation will never happen, and the entire process, without changing anything, will be much simpler, as Ben already described.
>
> So yes Tedd, you did not even read what is Formaldehyde about ... please try to understand it before other comments, maybe you'll discover it's extremely simple, and hopefully useful.
>

I suspect your English is getting in the way. You're calling this an
AJAX debugger. Debugging in PHP is relatively straightforward, if you
set the error level properly and build your own error handler, etc. So
people on this list would probably think of a PHP debugger as an
unimportant piece of software. Debugging in Javascript is more complex
and difficult, and the responses you're getting on the list sound like
people think Formaldehyde is for debugging Javascript (which PHP
programmers often aren't very interested in). On the Google code page
for Formaldehyde, you only emphasize PHP debugging, as that's the only
type of error example you give.

If the point of Formaldehyde is to debug PHP code, then you should call
it a "PHP code debugger", not an "AJAX code debugger". Tedd's right--
basic AJAX transactions are incredibly simple, and once the code is
written (it can be copied from any number of books), it needs no further
work. General Javascript is a different matter-- it can be quite complex
and quite hard to debug. But AJAX is a very narrow application of
Javascript.

If Formaldehyde is really a debugger for AJAX code, then you should
change the examples and text of your Google code page.

If Formaldehyde is really a debugger for Javascript code, then you
should change the examples on your Google code page to show Javascript
errors, and call it a "Javascript debugger".

If Formaldehyde is really a debugger for PHP code, then call it a "PHP
code debugger". The examples on your Google code page fit this.

Paul

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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

I dont think I understood you completely..

Javascript debugger: Something you use to debug javascript. but
Formaldehyde dosent make any seance if xhr object is not used.
PHP Debugger: We cant use Formaldehyde to debug errors in every single
PHP script. I am talking about pages called directly via the browsers
URL bar. FirePHP on the other hand can be used with all PHP scripts.
AJAX Debugger: I think the example given in Formaldehyde Google code
page fits this category. If not may be you can give an example ?

@Andera May be you should consider using application/json as the
content type instead of text/plain.
The Response text given by Formaldehyde cannot be understood manually
(for example if I use jQuery.load()).
Had the content type been application/json firebug parses it by default

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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

> @Andera May be you should consider using application/json as the
> content type instead of text/plain.
> The Response text given by =A0Formaldehyde cannot be understood manually
> (for example if I use jQuery.load()).
> Had the content type been application/json firebug parses it by default

my mistake.

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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error

--_a715dd42-8839-4b0a-8748-3699b1169bbc_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


my english is not perfect=2C right ... but let me unsderline something.

The subject:

[Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax ------> - <-------- *PHP* *Error* *Deb=
ugger*

It's a PHP Error Debugger specially suited for Ajax interactions.

Secondly=2C
The set_error_handler is not enough=2C write it even upside down and most c=
rucial error like these will not be managed:

E_ERROR=2C E_PARSE=2C E_CORE_ERROR=2C E_CORE_WARNING=2C E_COMPILE_ERROR=2C =
E_COMPILE_WARNING=2C E_STRICT
Finally=2C this is the first code example in Formaldehyde page:


echo 'Hello'=2C *iDoNotExist*()=2C ' '=2C 'World'=3B

?>
And the first result image:

http://www.3site.eu/formaldehyde/no-formaldehyde.gif

Which clearly *is* about an unmanaged Fatal Error

Ajax responses are usually different=2C even if the called page is the same=
=2C and the reason could be an X-Request-With: XMLHttpHeader header=2C usua=
lly set by default with every library and for each Ajax interation.

I like to reply about a subject=2C after I understand what is the subject i=
s about ... but you are right=2C my English is not perfect=2C but PHP devel=
opers should be more careful about what PHP debug is=2C what is possible to=
do with set_error_handler=2C and how Formaldehyde manage *any* *kind* of *=
php* *error*=2C something I cannot find in any other library or framework.

Regards


> Date: Sat=2C 12 Sep 2009 00:20:58 -0400
> From: paulf@quillandmouse.com
> To: php-general@lists.php.net
> Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Deb=
ugger
>=20
> On Sat=2C Sep 12=2C 2009 at 12:23:44AM +0200=2C Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
>=20
> >=20
> > Exactly Ben=2C except when PHP fails=2C even with a Fatal Error=2C the =
page has status 200=2C we need to understand which call failed between hund=
reds of potential calls in the debugger=2C and errors could pass silently.
> >=20
> > With Formaldehyde=2C accordingly with your predefined error_reporting l=
evel=2C above situation will never happen=2C and the entire process=2C with=
out changing anything=2C will be much simpler=2C as Ben already described.
> >=20
> > So yes Tedd=2C you did not even read what is Formaldehyde about ... ple=
ase try to understand it before other comments=2C maybe you'll discover it'=
s extremely simple=2C and hopefully useful.
> >=20
>=20
> I suspect your English is getting in the way. You're calling this an
> AJAX debugger. Debugging in PHP is relatively straightforward=2C if you
> set the error level properly and build your own error handler=2C etc. So
> people on this list would probably think of a PHP debugger as an
> unimportant piece of software. Debugging in Javascript is more complex
> and difficult=2C and the responses you're getting on the list sound like
> people think Formaldehyde is for debugging Javascript (which PHP
> programmers often aren't very interested in). On the Google code page
> for Formaldehyde=2C you only emphasize PHP debugging=2C as that's the onl=
y
> type of error example you give.
>=20
> If the point of Formaldehyde is to debug PHP code=2C then you should call
> it a "PHP code debugger"=2C not an "AJAX code debugger". Tedd's right--
> basic AJAX transactions are incredibly simple=2C and once the code is
> written (it can be copied from any number of books)=2C it needs no furthe=
r
> work. General Javascript is a different matter-- it can be quite complex
> and quite hard to debug. But AJAX is a very narrow application of
> Javascript.
>=20
> If Formaldehyde is really a debugger for AJAX code=2C then you should
> change the examples and text of your Google code page.
>=20
> If Formaldehyde is really a debugger for Javascript code=2C then you
> should change the examples on your Google code page to show Javascript
> errors=2C and call it a "Javascript debugger".
>=20
> If Formaldehyde is really a debugger for PHP code=2C then call it a "PHP
> code debugger". The examples on your Google code page fit this.
>=20
> Paul
>=20
> --=20
> Paul M. Foster
>=20
> --=20
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe=2C visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>=20

____________________________________________________________ _____
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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP ErrorDebugger

--_32723ae0-2d8e-4afa-a6fa-d6014e63c966_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Ajax interactions usually produces different results=2C 'cause an Ajax inte=
raction that returns an entire document does not make much sense.
Formaldehyde is for Ajax interaction=2C which "in my case" I always catch v=
ia headers checks or special parameters.

Formaldehyde is client agnostic=2C FireBUG or FirePHP could or could not be=
there=2C but providing both server and client code=2C we do not have to wo=
rry about anything.

Finally=2C even if called manually=2C the page will have a status 500 and t=
he error will be still readable=2C being it the first JSON encoded key but =
obviously=2C for manual interactions it is extremely simple to spot the err=
or=2C if any=2C since PHP clearly shows it in the page=2C if there are no o=
ther debuggers.

The stuff about application/json does not make much sense to me=2C and Fire=
BUG shows automatically things passed via eval=2C it is not about the respo=
nse type (also because it could simply be a security problem)

Again=2C Formaldehyde=2C is client side agnostic=2C so if we have IE=2C rat=
her than Firefox=2C or Safari=2C Chrome=2C Opera=2C Formaldehyde will work=
=2C helping with unmanaged PHP errors (or managed one=2C if we manually thr=
ow an exception or trigger an error)

Regards

> From: kranthi117@gmail.com
> Date: Sat=2C 12 Sep 2009 11:39:43 +0530
> To: paulf@quillandmouse.com
> CC: php-general@lists.php.net
> Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Deb=
ugger
>=20
> I dont think I understood you completely..
>=20
> Javascript debugger: Something you use to debug javascript. but
> Formaldehyde dosent make any seance if xhr object is not used.
> PHP Debugger: We cant use Formaldehyde to debug errors in every single
> PHP script. I am talking about pages called directly via the browsers
> URL bar. FirePHP on the other hand can be used with all PHP scripts.
> AJAX Debugger: I think the example given in Formaldehyde Google code
> page fits this category. If not may be you can give an example ?
>=20
> @Andera May be you should consider using application/json as the
> content type instead of text/plain.
> The Response text given by Formaldehyde cannot be understood manually
> (for example if I use jQuery.load()).
> Had the content type been application/json firebug parses it by default
>=20
> --=20
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe=2C visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>=20

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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP ErrorDebugger

--_ff1e80ff-a1d4-449d-bedf-30a31246523d_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


as margin note=2C the project page changed name=2C hopefully less ambiguous=
:

Formandehyde - Zero Config Ajax Based PHP Error Debugger

Regards

____________________________________________________________ _____
Drag n=92 drop=97Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live=99 Photos.

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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

At 12:20 AM +0200 9/12/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 12:37:30 -0400
>> To: an_red@hotmail.com; php-general@lists.php.net
>> From: tedd.sperling@gmail.com
>> Subject: RE: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP
>>Error Debugger
>> The only
>> things that may go wrong are in the data I am sending to the ajax
>> routine AND/OR the way my php scripts deal with the data when they
>> receive it.
>
>Formaldehyde tells you in the client debugger what was wrong in the
>php code indeed.
>Did you actually read the page before you replied?

No, I didn't read the page before I replied. YOU asked a question and
I replied (read the thread) -- I'm sorry that I did. I'll refrain
from doing it again.

tedd

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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
> something I cannot find in any other library or framework.

This should tell you something then...

--
Jim Lucas

"Some men are born to greatness, some achieve greatness,
and some have greatness thrust upon them."

Twelfth Night, Act II, Scene V
by William Shakespeare

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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

--0014852f5fb240139e0473676620
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 8:47 PM, Jim Lucas wrote:

> Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
>
>> something I cannot find in any other library or framework.
>>
>
> This should tell you something then...
>
> If something like Formandehyde isn't useful, then why is Charles so popular
(note: popular from my perspective. I wouldn't dare think that it is popular
with anyone on this list unless they expressly told me so)
http://www.charlesproxy.com/ . I can't say anything about the responses
Andrea has gotten without sounding rude and likely starting an internet
fight, so I won't say anything. Except for this. Tedd, the ajax example you
linked to does not need any debugging, that is for sure.


> --
> Jim Lucas
>
> "Some men are born to greatness, some achieve greatness,
> and some have greatness thrust upon them."
>
> Twelfth Night, Act II, Scene V
> by William Shakespeare
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

--0014852f5fb240139e0473676620--

RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error

--_cbff1b67-7007-4282-b045-c8aeee71adb1_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


That I created some fresh air or something new? Sure=2C thanks

> Date: Sat=2C 12 Sep 2009 11:47:27 -0700
> From: lists@cmsws.com
> To: an_red@hotmail.com
> CC: paulf@quillandmouse.com=3B php-general@lists.php.net
> Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Deb=
ugger
>=20
> Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
> > something I cannot find in any other library or framework.
>=20
> This should tell you something then...
>=20
> --=20
> Jim Lucas
>=20
> "Some men are born to greatness=2C some achieve greatness=2C
> and some have greatness thrust upon them."
>=20
> Twelfth Night=2C Act II=2C Scene V
> by William Shakespeare

____________________________________________________________ _____
Drag n=92 drop=97Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live=99 Photos.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos .aspx=

--_cbff1b67-7007-4282-b045-c8aeee71adb1_--

RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP ErrorDebugger

--_c16544ca-8155-4da7-a800-5f1a3e23b8a7_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


I can only say if these are our prespective about innovation and technologi=
es=2C we need to thanks silly people like me moving further than what is al=
ready there and common convention.

This ML is a bit different from what I was expecting=2C fortunately who und=
erstood the project and gave it a try to test it has been happy with it.

Finally=2C I am working with FirePHP developer for a FirePHP + Formaldehyde=
natural integration in FirePHP and obviously he liked Formaldehyde=2C sinc=
e there's nothing like that inside FirePHP - they are simply different=2C a=
nd FirePHP does not manage Fatal Errors and other crucial one.

The good part is that at least you know there is that possibility=2C so the=
day you'll realize that your set_error_handler could be useless in certain=
circumstances you'll probably re-evaluate Formaldehyde =3B-)

Thanks to those who tried or tried to understand.

Regards

P.S. I am certified Zend Engineer with 10 years of experience with PHP and =
dunno how many innovation awards in phpclasses.org ... so it was not just =
to waste my time guys=2C and it is open source=2C maybe next time I'll keep=
for me

> From: jasdebord@gmail.com
> Date: Sat=2C 12 Sep 2009 22:37:01 +0200
> To: php-general@lists.php.net
> Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Deb=
ugger
>=20
> On Sat=2C Sep 12=2C 2009 at 8:47 PM=2C Jim Lucas wrote:
>=20
> > Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
> >
> >> something I cannot find in any other library or framework.
> >>
> >
> > This should tell you something then...
> >
> > If something like Formandehyde isn't useful=2C then why is Charles so p=
opular
> (note: popular from my perspective. I wouldn't dare think that it is popu=
lar
> with anyone on this list unless they expressly told me so)
> http://www.charlesproxy.com/ . I can't say anything about the responses
> Andrea has gotten without sounding rude and likely starting an internet
> fight=2C so I won't say anything. Except for this. Tedd=2C the ajax examp=
le you
> linked to does not need any debugging=2C that is for sure.
>=20
>=20
> > --
> > Jim Lucas
> >
> > "Some men are born to greatness=2C some achieve greatness=2C
> > and some have greatness thrust upon them."
> >
> > Twelfth Night=2C Act II=2C Scene V
> > by William Shakespeare
> >
> >
> > --
> > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > To unsubscribe=2C visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
> >

____________________________________________________________ _____
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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 01:33:49PM +0200, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:



>
> This ML is a bit different from what I was expecting,



>
> P.S. I am certified Zend Engineer with 10 years of experience with PHP and dunno how many innovation awards in phpclasses.org ... so it was not just to waste my time guys, and it is open source, maybe next time I'll keep for me

Yeah, we people on this list just don't get it.

So, you're gonna leave the list now, right?

Paul

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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

What does this offer that a real debugger, like xdebug, doesn't?

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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

Hello Andrea,

I am developing with PHP since now 12 years (did a couple stuff in
Zend Core), and was one of a few guy using and sharing about php when
it was only an THE Apache mode in the world C++ CGI, I am not Zend
Certified, I won't :), anyway those things make me smarter or give me
the "truth" or the right to be a jerk?,

you came here to claim that you were right not to discuss, what did
you expect?, if you want to discuss we can, but I can tell you I don't
share your points at all, it is not my way to code in scripting
language. back to silence.

Best,

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Andrea Giammarchi wro=
te:
>
> I can only say if these are our prespective about innovation and technolo=
gies, we need to thanks silly people like me moving further than what is al=
ready there and common convention.
>
> This ML is a bit different from what I was expecting, fortunately who und=
erstood the project and gave it a try to test it has been happy with it.
>
> Finally, I am working with FirePHP developer for a FirePHP + Formaldehyde=
natural integration in FirePHP and obviously he liked Formaldehyde, since =
there's nothing like that inside FirePHP - they are simply different, and F=
irePHP does not manage Fatal Errors and other crucial one.
>
> The good part is that at least you know there is that possibility, so the=
day you'll realize that your set_error_handler could be useless in certain=
circumstances you'll probably re-evaluate Formaldehyde ;-)
>
> Thanks to those who tried or tried to understand.
>
> Regards
>
> P.S. I am certified Zend Engineer with 10 years of experience with PHP an=
d dunno how many innovation awards  in phpclasses.org ... so it was no=
t just to waste my time guys, and it is open source, maybe next time I'll k=
eep for me
>
>> From: jasdebord@gmail.com
>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:37:01 +0200
>> To: php-general@lists.php.net
>> Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error De=
bugger
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 8:47 PM, Jim Lucas wrote:
>>
>> > Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
>> >
>> >> something I cannot find in any other library or framework.
>> >>
>> >
>> > This should tell you something then...
>> >
>> > If something like Formandehyde isn't useful, then why is Charles so po=
pular
>> (note: popular from my perspective. I wouldn't dare think that it is pop=
ular
>> with anyone on this list unless they expressly told me so)
>> http://www.charlesproxy.com/ . I can't say anything about the responses
>> Andrea has gotten without sounding rude and likely starting an internet
>> fight, so I won't say anything. Except for this. Tedd, the ajax example =
you
>> linked to does not need any debugging, that is for sure.
>>
>>
>> > --
>> > Jim Lucas
>> >
>> >   "Some men are born to greatness, some achieve greatness,
>> >       and some have greatness thrust upon them."
>> >
>> > Twelfth Night, Act II, Scene V
>> >    by William Shakespeare
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>> >
>> >
>
> ____________________________________________________________ _____
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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP ErrorDebugger

--_c3b43062-de47-4816-86a7-8bfdcac01624_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



> Hello Andrea=2C
>=20
> I am developing with PHP since now 12 years (did a couple stuff in
> Zend Core)=2C and was one of a few guy using and sharing about php when
> it was only an THE Apache mode in the world C++ CGI=2C I am not Zend
> Certified=2C I won't :)=2C anyway those things make me smarter or give m=
e
> the "truth" or the right to be a jerk?=2C

Which part is jerk=2C people starting replying without even looking for 1 m=
inute the project page?

People saying: what's wrong with set_error_handler=2C ignoring it does not =
catch all errors?

Or people saying: if nobody did before it means it should not be done=2C as=
if the programming world and all ideas ended years ago?

I wrote my skills summary just to tell you: hey guys=2C I am not the last a=
rrived here=2C so do not threat me as a noob please=2C OK?

I prefer answers such: I am using this other program=2C application=2C stra=
tegy=2C and I do not need it
rather then people writing unrelated stuff or linking pages that perfectly =
represent the Formaldehyde scenario but they did not even spend a minute to=
read what Formaldehyde is so proud of theirself and their intuition ... ri=
ght? They confirmed they did not read=2C so WTF?

I was expecting somebody that develop massive Ajax application=2C not a lin=
k with 3 pages and zero point about the reply.


> you came here to claim that you were right not to discuss=2C what did
> you expect?=2C if you want to discuss we can=2C but I can tell you I don'=
t
> share your points at all=2C it is not my way to code in scripting
> language. back to silence.
>=20
> Best

I never discuss if I do not know what I am discussing about=2C this is my o=
nly point.

Best

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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Andrea Giammarchi wro=
te:
>
> Hosting support, since it is 100% php with zero dependencies and zero con=
fig effort plus the ability do debug directly via console, unit testing via=
Selenium and/or others, and it does not require manual error catch after t=
he generic problemi, since it will simply be showed on the client side.
>
> On the other hand, xdebug could offer a bit more such memory allocation, =
something could require APD if integrated with Formaldehyde (and it could b=
e interesting, so I am not excluding I won't do it next release)
>
> Best Regards
>
> P.S. for others ... these kind of answers, questions, opinions, that IS w=
hat I was expecting
>
>> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 13:52:11 -0400
>> From: oorza2k5@gmail.com
>> To: paulf@quillandmouse.com
>> CC: php-general@lists.php.net
>> Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error De=
bugger
>>
>> What does this offer that a real debugger, like xdebug, doesn't?
>>
>> --
>> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________________ _____
> Share your memories online with anyone you want.
> http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/prod ucts/photos-s=
hare.aspx?tab=3D1

The thing is, in a properly configured development environment, it's
local, so I can immediately read the logs, or just fire the script up
with xdebug, or the errors will get caught in the editor. And I would
NEVER imagine publicly exposing error messages in a production
environment, so I'm just really confused as to what this offers, other
than some seemingly small benefit in readability, specifically in
firebug (and some other cruft that you really ought to remove, like
the X-Formaldehyde header). And furthermore, this requires code
changes from development -> production, which is a problem I've always
had with FirePHP, too, as that information does not belong in a
production environment. As far as support for shared hosting is
concerned, I've stated on this list several times that my firm opinion
is shared hosting is shooting yourself in the foot (especially as a
good VPS isn't that much more expensive, I'm paying $20/mo for mine).

I think you best summed up why so many on this list think Formaldehyde
isn't a very useful product yourself: the errors are shown on the
client side. In theory, a good development environment already
exposes this information to the developer and things should fail a lot
more gracefully than error output for the user. You said that this
project is something that doesn't already exist, perhaps you should
consider that it doesn't exist because a sane development cycle
precludes Formaldehyde's usefulness?

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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

> Right, errors should never be exposed, and error_reporting should be 0 in=
production but log function and the fact you can move Formaldehyde with th=
e application means it does not require extra effort.

No, display_errors should be turned off (with log_errors turned on)
and error_reporting should be set to whatever standard you're coding
to (preferably, E_ALL | E_STRICT, but a lot of people like to ignore
E_NOTICE's).

> In few words, if in production Formaldehyde constant is false, and it mus=
t be false, nothing will be exposed.

So it's not zero configuration, then?

> You do not need to change your code if you configure properly the defined=
constant while you can use what logs have to offers plus you'll have 1:1 p=
roduction/development application

How do I configure a constant without changing code? And I wasn't
aware that a 1:1 development:production environment was a desirable
thing. Things like xdebug, display_errors, inclued, etc. should be
disabled for production and enabled for development.

> That simplicity is not offered so far by your suggested one as well, and =
please tell me how quick could be an instant PHP error "on screen" during t=
ests or debug  rather than a log analysis but in any case, thanks for =
the feedback.

Run "tail -f /path/to/your/php/error.log" and watch the error logs as
they're appended, if you need instant error notification.

Honestly, I'm sure it sounds like this by now but I'm not trying to
trash your application, but you've not done a very good job selling
it. It looks like you took some keywords ("ajax", "zero
configuration", "portable", etc. etc.) and tried to apply them to your
project, without actually seriously describing what your project is.
As best I can tell, your project doesn't do much other than facilitate
php debugging with Firebug, which is a very niche thing to do and any
development cycle that I've been a part of has had no need to do such
things, so I'm still failing to see Formaldahyde's usefulness. Maybe
I've missed something?

>
> This is the only serious analysis so far, and I am looking forward for ot=
hers, if any.
>
> Best Regards
>
>> The thing is, in a properly configured development environment, it's
>> local, so I can immediately read the logs, or just fire the script up
>> with xdebug, or the errors will get caught in the editor.  And I wo=
uld
>> NEVER imagine publicly exposing error messages in a production
>> environment, so I'm just really confused as to what this offers, other
>> than some seemingly small benefit in readability, specifically in
>> firebug (and some other cruft that you really ought to remove, like
>> the X-Formaldehyde header).  And furthermore, this requires code
>> changes from development -> production, which is a problem I've always
>> had with FirePHP, too, as that information does not belong in a
>> production environment.  As far as support for shared hosting is
>> concerned, I've stated on this list several times that my firm opinion
>> is shared hosting is shooting yourself in the foot (especially as a
>> good VPS isn't that much more expensive, I'm paying $20/mo for mine).
>>
>> I think you best summed up why so many on this list think Formaldehyde
>> isn't a very useful product yourself: the errors are shown on the
>> client side.  In theory, a good development environment already
>> exposes this information to the developer and things should fail a lot
>> more gracefully than error output for the user.  You said that this
>> project is something that doesn't already exist, perhaps you should
>> consider that it doesn't exist because a sane development cycle
>> precludes Formaldehyde's usefulness?
>>
>> --
>> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>
>
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> Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites.
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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

At 10:49 PM +0200 9/13/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
>I was expecting somebody that develop massive Ajax application, not
>a link with 3 pages and zero point about the reply.

You asked if anyone did any ajax? So, I replied and provided you with
an example.

Who cares if my example only has three pages? It could be hundreds --
the technique scales.

In any event, I provided you an example that does not need your
debugger -- it works and works good.

But then you get all testy because I did not read your documentation.
I never said I did AND there was never any requirement for me to do
so before posting. I was simply replying to your question.

But instead of establishing a constructive line of communication, you
start off my criticizing me because I didn't read your documentation.

You ask not to be treated as a noob, but you come in here telling
others where to get off and bragging about your credentials (as if
the rest of us can't do better) -- I'm not sure who you think you
are, but you sure act like an noob.

If nothing else, you have a lot to learn about making a point.

tedd


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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

--00163600d8539f91fd047382f025
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 2:05 AM, tedd wrote:

> At 10:49 PM +0200 9/13/09, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
>
>> I was expecting somebody that develop massive Ajax application, not a link
>> with 3 pages and zero point about the reply.
>>
>
> You asked if anyone did any ajax? So, I replied and provided you with an
> example.
>
> Who cares if my example only has three pages? It could be hundreds -- the
> technique scales.
>
> In all fairness Tedd, your example is a bit of a joke. Send some JSON back
and forth, do some database queries, and use a webservice all at the same
time. Your AJAX calls won't be so simple then.

I think the point of Andrea's project is to make debugging easier. Just like
firebug and Charles do in their own respect. Is it something you can do
without? Yes, especially if you have a great development environment set
up. Is is something that could make inspecting what is getting thrown around
in your AJAX calls and the PHP errors that occur easier? Yes, especially
when sending JSON or remote object calls.

Charles is a great tool when doing Flash and Flex remoting, and AJAX. I have
the impression that Andrea's tool is perhaps doing something similar, but
taking it a step further. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but I think it is
difficult to write off as useless.

In any event, I provided you an example that does not need your debugger --
> it works and works good.
>
> But then you get all testy because I did not read your documentation. I
> never said I did AND there was never any requirement for me to do so before
> posting. I was simply replying to your question.
>
> But instead of establishing a constructive line of communication, you start
> off my criticizing me because I didn't read your documentation.
>
> You ask not to be treated as a noob, but you come in here telling others
> where to get off and bragging about your credentials (as if the rest of us
> can't do better) -- I'm not sure who you think you are, but you sure act
> like an noob.
>
> If nothing else, you have a lot to learn about making a point.
>
>
> tedd
>
>
> --
> -------
> http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
>

--00163600d8539f91fd047382f025--

Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

Hello Andrea,

I did not mean to hurt you, my point was: beeing a Jerk when it's
ending in void conflicts with people, if you don't like their
comments, just don't answer to people.

For my concern, a program cannot be debuged by itself (especially
with a scripting language, we almost did a joke by saying that too),
to debug you need real debug symbols exposed and catchable the only
to have them: you must have a php-zen-debug build, unfortunately it is
not an optional feature to run the interpreter in this mode, you can
only have it at compile time, thing that is impossible to predicate
and have due the different platform support extensions,

secondable, what you are doing is not a debuger, it's a run-time error
tracker, to make a debuger you need to run a session of the
interpreter (exposing real debug symbols) into your own exception
handler program e.g a debuger, debuging php-script using php-script
is a non-sense, beside this it could be done using DTrace
unfortunately not available on every OS.

Best

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Andrea Giammarchi wrote:
>
>> Hello Andrea,
>>
>> I am developing with PHP since now 12 years (did a couple stuff in
>> Zend Core), and was one of a few guy using and sharing about php when
>> it was only an THE Apache mode in the world C++ CGI, I am not Zend
>> Certified, I won't :), anyway those things make me smarter or give me
>> the "truth" or the right to be a jerk?,
>
> Which part is jerk, people starting replying without even looking for 1
> minute the project page?
>
> People saying: what's wrong with set_error_handler, ignoring it does not
> catch all errors?
>
> Or people saying: if nobody did before it means it should not be done, as if
> the programming world and all ideas ended years ago?
>
> I wrote my skills summary just to tell you: hey guys, I am not the last
> arrived here, so do not threat me as a noob please, OK?
>
> I prefer answers such: I am using this other program, application, strategy,
> and I do not need it
> rather then people writing unrelated stuff or linking pages that perfectly
> represent the Formaldehyde scenario but they did not even spend a minute to
> read what Formaldehyde is so proud of theirself and their intuition ...
> right? They confirmed they did not read, so WTF?
>
> I was expecting somebody that develop massive Ajax application, not a link
> with 3 pages and zero point about the reply.
>
>
>> you came here to claim that you were right not to discuss, what did
>> you expect?, if you want to discuss we can, but I can tell you I don't
>> share your points at all, it is not my way to code in scripting
>> language. back to silence.
>>
>> Best
>
> I never discuss if I do not know what I am discussing about, this is my only
> point.
>
> Best
>
> ________________________________
> See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family

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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP Error Debugger

Noe that the debuger chapter is closed, and you actually did create a
error tracker helper and try to return them client side, I can
understand that you are frustrated by the poor php layer and support
regarding exception handling, but on this point as a lot of people
answer you we are doing that server side, if you are developing in a
MVC environment you don't need the view to debug your model.

Best,

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:13 AM, mm w <0xcafefeed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Andrea,
>
> I did not mean to hurt you, my point was: beeing a Jerk when it's
> ending in void conflicts with people, if you don't like their
> comments, just don't answer to people.
>
> For my concern, a program cannot be debuged by itself (especially
> with a scripting language, we almost did a joke by saying that too),
> to debug you need real debug symbols exposed and catchable  the only
> to have them: you must have a php-zen-debug build, unfortunately it is
> not an optional feature to run the interpreter in this mode, you can
> only have it  at compile time, thing that is impossible to predicate
> and have due the different platform support extensions,
>
> secondable, what you are doing is not a debuger, it's a run-time error
> tracker, to make a debuger you need to run a session of the
> interpreter (exposing real debug symbols) into your own exception
> handler program e.g a debuger, debuging php-script using php-script
> is a non-sense, beside this it could be done using DTrace
> unfortunately not available on every OS.
>
> Best
>
> On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Andrea Giammarchi w=
rote:
>>
>>> Hello Andrea,
>>>
>>> I am developing with PHP since now 12 years (did a couple stuff in
>>> Zend Core), and was one of a few guy using and sharing about php when
>>> it was only an THE Apache mode in the world C++ CGI, I am not Zend
>>> Certified, I won't :), anyway those things make me smarter or give me
>>> the "truth" or the right to be a jerk?,
>>
>> Which part is jerk, people starting replying without even looking for 1
>> minute the project page?
>>
>> People saying: what's wrong with set_error_handler, ignoring it does not
>> catch all errors?
>>
>> Or people saying: if nobody did before it means it should not be done, a=
s if
>> the programming world and all ideas ended years ago?
>>
>> I wrote my skills summary just to tell you: hey guys, I am not the last
>> arrived here, so do not threat me as a noob please, OK?
>>
>> I prefer answers such: I am using this other program, application, strat=
egy,
>> and I do not need it
>> rather then people writing unrelated stuff or linking pages that perfect=
ly
>> represent the Formaldehyde scenario but they did not even spend a minute=
to
>> read what Formaldehyde is so proud of theirself and their intuition ...
>> right? They confirmed they did not read, so WTF?
>>
>> I was expecting somebody that develop massive Ajax application, not a li=
nk
>> with 3 pages and zero point about the reply.
>>
>>
>>> you came here to claim that you were right not to discuss, what did
>>> you expect?, if you want to discuss we can, but I can tell you I don't
>>> share your points at all, it is not my way to code in scripting
>>> language. back to silence.
>>>
>>> Best
>>
>> I never discuss if I do not know what I am discussing about, this is my =
only
>> point.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> ________________________________
>> See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family
>

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Re: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP ErrorDebugger

At 7:28 AM +0200 9/14/09, J DeBord wrote:
> In all fairness Tedd, your example is a bit of a joke. Send some JSON back
>and forth, do some database queries, and use a webservice all at the same
>time. Your AJAX calls won't be so simple then.

Okay, so my work is a joke. Been there, done that before and will do it again.

However, I offered it as an example as someone on this list using
ajax, which if you will read the thread, you will see that he asked
the question if anyone used ajax. I replied with my joke.

Sorry that my example doesn't live up to your expectations. But then
again, you really don't know what my example does, do you? Sure, you
see the ajax side of it, but that's really all you see, isn't that
right? Maybe it has some other redeeming properties that you have
failed to consider?

While it's a joke, in all fairness, it does work.

-snip-

>Charles is a great tool when doing Flash and Flex remoting, and AJAX. I have
>the impression that Andrea's tool is perhaps doing something similar, but
>taking it a step further. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but I think it is
>difficult to write off as useless.

If you really want to be fair about this -- how about you show me
where me where I said his debugger was useless? You claimed I did, so
in all fairness you should be able to prove it. In fact, how about
you showing me anywhere where I said anything negative about his
debugger? That would be fair, right?

Also while you are at it, how about reading the entire thread and see
how I came involved in the first place. After all, we all want to be
be "fair" about this, right?

In all fairness, I think if someone followed this thread and saw the
sequence of events, a fair minded individual might come away with a
different perspective and claims than you did.

Sometimes I wonder why I try to help people in the first place.

tedd

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RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP ErrorDebugger

--_7a7f3df4-8de1-46e8-95c3-cef3732957a1_
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>
> While it's a joke=2C in all fairness=2C it does work.

only because you debugged before server side responses=2C and now=2C as I h=
ave said=2C you have an alternative to speed up that process.

Finally=2C Formaldehyde JS had a typo so only today I realized it and I upl=
oaded the version 1.01 of Formaldehyde for JavaScript so right now and only=
if you have 5 minutes=2C you can properly test the project having expected=
results (before was the same except the typo=2C now it should be OK)

____________________________________________________________ _____
Drag n=92 drop=97Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live=99 Photos.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos .aspx=

--_7a7f3df4-8de1-46e8-95c3-cef3732957a1_--

RE: RE: [Formaldehyde] The Most Basic Ajax - PHP ErrorDebugger

--_2561871b-50aa-4a82-b0af-9539ca654f97_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




>
> While it's a joke=2C in all fairness=2C it does work.

only because you debugged before server side responses=2C and now=2C as I h=
ave said=2C you have an alternative to speed up that process.

Finally=2C Formaldehyde JS had a typo so only today I realized it and I upl=
oaded the version 1.01 of Formaldehyde for JavaScript so right now and only=
if you have 5 minutes=2C you can properly test the project having expected=
results (before was the same except the typo=2C now it should be OK)

____________________________________________________________ _____
With Windows Live=2C you can organize=2C edit=2C and share your photos.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/prod ucts/photo-gall=
ery-edit.aspx=

--_2561871b-50aa-4a82-b0af-9539ca654f97_--