Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

I'm not looking to start a holy war here or re-hash the tired debate.
I just want some hard cold numbers to look at.

"Do you use a public framework or roll your own?"
http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e


And for those interested, here are the results of the last poll:

"To add the final ?> in PHP or not..."
http://www.rapidpoll.net/show.aspx?id=arc1opy

I'm relieved to know I'm in the majority (almost 2:1) who close their
opening PHP tags. :)


--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

--=-aNbZ3J88mz6OnDjM4yge
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 2010-01-26 at 16:17 -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote:

> I'm not looking to start a holy war here or re-hash the tired debate.
> I just want some hard cold numbers to look at.
>
> "Do you use a public framework or roll your own?"
> http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e
>
>
> And for those interested, here are the results of the last poll:
>
> "To add the final ?> in PHP or not..."
> http://www.rapidpoll.net/show.aspx?id=arc1opy
>
> I'm relieved to know I'm in the majority (almost 2:1) who close their
> opening PHP tags. :)
>
>


When you ay roll your own, what do you define a framework as? Do you
class it as something as big and complex as a fully-fledged MVC
framework, or would a collection of modules you've put together over
time satisfy this?

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk



--=-aNbZ3J88mz6OnDjM4yge--

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Daevid Vincent wrote:
>
> I'm not looking to start a holy war here or re-hash the tired debate.
> I just want some hard cold numbers to look at.
>
> "Do you use a public framework or roll your own?"
> http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e

I have rolled my own in the past in the time before Zend Framework
(and others) and I was quite proud of it to be honest. It was MVC
based with PHPTal templates and I used a lot of concepts I learned
from a hardcore Java developer when building it. I tweaked and refined
it to a point where I was very very happy with its performance (I used
it for my performance benchmarking as part of my presentation on APC
at OSDC Sydney 2008) and was intending to roll it out to power a
commercial project of mine. Didn't happen as I planned, however I
still have the codebase. I wrote it when I was rather new to OOP so it
has undergone quite a bit of refactoring over time.

I may open source it now that I have no major plans for it, perhaps
someone may find the code useful in some way shape or form. Includes a
rather simple ORM that ties into APC with it's variable caching
abilities (I am aware of the limitations this provides now),
reasonably simple MVC concepts and the ability to run multiple
websites & domains from a single installation. Other basics are there
like XML reading etc etc.

In hindsight, it's a little clunky now. But I was proud of it and I
still am to a point :) Personally I believe any PHP developer who
wants to be taken seriously should have written thier own framework :)

I am actually planning another project, however it will use Zend
Framework as a base. No need to re-invent the wheel, again, as fun as
it would be :)

Cheers

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

Daevid Vincent wrote:
>
> I'm not looking to start a holy war here or re-hash the tired debate.
> I just want some hard cold numbers to look at.
>
> "Do you use a public framework or roll your own?"
> http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e
>
>
> And for those interested, here are the results of the last poll:
>
> "To add the final ?> in PHP or not..."
> http://www.rapidpoll.net/show.aspx?id=arc1opy
>
> I'm relieved to know I'm in the majority (almost 2:1) who close their
> opening PHP tags. :)
>
>

I roll my own, partially from classes I wrote and partially from classes
at phpclasses.org and partially from neat stuff I find on the web.

Not sure you could call it framework though, just a loose collection of
independent classes.

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

RE: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ashley Sheridan [mailto:ash@ashleysheridan.co.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:18 PM
>
> On Tue, 2010-01-26 at 16:17 -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote:
>
> > I'm not looking to start a holy war here or re-hash the
> > tired debate. I just want some hard cold numbers to look at.
> >
> > "Do you use a public framework or roll your own?"
> > http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e
>
> When you ay roll your own, what do you define a framework as? Do you
> class it as something as big and complex as a fully-fledged MVC
> framework, or would a collection of modules you've put together over
> time satisfy this?

Well for me, it's exactly as you say. It's a collection of functions,
base.class.php (with magic __set(), __call(), __get(), debug introspection,
etc.), User.class.php (loading, saving, logging, roles, etc.),
$_SESSION['user'], gui_nav.inc.php, gui_menu.inc.php, gui_footer.inc.php,
gui_header.inc.php, db.inc.php wrapper functions, global.inc.php, and a few
other 'function' collections for time/date, XML, outputting a standardized
HTML table with rollover/headings/popups/row summary/etc, select box
(multi, blank option, ghosted options, array/sql, etc). "logic" I've
accumulated over the years of what works and what doesn't.

So at each company, I tend to start with my previous "framework" and build
upon it. Improving it. Tweeking and optimizing it not only for future use,
but also for the specific task at hand. Ripping out things that don't apply
to keep the code lean and adding routines that help make life easier too.
For example, until this current job, I would never have used a
print_table() routine that takes arrays of headings (tooltips optional),
rows, data and prints out an HTML table because I thought it was a waste of
memory and I can just loop and do it in each page. But now I am kicking
myself for not doing that in other companies. Sure it has some "gotchas",
but I've worked through pretty much every one so far and this routine kicks
some ass up and down the block. It even exports to Excel, WITH notes =
tooltips. Yeah baby!

I tried Symfony at one company and absolutely hated it. I hear good things
about Zend. But overall -- and again, I really do NOT want this to turn
into a debate or the pros/cons, I just wanted to know some percentages of
what people are REALLY using. Partially curiosity and partially to maybe
re-consider or maybe to re-enforce what I've been doing.


--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

RE: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

--=-Cbo+koD+22zlrTdLGBHD
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 2010-01-26 at 17:01 -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote:

>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ashley Sheridan [mailto:ash@ashleysheridan.co.uk]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:18 PM
> >
> > On Tue, 2010-01-26 at 16:17 -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote:
> >
> > > I'm not looking to start a holy war here or re-hash the
> > > tired debate. I just want some hard cold numbers to look at.
> > >
> > > "Do you use a public framework or roll your own?"
> > > http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e
> >
> > When you ay roll your own, what do you define a framework as? Do you
> > class it as something as big and complex as a fully-fledged MVC
> > framework, or would a collection of modules you've put together over
> > time satisfy this?
>
> Well for me, it's exactly as you say. It's a collection of functions,
> base.class.php (with magic __set(), __call(), __get(), debug introspection,
> etc.), User.class.php (loading, saving, logging, roles, etc.),
> $_SESSION['user'], gui_nav.inc.php, gui_menu.inc.php, gui_footer.inc.php,
> gui_header.inc.php, db.inc.php wrapper functions, global.inc.php, and a few
> other 'function' collections for time/date, XML, outputting a standardized
> HTML table with rollover/headings/popups/row summary/etc, select box
> (multi, blank option, ghosted options, array/sql, etc). "logic" I've
> accumulated over the years of what works and what doesn't.
>
> So at each company, I tend to start with my previous "framework" and build
> upon it. Improving it. Tweeking and optimizing it not only for future use,
> but also for the specific task at hand. Ripping out things that don't apply
> to keep the code lean and adding routines that help make life easier too.
> For example, until this current job, I would never have used a
> print_table() routine that takes arrays of headings (tooltips optional),
> rows, data and prints out an HTML table because I thought it was a waste of
> memory and I can just loop and do it in each page. But now I am kicking
> myself for not doing that in other companies. Sure it has some "gotchas",
> but I've worked through pretty much every one so far and this routine kicks
> some ass up and down the block. It even exports to Excel, WITH notes =
> tooltips. Yeah baby!
>
> I tried Symfony at one company and absolutely hated it. I hear good things
> about Zend. But overall -- and again, I really do NOT want this to turn
> into a debate or the pros/cons, I just wanted to know some percentages of
> what people are REALLY using. Partially curiosity and partially to maybe
> re-consider or maybe to re-enforce what I've been doing.
>
>


I think then from what you've said, that I guess I do use a sort of
loose framework of my own bits I've put together. I havn't had quite so
long as it sounds you've had to put them together (I'm not trying to age
bash :p ) so I've still got plenty to learn, but it does help me work
smarter when I'm putting things together.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk




--=-Cbo+koD+22zlrTdLGBHD--

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 04:17:26PM -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote:



> And for those interested, here are the results of the last poll:
>
> "To add the final ?> in PHP or not..."
> http://www.rapidpoll.net/show.aspx?id=arc1opy
>
> I'm relieved to know I'm in the majority (almost 2:1) who close their
> opening PHP tags. :)

Gosh, I can't believe so many people could be so *wrong*. ;-}

Paul

--
Paul M. Foster

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 04:17:26PM -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote:

>
> I'm not looking to start a holy war here or re-hash the tired debate.
> I just want some hard cold numbers to look at.
>
> "Do you use a public framework or roll your own?"
> http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e

I voted, but like others, my "framework" is more a collection of home
grown tools which seem to have generic applicability.

Some of this may be because I worked for many years in construction. You
get used to certain tools and the way they operate, and you prefer them.
For example, I won't use screwdrivers whose handles aren't covered with
rubber over the plastic of the handles (Stanley and Klein brands).

What I like about programming is that you get to build your own tools,
just the way you like them. ;-}

Paul

--
Paul M. Foster

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

--------------080706020003060901030701
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I read somewhere (can't find the link at the moment) that there's
probably 2.5 frameworks per PHP developer.
I know that when I started I was writing my own bits and pieces of two
frameworks. One was function based and the other was OO based.
I've since found the Yii PHP framework
and LOVE it. As someone that used to do assembly code programming on Pic
microcontrollers with very little SQL background it was a bit of work to
try and understand OO, MVC, ActiveRecord, etc.. But now that I have I'm
much faster and more efficient. There's also the added bonus that being
a Open Source project it is being worked on by lots of people and
constantly getting better.

So I'd have to vote twice. I've used my own frameworks, but now using a
proper one.

My 2c.
--
Michael Kubler
I believe in a better world. I support the Zeitgeist Movement
.


James McLean wrote:
> In hindsight, it's a little clunky now. But I was proud of it and I
> still am to a point :) Personally I believe any PHP developer who
> wants to be taken seriously should have written thier own framework :)
>

--------------080706020003060901030701--

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Michael Kubler wrote:
> I read somewhere (can't find the link at the moment) that there's probably
> 2.5 frameworks per PHP developer.

There would be a lot of truth to that, I hacked up a smaller & simpler
PHP4-centric framework back in the days when it was supported
alongside PHP5 - but the webhost wouldn't move to PHP5. So i've
written at least 2 myself :) Weather they are any good is a totally
different matter of course :D

Cheers

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:57:05 -0500, paulf@quillandmouse.com (Paul M Foster) wrote:

>On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 04:17:26PM -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm not looking to start a holy war here or re-hash the tired debate.
>> I just want some hard cold numbers to look at.
>>
>> "Do you use a public framework or roll your own?"
>> http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e
>
>I voted, but like others, my "framework" is more a collection of home
>grown tools which seem to have generic applicability.
>
>Some of this may be because I worked for many years in construction. You
>get used to certain tools and the way they operate, and you prefer them.
>For example, I won't use screwdrivers whose handles aren't covered with
>rubber over the plastic of the handles (Stanley and Klein brands).
>
>What I like about programming is that you get to build your own tools,
>just the way you like them. ;-}

I totally agree. I started programming in the 60s on the CDC 3200/3600 series, which had
an incredibly primitive version of Fortran. Then I started my own business and didn't
program again until the late 70s, when I purchased a North Star personal computer running
CPM under N*Dos. I started writing programs in assembler for instruments using
microprocessors. The first thing I did was to develop a library of useful functions to do
the sorts of things you need to do in an instrument. I started with some early
microprocessor I never actually used, then progressed through RCA1802, 8080, 6800, and
finally 80X86.

Once I had got my library working, I found it relatively simple to update it from one
microprocessor to the next. In the early 1980s I got a job as a lecturer in
instrumentation and assembly language programming at a College of Advanced Education. I
used my library to show the students how to program simple instruments, and in the process
I learned a lot about how to design programs that students could use.

In 1989 the computer labs were invaded by an accidentally lethal virus, which rendered the
(non-standard) computers useless. Because I understood assembler, I was able to
disassemble the boot sector, and work out how to remove the virus, and because I knew how
students thought I could write a program which they could use to disinfect their computers
at home. Because my library had nearly all the necessary functions I was able to write my
program (which removed that particular virus) in a couple of days. I gave it to the
students as shareware and at the end of the year I was able to resign.

Nine years later we sold the program to Computer Associates, and I retired.

I am back into programming because Microsoft (and many other software firms) insist on
writing programs which make you do what they think you ought to do, not what you want to
do. It used to be quite simple to use Mailmerge to manage a mailing list, but a couple of
updates of Windows ago it became virtually impossible. I suspect that many of these
public frameworks will do the same.

And if you have written your own tools, you can easily change them if you don't like them.


--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

Daevid Vincent wrote:
>
> I'm not looking to start a holy war here or re-hash the tired debate.
> I just want some hard cold numbers to look at.
>
> "Do you use a public framework or roll your own?"
> http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e

I'm not sure quite what to answer here. I've been using bitweaver for some time
now, but I'm not sure that I would classify it as a 'public framework' since I
also roll my own packages to go with it. It think I need a 'Tailor your own from
open source project' ?

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

I usually roll my own, unless there's a free lib / cms that does the
trick near-perfectly, and is well-written (so extensible)

About 80-90% of my tasks require me to use one of my own frameworks (i
have 2, one "simple" and one with many graphical gimmicks), and i
re-use / improve the mid-level functions & 3rd-party (free) libs.

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

Shortly ago, moving from programming in Gtk+ / C++ to PHP for the first
time in my life, I made a good study of the available rapid application
development options out there, studied a few PHP frameworks, read the
opinions on the internet about it, then initially decided to use a
framework to speed up development. After more thought I then began to
feel that such a framework could somehow lock one in into their way of
doing it, and if one wants to do something a bit different, there would
be a struggle with the framework's way of doing it, and ended up not
trusting frameworks for the purpose on hand, so at the end of all, it
was decided to start from scratch, gather object oriented and procedural
code from the internet to use as examples, then design based on that.
Teus.

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

On 27 Jan 2010, at 00:17, Daevid Vincent wrote:
> And for those interested, here are the results of the last poll:
>=20
> "To add the final ?> in PHP or not..."
> http://www.rapidpoll.net/show.aspx?id=3Darc1opy
>=20
> I'm relieved to know I'm in the majority (almost 2:1) who close their
> opening PHP tags. :)

1) When you suggest that one of the answers is "proper" and the other is =
"stupid" then you're heavily influencing the results.

2) Just because everybody does it doesn't mean it's the right thing to =
do. In fact in my experience it usually means the opposite.

-Stuart

--=20
http://stut.net/=

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

Michael A. Peters wrote:
> Daevid Vincent wrote:
>>
>> I'm not looking to start a holy war here or re-hash the tired debate.
>> I just want some hard cold numbers to look at.
>>
>> "Do you use a public framework or roll your own?"
>> http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e
>>
>>
>> And for those interested, here are the results of the last poll:
>>
>> "To add the final ?> in PHP or not..."
>> http://www.rapidpoll.net/show.aspx?id=arc1opy
>>
>> I'm relieved to know I'm in the majority (almost 2:1) who close their
>> opening PHP tags. :)
>>
>>
>
> I roll my own, partially from classes I wrote and partially from classes
> at phpclasses.org and partially from neat stuff I find on the web.
>
> Not sure you could call it framework though, just a loose collection of
> independent classes.
>

Just spent a couple days bringing that loose collection together along
with CSS templates from http://www.freecsstemplates.org/ and now
actually have my own (not quite finished) CMS.

And it looks / works a hell of a lot better than anything I've done
before (er, other than it not quite being finished ...)

Making my classes work together specifically to make a generic CMS
exposed a lot of bugs and poor design decisions in them that are now
largely fixes (er, well, we'll see ...)

Last few days have been like an epiphany for me.

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

--- On Fri, 29/1/10, Michael A. Peters wrote:=0A> Michael=
A. Peters wrote:=0A> > Daevid Vincent wrote:=0A> >>=A0 I'm not looking to =
start a holy war here or=0A> re-hash the tired debate. I just want some har=
d cold numbers=0A> to look at.=0A> >> =0A> >> "Do you use a public framewor=
k or roll your own?"=0A> >> http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e=0A> >> =0A> >>=
=0A> >> And for those interested, here are the results of=0A> the last pol=
l:=0A> >> =0A> >> "To add the final ?> in PHP or not..."=0A> >> http://www.=
rapidpoll.net/show.aspx?id=3Darc1opy I have looked at a few open sourc=
e frameworks, I have found them too hard to hack/edit/modify or incapable o=
f doing what I need=0Aso it looks like I need write my own :( ts =
____________________________________________________________ ___=
___________________=0AYahoo!7: Catch-up on your favourite Channel 7 TV show=
s easily, legally, and for free at PLUS7. www.tv.yahoo.com.au/plus7

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

What could help a developer is to plunder the available open-source
frameworks and use the loot in his own code. At times these frame-works
are well thought out, and some of their classes are clean, and can
easily be moved into other contexts. Teus.

On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 03:30 -0800, Tom Sparks wrote:
> "Do you use a public framework or roll your own?"
> http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e



--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

I converted one that was originally in classic ASP. It's terrible,
with poor design and large overhead. Used for a few projects, but now
use codeigniter. It's the easiest to adapt without many of the
restrictions of th larger frameworks.

Bastien

Sent from my iPod

On Jan 29, 2010, at 5:08 AM, "Michael A. Peters"
wrote:

> Michael A. Peters wrote:
>> Daevid Vincent wrote:
>>> I'm not looking to start a holy war here or re-hash the tired
>>> debate. I just want some hard cold numbers to look at.
>>>
>>> "Do you use a public framework or roll your own?"
>>> http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e
>>>
>>>
>>> And for those interested, here are the results of the last poll:
>>>
>>> "To add the final ?> in PHP or not..."
>>> http://www.rapidpoll.net/show.aspx?id=arc1opy
>>>
>>> I'm relieved to know I'm in the majority (almost 2:1) who close
>>> their
>>> opening PHP tags. :)
>>>
>>>
>> I roll my own, partially from classes I wrote and partially from
>> classes at phpclasses.org and partially from neat stuff I find on
>> the web.
>> Not sure you could call it framework though, just a loose
>> collection of independent classes.
>
> Just spent a couple days bringing that loose collection together
> along with CSS templates from http://www.freecsstemplates.org/ and
> now actually have my own (not quite finished) CMS.
>
> And it looks / works a hell of a lot better than anything I've done
> before (er, other than it not quite being finished ...)
>
> Making my classes work together specifically to make a generic CMS
> exposed a lot of bugs and poor design decisions in them that are now
> largely fixes (er, well, we'll see ...)
>
> Last few days have been like an epiphany for me.
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: Do you use a public framework or roll your own?

Michael A. Peters wrote:
> Michael A. Peters wrote:
>> Daevid Vincent wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not looking to start a holy war here or re-hash the tired debate.
>>> I just want some hard cold numbers to look at.
>>>
>>> "Do you use a public framework or roll your own?"
>>> http://www.rapidpoll.net/8opnt1e
>>>
>>>
>>> And for those interested, here are the results of the last poll:
>>>
>>> "To add the final ?> in PHP or not..."
>>> http://www.rapidpoll.net/show.aspx?id=arc1opy
>>>
>>> I'm relieved to know I'm in the majority (almost 2:1) who close their
>>> opening PHP tags. :)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I roll my own, partially from classes I wrote and partially from
>> classes at phpclasses.org and partially from neat stuff I find on the
>> web.
>>
>> Not sure you could call it framework though, just a loose collection
>> of independent classes.
>>
>
> Just spent a couple days bringing that loose collection together along
> with CSS templates from http://www.freecsstemplates.org/ and now
> actually have my own (not quite finished) CMS.
>
> And it looks / works a hell of a lot better than anything I've done
> before (er, other than it not quite being finished ...)
>
> Making my classes work together specifically to make a generic CMS
> exposed a lot of bugs and poor design decisions in them that are now
> largely fixes (er, well, we'll see ...)
>
> Last few days have been like an epiphany for me.

great to hear; I've done this with pretty much every project for the
last 5 years and in most cases I can apple it [1] - also find it
beneficial to see coding styles over the years and refactor previous
work - strangest thing is that as time goes on, the number of classes &
lines of code I need for each application seems to drop!

[1] "got a class for that"

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php