Help saving MySQL

Subject: Help saving MySQL from Oracle!

I, Michael "Monty" Widenius, the creator of MySQL, is asking you
urgently to help save MySQL from Oracle's clutches. Without your
immediate help Oracle might get to own MySQL any day now. By writing
to the European Commission (EC) you can support this cause and make
things much harder for Oracle.

What this text is about:
- Summary of what is happening
- What Oracle has not promised
- Oracles past behavior with Open Source
- Help spread this information (Jump to 'What I want to ask you to do')
- Example of email to send to the commission (Jump to 'send this to:')

I have spent the last 27 years creating and working on MySQL and I
hope, together with my team of MySQL core developers, to work on
it for many more years.

Oracle is trying to buy Sun, and since Sun bought MySQL last year,
Oracle would then own MySQL. With your support, there is a good chance
that the EC (from which Oracle needs approval) could prevent this from
happening. Without your support, it might not. The EC is our last big
hope now because the US government approved the deal while Europe is
still worried about the effects.

Instead of just working out this with the EC and agree on appropriate
remedies to correct the situation, Oracle has instead contacted
hundreds of their big customers and asked them to write to the EC and
require unconditional acceptance of the deal. According what I been
told, Oracle has promised to the customers, among other things, that
"they will put more money into MySQL development than what Sun did"
and that "if they would ever abandon MYSQL, a fork will appear and
take care of things".

However just putting money into development is not proof that anything
useful will ever be delivered or that MySQL will continue to be a
competitive force in the market as it's now.

As I already blogged about before,
http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/10/importance-of-license -model-of-mysql-or.html,
a fork is not enough to keep MySQL alive for all future, if Oracle, as
the copyright holder of MySQL, would at any point decide that they should
kill MySQL or make parts of MySQL closed source.

Oracle claims that it would take good care of MySQL but let's face the
facts: Unlike ten years ago, when MySQL was mostly just used for the web,
it has become very functional, scalable and credible. Now it's used in
many of the world's largest companies and they use it for an increasing
number of purposes. This not only scares but actually hurts Oracle every
day. Oracle salespeople have to lower prices all the time to compete with
MySQL when companies start new projects. Some companies even migrate
existing projects from Oracle to MySQL to save money. Of course Oracle has
a lot more features, but MySQL can already do a lot of things for which
Oracle is often used and helps people save a lot of money. Over time MySQL
can do to Oracle what the originally belittled Linux did to commercial
Unix (roughly speaking).

So I just don't buy it that Oracle will be a good home for MySQL. A
weak MySQL is worth about one billion dollars per year to Oracle,
maybe more. A strong MySQL could never generate enough income for
Oracle that they would want to cannibalize their real cash cow. I
don't think any company has ever done anything like that. That's why
the EC is skeptical and formalized its objections about a month ago.

Richard Stallman agrees that it's very important which company owns MySQL,
that Oracle should not be allowed to buy it and that it can't just be
taken care of by a community of volunteers: http://keionline.org/ec-mysql

Oracle has NOT promised (as far as I know and certainly not in a legally
binding manner) that:

- They keep (all of) MySQL under an open source license
- Not add closed source parts, modules or required tools.
- To not rise MySQL license or MySQL support prices
- To release new MySQL versions in a regular and timely manner.
- To continue with dual licensing and always provide affordable commercial
licenses to MySQL to those who needs them (to storage vendors
and application vendors) or provide MySQL under a more permissive license
- To develop MySQL as an Open Source project
- To actively work with the community
- Apply submitted patches in a timely manner
- Not discriminate patches that makes MySQL compete more with Oracles
other products.
- To ensure that MySQL is improved also in manners that make it compete
even more with Oracles' main offering.

From looking at how Oracle handled the InnoDB acquisition, I don't
have high hopes that Oracle will do the above right if not required to
do so:

For InnoDB:
- Bug fixes where done (but this was done under a contractual obligation)
- New features, like compression that was announced before acquisition, took
3 years to implement
- No time tables or insight into development
- The community where not allowed to participate in development
- Patches from users (like Google) that would have increased performance was
not implemented/released until after Oracle announced it was acquiring Sun.
- Oracle started working on InnoDB+, a better 'closed source' version of InnoDB
- In the end Sun had to fork InnoDB, just to be able to improve performance.

It's true that development did continue, but this was more to be able
to continue using InnoDB as a pressure on MySQL Ab.

Note that Oracle's development on the Linux kernel is not comparable
with MySQL, because:
- Oracle is using Linux as the main platform for their primary database
product (and thus a better Linux makes Oracles platform better)
- The GPL code in the kernel is not affecting what is running on top on it
(because of an exception in Linux).

Because we don't have access to a database of MySQL customers and
users the only way we can get the word out is to use the MySQL and
Open Source community. I would never have resorted to this if Oracle
would not have broken the well established rules in anticompetitive
merger cases and try to influence the EC by actively mobilising the
customers.

This is very critical to this AS SOON AS POSSIBLE as EC, depending on
what Oracle is doing, needs to make a decision either on Monday
(2009-12-14) or within two weeks. Becasue of the strict deadline,
every email counts!

What I want to ask you to do (until 2009-12-19):

- Forward this email to everyone that you know is using MySQL or Open
Source/free software and to all email list where you know there are
people present that use or care about MySQL and open source (please check
first that this email hasn't been sent there before)
- Alternatively send emails with information about this and tell them to read http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l
- Add links on your web site to http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l with the text "We are using MySQL, help save it", for the
duration of the next two week.
- Blog about this (feel free to include this text or just link to my blog)
- Call by phone (don't contact by email, this is urgent) your boss or VP
and ask him to read this email and send a letter to the EC commission ASAP!
- If you don't have anyone to contact above, send an email to the EC!

As we want the EC to get a correct picture of the situation, we want
you to first fill in the upper part and then choose one of the
proposed texts belove that best matches your view of the
situation. Feel free to supply your own text and additional
information if you think this will help the EC to reach a better
understanding of how MySQL is used.

Send this to: comp-merger-registry@ec.europa.eu

If you have extra time to help, fill in the following, if not, just skip
to the main text.

Name:
Title:
Company:
Size of company:
How many MySQL installations:
Total data stored in MySQL (megabyte):
For what type of applications is MySQL used:
Should this email be kept confidential by EC: Yes/No

Copy or use one of the below texts as a base for your answer:

a)
I don't trust that Oracle will take good care of MySQL and MySQL
should be divested to another company or foundation that have
everything to gain by developing and promoting MySQL. One should also
in the future be able to combine MySQL with closed source application
(either by exceptions, a more permissive license or be able to dual
license MySQL under favourable terms)

b)

I think that Oracle could be a good steward of MySQL, but I would need
EC to have legally binding guarantees from Oracle that:
- All of MySQL will continue to be fully Open Source/free software in
the future (no closed source modules)
- That development will be done in community friendly way.
- The manual should be released under a permissive license (so that one
can fork it, the same way one can fork the server)
- That MySQL should be released under a more permissive license to
ensure that forks can truly compete with Oracle if Oracle is not a
good steward after all.
Alternatively:
- One should be able to always buy low priced commercial licenses for MySQL.

There should also be mechanism so that if Oracle is not doing
what is expected of it, forks should be able to compete with Oracle

c)
I trust Oracle and I suggest that EC will approve the deal unconditionally.


--------------------

Let us prove to Oracle and EC that the Open Source community is a true
force and we take good care of our citizens and we prefer to work with
companies that does the same!

The future of MySQL is in your hands!

Thanks for the help!
Michael Widenius
Creator of MySQL

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Re: Help saving MySQL

I hope the only reason this thread is so quiet is because we are all
busy notifying our friends. There are a hell of a lot more users
invested in MySQL than those who read this list. Spread the word!

Monty is not asking us to help him: he is asking you to help
yourselves. MySQL has never been more important than it is today!

- michael dykman


On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Michael Widenius
wrote:
>
> Subject: Help saving MySQL from Oracle!
>
> I, Michael "Monty" Widenius, the creator of MySQL, is asking you
> urgently to help save MySQL from Oracle's clutches. =A0Without your
> immediate help Oracle might get to own MySQL any day now. By writing
> to the European Commission (EC) you can support this cause and make
> things much harder for Oracle.
>
> What this text is about:
> - Summary of what is happening
> - What Oracle has not promised
> - Oracles past behavior with Open Source
> - Help spread this information (Jump to 'What I want to ask you to do')
> - Example of email to send to the commission (Jump to 'send this to:')
>
> I have spent the last 27 years creating and working on MySQL and I
> hope, together with my team of MySQL core developers, to work on
> it for many more years.
>
> Oracle is trying to buy Sun, and since Sun bought MySQL last year,
> Oracle would then own MySQL. With your support, there is a good chance
> that the EC (from which Oracle needs approval) could prevent this from
> happening. Without your support, it might not. The EC is our last big
> hope now because the US government approved the deal while Europe is
> still worried about the effects.
>
> Instead of just working out this with the EC and agree on appropriate
> remedies to correct the situation, Oracle has instead contacted
> hundreds of their big customers and asked them to write to the EC and
> require unconditional acceptance of the deal. According what I been
> told, Oracle has promised to the customers, among other things, that
> "they will put more money into MySQL development than what Sun did"
> and that "if they would ever abandon MYSQL, a fork will appear and
> take care of things".
>
> However just putting money into development is not proof that anything
> useful will ever be delivered or that MySQL will continue to be a
> competitive force in the market as it's now.
>
> As I already blogged about before,
> http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/10/importance-of-license -model-of-mys=
ql-or.html,
> a fork is not enough to keep MySQL alive for all future, if Oracle, as
> the copyright holder of MySQL, would at any point decide that they should
> kill MySQL or make parts of MySQL closed source.
>
> Oracle claims that it would take good care of MySQL but let's face the
> facts: Unlike ten years ago, when MySQL was mostly just used for the web,
> it has become very functional, scalable and credible. Now it's used in
> many of the world's largest companies and they use it for an increasing
> number of purposes. This not only scares but actually hurts Oracle every
> day. Oracle salespeople have to lower prices all the time to compete with
> MySQL when companies start new projects. Some companies even migrate
> existing projects from Oracle to MySQL to save money. Of course Oracle ha=
s
> a lot more features, but MySQL can already do a lot of things for which
> Oracle is often used and helps people save a lot of money. Over time MySQ=
L
> can do to Oracle what the originally belittled Linux did to commercial
> Unix (roughly speaking).
>
> So I just don't buy it that Oracle will be a good home for MySQL. A
> weak MySQL is worth about one billion dollars per year to Oracle,
> maybe more. A strong MySQL could never generate enough income for
> Oracle that they would want to cannibalize their real cash cow. I
> don't think any company has ever done anything like that. That's why
> the EC is skeptical and formalized its objections about a month ago.
>
> Richard Stallman agrees that it's very important which company owns MySQL=
,
> that Oracle should not be allowed to buy it and that it can't just be
> taken care of by a community of volunteers: http://keionline.org/ec-mysql
>
> Oracle has NOT promised (as far as I know and certainly not in a legally
> binding manner) that:
>
> - They keep (all of) MySQL under an open source license
> - Not add closed source parts, modules or required tools.
> - To not rise MySQL license or MySQL support prices
> - To release new MySQL versions in a regular and timely manner.
> - To continue with dual licensing and always provide affordable commercia=
l
> =A0licenses to MySQL to those who needs them (to storage vendors
> =A0and application vendors) or provide MySQL under a more permissive lice=
nse
> - To develop MySQL as an Open Source project
> =A0- To actively work with the community
> =A0- Apply submitted patches in a timely manner
> =A0- Not discriminate patches that makes MySQL compete more with Oracles
> =A0 =A0other products.
> - To ensure that MySQL is improved also in manners that make it compete
> =A0even more with Oracles' main offering.
>
> From looking at how Oracle handled the InnoDB acquisition, I don't
> have high hopes that Oracle will do the above right if not required to
> do so:
>
> For InnoDB:
> - Bug fixes where done (but this was done under a contractual obligation)
> - New features, like compression that was announced before acquisition, t=
ook
> =A0 3 years to implement
> - No time tables or insight into development
> - The community where not allowed to participate in development
> - Patches from users (like Google) that would have increased performance =
was
> =A0not implemented/released until after Oracle announced it was acquiring=
Sun.
> - Oracle started working on InnoDB+, a better 'closed source' version of =
InnoDB
> - In the end Sun had to fork InnoDB, just to be able to improve performan=
ce.
>
> It's true that development did continue, but this was more to be able
> to continue using InnoDB as a pressure on MySQL Ab.
>
> Note that Oracle's development on the Linux kernel is not comparable
> with MySQL, because:
> - Oracle is using Linux as the main platform for their primary database
> =A0product (and thus a better Linux makes Oracles platform better)
> - The GPL code in the kernel is not affecting what is running on top on i=
t
> =A0(because of an exception in Linux).
>
> Because we don't have access to a database of MySQL customers and
> users the only way we can get the word out is to use the MySQL and
> Open Source community. I would never have resorted to this if Oracle
> would not have broken the well established rules in anticompetitive
> merger cases and try to influence the EC by actively mobilising the
> customers.
>
> This is very critical to this AS SOON AS POSSIBLE as EC, depending on
> what Oracle is doing, needs to make a decision either on Monday
> (2009-12-14) or within two weeks. Becasue of the strict deadline,
> every email counts!
>
> What I want to ask you to do (until 2009-12-19):
>
> - Forward this email to everyone that you know is using MySQL or Open
> =A0Source/free software and to all email list where you know there are
> =A0people present that use or care about MySQL and open source (please ch=
eck
> =A0first that this email hasn't been sent there before)
> - Alternatively send emails with information about this and tell them to =
read http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l
> - Add links on your web site to http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/he=
lp-saving-mysql.html with the text "We are using MySQL, help save it", for =
the
> =A0duration of the next two week.
> - Blog about this (feel free to include this text or just link to my blog=
)
> - Call by phone (don't contact by email, this is urgent) your boss or VP
> =A0and ask him to read this email and send a letter to the EC commission =
ASAP!
> - If you don't have anyone to contact above, send an email to the EC!
>
> As we want the EC to get a correct picture of the situation, we want
> you to first fill in the upper part and then choose one of the
> proposed texts belove that best matches your view of the
> situation. Feel free to supply your own text and additional
> information if you think this will help the EC to reach a better
> understanding of how MySQL is used.
>
> Send this to: comp-merger-registry@ec.europa.eu
>
> If you have extra time to help, fill in the following, if not, just skip
> to the main text.
>
> Name:
> Title:
> Company:
> Size of company:
> How many MySQL installations:
> Total data stored in MySQL (megabyte):
> For what type of applications is MySQL used:
> Should this email be kept confidential by EC: =A0Yes/No
>
> Copy or use one of the below texts as a base for your answer:
>
> a)
> I don't trust that Oracle will take good care of MySQL and MySQL
> should be divested to another company or foundation that have
> everything to gain by developing and promoting MySQL. One should also
> in the future be able to combine MySQL with closed source application
> (either by exceptions, a more permissive license or be able to dual
> license MySQL under favourable terms)
>
> b)
>
> I think that Oracle could be a good steward of MySQL, but I would need
> EC to have legally binding guarantees from Oracle that:
> - All of MySQL will continue to be fully Open Source/free software in
> =A0the future (no closed source modules)
> - That development will be done in community friendly way.
> - The manual should be released under a permissive license (so that one
> =A0can fork it, the same way one can fork the server)
> - That MySQL should be released under a more permissive license to
> =A0ensure that forks can truly compete with Oracle if Oracle is not a
> =A0good steward after all.
> Alternatively:
> - One should be able to always buy low priced commercial licenses for MyS=
QL.
>
> There should also be mechanism so that if Oracle is not doing
> what is expected of it, forks should be able to compete with Oracle
>
> c)
> I trust Oracle and I suggest that EC will approve the deal unconditionall=
y.
>
>
> --------------------
>
> Let us prove to Oracle and EC that the Open Source community is a true
> force and we take good care of our citizens and we prefer to work with
> companies that does the same!
>
> The future of MySQL is in your hands!
>
> Thanks for the help!
> Michael Widenius
> Creator of MySQL
>
> --
> MySQL General Mailing List
> For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql
> To unsubscribe: =A0 =A0http://lists.mysql.com/mysql?unsub=3Dmdykman@gmail=
..com
>
>



--=20
- michael dykman
- mdykman@gmail.com

"May you live every day of your life."
Jonathan Swift

Larry's First Law of Language Redesign: Everyone wants the colon.

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Re: Help saving MySQL

On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Michael Dykman wrote:
> I hope the only reason this thread =A0is so quiet is because we are all
> busy notifying our friends. =A0There are a hell of a lot more users
> invested in MySQL than those who read this list. =A0Spread the word!
>

Let's stand up today to face the evil!

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Re: Help saving MySQL

> Ryan Chan :
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Michael Dykman
> wrote:
> > I hope the only reason this thread  is so quiet is because we are
> > all busy notifying our friends.  There are a hell of a lot more
> > users invested in MySQL than those who read this list.  Spread the
> > word!
> >
>=20
> Let's stand up today to face the evil!
>=20

Could people translate that message to the maximum available langages?

--=20
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Administration Systeme, Recherche & Developpement
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Re: Help saving MySQL

hmmmm... All this is what might happen...that true...But yet I do not
see anyone willing to put up anything to support mysql... you don't like
it... put up a billion dollars an take control or shut the heck up!

Doug

Ryan Chan wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Michael Dykman wrote:
>
>> I hope the only reason this thread is so quiet is because we are all
>> busy notifying our friends. There are a hell of a lot more users
>> invested in MySQL than those who read this list. Spread the word!
>>
>>
> Let's stand up today to face the evil!
>
> --
> MySQL General Mailing List
> For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql
> To unsubscribe: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql?unsub=douglas.nelson@sun.com
>
>

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RE: Help saving MySQL

Doug:

> I do not
> see anyone willing to put up anything to support mysql... you
> don't like
> it... put up a billion dollars an take control or shut the heck up!

Assuming MySQL as it stands today is 100% open source,
I think an easier path is to create a new project from
the currently existing sources. Call it something else,
dbXYZ for instance. Then, Oracle can do anything it
wants to MySQL.

I am pretty sure if Michael leads the project, the open
source community will follow.

Can that be done or did I miss something?
If that is the case, what can Oracle really do
to hurt MySQL?

I am not against what Micheal is proposing. I already
sent my letter to the EC. I am asking this for my
own edification.

Thanks,
Neil

--
Neil Aggarwal, (281)846-8957, http://UnmeteredVPS.net
Host your MySQL database on a CentOS VPS for $25/mo
Unmetered bandwidth = no overage charges, 7 day free trial


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Re: Help saving MySQL

I am astonished that this attitude could exist in the open source
world. MySQL has *always* been open source, since the early days when
it was a handful of us lurking on Monty's mailing list waiting
breathlessly for the next feature to be released so we could release
the projects we had built against them.

I was in the Msql camp when the author of that pioneering product
(Bambi?) retired the project and Monty graciously agreed to absorb the
tool set into MySql. This involved the stewardship of a few thousand
lines of C.. but this decision allowed 10's of thousands of web
developers to keep building the 5 and dime sites that evolved the
modern web.

The whole bloody point of open source software, and I do mean the
whole bloody point is that *everybody* has access to the core software
they need with no cost beyond that of making the effort to learn to
use it. Everyone can contribute and those contributions are evaluated
on technical considerations alone. It is true democracy. It is a
technological movement which has done as much to put real power into
the hands of everyday people as 200 years of social movements have
accomplished.

Are we such sheep that we leave this in the hands of the highest bidder?

- michael dykman

On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Neil Aggarwal w=
rote:
> Doug:
>
>> I do not
>> see anyone willing to put up anything to support mysql... you
>> don't like
>> it... put up a billion dollars an take control or shut the heck up!
>
> Assuming MySQL as it stands today is 100% open source,
> I think an easier path is to create a new project from
> the currently existing sources. =A0Call it something else,
> dbXYZ for instance. =A0Then, Oracle can do anything it
> wants to MySQL.
>
> I am pretty sure if Michael leads the project, the open
> source community will follow.
>
> Can that be done or did I miss something?
> If that is the case, what can Oracle really do
> to hurt MySQL?
>
> I am not against what Micheal is proposing. =A0I already
> sent my letter to the EC. =A0I am asking this for my
> own edification.
>
> Thanks,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Neil
>
> --
> Neil Aggarwal, (281)846-8957, http://UnmeteredVPS.net
> Host your MySQL database on a CentOS VPS for $25/mo
> Unmetered bandwidth =3D no overage charges, 7 day free trial
>
>
> --
> MySQL General Mailing List
> For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql
> To unsubscribe: =A0 =A0http://lists.mysql.com/mysql?unsub=3Dmdykman@gmail=
..com
>
>



--=20
- michael dykman
- mdykman@gmail.com

"May you live every day of your life."
Jonathan Swift

Larry's First Law of Language Redesign: Everyone wants the colon.

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Re: Help saving MySQL

> Michael Dykman :
> Are we such sheep that we leave this in the hands of the highest
> bidder?

I dont understand: Dont'you like the idea of forking?
Why exactly?

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Re: Help saving MySQL

"Due to selling MySQL to Sun, Widenius earned about 16.6 million € in
capital gains in 2008 (16.8
million € total income), making the top 10 of highest earners in Finland
that year."
[wikipedia]

Cheers

Claudio Nanni



Michael Widenius wrote:
> Subject: Help saving MySQL from Oracle!
>
> I, Michael "Monty" Widenius, the creator of MySQL, is asking you
> urgently to help save MySQL from Oracle's clutches. Without your
> immediate help Oracle might get to own MySQL any day now. By writing
> to the European Commission (EC) you can support this cause and make
> things much harder for Oracle.
>
> What this text is about:
> - Summary of what is happening
> - What Oracle has not promised
> - Oracles past behavior with Open Source
> - Help spread this information (Jump to 'What I want to ask you to do')
> - Example of email to send to the commission (Jump to 'send this to:')
>
> I have spent the last 27 years creating and working on MySQL and I
> hope, together with my team of MySQL core developers, to work on
> it for many more years.
>
> Oracle is trying to buy Sun, and since Sun bought MySQL last year,
> Oracle would then own MySQL. With your support, there is a good chance
> that the EC (from which Oracle needs approval) could prevent this from
> happening. Without your support, it might not. The EC is our last big
> hope now because the US government approved the deal while Europe is
> still worried about the effects.
>
> Instead of just working out this with the EC and agree on appropriate
> remedies to correct the situation, Oracle has instead contacted
> hundreds of their big customers and asked them to write to the EC and
> require unconditional acceptance of the deal. According what I been
> told, Oracle has promised to the customers, among other things, that
> "they will put more money into MySQL development than what Sun did"
> and that "if they would ever abandon MYSQL, a fork will appear and
> take care of things".
>
> However just putting money into development is not proof that anything
> useful will ever be delivered or that MySQL will continue to be a
> competitive force in the market as it's now.
>
> As I already blogged about before,
> http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/10/importance-of-license -model-of-mysql-or.html,
> a fork is not enough to keep MySQL alive for all future, if Oracle, as
> the copyright holder of MySQL, would at any point decide that they should
> kill MySQL or make parts of MySQL closed source.
>
> Oracle claims that it would take good care of MySQL but let's face the
> facts: Unlike ten years ago, when MySQL was mostly just used for the web,
> it has become very functional, scalable and credible. Now it's used in
> many of the world's largest companies and they use it for an increasing
> number of purposes. This not only scares but actually hurts Oracle every
> day. Oracle salespeople have to lower prices all the time to compete with
> MySQL when companies start new projects. Some companies even migrate
> existing projects from Oracle to MySQL to save money. Of course Oracle has
> a lot more features, but MySQL can already do a lot of things for which
> Oracle is often used and helps people save a lot of money. Over time MySQL
> can do to Oracle what the originally belittled Linux did to commercial
> Unix (roughly speaking).
>
> So I just don't buy it that Oracle will be a good home for MySQL. A
> weak MySQL is worth about one billion dollars per year to Oracle,
> maybe more. A strong MySQL could never generate enough income for
> Oracle that they would want to cannibalize their real cash cow. I
> don't think any company has ever done anything like that. That's why
> the EC is skeptical and formalized its objections about a month ago.
>
> Richard Stallman agrees that it's very important which company owns MySQL,
> that Oracle should not be allowed to buy it and that it can't just be
> taken care of by a community of volunteers: http://keionline.org/ec-mysql
>
> Oracle has NOT promised (as far as I know and certainly not in a legally
> binding manner) that:
>
> - They keep (all of) MySQL under an open source license
> - Not add closed source parts, modules or required tools.
> - To not rise MySQL license or MySQL support prices
> - To release new MySQL versions in a regular and timely manner.
> - To continue with dual licensing and always provide affordable commercial
> licenses to MySQL to those who needs them (to storage vendors
> and application vendors) or provide MySQL under a more permissive license
> - To develop MySQL as an Open Source project
> - To actively work with the community
> - Apply submitted patches in a timely manner
> - Not discriminate patches that makes MySQL compete more with Oracles
> other products.
> - To ensure that MySQL is improved also in manners that make it compete
> even more with Oracles' main offering.
>
> >From looking at how Oracle handled the InnoDB acquisition, I don't
> have high hopes that Oracle will do the above right if not required to
> do so:
>
> For InnoDB:
> - Bug fixes where done (but this was done under a contractual obligation)
> - New features, like compression that was announced before acquisition, took
> 3 years to implement
> - No time tables or insight into development
> - The community where not allowed to participate in development
> - Patches from users (like Google) that would have increased performance was
> not implemented/released until after Oracle announced it was acquiring Sun.
> - Oracle started working on InnoDB+, a better 'closed source' version of InnoDB
> - In the end Sun had to fork InnoDB, just to be able to improve performance.
>
> It's true that development did continue, but this was more to be able
> to continue using InnoDB as a pressure on MySQL Ab.
>
> Note that Oracle's development on the Linux kernel is not comparable
> with MySQL, because:
> - Oracle is using Linux as the main platform for their primary database
> product (and thus a better Linux makes Oracles platform better)
> - The GPL code in the kernel is not affecting what is running on top on it
> (because of an exception in Linux).
>
> Because we don't have access to a database of MySQL customers and
> users the only way we can get the word out is to use the MySQL and
> Open Source community. I would never have resorted to this if Oracle
> would not have broken the well established rules in anticompetitive
> merger cases and try to influence the EC by actively mobilising the
> customers.
>
> This is very critical to this AS SOON AS POSSIBLE as EC, depending on
> what Oracle is doing, needs to make a decision either on Monday
> (2009-12-14) or within two weeks. Becasue of the strict deadline,
> every email counts!
>
> What I want to ask you to do (until 2009-12-19):
>
> - Forward this email to everyone that you know is using MySQL or Open
> Source/free software and to all email list where you know there are
> people present that use or care about MySQL and open source (please check
> first that this email hasn't been sent there before)
> - Alternatively send emails with information about this and tell them to read http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l
> - Add links on your web site to http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l with the text "We are using MySQL, help save it", for the
> duration of the next two week.
> - Blog about this (feel free to include this text or just link to my blog)
> - Call by phone (don't contact by email, this is urgent) your boss or VP
> and ask him to read this email and send a letter to the EC commission ASAP!
> - If you don't have anyone to contact above, send an email to the EC!
>
> As we want the EC to get a correct picture of the situation, we want
> you to first fill in the upper part and then choose one of the
> proposed texts belove that best matches your view of the
> situation. Feel free to supply your own text and additional
> information if you think this will help the EC to reach a better
> understanding of how MySQL is used.
>
> Send this to: comp-merger-registry@ec.europa.eu
>
> If you have extra time to help, fill in the following, if not, just skip
> to the main text.
>
> Name:
> Title:
> Company:
> Size of company:
> How many MySQL installations:
> Total data stored in MySQL (megabyte):
> For what type of applications is MySQL used:
> Should this email be kept confidential by EC: Yes/No
>
> Copy or use one of the below texts as a base for your answer:
>
> a)
> I don't trust that Oracle will take good care of MySQL and MySQL
> should be divested to another company or foundation that have
> everything to gain by developing and promoting MySQL. One should also
> in the future be able to combine MySQL with closed source application
> (either by exceptions, a more permissive license or be able to dual
> license MySQL under favourable terms)
>
> b)
>
> I think that Oracle could be a good steward of MySQL, but I would need
> EC to have legally binding guarantees from Oracle that:
> - All of MySQL will continue to be fully Open Source/free software in
> the future (no closed source modules)
> - That development will be done in community friendly way.
> - The manual should be released under a permissive license (so that one
> can fork it, the same way one can fork the server)
> - That MySQL should be released under a more permissive license to
> ensure that forks can truly compete with Oracle if Oracle is not a
> good steward after all.
> Alternatively:
> - One should be able to always buy low priced commercial licenses for MySQL.
>
> There should also be mechanism so that if Oracle is not doing
> what is expected of it, forks should be able to compete with Oracle
>
> c)
> I trust Oracle and I suggest that EC will approve the deal unconditionally.
>
>
> --------------------
>
> Let us prove to Oracle and EC that the Open Source community is a true
> force and we take good care of our citizens and we prefer to work with
> companies that does the same!
>
> The future of MySQL is in your hands!
>
> Thanks for the help!
> Michael Widenius
> Creator of MySQL
>
>


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Re: Help saving MySQL

Claudio Nanni wrote:
> "Due to selling MySQL to Sun, Widenius earned about 16.6 million € in
(...)

I fail to see the relevance of this quote for this thread...

Regards,

Jigal.

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Re: Help saving MySQL

If he really cared about MySQL he would have not sold it or prevent from
selling it to Sun.

Cheers

Claudio

Jigal van Hemert wrote:
> Claudio Nanni wrote:
>> "Due to selling MySQL to Sun, Widenius earned about 16.6 million € in
> (...)
>
> I fail to see the relevance of this quote for this thread...
>
> Regards,
>
> Jigal.
>


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RE: Help saving MySQL

> "Due to selling MySQL to Sun, Widenius earned about 16.6 million =
₠in=20
> capital gains in=20

So, he got paid for his contribution to the world.
Is that so bad? MySQL has allowed people to make
much more money than that. It is a small amount of
the worldwide earnings from on the product he created.

Neil

--
Neil Aggarwal, (281)846-8957, http://UnmeteredVPS.net
Host your MySQL database on a CentOS VPS for $25/mo
Unmetered bandwidth =3D no overage charges, 7 day free trial


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Re: Help saving MySQL

Totally agree.
But in the moment you sell something you lose control on it, and one of
the more or less foreseeable risks is exactly what is happening,
and worst nightmare become truth.

Cheers

Claudio


Neil Aggarwal wrote:
>> "Due to selling MySQL to Sun, Widenius earned about 16.6 million € in
>> capital gains in
>>
>
> So, he got paid for his contribution to the world.
> Is that so bad? MySQL has allowed people to make
> much more money than that. It is a small amount of
> the worldwide earnings from on the product he created.
>
> Neil
>
> --
> Neil Aggarwal, (281)846-8957, http://UnmeteredVPS.net
> Host your MySQL database on a CentOS VPS for $25/mo
> Unmetered bandwidth = no overage charges, 7 day free trial
>
>
>


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Re: Help saving MySQL

Claudio Nanni wrote:
> If he really cared about MySQL he would have not sold it or prevent from
> selling it to Sun.

Initially her was convinced that MySQL as a division of Sun would really
benefit the future of MySQL [1]. Obviously his relationship with Sun
changed "a bit" later on.
It shows that he really cared about MySQL and in his own way, he still
cares for MySQL.

This has nothing to do with earning money or selling things. People sell
things to companies or other people and think that the new owner will be
good for the product they cared about. Sometimes it doesn't work out
like you think it would and to me it shows that someone still cares
about that product if they try to do something about it.

I am not talking about agreeing with mr. Widenius or not; that is a
different discussion.

[1]
http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3760831/MyS QL+Back+to+Its+Roots+via+Sun.htm


Regard, Jigal.

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RE: Help saving MySQL

Claudio Nanni wrote:
> "Due to selling MySQL to Sun, Widenius earned about 16.6 million =A4 in
(...)

This isn't about Monty or how much he earns. This is about protecting MySQL=
and open source, without which many of us wouldn't have a job.

.....and besides, having dedicated 27 years of his life to MySQL I think he =
earned every last penny!

===================3D

John Daisley

MySQL 5.0 Certified Database Administrator (CMDBA)
MySQL 5.0 Certified Developer
Cognos BI Developer

Telephone: +44(0)1283 537111
Mobile: +44(0)7812 451238
Email: john.daisley@butterflysystems.co.uk

===================3D

Sent via HP IPAQ mobile device=0A=
=0A=
-----Original Message-----=0A=
From: Claudio Nanni
Sent: 14 December 2009 06:30
To: monty@askmonty.org
Cc: mysql@lists.mysql.com
Subject: Re: Help saving MySQL

"Due to selling MySQL to Sun, Widenius earned about 16.6 million =A4 in
capital gains in 2008 (16.8
million =A4 total income), making the top 10 of highest earners in Finland
that year."
[wikipedia]

Cheers

Claudio Nanni



Michael Widenius wrote:
> Subject: Help saving MySQL from Oracle!
>
> I, Michael "Monty" Widenius, the creator of MySQL, is asking you
> urgently to help save MySQL from Oracle's clutches.=A0 Without your
> immediate help Oracle might get to own MySQL any day now. By writing
> to the European Commission (EC) you can support this cause and make
> things much harder for Oracle.
>
> What this text is about:
> - Summary of what is happening
> - What Oracle has not promised
> - Oracles past behavior with Open Source
> - Help spread this information (Jump to 'What I want to ask you to do')
> - Example of email to send to the commission (Jump to 'send this to:')
>
> I have spent the last 27 years creating and working on MySQL and I
> hope, together with my team of MySQL core developers, to work on
> it for many more years.
>
> Oracle is trying to buy Sun, and since Sun bought MySQL last year,
> Oracle would then own MySQL. With your support, there is a good chance
> that the EC (from which Oracle needs approval) could prevent this from
> happening. Without your support, it might not. The EC is our last big
> hope now because the US government approved the deal while Europe is
> still worried about the effects.
>
> Instead of just working out this with the EC and agree on appropriate
> remedies to correct the situation, Oracle has instead contacted
> hundreds of their big customers and asked them to write to the EC and
> require unconditional acceptance of the deal. According what I been
> told, Oracle has promised to the customers, among other things, that
> "they will put more money into MySQL development than what Sun did"
> and that "if they would ever abandon MYSQL, a fork will appear and
> take care of things".
>
> However just putting money into development is not proof that anything
> useful will ever be delivered or that MySQL will continue to be a
> competitive force in the market as it's now.
>
> As I already blogged about before,
> http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/10/importance-of-license -model-of-my=
sql-or.html,
> a fork is not enough to keep MySQL alive for all future, if Oracle, as
> the copyright holder of MySQL, would at any point decide that they shoul=
d
> kill MySQL or make parts of MySQL closed source.
>
> Oracle claims that it would take good care of MySQL but let's face the
> facts: Unlike ten years ago, when MySQL was mostly just used for the web=
,
> it has become very functional, scalable and credible. Now it's used in
> many of the world's largest companies and they use it for an increasing
> number of purposes. This not only scares but actually hurts Oracle every
> day. Oracle salespeople have to lower prices all the time to compete wit=
h
> MySQL when companies start new projects. Some companies even migrate
> existing projects from Oracle to MySQL to save money. Of course Oracle h=
as
> a lot more features, but MySQL can already do a lot of things for which
> Oracle is often used and helps people save a lot of money. Over time MyS=
QL
> can do to Oracle what the originally belittled Linux did to commercial
> Unix (roughly speaking).
>
> So I just don't buy it that Oracle will be a good home for MySQL. A
> weak MySQL is worth about one billion dollars per year to Oracle,
> maybe more. A strong MySQL could never generate enough income for
> Oracle that they would want to cannibalize their real cash cow. I
> don't think any company has ever done anything like that. That's why
> the EC is skeptical and formalized its objections about a month ago.
>
> Richard Stallman agrees that it's very important which company owns MySQ=
L,
> that Oracle should not be allowed to buy it and that it can't just be
> taken care of by a community of volunteers: http://keionline.org/ec-mysq=
l
>
> Oracle has NOT promised (as far as I know and certainly not in a legally
> binding manner) that:
>
> - They keep (all of) MySQL under an open source license
> - Not add closed source parts, modules or required tools.
> - To not rise MySQL license or MySQL support prices
> - To release new MySQL versions in a regular and timely manner.
> - To continue with dual licensing and always provide affordable commerci=
al
>   licenses to MySQL to those who needs them (to storage vendors
>   and application vendors) or provide MySQL under a more permissive =
license
> - To develop MySQL as an Open Source project
>   - To actively work with the community
>   - Apply submitted patches in a timely manner
>   - Not discriminate patches that makes MySQL compete more with Orac=
les
>     other products.
> - To ensure that MySQL is improved also in manners that make it compete
>   even more with Oracles' main offering.
>
> >From looking at how Oracle handled the InnoDB acquisition, I don't
> have high hopes that Oracle will do the above right if not required to
> do so:
>
> For InnoDB:
> - Bug fixes where done (but this was done under a contractual obligation=
)
> - New features, like compression that was announced before acquisition, =
took
>  =A0 3 years to implement
> - No time tables or insight into development
> - The community where not allowed to participate in development
> - Patches from users (like Google) that would have increased performance=
was
>   not implemented/released until after Oracle announced it was acqui=
ring Sun.
> - Oracle started working on InnoDB+, a better 'closed source' version of=
InnoDB
> - In the end Sun had to fork InnoDB, just to be able to improve performa=
nce.
>
> It's true that development did continue, but this was more to be able
> to continue using InnoDB as a pressure on MySQL Ab.
>
> Note that Oracle's development on the Linux kernel is not comparable
> with MySQL, because:
> - Oracle is using Linux as the main platform for their primary database
>   product (and thus a better Linux makes Oracles platform better)
> - The GPL code in the kernel is not affecting what is running on top on =
it
>   (because of an exception in Linux).
>
> Because we don't have access to a database of MySQL customers and
> users the only way we can get the word out is to use the MySQL and
> Open Source community. I would never have resorted to this if Oracle
> would not have broken the well established rules in anticompetitive
> merger cases and try to influence the EC by actively mobilising the
> customers.
>
> This is very critical to this AS SOON AS POSSIBLE as EC, depending on
> what Oracle is doing, needs to make a decision either on Monday
> (2009-12-14) or within two weeks. Becasue of the strict deadline,
> every email counts!
>
> What I want to ask you to do (until 2009-12-19):
>
> - Forward this email to everyone that you know is using MySQL or Open
>   Source/free software and to all email list where you know there ar=
e
>   people present that use or care about MySQL and open source (pleas=
e check
>   first that this email hasn't been sent there before)
> - Alternatively send emails with information about this and tell them to=
read http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l
> - Add links on your web site to http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/h=
elp-saving-mysql.html with the text "We are using MySQL, help save it", for=
the
>   duration of the next two week.
> - Blog about this (feel free to include this text or just link to my blo=
g)
> - Call by phone (don't contact by email, this is urgent) your boss or VP
>   and ask him to read this email and send a letter to the EC commiss=
ion ASAP!
> - If you don't have anyone to contact above, send an email to the EC!
>
> As we want the EC to get a correct picture of the situation, we want
> you to first fill in the upper part and then choose one of the
> proposed texts belove that best matches your view of the
> situation. Feel free to supply your own text and additional
> information if you think this will help the EC to reach a better
> understanding of how MySQL is used.
>
> Send this to: comp-merger-registry@ec.europa.eu
>
> If you have extra time to help, fill in the following, if not, just skip
> to the main text.
>
> Name:
> Title:
> Company:
> Size of company:
> How many MySQL installations:
> Total data stored in MySQL (megabyte):
> For what type of applications is MySQL used:
> Should this email be kept confidential by EC:=A0 Yes/No
>
> Copy or use one of the below texts as a base for your answer:
>
> a)
> I don't trust that Oracle will take good care of MySQL and MySQL
> should be divested to another company or foundation that have
> everything to gain by developing and promoting MySQL. One should also
> in the future be able to combine MySQL with closed source application
> (either by exceptions, a more permissive license or be able to dual
> license MySQL under favourable terms)
>
> b)
>
> I think that Oracle could be a good steward of MySQL, but I would need
> EC to have legally binding guarantees from Oracle that:
> - All of MySQL will continue to be fully Open Source/free software in
>   the future (no closed source modules)
> - That development will be done in community friendly way.
> - The manual should be released under a permissive license (so that one
>   can fork it, the same way one can fork the server)
> - That MySQL should be released under a more permissive license to
>   ensure that forks can truly compete with Oracle if Oracle is not a
>   good steward after all.
> Alternatively:
> - One should be able to always buy low priced commercial licenses for My=
SQL.
>
> There should also be mechanism so that if Oracle is not doing
> what is expected of it, forks should be able to compete with Oracle
>
> c)
> I trust Oracle and I suggest that EC will approve the deal unconditional=
ly.
>
>
> --------------------
>
> Let us prove to Oracle and EC that the Open Source community is a true
> force and we take good care of our citizens and we prefer to work with
> companies that does the same!
>
> The future of MySQL is in your hands!
>
> Thanks for the help!
> Michael Widenius
> Creator of MySQL
>
>  


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@butterflysystems.co.uk



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Re: Help saving MySQL

Thank you John, You have hit on my point exactly. There are
thousands on companies and 100's of thousands of jobs which are owed
to this product. That is what we are defending.

- michael dykman

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 4:27 AM, John Daisley wrote:
>
> =A0Claudio Nanni wrote:
> =A0> "Due to selling MySQL to Sun, Widenius earned about 16.6 million =80=
in
> =A0(...)
>
> This isn't about Monty or how much he earns. This is about protecting MyS=
QL and open source, without which many of us wouldn't have a job.
>
> ....and besides, having dedicated 27 years of his life to MySQL I think h=
e earned every last penny!
>
> ===================3D
>
> John Daisley
>
> MySQL 5.0 Certified Database Administrator (CMDBA)
> MySQL 5.0 Certified Developer
> Cognos BI Developer
>
> Telephone: +44(0)1283 537111
> Mobile: +44(0)7812 451238
> Email: john.daisley@butterflysystems.co.uk
>
> ===================3D
>
> Sent via HP IPAQ mobile device
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Claudio Nanni
> Sent: 14 December 2009 06:30
> To: monty@askmonty.org
> Cc: mysql@lists.mysql.com
> Subject: Re: Help saving MySQL
>
> "Due to selling MySQL to Sun, Widenius earned about 16.6 million =80 in
> =A0capital gains in 2008 (16.=
8
> =A0million =80 total income), making the top 10 of highest earners in Fin=
land
> =A0that year."
> =A0[wikipedia]
>
> =A0Cheers
>
> =A0Claudio Nanni
>
>
>
> =A0Michael Widenius wrote:
> =A0> Subject: Help saving MySQL from Oracle!
> =A0>
> =A0> I, Michael "Monty" Widenius, the creator of MySQL, is asking you
> =A0> urgently to help save MySQL from Oracle's clutches.=A0 Without your
> =A0> immediate help Oracle might get to own MySQL any day now. By writing
> =A0> to the European Commission (EC) you can support this cause and make
> =A0> things much harder for Oracle.
> =A0>
> =A0> What this text is about:
> =A0> - Summary of what is happening
> =A0> - What Oracle has not promised
> =A0> - Oracles past behavior with Open Source
> =A0> - Help spread this information (Jump to 'What I want to ask you to d=
o')
> =A0> - Example of email to send to the commission (Jump to 'send this to:=
')
> =A0>
> =A0> I have spent the last 27 years creating and working on MySQL and I
> =A0> hope, together with my team of MySQL core developers, to work on
> =A0> it for many more years.
> =A0>
> =A0> Oracle is trying to buy Sun, and since Sun bought MySQL last year,
> =A0> Oracle would then own MySQL. With your support, there is a good chan=
ce
> =A0> that the EC (from which Oracle needs approval) could prevent this fr=
om
> =A0> happening. Without your support, it might not. The EC is our last bi=
g
> =A0> hope now because the US government approved the deal while Europe is
> =A0> still worried about the effects.
> =A0>
> =A0> Instead of just working out this with the EC and agree on appropriat=
e
> =A0> remedies to correct the situation, Oracle has instead contacted
> =A0> hundreds of their big customers and asked them to write to the EC an=
d
> =A0> require unconditional acceptance of the deal. According what I been
> =A0> told, Oracle has promised to the customers, among other things, that
> =A0> "they will put more money into MySQL development than what Sun did"
> =A0> and that "if they would ever abandon MYSQL, a fork will appear and
> =A0> take care of things".
> =A0>
> =A0> However just putting money into development is not proof that anythi=
ng
> =A0> useful will ever be delivered or that MySQL will continue to be a
> =A0> competitive force in the market as it's now.
> =A0>
> =A0> As I already blogged about before,
> =A0> http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/10/importance-of-license -model-o=
f-mysql-or.html,
> =A0> a fork is not enough to keep MySQL alive for all future, if Oracle, =
as
> =A0> the copyright holder of MySQL, would at any point decide that they s=
hould
> =A0> kill MySQL or make parts of MySQL closed source.
> =A0>
> =A0> Oracle claims that it would take good care of MySQL but let's face t=
he
> =A0> facts: Unlike ten years ago, when MySQL was mostly just used for the=
web,
> =A0> it has become very functional, scalable and credible. Now it's used =
in
> =A0> many of the world's largest companies and they use it for an increas=
ing
> =A0> number of purposes. This not only scares but actually hurts Oracle e=
very
> =A0> day. Oracle salespeople have to lower prices all the time to compete=
with
> =A0> MySQL when companies start new projects. Some companies even migrate
> =A0> existing projects from Oracle to MySQL to save money. Of course Orac=
le has
> =A0> a lot more features, but MySQL can already do a lot of things for wh=
ich
> =A0> Oracle is often used and helps people save a lot of money. Over time=
MySQL
> =A0> can do to Oracle what the originally belittled Linux did to commerci=
al
> =A0> Unix (roughly speaking).
> =A0>
> =A0> So I just don't buy it that Oracle will be a good home for MySQL. A
> =A0> weak MySQL is worth about one billion dollars per year to Oracle,
> =A0> maybe more. A strong MySQL could never generate enough income for
> =A0> Oracle that they would want to cannibalize their real cash cow. I
> =A0> don't think any company has ever done anything like that. That's why
> =A0> the EC is skeptical and formalized its objections about a month ago.
> =A0>
> =A0> Richard Stallman agrees that it's very important which company owns =
MySQL,
> =A0> that Oracle should not be allowed to buy it and that it can't just b=
e
> =A0> taken care of by a community of volunteers: http://keionline.org/ec-=
mysql
> =A0>
> =A0> Oracle has NOT promised (as far as I know and certainly not in a leg=
ally
> =A0> binding manner) that:
> =A0>
> =A0> - They keep (all of) MySQL under an open source license
> =A0> - Not add closed source parts, modules or required tools.
> =A0> - To not rise MySQL license or MySQL support prices
> =A0> - To release new MySQL versions in a regular and timely manner.
> =A0> - To continue with dual licensing and always provide affordable comm=
ercial
> =A0>   licenses to MySQL to those who needs them (to storage vendors
> =A0>   and application vendors) or provide MySQL under a more permiss=
ive license
> =A0> - To develop MySQL as an Open Source project
> =A0>   - To actively work with the community
> =A0>   - Apply submitted patches in a timely manner
> =A0>   - Not discriminate patches that makes MySQL compete more with =
Oracles
> =A0>     other products.
> =A0> - To ensure that MySQL is improved also in manners that make it comp=
ete
> =A0>   even more with Oracles' main offering.
> =A0>
> =A0> >From looking at how Oracle handled the InnoDB acquisition, I don't
> =A0> have high hopes that Oracle will do the above right if not required =
to
> =A0> do so:
> =A0>
> =A0> For InnoDB:
> =A0> - Bug fixes where done (but this was done under a contractual obliga=
tion)
> =A0> - New features, like compression that was announced before acquisiti=
on, took
> =A0>  =A0 3 years to implement
> =A0> - No time tables or insight into development
> =A0> - The community where not allowed to participate in development
> =A0> - Patches from users (like Google) that would have increased perform=
ance was
> =A0>   not implemented/released until after Oracle announced it was a=
cquiring Sun.
> =A0> - Oracle started working on InnoDB+, a better 'closed source' versio=
n of InnoDB
> =A0> - In the end Sun had to fork InnoDB, just to be able to improve perf=
ormance.
> =A0>
> =A0> It's true that development did continue, but this was more to be abl=
e
> =A0> to continue using InnoDB as a pressure on MySQL Ab.
> =A0>
> =A0> Note that Oracle's development on the Linux kernel is not comparable
> =A0> with MySQL, because:
> =A0> - Oracle is using Linux as the main platform for their primary datab=
ase
> =A0>   product (and thus a better Linux makes Oracles platform better=
)
> =A0> - The GPL code in the kernel is not affecting what is running on top=
on it
> =A0>   (because of an exception in Linux).
> =A0>
> =A0> Because we don't have access to a database of MySQL customers and
> =A0> users the only way we can get the word out is to use the MySQL and
> =A0> Open Source community. I would never have resorted to this if Oracle
> =A0> would not have broken the well established rules in anticompetitive
> =A0> merger cases and try to influence the EC by actively mobilising the
> =A0> customers.
> =A0>
> =A0> This is very critical to this AS SOON AS POSSIBLE as EC, depending o=
n
> =A0> what Oracle is doing, needs to make a decision either on Monday
> =A0> (2009-12-14) or within two weeks. Becasue of the strict deadline,
> =A0> every email counts!
> =A0>
> =A0> What I want to ask you to do (until 2009-12-19):
> =A0>
> =A0> - Forward this email to everyone that you know is using MySQL or Ope=
n
> =A0>   Source/free software and to all email list where you know ther=
e are
> =A0>   people present that use or care about MySQL and open source (p=
lease check
> =A0>   first that this email hasn't been sent there before)
> =A0> - Alternatively send emails with information about this and tell the=
m to read http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l
> =A0> - Add links on your web site to http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/=
12/help-saving-mysql.html with the text "We are using MySQL, help save it",=
for the
> =A0>   duration of the next two week.
> =A0> - Blog about this (feel free to include this text or just link to my=
blog)
> =A0> - Call by phone (don't contact by email, this is urgent) your boss o=
r VP
> =A0>   and ask him to read this email and send a letter to the EC com=
mission ASAP!
> =A0> - If you don't have anyone to contact above, send an email to the EC=
!
> =A0>
> =A0> As we want the EC to get a correct picture of the situation, we want
> =A0> you to first fill in the upper part and then choose one of the
> =A0> proposed texts belove that best matches your view of the
> =A0> situation. Feel free to supply your own text and additional
> =A0> information if you think this will help the EC to reach a better
> =A0> understanding of how MySQL is used.
> =A0>
> =A0> Send this to: comp-merger-registry@ec.europa.eu
> =A0>
> =A0> If you have extra time to help, fill in the following, if not, just =
skip
> =A0> to the main text.
> =A0>
> =A0> Name:
> =A0> Title:
> =A0> Company:
> =A0> Size of company:
> =A0> How many MySQL installations:
> =A0> Total data stored in MySQL (megabyte):
> =A0> For what type of applications is MySQL used:
> =A0> Should this email be kept confidential by EC:=A0 Yes/No
> =A0>
> =A0> Copy or use one of the below texts as a base for your answer:
> =A0>
> =A0> a)
> =A0> I don't trust that Oracle will take good care of MySQL and MySQL
> =A0> should be divested to another company or foundation that have
> =A0> everything to gain by developing and promoting MySQL. One should als=
o
> =A0> in the future be able to combine MySQL with closed source applicatio=
n
> =A0> (either by exceptions, a more permissive license or be able to dual
> =A0> license MySQL under favourable terms)
> =A0>
> =A0> b)
> =A0>
> =A0> I think that Oracle could be a good steward of MySQL, but I would ne=
ed
> =A0> EC to have legally binding guarantees from Oracle that:
> =A0> - All of MySQL will continue to be fully Open Source/free software i=
n
> =A0>   the future (no closed source modules)
> =A0> - That development will be done in community friendly way.
> =A0> - The manual should be released under a permissive license (so that =
one
> =A0>   can fork it, the same way one can fork the server)
> =A0> - That MySQL should be released under a more permissive license to
> =A0>   ensure that forks can truly compete with Oracle if Oracle is n=
ot a
> =A0>   good steward after all.
> =A0> Alternatively:
> =A0> - One should be able to always buy low priced commercial licenses fo=
r MySQL.
> =A0>
> =A0> There should also be mechanism so that if Oracle is not doing
> =A0> what is expected of it, forks should be able to compete with Oracle
> =A0>
> =A0> c)
> =A0> I trust Oracle and I suggest that EC will approve the deal unconditi=
onally.
> =A0>
> =A0>
> =A0> --------------------
> =A0>
> =A0> Let us prove to Oracle and EC that the Open Source community is a tr=
ue
> =A0> force and we take good care of our citizens and we prefer to work wi=
th
> =A0> companies that does the same!
> =A0>
> =A0> The future of MySQL is in your hands!
> =A0>
> =A0> Thanks for the help!
> =A0> Michael Widenius
> =A0> Creator of MySQL
> =A0>
> =A0>
>
>
> =A0--
> =A0MySQL General Mailing List
> =A0For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql
> =A0To unsubscribe:  =A0 http://lists.mysql.com/mysql?unsub=3Djohn.dai=
sley@butterflysystems.co.uk
>
>
>
> --
> MySQL General Mailing List
> For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql
> To unsubscribe: =A0 =A0http://lists.mysql.com/mysql?unsub=3Dmdykman@gmail=
..com
>
>



--=20
- michael dykman
- mdykman@gmail.com

"May you live every day of your life."
Jonathan Swift

Larry's First Law of Language Redesign: Everyone wants the colon.

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Re: Help saving MySQL

--------------060805030301060108050602
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

i don't really thinks this is about open source or not.

MySQL became more closed when Sun bought it and while i think that
Oracle will try to get this even more closed IMO it's time to fork it as
a really open source project. Monty could lead this. The are a lot of
"forks" around that make MySQL even better that it is from SUN.

All MySQL's Admin and developers will still get there jobs even with
Oracle around, and maybe make more money of it.

Linux situation in Oracle will change if Solaris became part of Oracle
Umbrella as Oracle will push Solaris as there main operating system
because it will get his proprietary software in all the stack.

This is a good time to prove that OSS is really opensource and can
survive this situation.

Facundo.
"the difference between God and Larry Elison is that God doesn't think
he is Larry Ellison"

ps: sorry my bad english, not my native language

On 14/12/2009 02:09 p.m., Michael Dykman wrote:
> Thank you John, You have hit on my point exactly. There are
> thousands on companies and 100's of thousands of jobs which are owed
> to this product. That is what we are defending.
>
> - michael dykman
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 4:27 AM, John Daisley wrote:
>
>> Claudio Nanni wrote:
>> > "Due to selling MySQL to Sun, Widenius earned about 16.6 million € in
>> (...)
>>
>> This isn't about Monty or how much he earns. This is about protecting MySQL and open source, without which many of us wouldn't have a job.
>>
>> ....and besides, having dedicated 27 years of his life to MySQL I think he earned every last penny!
>>
>> ===================
>>
>> John Daisley
>>
>> MySQL 5.0 Certified Database Administrator (CMDBA)
>> MySQL 5.0 Certified Developer
>> Cognos BI Developer
>>
>> Telephone: +44(0)1283 537111
>> Mobile: +44(0)7812 451238
>> Email: john.daisley@butterflysystems.co.uk
>>
>> ===================
>>
>> Sent via HP IPAQ mobile device
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Claudio Nanni
>> Sent: 14 December 2009 06:30
>> To: monty@askmonty.org
>> Cc: mysql@lists.mysql.com
>> Subject: Re: Help saving MySQL
>>
>> "Due to selling MySQL to Sun, Widenius earned about 16.6 million € in
>> capital gains in 2008 (16.8
>> million € total income), making the top 10 of highest earners in Finland
>> that year."
>> [wikipedia]
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Claudio Nanni
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael Widenius wrote:
>> > Subject: Help saving MySQL from Oracle!
>> >
>> > I, Michael "Monty" Widenius, the creator of MySQL, is asking you
>> > urgently to help save MySQL from Oracle's clutches. Without your
>> > immediate help Oracle might get to own MySQL any day now. By writing
>> > to the European Commission (EC) you can support this cause and make
>> > things much harder for Oracle.
>> >
>> > What this text is about:
>> > - Summary of what is happening
>> > - What Oracle has not promised
>> > - Oracles past behavior with Open Source
>> > - Help spread this information (Jump to 'What I want to ask you to do')
>> > - Example of email to send to the commission (Jump to 'send this to:')
>> >
>> > I have spent the last 27 years creating and working on MySQL and I
>> > hope, together with my team of MySQL core developers, to work on
>> > it for many more years.
>> >
>> > Oracle is trying to buy Sun, and since Sun bought MySQL last year,
>> > Oracle would then own MySQL. With your support, there is a good chance
>> > that the EC (from which Oracle needs approval) could prevent this from
>> > happening. Without your support, it might not. The EC is our last big
>> > hope now because the US government approved the deal while Europe is
>> > still worried about the effects.
>> >
>> > Instead of just working out this with the EC and agree on appropriate
>> > remedies to correct the situation, Oracle has instead contacted
>> > hundreds of their big customers and asked them to write to the EC and
>> > require unconditional acceptance of the deal. According what I been
>> > told, Oracle has promised to the customers, among other things, that
>> > "they will put more money into MySQL development than what Sun did"
>> > and that "if they would ever abandon MYSQL, a fork will appear and
>> > take care of things".
>> >
>> > However just putting money into development is not proof that anything
>> > useful will ever be delivered or that MySQL will continue to be a
>> > competitive force in the market as it's now.
>> >
>> > As I already blogged about before,
>> > http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/10/importance-of-license -model-of-mysql-or.html,
>> > a fork is not enough to keep MySQL alive for all future, if Oracle, as
>> > the copyright holder of MySQL, would at any point decide that they should
>> > kill MySQL or make parts of MySQL closed source.
>> >
>> > Oracle claims that it would take good care of MySQL but let's face the
>> > facts: Unlike ten years ago, when MySQL was mostly just used for the web,
>> > it has become very functional, scalable and credible. Now it's used in
>> > many of the world's largest companies and they use it for an increasing
>> > number of purposes. This not only scares but actually hurts Oracle every
>> > day. Oracle salespeople have to lower prices all the time to compete with
>> > MySQL when companies start new projects. Some companies even migrate
>> > existing projects from Oracle to MySQL to save money. Of course Oracle has
>> > a lot more features, but MySQL can already do a lot of things for which
>> > Oracle is often used and helps people save a lot of money. Over time MySQL
>> > can do to Oracle what the originally belittled Linux did to commercial
>> > Unix (roughly speaking).
>> >
>> > So I just don't buy it that Oracle will be a good home for MySQL. A
>> > weak MySQL is worth about one billion dollars per year to Oracle,
>> > maybe more. A strong MySQL could never generate enough income for
>> > Oracle that they would want to cannibalize their real cash cow. I
>> > don't think any company has ever done anything like that. That's why
>> > the EC is skeptical and formalized its objections about a month ago.
>> >
>> > Richard Stallman agrees that it's very important which company owns MySQL,
>> > that Oracle should not be allowed to buy it and that it can't just be
>> > taken care of by a community of volunteers: http://keionline.org/ec-mysql
>> >
>> > Oracle has NOT promised (as far as I know and certainly not in a legally
>> > binding manner) that:
>> >
>> > - They keep (all of) MySQL under an open source license
>> > - Not add closed source parts, modules or required tools.
>> > - To not rise MySQL license or MySQL support prices
>> > - To release new MySQL versions in a regular and timely manner.
>> > - To continue with dual licensing and always provide affordable commercial
>> > licenses to MySQL to those who needs them (to storage vendors
>> > and application vendors) or provide MySQL under a more permissive license
>> > - To develop MySQL as an Open Source project
>> > - To actively work with the community
>> > - Apply submitted patches in a timely manner
>> > - Not discriminate patches that makes MySQL compete more with Oracles
>> > other products.
>> > - To ensure that MySQL is improved also in manners that make it compete
>> > even more with Oracles' main offering.
>> >
>> > > From looking at how Oracle handled the InnoDB acquisition, I don't
>> > have high hopes that Oracle will do the above right if not required to
>> > do so:
>> >
>> > For InnoDB:
>> > - Bug fixes where done (but this was done under a contractual obligation)
>> > - New features, like compression that was announced before acquisition, took
>> > 3 years to implement
>> > - No time tables or insight into development
>> > - The community where not allowed to participate in development
>> > - Patches from users (like Google) that would have increased performance was
>> > not implemented/released until after Oracle announced it was acquiring Sun.
>> > - Oracle started working on InnoDB+, a better 'closed source' version of InnoDB
>> > - In the end Sun had to fork InnoDB, just to be able to improve performance.
>> >
>> > It's true that development did continue, but this was more to be able
>> > to continue using InnoDB as a pressure on MySQL Ab.
>> >
>> > Note that Oracle's development on the Linux kernel is not comparable
>> > with MySQL, because:
>> > - Oracle is using Linux as the main platform for their primary database
>> > product (and thus a better Linux makes Oracles platform better)
>> > - The GPL code in the kernel is not affecting what is running on top on it
>> > (because of an exception in Linux).
>> >
>> > Because we don't have access to a database of MySQL customers and
>> > users the only way we can get the word out is to use the MySQL and
>> > Open Source community. I would never have resorted to this if Oracle
>> > would not have broken the well established rules in anticompetitive
>> > merger cases and try to influence the EC by actively mobilising the
>> > customers.
>> >
>> > This is very critical to this AS SOON AS POSSIBLE as EC, depending on
>> > what Oracle is doing, needs to make a decision either on Monday
>> > (2009-12-14) or within two weeks. Becasue of the strict deadline,
>> > every email counts!
>> >
>> > What I want to ask you to do (until 2009-12-19):
>> >
>> > - Forward this email to everyone that you know is using MySQL or Open
>> > Source/free software and to all email list where you know there are
>> > people present that use or care about MySQL and open source (please check
>> > first that this email hasn't been sent there before)
>> > - Alternatively send emails with information about this and tell them to read http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l
>> > - Add links on your web site to http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l with the text "We are using MySQL, help save it", for the
>> > duration of the next two week.
>> > - Blog about this (feel free to include this text or just link to my blog)
>> > - Call by phone (don't contact by email, this is urgent) your boss or VP
>> > and ask him to read this email and send a letter to the EC commission ASAP!
>> > - If you don't have anyone to contact above, send an email to the EC!
>> >
>> > As we want the EC to get a correct picture of the situation, we want
>> > you to first fill in the upper part and then choose one of the
>> > proposed texts belove that best matches your view of the
>> > situation. Feel free to supply your own text and additional
>> > information if you think this will help the EC to reach a better
>> > understanding of how MySQL is used.
>> >
>> > Send this to: comp-merger-registry@ec.europa.eu
>> >
>> > If you have extra time to help, fill in the following, if not, just skip
>> > to the main text.
>> >
>> > Name:
>> > Title:
>> > Company:
>> > Size of company:
>> > How many MySQL installations:
>> > Total data stored in MySQL (megabyte):
>> > For what type of applications is MySQL used:
>> > Should this email be kept confidential by EC: Yes/No
>> >
>> > Copy or use one of the below texts as a base for your answer:
>> >
>> > a)
>> > I don't trust that Oracle will take good care of MySQL and MySQL
>> > should be divested to another company or foundation that have
>> > everything to gain by developing and promoting MySQL. One should also
>> > in the future be able to combine MySQL with closed source application
>> > (either by exceptions, a more permissive license or be able to dual
>> > license MySQL under favourable terms)
>> >
>> > b)
>> >
>> > I think that Oracle could be a good steward of MySQL, but I would need
>> > EC to have legally binding guarantees from Oracle that:
>> > - All of MySQL will continue to be fully Open Source/free software in
>> > the future (no closed source modules)
>> > - That development will be done in community friendly way.
>> > - The manual should be released under a permissive license (so that one
>> > can fork it, the same way one can fork the server)
>> > - That MySQL should be released under a more permissive license to
>> > ensure that forks can truly compete with Oracle if Oracle is not a
>> > good steward after all.
>> > Alternatively:
>> > - One should be able to always buy low priced commercial licenses for MySQL.
>> >
>> > There should also be mechanism so that if Oracle is not doing
>> > what is expected of it, forks should be able to compete with Oracle
>> >
>> > c)
>> > I trust Oracle and I suggest that EC will approve the deal unconditionally.
>> >
>> >
>> > --------------------
>> >
>> > Let us prove to Oracle and EC that the Open Source community is a true
>> > force and we take good care of our citizens and we prefer to work with
>> > companies that does the same!
>> >
>> > The future of MySQL is in your hands!
>> >
>> > Thanks for the help!
>> > Michael Widenius
>> > Creator of MySQL
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> MySQL General Mailing List
>> For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql
>> To unsubscribe: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql?unsub=john.daisley@butterflysys tems.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> MySQL General Mailing List
>> For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql
>> To unsubscribe: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql?unsub=mdykman@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

--------------060805030301060108050602--

Re: Help saving MySQL

On 12/14/09 1:49 AM, "Claudio Nanni" wrote:

> If he really cared about MySQL he would have not sold it or prevent from
> selling it to Sun.

i don't see the logic in this sentence.



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Re: Help saving MySQL

On 12/13/09 11:23 AM, "Neil Aggarwal" wrote:

> Doug:
>
>> I do not
>> see anyone willing to put up anything to support mysql... you
>> don't like
>> it... put up a billion dollars an take control or shut the heck up!
>
> Assuming MySQL as it stands today is 100% open source,
> I think an easier path is to create a new project from
> the currently existing sources. Call it something else,
> dbXYZ for instance. Then, Oracle can do anything it
> wants to MySQL.
>
> I am pretty sure if Michael leads the project, the open
> source community will follow.
>
> Can that be done or did I miss something?

i think it can be done.

> If that is the case, what can Oracle really do
> to hurt MySQL?

my guess is that it would be better if mysql did not need to fork. the harm
would be the confusion caused to users. it would be sad if users chose not
to use mysql because they had listened to scare stories about its possible
future. if trust busters can be cajoled into making sure oracle doesn't harm
oss mysql, that would be better.



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Re: Help saving MySQL

--00c09ffb56d6ec2cc3047ab508d7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

You build a green park where children can play.
Then you sell the park to a private company.
The company can: not mantain it so that the park becomes junkies place, have
people pay to access it or even close it.
I, the builder, would not start a crusade or weep after I have sold it,
Once it is on the market it is like any other goods.
I am on MySQL almost ten years but I am not scared of switching to Postgres,
to a fork, start a new project, or quit dba for other real open source
spirit journey.
The community and open spirit is important not the product.
Thats my view.
Thanks Monty, always, for your gift.
Claudio

On 14 dec 2009 19:36, "Tom Worster" wrote:

On 12/14/09 1:49 AM, "Claudio Nanni" wrote: > If
he really cared about My...
i don't see the logic in this sentence.

--00c09ffb56d6ec2cc3047ab508d7--

Re: Help saving MySQL

and thanks for sharing your view. here's mine:

mysql was sold to sun, a company with a long and deep commitment to oos.
while there were obviously risks to the sale, one plausible motive (among
others) is that a company like sun would be better placed to further
develop, market and support mysql, get it into the hands of more users (sun
is a trusted name even among the conservative and risk-averse parts of the
market), leverage their service and support organization, etc. and if they
can make money off it then maybe they will invest in development too.

so i see it as reasonable to have believed that sun would be good for mysql,
indeed that sun would be good next step for mysql in its journey. hence i
don't see that this sale necessarily implies that monty did not really care
about mysql.

i'm not advocating these arguments. i'm simply saying that, whether one
agrees with such arguments or not, there could plausibly exist conditions
under which sale of mysql to sun was compatible with really caring about it.


On 12/14/09 2:11 PM, "Claudio Nanni" wrote:

> You build a green park where children can play.
> Then you sell the park to a private company.
> The company can: not mantain it so that the park becomes junkies place, have
> people pay to access it or even close it.
> I, the builder, would not start a crusade or weep after I have sold it,
> Once it is on the market it is like any other goods.
> I am on MySQL almost ten years but I am not scared of switching to Postgres,
> to a fork, start a new project, or quit dba for other real open source
> spirit journey.
> The community and open spirit is important not the product.
> Thats my view.
> Thanks Monty, always, for your gift.
> Claudio
>
> On 14 dec 2009 19:36, "Tom Worster" wrote:
>
> On 12/14/09 1:49 AM, "Claudio Nanni" wrote: > If
> he really cared about My...
> i don't see the logic in this sentence.



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Re: Help saving MySQL

I think we are on the same line, I put it to excess to spotlight the
crucial point, how it was based on the 'good will' of Sun, which I
simply adhore and thank only for existing
I was actually happy when that happened because with Sun, MySQL was
perfectly fitting in the big picture of Sun products, and could have had
the big jump integrating it
with some application server / framework (glassfish, j2ee, etc).
But big fish eat small fish, and once you are in the ocean.....run!

Thanks Tom

Claudio

Tom Worster wrote:
> and thanks for sharing your view. here's mine:
>
> mysql was sold to sun, a company with a long and deep commitment to oos.
> while there were obviously risks to the sale, one plausible motive (among
> others) is that a company like sun would be better placed to further
> develop, market and support mysql, get it into the hands of more users (sun
> is a trusted name even among the conservative and risk-averse parts of the
> market), leverage their service and support organization, etc. and if they
> can make money off it then maybe they will invest in development too.
>
> so i see it as reasonable to have believed that sun would be good for mysql,
> indeed that sun would be good next step for mysql in its journey. hence i
> don't see that this sale necessarily implies that monty did not really care
> about mysql.
>
> i'm not advocating these arguments. i'm simply saying that, whether one
> agrees with such arguments or not, there could plausibly exist conditions
> under which sale of mysql to sun was compatible with really caring about it.
>
>
> On 12/14/09 2:11 PM, "Claudio Nanni" wrote:
>
>
>> You build a green park where children can play.
>> Then you sell the park to a private company.
>> The company can: not mantain it so that the park becomes junkies place, have
>> people pay to access it or even close it.
>> I, the builder, would not start a crusade or weep after I have sold it,
>> Once it is on the market it is like any other goods.
>> I am on MySQL almost ten years but I am not scared of switching to Postgres,
>> to a fork, start a new project, or quit dba for other real open source
>> spirit journey.
>> The community and open spirit is important not the product.
>> Thats my view.
>> Thanks Monty, always, for your gift.
>> Claudio
>>
>> On 14 dec 2009 19:36, "Tom Worster" wrote:
>>
>> On 12/14/09 1:49 AM, "Claudio Nanni" wrote: > If
>> he really cared about My...
>> i don't see the logic in this sentence.
>>
>
>
>
>


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RE: Help saving MySQL

MySQL is a huge and trusted brand, yes you could run with a fork but at the=
end of the day it will never be MySQL. Its that MySQL brand name which sel=
ls the underlying software, support packages, books, training, certificatio=
ns and the services of a huge number of Sun and independent consultants.=20

There are already a few forks out there but you rarely hear about them beca=
use they are not MySQL. MySQL is more than just some code, its hundreds of =
developers, its a huge community, its this list, its a trusted brand name, =
etc, etc, etc. Theres so many things which make MySQL what it is and you co=
uld copy every last line of code into a fork, give it a fancy name and spen=
d millions on advertising and promotion but you still won't have anything e=
ven close to MySQL.

The MySQL code will always survive in some form, regardless of who owns it =
but MySQL could be coming to an end if we don't support it.



===================3D

John Daisley

MySQL 5.0 Certified Database Administrator (CMDBA)
MySQL 5.0 Certified Developer
Cognos BI Developer

Telephone: +44(0)1283 537111
Mobile: +44(0)7812 451238
Email: john.daisley@butterflysystems.co.uk

===================3D

Sent via HP IPAQ mobile device=0A=
=0A=
-----Original Message-----=0A=
From: Tom Worster
Sent: 14 December 2009 20:02
To: claudio.nanni@gmail.com
Cc: mysql@lists.mysql.com
Subject: Re: Help saving MySQL

and thanks for sharing your view. here's mine:

mysql was sold to sun, a company with a long and deep commitment to oos.
while there were obviously risks to the sale, one plausible motive (among
others) is that a company like sun would be better placed to further
develop, market and support mysql, get it into the hands of more users (su=
n
is a trusted name even among the conservative and risk-averse parts of the
market), leverage their service and support organization, etc. and if they
can make money off it then maybe they will invest in development too.

so i see it as reasonable to have believed that sun would be good for mysq=
l,
indeed that sun would be good next step for mysql in its journey. hence i
don't see that this sale necessarily implies that monty did not really car=
e
about mysql.

i'm not advocating these arguments. i'm simply saying that, whether one
agrees with such arguments or not, there could plausibly exist conditions
under which sale of mysql to sun was compatible with really caring about i=
t.


On 12/14/09 2:11 PM, "Claudio Nanni" wrote:

> You build a green park where children can play.
> Then you sell the park to a private company.
> The company can: not mantain it so that the park becomes junkies place, =
have
> people pay to access it or even close it.
> I, the builder, would not start a crusade or weep after I have sold it,
> Once it is on the market it is like any other goods.
> I am on MySQL almost ten years but I am not scared of switching to Postg=
res,
> to a fork, start a new project, or quit dba for other real open source
> spirit journey.
> The community and open spirit is important not the product.
> Thats my view.
> Thanks Monty, always, for your gift.
> Claudio
>
> On 14 dec 2009 19:36, "Tom Worster" wrote:
>
> On 12/14/09 1:49 AM, "Claudio Nanni" wrote: > =
If
> he really cared about My...
> i don't see the logic in this sentence.



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@butterflysystems.co.uk



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RE: Help saving MySQL

Yeah, plus just think about all those job sites and resumes that would
have to change from "LAMP Developer" to "LAxP Developer"
if MySQL forked and changed names! Myself included. All those poor
recruiters would need to be trained to know that dbXYZ == MySQL. LOL.

How many "LADP Developsers" do you ever hear about?! ;-)
(for those that live in a cave, the "D" would be for "http://drizzle.org/")

;-)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Daisley [mailto:mg_sv_r@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:52 PM
> To: fsb@thefsb.org ; claudio.nanni@gmail.com
> Cc: mysql@lists.mysql.com
> Subject: RE: Help saving MySQL
>
> MySQL is a huge and trusted brand, yes you could run with a
> fork but at the end of the day it will never be MySQL. Its
> that MySQL brand name which sells the underlying software,
> support packages, books, training, certifications and the
> services of a huge number of Sun and independent consultants.
>
> There are already a few forks out there but you rarely hear
> about them because they are not MySQL. MySQL is more than
> just some code, its hundreds of developers, its a huge
> community, its this list, its a trusted brand name, etc, etc,
> etc. Theres so many things which make MySQL what it is and
> you could copy every last line of code into a fork, give it a
> fancy name and spend millions on advertising and promotion
> but you still won't have anything even close to MySQL.
>
> The MySQL code will always survive in some form, regardless
> of who owns it but MySQL could be coming to an end if we
> don't support it.


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Re: Help saving MySQL

> Tom Worster :
> my guess is that it would be better if mysql did not need to fork.
> the harm would be the confusion caused to users.

I really dont think it is a problem.
_Users_ lazzy to follow the fork will stay with MySQL under Oracle.
_Users_ less lazzy will switch.

Developpers will always know what to do.
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Re: Help saving MySQL

Hi!

>>>>> "Facundo" == Facundo Garat writes:

Facundo> i don't really thinks this is about open source or not.

Agree, this has to do about competition and that Oracle, the leader in
revenue for databases are trying to buy MySQL, the leader in users
just to kill it off.

Facundo> MySQL became more closed when Sun bought it and while i think that
Facundo> Oracle will try to get this even more closed IMO it's time to fork it as
Facundo> a really open source project. Monty could lead this. The are a lot of
Facundo> "forks" around that make MySQL even better that it is from SUN.

I have already done a fork, MariaDB. This was done to engage the
community that MySQL AB and Sun has been neglecting into MySQL
development.

The problem with a fork of an infrastructure program like GPL is that
it can only survive if the owner of the copyright has good intentions,
like Sun has.

With Oracle as a copyright owner, there is very little chance for a
fork to survice. I have written an analyse of this at:
http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/10/importance-of-license -model-of-mysql-or.html

The promises that Oracle has done regarding MySQL are not enough to
protect MySQL from being killed as an Open Source project; When you
analyse them, they are actually promising very little now and nothing
after 5 years!

It's still not too late to save MySQL and everyone that is using MySQL
can help making a real difference.
Please visit
http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l
and write a message to EC!

Regards,
Monty

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Re: Help saving MySQL

Michael Widenius wrote:

>
> Hi!
>
>>>>>> "Facundo" == Facundo Garat writes:
>
> Facundo> i don't really thinks this is about open source or not.
>
> Agree, this has to do about competition and that Oracle, the leader
> in revenue for databases are trying to buy MySQL, the leader in
> users just to kill it off.
>
> Facundo> MySQL became more closed when Sun bought it and while i
> think that Facundo> Oracle will try to get this even more closed IMO
> it's time to fork it as Facundo> a really open source project. Monty
> could lead this. The are a lot of Facundo> "forks" around that make
> MySQL even better that it is from SUN.
>
> I have already done a fork, MariaDB. This was done to engage the
> community that MySQL AB and Sun has been neglecting into MySQL
> development.
>
> The problem with a fork of an infrastructure program like GPL is
> that it can only survive if the owner of the copyright has good
> intentions, like Sun has.
>
> With Oracle as a copyright owner, there is very little chance for a
> fork to survice. I have written an analyse of this at:
> http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/10/importance-of-license -model-
of-mysql-or.html
>
> The promises that Oracle has done regarding MySQL are not enough to
> protect MySQL from being killed as an Open Source project; When you
> analyse them, they are actually promising very little now and
> nothing after 5 years!
>
> It's still not too late to save MySQL and everyone that is using
> MySQL can help making a real difference.
> Please visit
> http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l
> and write a message to EC!
>
> Regards,
> Monty
I really agree with you. Even though the dumb regulators in my country
refuse to prevent this purchase. I am really worried about OpenOffice
and VirtualBox also. I've used MySQL since my system ran Windows ME,
even though it was not supposed to run under ME. I have been
exclusively Linux (openSUSE) since 1999. I only have VirtualBox so i
can run TurboTax once a year.

I've worked with oracle and I would never trust them.

Can your fork run concurently with MySQl and what is the link to it?

I did send an email to the EU even though it will not help this
country.
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Re: Help saving MySQL

> It's still not too late to save MySQL and everyone that is using MySQL
> can help making a real difference.
> Please visit
> http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l
> and write a message to EC!
>
> Regards,
> Monty

Guess you don't want them to write letters like this?
http://kirkwylie.blogspot.com/2009/12/my-open-letter-to-euro pean-competition.html






With regards,

Martijn Tonies
Upscene Productions
http://www.upscene.com

Download Database Workbench for Oracle, MS SQL Server, Sybase SQL
Anywhere, MySQL, InterBase, NexusDB and Firebird!

Database questions? Check the forum:
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RE: Help saving MySQL

I think that letter actually does MySQL a favour as it points out=20

'MySQL has been used as a pricing lever by Oracle customers'

That single factor says Oracle should not be allowed to control MySQL as i=
t would enable Oracle to more easily raise or maintain high prices! For s=
omething to be an effective 'pricing lever' it has to be a viable alternat=
ive. MySQL is a very effective pricing lever on Oracle as it is a mature a=
nd proven product with excellent support.

Regards

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Martijn Tonies
Sent: 16 December 2009 13:16
Cc: mysql@lists.mysql.com
Subject: Re: Help saving MySQL

> It's still not too late to save MySQL and everyone that is using MySQL
> can help making a real difference.
> Please visit
> http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l
> and write a message to EC!
>
> Regards,
> Monty

Guess you don't want them to write letters like this?
http://kirkwylie.blogspot.com/2009/12/my-open-letter-to-euro pean-competiti=
on.html






With regards,

Martijn Tonies
Upscene Productions
http://www.upscene.com

Download Database Workbench for Oracle, MS SQL Server, Sybase SQL Anywhe=
re, MySQL, InterBase, NexusDB and Firebird!

Database questions? Check the forum:
http://www.databasedevelopmentforum.com


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Re: Help saving MySQL

>I think that letter actually does MySQL a favour as it points out
>
>'MySQL has been used as a pricing lever by Oracle customers'
>
>That single factor says Oracle should not be allowed to control MySQL as it
>would enable Oracle to more >easily raise or maintain high prices! For
>something to be an effective 'pricing lever' it has to be a viable
> >alternative. MySQL is a very effective pricing lever on Oracle as it is a
>mature and proven product with >excellent support.

I have to disagree with you there as the letter also mentions that
MySQL isn't a viable alternative, or actually, Oracle shouldn't have
been used for those projects in the first place.

Give a number of other open source database systems, that particular
point (MySQL) to drive the license price for Oracle down, is moot
because you could use any other freely available DBMS (even for
commercial projects!) to do the same.

>> > Please visit
>> > http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l
>> > and write a message to EC!

>> Guess you don't want them to write letters like this?
>> http://kirkwylie.blogspot.com/2009/12/my-open-letter-to-euro pean-competition.html


With regards,

Martijn Tonies
Upscene Productions
http://www.upscene.com

Download Database Workbench for Oracle, MS SQL Server, Sybase SQL
Anywhere, MySQL, InterBase, NexusDB and Firebird!

Database questions? Check the forum:
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RE: Help saving MySQL

=20
I see some of your point Martin but I think the eu would look at that lett=
er and see the author is stating 'MySQL has been used as a pricing lever'.=
That single factor should be enough for them to be very concerned by an a=
cquisition as removing an effective pricing lever from the market by acqui=
sition is anti-competitive and helps increase or maintain high prices.

I don't believe you could use any other open source database as a pricing =
lever in the same way because none are as mature or offer the levels of su=
pport that MySQL does and no other open source system can boast the perfor=
mance benefits (especially with ndbcluster) or the availability of suitabl=
y trained and certified people to support their products.=20


Regards
John
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Martijn Tonies
Sent: 17 December 2009 09:44
To: mysql@lists.mysql.com
Subject: Re: Help saving MySQL

>I think that letter actually does MySQL a favour as it points out
>
>'MySQL has been used as a pricing lever by Oracle customers'
>
>That single factor says Oracle should not be allowed to control MySQL as=
it >would enable Oracle to=A0 more >easily raise or maintain high prices=
! For >something to be an effective 'pricing lever' it has to be a viable=
> >alternative. MySQL is a very effective pricing lever on Oracle as it =
is a >mature and proven product with >excellent support.

I have to disagree with you there as the letter also mentions that MySQL=
isn't a viable alternative, or actually, Oracle shouldn't have been used=
for those projects in the first place.

Give a number of other open source database systems, that particular poi=
nt (MySQL) to drive the license price for Oracle down, is moot because yo=
u could use any other freely available DBMS (even for commercial projects=
!) to do the same.

>> > Please visit
>> > http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l
>> > and write a message to EC!

>> Guess you don't want them to write letters like this?
>> http://kirkwylie.blogspot.com/2009/12/my-open-letter-to-euro pean-compe=
tition.html


With regards,

Martijn Tonies
Upscene Productions
http://www.upscene.com

Download Database Workbench for Oracle, MS SQL Server, Sybase SQL Anywhe=
re, MySQL, InterBase, NexusDB and Firebird!

Database questions? Check the forum:
http://www.databasedevelopmentforum.com


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Re: Help saving MySQL

>I see some of your point Martin but I think the eu would look at that
>letter and see
>the author is stating 'MySQL has been used as a pricing lever'. That single
>factor
>should be enough for them to be very concerned by an acquisition as
>removing an
>effective pricing lever from the market by acquisition is anti-competitive
>and helps
>increase or maintain high prices.

Believe me, the EU (Smit Kroes) ain't exactly stupid... That single factor
only makes
a difference -if there are no alternatives- (eg: other lower prices database
systems),
and yet, there are. So I doubt if that's gonna make a difference.

>I don't believe you could use any other open source database as a pricing
>lever
> in the same way because none are as mature or offer the levels of support
> that
>MySQL does and no other open source system can boast the performance
>benefits (especially with ndbcluster) or the availability of suitably
>trained and
>certified people to support their products.

I beg to differ, heck, I also would like to aadd that some things in MySQL
are
not mature whatsoever compared to other DBMSses, being open source or not.


MySQL is gonna have one big struggle to get things straight after this...


Mind you, it would certainly be easier and probably better for business if
Oracle
didn't get MySQL, I agree with you on that ;-) But it's not about what -we-
think.




With regards,

Martijn Tonies
Upscene Productions
http://www.upscene.com

Download Database Workbench for Oracle, MS SQL Server, Sybase SQL
Anywhere, MySQL, InterBase, NexusDB and Firebird!

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Re: Help saving MySQL

On Thursday 17 December 2009, Daisley, John (Burton) wrote:
>I think that letter actually does MySQL a favour as it points out
>
>'MySQL has been used as a pricing lever by Oracle customers'
>
>That single factor says Oracle should not be allowed to control MySQL as it
> would enable Oracle to more easily raise or maintain high prices! For
> something to be an effective 'pricing lever' it has to be a viable
> alternative. MySQL is a very effective pricing lever on Oracle as it is a
> mature and proven product with excellent support.
>
>Regards
>
>John
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Martijn Tonies
>Sent: 16 December 2009 13:16
>Cc: mysql@lists.mysql.com
>Subject: Re: Help saving MySQL
>
>> It's still not too late to save MySQL and everyone that is using MySQL
>>
> > can help making a real difference.
> > Please visit
> > http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-saving-mysql.htm l
> > and write a message to EC!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Monty
>
> Guess you don't want them to write letters like this?
>http://kirkwylie.blogspot.com/2009/12/my-open-letter-to-eur opean-competitio
>n.html
>
Shesh, this guy should get a job as a spin doctor for Tiger Woods!

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Re: Help saving MySQL

John,

Another read on the subject:
http://blogs.the451group.com/opensource/2009/12/10/the-case- against-the-case-against-oracle-mysql/

Enjoy.

With regards,

Martijn Tonies
Upscene Productions
http://www.upscene.com


I see some of your point Martin but I think the eu would look at that letter
and see the author is stating 'MySQL has been used as a pricing lever'. That
single factor should be enough for them to be very concerned by an
acquisition as removing an effective pricing lever from the market by
acquisition is anti-competitive and helps increase or maintain high prices.

I don't believe you could use any other open source database as a pricing
lever in the same way because none are as mature or offer the levels of
support that MySQL does and no other open source system can boast the
performance benefits (especially with ndbcluster) or the availability of
suitably trained and certified people to support their products.


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Re: Help saving MySQL

Martjin,

I really don't like to point fingers or anything like that, but the =
simple fact Oracle owns the MySQL copyrights is by it self very =
concerning, as all our investments (time and money) could be lost over =
night, if Oracles decides to close de source or change it's licensing =
policies. Many could say "Oh, they will not do that, because they =
promised not to.", as an old professor of mine said:=20

"What isn't written, does not count! Everything else is here say, and =
there is no legal or moral grounds."

As a sailor I saw what Larry Ellisson did with the oldest and most =
prestigious match race in the sport of sailing, the America's Cup. He =
and Ernesto Bertarelli (a swiss billionaire) are fighting in the New =
York Supreme Court for over 3 years for power, and almost 160 years of =
history and sportsmanship are being destroyed. Personally, that's not =
Ellisson's fault because Bertarelli is the one who is trying to subvert =
the rules (the Deed of Gift written in 1852 and that drives the =
competition until today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deed_of_Gift), but =
this shows the kind of mentality that Ellisson works with: Until the =
last consequences. More info at: =
http://www.yachtingmagazine.com/article.jsp?ID=3D1000070610

Best Regards,
Bruno B. B. Magalh=E3es

BLACKBEAN CONSULTORIA
Rua Real Grandeza 193, Sala 210, Botafogo
Rio de Janeiro, RJ, 22281-035, Brasil

+55 (21) 9695-2263
+55 (21) 2266-0597
www.blackbean.com.br

Esta mensagem pode conter informação confidencial e/ou privilegiada. =
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On Dec 17, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Martijn Tonies wrote:

> John,
>=20
> Another read on the subject:
> =
http://blogs.the451group.com/opensource/2009/12/10/the-case- against-the-ca=
se-against-oracle-mysql/
>=20
> Enjoy.
>=20
> With regards,
>=20
> Martijn Tonies
> Upscene Productions
> http://www.upscene.com
>=20
>=20
> I see some of your point Martin but I think the eu would look at that =
letter and see the author is stating 'MySQL has been used as a pricing =
lever'. That single factor should be enough for them to be very =
concerned by an acquisition as removing an effective pricing lever from =
the market by acquisition is anti-competitive and helps increase or =
maintain high prices.
>=20
> I don't believe you could use any other open source database as a =
pricing lever in the same way because none are as mature or offer the =
levels of support that MySQL does and no other open source system can =
boast the performance benefits (especially with ndbcluster) or the =
availability of suitably trained and certified people to support their =
products.
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> MySQL General Mailing List
> For list archives: http://lists.mysql.com/mysql
> To unsubscribe: =
http://lists.mysql.com/mysql?unsub=3Dbrunomagalhaes@blackbea n.com.br
>=20


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