HTML & plain text in Outlook 2007

Hey all,

First, let me say thanks for all the advice on Magento, and
especially to Ryan who has used the beast and gave some great
advice on skinning, links to some good docs and a book just
for my designer. We'll be using and I'm looking forward to
learning it.

But anyway...

I'm doing some maintenance work on a system that sends an
email message using the multi-part boundaries to include both
a plain text version and an HTML version of an email.

I've read up on this before, but never actually done it. So
implementing the code was not a big issue, and in fact it
works perfectly when tested on my Ubuntu machine using
Thunderbird to test the HTML and Evolution to test the plain
text version. In fact, I can switch formats on both of these
and all looks great.

Enter Microsoft (Insert opening of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in
D minor to send chills up my readers' spines.)

On Outlook 2007 in HTML mode it renders, how can I put this...
half-assedly. In text mode the whole things a bust. There is
the HTML code all stuffed up at the top, boundary codes are
visible, just plain awful.

Googling around I see articles from 2007 when that version of
Outlook came out lamenting the fact that MS pulled the IE
rendering engine from it and replaced it with MS Word's
renderer to plug security holes expoitable via email.

Does anyone have any experience with HTML & plain text
multi-part messages and Outlook 2007, or any tips how I can
get this working? Still Googling, but any tips would be
greatly appreciated.

Skip
--
====================================
Skip Evans
PenguinSites.com, LLC
503 S Baldwin St, #1
Madison WI 53703
608.250.2720
http://penguinsites.com
------------------------------------
Those of you who believe in
telekinesis, raise my hand.
-- Kurt Vonnegut

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To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: HTML & plain text in Outlook 2007

--=-WC8wYdMbdTcrNeWa3nDh
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 10:44 -0600, Skip Evans wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> First, let me say thanks for all the advice on Magento, and
> especially to Ryan who has used the beast and gave some great
> advice on skinning, links to some good docs and a book just
> for my designer. We'll be using and I'm looking forward to
> learning it.
>
> But anyway...
>
> I'm doing some maintenance work on a system that sends an
> email message using the multi-part boundaries to include both
> a plain text version and an HTML version of an email.
>
> I've read up on this before, but never actually done it. So
> implementing the code was not a big issue, and in fact it
> works perfectly when tested on my Ubuntu machine using
> Thunderbird to test the HTML and Evolution to test the plain
> text version. In fact, I can switch formats on both of these
> and all looks great.
>
> Enter Microsoft (Insert opening of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in
> D minor to send chills up my readers' spines.)
>
> On Outlook 2007 in HTML mode it renders, how can I put this...
> half-assedly. In text mode the whole things a bust. There is
> the HTML code all stuffed up at the top, boundary codes are
> visible, just plain awful.
>
> Googling around I see articles from 2007 when that version of
> Outlook came out lamenting the fact that MS pulled the IE
> rendering engine from it and replaced it with MS Word's
> renderer to plug security holes expoitable via email.
>
> Does anyone have any experience with HTML & plain text
> multi-part messages and Outlook 2007, or any tips how I can
> get this working? Still Googling, but any tips would be
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Skip
> --
> ====================================
> Skip Evans
> PenguinSites.com, LLC
> 503 S Baldwin St, #1
> Madison WI 53703
> 608.250.2720
> http://penguinsites.com
> ------------------------------------
> Those of you who believe in
> telekinesis, raise my hand.
> -- Kurt Vonnegut
>


What about signing yourself up to some newsletters to see how they do
it?

Looking at the ones I get from Facebook as an example, they use the
boundary codes you mentioned, and I can't see anything particularly
special that's been added. What order are you sending the two message
parts by the way? I think the traditional way is to send the plain/text
part first, so that UA's that don't understand or support multipart
messages only use the first one. As you mentioned that you're seeing
HTML code at the top, I'd hazard a guess that you're sending the HTML
first?

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk



--=-WC8wYdMbdTcrNeWa3nDh--

Re: HTML & plain text in Outlook 2007

Ashley Sheridan wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 10:44 -0600, Skip Evans wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> First, let me say thanks for all the advice on Magento, and
>> especially to Ryan who has used the beast and gave some great
>> advice on skinning, links to some good docs and a book just
>> for my designer. We'll be using and I'm looking forward to
>> learning it.
>>
>> But anyway...
>>
>> I'm doing some maintenance work on a system that sends an
>> email message using the multi-part boundaries to include both
>> a plain text version and an HTML version of an email.
>>
>> I've read up on this before, but never actually done it. So
>> implementing the code was not a big issue, and in fact it
>> works perfectly when tested on my Ubuntu machine using
>> Thunderbird to test the HTML and Evolution to test the plain
>> text version. In fact, I can switch formats on both of these
>> and all looks great.
>>
>> Enter Microsoft (Insert opening of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in
>> D minor to send chills up my readers' spines.)
>>
>> On Outlook 2007 in HTML mode it renders, how can I put this...
>> half-assedly. In text mode the whole things a bust. There is
>> the HTML code all stuffed up at the top, boundary codes are
>> visible, just plain awful.
>>
>> Googling around I see articles from 2007 when that version of
>> Outlook came out lamenting the fact that MS pulled the IE
>> rendering engine from it and replaced it with MS Word's
>> renderer to plug security holes expoitable via email.
>>
>> Does anyone have any experience with HTML & plain text
>> multi-part messages and Outlook 2007, or any tips how I can
>> get this working? Still Googling, but any tips would be
>> greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Skip
>> --
>> ====================================
>> Skip Evans
>> PenguinSites.com, LLC
>> 503 S Baldwin St, #1
>> Madison WI 53703
>> 608.250.2720
>> http://penguinsites.com
>> ------------------------------------
>> Those of you who believe in
>> telekinesis, raise my hand.
>> -- Kurt Vonnegut
>>
>
>
> What about signing yourself up to some newsletters to see how they do
> it?
>
> Looking at the ones I get from Facebook as an example, they use the
> boundary codes you mentioned, and I can't see anything particularly
> special that's been added. What order are you sending the two message
> parts by the way? I think the traditional way is to send the plain/text
> part first, so that UA's that don't understand or support multipart
> messages only use the first one. As you mentioned that you're seeing
> HTML code at the top, I'd hazard a guess that you're sending the HTML
> first?

The problem is most likely NOT his email structure, but the fact that
Microsoft in all their lock-in, make things difficult, non standard,
monopolistic philosophy chose to switch out the IE HTML renderer (which
was getting pretty decent with IE7 and IE8) with the Office HTML
renderer... so now basic things like CSS padding of something as simple
as a

tag is not possible. You now need to use margins instead. The
full list of supported attributes / CSS can be found here:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa338201.aspx

Obviously creating HTML emails was getting too easy (like it is with
Thunderbird). Of course... I guess it could be as bad as Google
stripping out the stylesheets entirely when viewing HTML content which
forces you to put the styles on the tags themselves.

.... actually I'm not sure what's worse... at least you can use standard
styles with Google's gmail. Either way... making nice looking HTML
emails that work across Outlook, Thunderbird, Gmail, Yahoo, and Hotmail
is a pain in the ass.

Cheers,
Rob.
--
http://www.interjinn.com
Application and Templating Framework for PHP

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
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Re: HTML & plain text in Outlook 2007

--=-BK0G8EfTS7A7hqVjZBGR
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 13:44 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote:

> Ashley Sheridan wrote:
> > On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 10:44 -0600, Skip Evans wrote:
> >
> >> Hey all,
> >>
> >> First, let me say thanks for all the advice on Magento, and
> >> especially to Ryan who has used the beast and gave some great
> >> advice on skinning, links to some good docs and a book just
> >> for my designer. We'll be using and I'm looking forward to
> >> learning it.
> >>
> >> But anyway...
> >>
> >> I'm doing some maintenance work on a system that sends an
> >> email message using the multi-part boundaries to include both
> >> a plain text version and an HTML version of an email.
> >>
> >> I've read up on this before, but never actually done it. So
> >> implementing the code was not a big issue, and in fact it
> >> works perfectly when tested on my Ubuntu machine using
> >> Thunderbird to test the HTML and Evolution to test the plain
> >> text version. In fact, I can switch formats on both of these
> >> and all looks great.
> >>
> >> Enter Microsoft (Insert opening of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in
> >> D minor to send chills up my readers' spines.)
> >>
> >> On Outlook 2007 in HTML mode it renders, how can I put this...
> >> half-assedly. In text mode the whole things a bust. There is
> >> the HTML code all stuffed up at the top, boundary codes are
> >> visible, just plain awful.
> >>
> >> Googling around I see articles from 2007 when that version of
> >> Outlook came out lamenting the fact that MS pulled the IE
> >> rendering engine from it and replaced it with MS Word's
> >> renderer to plug security holes expoitable via email.
> >>
> >> Does anyone have any experience with HTML & plain text
> >> multi-part messages and Outlook 2007, or any tips how I can
> >> get this working? Still Googling, but any tips would be
> >> greatly appreciated.
> >>
> >> Skip
> >> --
> >> ====================================
> >> Skip Evans
> >> PenguinSites.com, LLC
> >> 503 S Baldwin St, #1
> >> Madison WI 53703
> >> 608.250.2720
> >> http://penguinsites.com
> >> ------------------------------------
> >> Those of you who believe in
> >> telekinesis, raise my hand.
> >> -- Kurt Vonnegut
> >>
> >
> >
> > What about signing yourself up to some newsletters to see how they do
> > it?
> >
> > Looking at the ones I get from Facebook as an example, they use the
> > boundary codes you mentioned, and I can't see anything particularly
> > special that's been added. What order are you sending the two message
> > parts by the way? I think the traditional way is to send the plain/text
> > part first, so that UA's that don't understand or support multipart
> > messages only use the first one. As you mentioned that you're seeing
> > HTML code at the top, I'd hazard a guess that you're sending the HTML
> > first?
>
> The problem is most likely NOT his email structure, but the fact that
> Microsoft in all their lock-in, make things difficult, non standard,
> monopolistic philosophy chose to switch out the IE HTML renderer (which
> was getting pretty decent with IE7 and IE8) with the Office HTML
> renderer... so now basic things like CSS padding of something as simple
> as a

tag is not possible. You now need to use margins instead. The
> full list of supported attributes / CSS can be found here:
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa338201.aspx
>
> Obviously creating HTML emails was getting too easy (like it is with
> Thunderbird). Of course... I guess it could be as bad as Google
> stripping out the stylesheets entirely when viewing HTML content which
> forces you to put the styles on the tags themselves.
>
> ... actually I'm not sure what's worse... at least you can use standard
> styles with Google's gmail. Either way... making nice looking HTML
> emails that work across Outlook, Thunderbird, Gmail, Yahoo, and Hotmail
> is a pain in the ass.
>
> Cheers,
> Rob.
> --
> http://www.interjinn.com
> Application and Templating Framework for PHP
>


If he's getting HTML output at the top of the email, I would think that
did suggest that MS Word didn't like the structure. Making HTML emails
is now such a difficult job, as the email clients rendering engines tend
to not get updated as often as browsers, and there doesn't seem to be
any effort in bringing the rendering of the email clients together.

Whenever I create these emails I try to make sure I try no to get too
creative in the design, and use not only CSS styles, but properties of
the HTML tags themselves. It means I end up writing the CSS essentially
twice and backing it up with old deprecated HTML attributes, but it
usually does the trick.

Is there any effort by some standards group that email clients could
benefit from?

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk



--=-BK0G8EfTS7A7hqVjZBGR--

Re: HTML & plain text in Outlook 2007

On 4 February 2010 16:44, Skip Evans wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> First, let me say thanks for all the advice on Magento, and especially to
> Ryan who has used the beast and gave some great advice on skinning, links=
to
> some good docs and a book just for my designer. We'll be using and I'm
> looking forward to learning it.
>
> But anyway...
>
> I'm doing some maintenance work on a system that sends an email message
> using the multi-part boundaries to include both a plain text version and =
an
> HTML version of an email.
>
> I've read up on this before, but never actually done it. So implementing =
the
> code was not a big issue, and in fact it works perfectly when tested on m=
y
> Ubuntu machine using Thunderbird to test the HTML and Evolution to test t=
he
> plain text version. In fact, I can switch formats on both of these and al=
l
> looks great.
>
> Enter Microsoft (Insert opening of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor to
> send chills up my readers' spines.)
>
> On Outlook 2007 in HTML mode it renders, how can I put this... half-assed=
ly.
> In text mode the whole things a bust. There is the HTML code all stuffed =
up
> at the top, boundary codes are visible, just plain awful.
>
> Googling around I see articles from 2007 when that version of Outlook cam=
e
> out lamenting the fact that MS pulled the IE rendering engine from it and
> replaced it with MS Word's renderer to plug security holes expoitable via
> email.
>
> Does anyone have any experience with HTML & plain text multi-part message=
s
> and Outlook 2007, or any tips how I can get this working? Still Googling,
> but any tips would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Skip
> --
> ==================== =====
============
> Skip Evans
> PenguinSites.com, LLC
> 503 S Baldwin St, #1
> Madison WI 53703
> 608.250.2720
> http://penguinsites.com
> ------------------------------------
> Those of you who believe in
> telekinesis, raise my hand.
>  -- Kurt Vonnegut
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

I create HTML.Mime based emails in PHP with a plain text part which is
basically a cop out saying that they should upgrade.

The HTML part is a fax form. They print it out, add some stickers
relating to work carried out and then fax it back (or email it as a
TIFF or PDF if they have the skills/tech to do that).

I use Outlook 2003 (work) and GMail via Chrome (personal).

The form includes embedded images (essentially their logo as the forms
are passed to their clients) and have a PDF attached ( a report from
our systems about the email they are receiving).

All fairly simple.

1 - Plain Text - (Please upgrade)
2 - Alternative HTML
3 - Embedded images
4 - Attachment

For this, I use RMail from phpguru.org (previously known as
html_mime_mail5) http://www.phpguru.org/static/Rmail

The HTML I used contains limited CSS and is table based.

I initially did it "properly", or so I thought.

I'd used IE7/FireFox/Safari/Opera as a test of a proper HTML page with
CSS to produce a nice looking form. Scaled nicely, limited shrink,
etc.

Looked OK in Outlook 2003 too!

But when I sent them for approval to the line manager, who uses
Outlook 2007, well, let's just say he didn't understand the form at
all!

Even when I redid it with tables, I'd used , ,
(proper HTML at least). In O2K7? It renders in order - header, footer,
body. Great!

So, the HTML I ended up with REALLY looks like something from when I
was first learning HTML (I just worked it out as being 13 years ago!).

So, yes. The code is horribly old fashioned. But it works.


--=20
-----
Richard Quadling
"Standing on the shoulders of some very clever giants!"
EE : http://www.experts-exchange.com/M_248814.html
EE4Free : http://www.experts-exchange.com/becomeAnExpert.jsp
Zend Certified Engineer : http://zend.com/zce.php?c=3DZEND002498&r=3D213474=
731
ZOPA : http://uk.zopa.com/member/RQuadling

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Re: HTML & plain text in Outlook 2007

Ire ently needed to do this for a client as well. I took their word
doc and converted it to HTML with open office. This created a template
that I just do some search and replace to fill in the criteria.

This has worked very well with outlook and hotmail and gmail.

Not sure if it will fit your needs, but it could be worth a try.

Bastien

Sent from my iPod

On Feb 5, 2010, at 5:32 AM, Richard Quadling
wrote:

> On 4 February 2010 16:44, Skip Evans wrote:
>> Hey all,
>>
>> First, let me say thanks for all the advice on Magento, and
>> especially to
>> Ryan who has used the beast and gave some great advice on skinning,
>> links to
>> some good docs and a book just for my designer. We'll be using and
>> I'm
>> looking forward to learning it.
>>
>> But anyway...
>>
>> I'm doing some maintenance work on a system that sends an email
>> message
>> using the multi-part boundaries to include both a plain text
>> version and an
>> HTML version of an email.
>>
>> I've read up on this before, but never actually done it. So
>> implementing the
>> code was not a big issue, and in fact it works perfectly when
>> tested on my
>> Ubuntu machine using Thunderbird to test the HTML and Evolution to
>> test the
>> plain text version. In fact, I can switch formats on both of these
>> and all
>> looks great.
>>
>> Enter Microsoft (Insert opening of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D
>> minor to
>> send chills up my readers' spines.)
>>
>> On Outlook 2007 in HTML mode it renders, how can I put this... half-
>> assedly.
>> In text mode the whole things a bust. There is the HTML code all
>> stuffed up
>> at the top, boundary codes are visible, just plain awful.
>>
>> Googling around I see articles from 2007 when that version of
>> Outlook came
>> out lamenting the fact that MS pulled the IE rendering engine from
>> it and
>> replaced it with MS Word's renderer to plug security holes
>> expoitable via
>> email.
>>
>> Does anyone have any experience with HTML & plain text multi-part
>> messages
>> and Outlook 2007, or any tips how I can get this working? Still
>> Googling,
>> but any tips would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Skip
>> --
>> ====================================
>> Skip Evans
>> PenguinSites.com, LLC
>> 503 S Baldwin St, #1
>> Madison WI 53703
>> 608.250.2720
>> http://penguinsites.com
>> ------------------------------------
>> Those of you who believe in
>> telekinesis, raise my hand.
>> -- Kurt Vonnegut
>>
>> --
>> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>
>>
>
> I create HTML.Mime based emails in PHP with a plain text part which is
> basically a cop out saying that they should upgrade.
>
> The HTML part is a fax form. They print it out, add some stickers
> relating to work carried out and then fax it back (or email it as a
> TIFF or PDF if they have the skills/tech to do that).
>
> I use Outlook 2003 (work) and GMail via Chrome (personal).
>
> The form includes embedded images (essentially their logo as the forms
> are passed to their clients) and have a PDF attached ( a report from
> our systems about the email they are receiving).
>
> All fairly simple.
>
> 1 - Plain Text - (Please upgrade)
> 2 - Alternative HTML
> 3 - Embedded images
> 4 - Attachment
>
> For this, I use RMail from phpguru.org (previously known as
> html_mime_mail5) http://www.phpguru.org/static/Rmail
>
> The HTML I used contains limited CSS and is table based.
>
> I initially did it "properly", or so I thought.
>
> I'd used IE7/FireFox/Safari/Opera as a test of a proper HTML page with
> CSS to produce a nice looking form. Scaled nicely, limited shrink,
> etc.
>
> Looked OK in Outlook 2003 too!
>
> But when I sent them for approval to the line manager, who uses
> Outlook 2007, well, let's just say he didn't understand the form at
> all!
>
> Even when I redid it with tables, I'd used , ,
> (proper HTML at least). In O2K7? It renders in order - header, footer,
> body. Great!
>
> So, the HTML I ended up with REALLY looks like something from when I
> was first learning HTML (I just worked it out as being 13 years ago!).
>
> So, yes. The code is horribly old fashioned. But it works.
>
>
> --
> -----
> Richard Quadling
> "Standing on the shoulders of some very clever giants!"
> EE : http://www.experts-exchange.com/M_248814.html
> EE4Free : http://www.experts-exchange.com/becomeAnExpert.jsp
> Zend Certified Engineer : http://zend.com/zce.php?c=ZEND002498&r=213474731
> ZOPA : http://uk.zopa.com/member/RQuadling
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>

--
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Re: HTML & plain text in Outlook 2007

--=-7DigHnZsd9qyBLgjj0VV
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 08:03 -0500, Phpster wrote:

> Ire ently needed to do this for a client as well. I took their word
> doc and converted it to HTML with open office. This created a template
> that I just do some search and replace to fill in the criteria.
>
> This has worked very well with outlook and hotmail and gmail.
>
> Not sure if it will fit your needs, but it could be worth a try.
>
> Bastien
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Feb 5, 2010, at 5:32 AM, Richard Quadling
> wrote:
>
> > On 4 February 2010 16:44, Skip Evans wrote:
> >> Hey all,
> >>
> >> First, let me say thanks for all the advice on Magento, and
> >> especially to
> >> Ryan who has used the beast and gave some great advice on skinning,
> >> links to
> >> some good docs and a book just for my designer. We'll be using and
> >> I'm
> >> looking forward to learning it.
> >>
> >> But anyway...
> >>
> >> I'm doing some maintenance work on a system that sends an email
> >> message
> >> using the multi-part boundaries to include both a plain text
> >> version and an
> >> HTML version of an email.
> >>
> >> I've read up on this before, but never actually done it. So
> >> implementing the
> >> code was not a big issue, and in fact it works perfectly when
> >> tested on my
> >> Ubuntu machine using Thunderbird to test the HTML and Evolution to
> >> test the
> >> plain text version. In fact, I can switch formats on both of these
> >> and all
> >> looks great.
> >>
> >> Enter Microsoft (Insert opening of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D
> >> minor to
> >> send chills up my readers' spines.)
> >>
> >> On Outlook 2007 in HTML mode it renders, how can I put this... half-
> >> assedly.
> >> In text mode the whole things a bust. There is the HTML code all
> >> stuffed up
> >> at the top, boundary codes are visible, just plain awful.
> >>
> >> Googling around I see articles from 2007 when that version of
> >> Outlook came
> >> out lamenting the fact that MS pulled the IE rendering engine from
> >> it and
> >> replaced it with MS Word's renderer to plug security holes
> >> expoitable via
> >> email.
> >>
> >> Does anyone have any experience with HTML & plain text multi-part
> >> messages
> >> and Outlook 2007, or any tips how I can get this working? Still
> >> Googling,
> >> but any tips would be greatly appreciated.
> >>
> >> Skip
> >> --
> >> ====================================
> >> Skip Evans
> >> PenguinSites.com, LLC
> >> 503 S Baldwin St, #1
> >> Madison WI 53703
> >> 608.250.2720
> >> http://penguinsites.com
> >> ------------------------------------
> >> Those of you who believe in
> >> telekinesis, raise my hand.
> >> -- Kurt Vonnegut
> >>
> >> --
> >> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> >> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I create HTML.Mime based emails in PHP with a plain text part which is
> > basically a cop out saying that they should upgrade.
> >
> > The HTML part is a fax form. They print it out, add some stickers
> > relating to work carried out and then fax it back (or email it as a
> > TIFF or PDF if they have the skills/tech to do that).
> >
> > I use Outlook 2003 (work) and GMail via Chrome (personal).
> >
> > The form includes embedded images (essentially their logo as the forms
> > are passed to their clients) and have a PDF attached ( a report from
> > our systems about the email they are receiving).
> >
> > All fairly simple.
> >
> > 1 - Plain Text - (Please upgrade)
> > 2 - Alternative HTML
> > 3 - Embedded images
> > 4 - Attachment
> >
> > For this, I use RMail from phpguru.org (previously known as
> > html_mime_mail5) http://www.phpguru.org/static/Rmail
> >
> > The HTML I used contains limited CSS and is table based.
> >
> > I initially did it "properly", or so I thought.
> >
> > I'd used IE7/FireFox/Safari/Opera as a test of a proper HTML page with
> > CSS to produce a nice looking form. Scaled nicely, limited shrink,
> > etc.
> >
> > Looked OK in Outlook 2003 too!
> >
> > But when I sent them for approval to the line manager, who uses
> > Outlook 2007, well, let's just say he didn't understand the form at
> > all!
> >
> > Even when I redid it with tables, I'd used , ,
> > (proper HTML at least). In O2K7? It renders in order - header, footer,
> > body. Great!
> >
> > So, the HTML I ended up with REALLY looks like something from when I
> > was first learning HTML (I just worked it out as being 13 years ago!).
> >
> > So, yes. The code is horribly old fashioned. But it works.
> >
> >
> > --
> > -----
> > Richard Quadling
> > "Standing on the shoulders of some very clever giants!"
> > EE : http://www.experts-exchange.com/M_248814.html
> > EE4Free : http://www.experts-exchange.com/becomeAnExpert.jsp
> > Zend Certified Engineer : http://zend.com/zce.php?c=ZEND002498&r=213474731
> > ZOPA : http://uk.zopa.com/member/RQuadling
> >
> > --
> > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
>


It's the testing part that takes the time though. You've got the email
clients that are only available on Windows, the ones that are only
available on Macs, those that are only around on Linux, and then those
that are only accessible online. There are companies that test emails
for you and send you back screenshots of your emails, but to my
knowledge, they all charge for this service.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk



--=-7DigHnZsd9qyBLgjj0VV--

Re: HTML & plain text in Outlook 2007

Ashley Sheridan wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 13:44 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote:
>>>
>>> What about signing yourself up to some newsletters to see how they do
>>> it?
>>>
>>> Looking at the ones I get from Facebook as an example, they use the
>>> boundary codes you mentioned, and I can't see anything particularly
>>> special that's been added. What order are you sending the two message
>>> parts by the way? I think the traditional way is to send the plain/text
>>> part first, so that UA's that don't understand or support multipart
>>> messages only use the first one. As you mentioned that you're seeing
>>> HTML code at the top, I'd hazard a guess that you're sending the HTML
>>> first?
>> The problem is most likely NOT his email structure, but the fact that
>> Microsoft in all their lock-in, make things difficult, non standard,
>> monopolistic philosophy chose to switch out the IE HTML renderer (which
>> was getting pretty decent with IE7 and IE8) with the Office HTML
>> renderer... so now basic things like CSS padding of something as simple
>> as a

tag is not possible. You now need to use margins instead. The
>> full list of supported attributes / CSS can be found here:
>>
>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa338201.aspx
>>
>> Obviously creating HTML emails was getting too easy (like it is with
>> Thunderbird). Of course... I guess it could be as bad as Google
>> stripping out the stylesheets entirely when viewing HTML content which
>> forces you to put the styles on the tags themselves.
>>
>> ... actually I'm not sure what's worse... at least you can use standard
>> styles with Google's gmail. Either way... making nice looking HTML
>> emails that work across Outlook, Thunderbird, Gmail, Yahoo, and Hotmail
>> is a pain in the ass.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Rob.
>
>
> If he's getting HTML output at the top of the email, I would think that
> did suggest that MS Word didn't like the structure. Making HTML emails
> is now such a difficult job, as the email clients rendering engines tend
> to not get updated as often as browsers, and there doesn't seem to be
> any effort in bringing the rendering of the email clients together.
>
> Whenever I create these emails I try to make sure I try no to get too
> creative in the design, and use not only CSS styles, but properties of
> the HTML tags themselves. It means I end up writing the CSS essentially
> twice and backing it up with old deprecated HTML attributes, but it
> usually does the trick.
>
> Is there any effort by some standards group that email clients could
> benefit from?

I think I skipped over some relevant information in the original post :)

Still... as you've said... email HTML sucks... and MS made it worse.

Cheers,
Rob.
--
http://www.interjinn.com
Application and Templating Framework for PHP

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Re: HTML & plain text in Outlook 2007

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the info on this. Sorry for the late reply, but
I got sidetracked writing the module that will send out all
these nasty emails.

I do have the text going on top, and I think I said, looks
perfect in Evolution and Thunderbird in both text and HTML.

I also read about MS ripping out the IE renderer and going
back in time basically.

I thought the solution of converting a Word document into HTML
with open office is interesting. I'll run that by the client
and test it out.

Bottom line is, HTML is just a total pain, and yes, the email
the client created in HTML using the most update to date CSS
and HTML!

Thanks!

Skip

Robert Cummings wrote:
> Ashley Sheridan wrote:
>> On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 13:44 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What about signing yourself up to some newsletters to see how they do
>>>> it?
>>>>
>>>> Looking at the ones I get from Facebook as an example, they use the
>>>> boundary codes you mentioned, and I can't see anything particularly
>>>> special that's been added. What order are you sending the two message
>>>> parts by the way? I think the traditional way is to send the plain/text
>>>> part first, so that UA's that don't understand or support multipart
>>>> messages only use the first one. As you mentioned that you're seeing
>>>> HTML code at the top, I'd hazard a guess that you're sending the HTML
>>>> first?
>>> The problem is most likely NOT his email structure, but the fact that
>>> Microsoft in all their lock-in, make things difficult, non standard,
>>> monopolistic philosophy chose to switch out the IE HTML renderer
>>> (which was getting pretty decent with IE7 and IE8) with the Office
>>> HTML renderer... so now basic things like CSS padding of something as
>>> simple as a

tag is not possible. You now need to use margins
>>> instead. The full list of supported attributes / CSS can be found here:
>>>
>>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa338201.aspx
>>>
>>> Obviously creating HTML emails was getting too easy (like it is with
>>> Thunderbird). Of course... I guess it could be as bad as Google
>>> stripping out the stylesheets entirely when viewing HTML content
>>> which forces you to put the styles on the tags themselves.
>>>
>>> ... actually I'm not sure what's worse... at least you can use
>>> standard styles with Google's gmail. Either way... making nice
>>> looking HTML emails that work across Outlook, Thunderbird, Gmail,
>>> Yahoo, and Hotmail is a pain in the ass.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Rob.
>>
>>
>> If he's getting HTML output at the top of the email, I would think that
>> did suggest that MS Word didn't like the structure. Making HTML emails
>> is now such a difficult job, as the email clients rendering engines tend
>> to not get updated as often as browsers, and there doesn't seem to be
>> any effort in bringing the rendering of the email clients together.
>>
>> Whenever I create these emails I try to make sure I try no to get too
>> creative in the design, and use not only CSS styles, but properties of
>> the HTML tags themselves. It means I end up writing the CSS essentially
>> twice and backing it up with old deprecated HTML attributes, but it
>> usually does the trick.
>>
>> Is there any effort by some standards group that email clients could
>> benefit from?
>
> I think I skipped over some relevant information in the original post :)
>
> Still... as you've said... email HTML sucks... and MS made it worse.
>
> Cheers,
> Rob.

--
====================================
Skip Evans
PenguinSites.com, LLC
503 S Baldwin St, #1
Madison WI 53703
608.250.2720
http://penguinsites.com
------------------------------------
Those of you who believe in
telekinesis, raise my hand.
-- Kurt Vonnegut

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To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: HTML & plain text in Outlook 2007

--=-zUnBk21utv6kWAdWsDHt
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 19:03 -0600, Skip Evans wrote:

> Hey Guys,
>
> Thanks for all the info on this. Sorry for the late reply, but
> I got sidetracked writing the module that will send out all
> these nasty emails.
>
> I do have the text going on top, and I think I said, looks
> perfect in Evolution and Thunderbird in both text and HTML.
>
> I also read about MS ripping out the IE renderer and going
> back in time basically.
>
> I thought the solution of converting a Word document into HTML
> with open office is interesting. I'll run that by the client
> and test it out.
>
> Bottom line is, HTML is just a total pain, and yes, the email
> the client created in HTML using the most update to date CSS
> and HTML!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Skip
>
> Robert Cummings wrote:
> > Ashley Sheridan wrote:
> >> On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 13:44 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> What about signing yourself up to some newsletters to see how they do
> >>>> it?
> >>>>
> >>>> Looking at the ones I get from Facebook as an example, they use the
> >>>> boundary codes you mentioned, and I can't see anything particularly
> >>>> special that's been added. What order are you sending the two message
> >>>> parts by the way? I think the traditional way is to send the plain/text
> >>>> part first, so that UA's that don't understand or support multipart
> >>>> messages only use the first one. As you mentioned that you're seeing
> >>>> HTML code at the top, I'd hazard a guess that you're sending the HTML
> >>>> first?
> >>> The problem is most likely NOT his email structure, but the fact that
> >>> Microsoft in all their lock-in, make things difficult, non standard,
> >>> monopolistic philosophy chose to switch out the IE HTML renderer
> >>> (which was getting pretty decent with IE7 and IE8) with the Office
> >>> HTML renderer... so now basic things like CSS padding of something as
> >>> simple as a

tag is not possible. You now need to use margins
> >>> instead. The full list of supported attributes / CSS can be found here:
> >>>
> >>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa338201.aspx
> >>>
> >>> Obviously creating HTML emails was getting too easy (like it is with
> >>> Thunderbird). Of course... I guess it could be as bad as Google
> >>> stripping out the stylesheets entirely when viewing HTML content
> >>> which forces you to put the styles on the tags themselves.
> >>>
> >>> ... actually I'm not sure what's worse... at least you can use
> >>> standard styles with Google's gmail. Either way... making nice
> >>> looking HTML emails that work across Outlook, Thunderbird, Gmail,
> >>> Yahoo, and Hotmail is a pain in the ass.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Rob.
> >>
> >>
> >> If he's getting HTML output at the top of the email, I would think that
> >> did suggest that MS Word didn't like the structure. Making HTML emails
> >> is now such a difficult job, as the email clients rendering engines tend
> >> to not get updated as often as browsers, and there doesn't seem to be
> >> any effort in bringing the rendering of the email clients together.
> >>
> >> Whenever I create these emails I try to make sure I try no to get too
> >> creative in the design, and use not only CSS styles, but properties of
> >> the HTML tags themselves. It means I end up writing the CSS essentially
> >> twice and backing it up with old deprecated HTML attributes, but it
> >> usually does the trick.
> >>
> >> Is there any effort by some standards group that email clients could
> >> benefit from?
> >
> > I think I skipped over some relevant information in the original post :)
> >
> > Still... as you've said... email HTML sucks... and MS made it worse.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Rob.
>
> --
> ====================================
> Skip Evans
> PenguinSites.com, LLC
> 503 S Baldwin St, #1
> Madison WI 53703
> 608.250.2720
> http://penguinsites.com
> ------------------------------------
> Those of you who believe in
> telekinesis, raise my hand.
> -- Kurt Vonnegut
>


That last reason could be why your email is failing! HTML email is the
one place where it is actually better to code "the old way" with tables
for markup, tags, and very little (if any) CSS. If you do use any
CSS, it's best left inline as well, as some email clients strip out
anything within the tags of your email.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk



--=-zUnBk21utv6kWAdWsDHt--