how to do cloud computing with php

Hi..

As a way to take a few steps back from the kinda heated "when will php
grow up and support threading" thread, i'm requesting you people list
how you scale from 1 server to many servers; what's called cloud
computing.

In particular, i'm interested in how to set up an application that
deals with great amounts of input from many 3rd-party servers, and say
a million concurrent viewers who need html calculated from those input
streams.

So this goes beyond 1 mysql server, and beyond 1 php server.

Let's hear it, coz quite frankly i have my doubts about php's ability
to scale to cloud computing.

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Re: how to do cloud computing with php

On 03/24/2010 05:25 PM, Rene Veerman wrote:
> Hi..
>
> As a way to take a few steps back from the kinda heated "when will php
> grow up and support threading" thread, i'm requesting you people list
> how you scale from 1 server to many servers; what's called cloud
> computing.
>
> In particular, i'm interested in how to set up an application that
> deals with great amounts of input from many 3rd-party servers, and say
> a million concurrent viewers who need html calculated from those input
> streams.
>
> So this goes beyond 1 mysql server, and beyond 1 php server.
>
> Let's hear it, coz quite frankly i have my doubts about php's ability
> to scale to cloud computing.
>

Isn't multiple php processing servers possible using FastCGI protocol ?

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Nilesh Govindarajan
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www.itech7.com

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Re: how to do cloud computing with php

I have already answer that on the other thread, but anyway
http://nanoserv.si.kz/ , or use the web webserver made with it
http://nanoweb.si.kz/. And thinking about your 'requirements', avoid
mysql from that equation. There are other faster alternatives in the
SQL world. Or even better think about an alternative like mongodb that
scale really well.

2010/3/24 Rene Veerman :
> Hi..
>
> As a way to take a few steps back from the kinda heated "when will php
> grow up and support threading" thread, i'm requesting you people list
> how you scale from 1 server to many servers; what's called cloud
> computing.
>
> In particular, i'm interested in how to set up an application that
> deals with great amounts of input from many 3rd-party servers, and say
> a million concurrent viewers who need html calculated from those input
> streams.
>
> So this goes beyond 1 mysql server, and beyond 1 php server.
>
> Let's hear it, coz quite frankly i have my doubts about php's ability
> to scale to cloud computing.
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

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Re: how to do cloud computing with php

Rene Veerman wrote:

> Hi..
>=20
> As a way to take a few steps back from the kinda heated "when will ph=
p
> grow up and support threading" thread, i'm requesting you people list=

> how you scale from 1 server to many servers; what's called cloud
> computing.

Scaling to N boxes is first a matter of distributing the load.=20
Personally I like to use LVS for that - if you're aiming really high,
maybe supersparrow. =20
Second you will have to look at how to distribute the data - usually th=
e
answer is segmentation or replication, with a few different twists.=20=

To reduce network traffic and response times, cacheing comes into it in=

many places.=20


--=20
Per Jessen, Zürich (14.1°C)


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Re: how to do cloud computing with php

On 03/24/2010 05:31 PM, jose javier parra sanchez wrote:
> I have already answer that on the other thread, but anyway
> http://nanoserv.si.kz/ , or use the web webserver made with it
> http://nanoweb.si.kz/. And thinking about your 'requirements', avoid
> mysql from that equation. There are other faster alternatives in the
> SQL world. Or even better think about an alternative like mongodb that
> scale really well.
>
> 2010/3/24 Rene Veerman:
>> Hi..
>>
>> As a way to take a few steps back from the kinda heated "when will php
>> grow up and support threading" thread, i'm requesting you people list
>> how you scale from 1 server to many servers; what's called cloud
>> computing.
>>
>> In particular, i'm interested in how to set up an application that
>> deals with great amounts of input from many 3rd-party servers, and say
>> a million concurrent viewers who need html calculated from those input
>> streams.
>>
>> So this goes beyond 1 mysql server, and beyond 1 php server.
>>
>> Let's hear it, coz quite frankly i have my doubts about php's ability
>> to scale to cloud computing.
>>
>> --
>> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>
>>
>

Even recent PostgreSQL offer much more better speed and performance as
compared to MySQL. No I'm not joking about it or telling this just by
reading articles on the web.

Its my experience. I moved my drupal site from MySQL to PostgreSQL (all
latest) to see a huge performance boost. :)

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Nilesh Govindarajan
Site & Server Administrator
www.itech7.com

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Re: how to do cloud computing with php

Rene Veerman wrote:
> Hi..
>
> As a way to take a few steps back from the kinda heated "when will php
> grow up and support threading" thread, i'm requesting you people list
> how you scale from 1 server to many servers; what's called cloud
> computing.
>
> In particular, i'm interested in how to set up an application that
> deals with great amounts of input from many 3rd-party servers, and say
> a million concurrent viewers who need html calculated from those input
> streams.
>
> So this goes beyond 1 mysql server, and beyond 1 php server.
>
> Let's hear it, coz quite frankly i have my doubts about php's ability
> to scale to cloud computing.

Multiple PHP boxes with local databases carrying the slowly changing data, only
accessing the main database 'cloud' for real time data. Many financial
institutions around the world use this arrangement without any problems. The
data is replicated around the network and locally served up for each branch of
the tree. You don't need all one million users looking to one point on the
network?

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-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

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Re: how to do cloud computing with php

On 24 Mar 2010, at 11:55, Rene Veerman wrote:
> As a way to take a few steps back from the kinda heated "when will php
> grow up and support threading" thread, i'm requesting you people list
> how you scale from 1 server to many servers; what's called cloud
> computing.
>=20
> In particular, i'm interested in how to set up an application that
> deals with great amounts of input from many 3rd-party servers, and say
> a million concurrent viewers who need html calculated from those input
> streams.
>=20
> So this goes beyond 1 mysql server, and beyond 1 php server.
>=20
> Let's hear it, coz quite frankly i have my doubts about php's ability
> to scale to cloud computing.

The way you're using the term cloud computing differs from the generally =
accepted definition, which is "delivering hosted services over the =
Internet". What you're talking about is scaling an application beyond a =
single server which is a different, albeit usually related, beast.

There is no single or "right" way to implement a scalable web =
application but there are some key principles. The main principle that =
enables maintainable scalable systems is layers. If you build your =
application in a layered fashion, such that no layer knows how the other =
layers work, you can modify any of the layers in any way you need to =
when scalability issues arise.

Your hardware setup will depend on the application and usage patterns, =
but some combination of load balancers, application servers and database =
servers is pretty normal. You may also find servers dedicated to caching =
and offline processing useful to achieve your goals.

Architecture-wise you'll want to make extensive use of caching to =
lighten the load on the database, and you'll want to make sure that you =
perform no processing during a request that could wait to be processed =
offline.

The main site I maintain has two load balancers at the front running =
nginx, three application servers running FastCGI PHP processes, two =
database servers in a master/slave arrangement, a separate static server =
and two offline processing servers. The application servers all have =
memcached instances for caching purposes and each runs its own instance =
of Sphinx to localise the search load.

That setup, combined with a shared-nothing approach to the application =
design means I have a highly scalable system. To add capacity I simple =
need to add servers in whichever group is having issues. Due to the =
nature of the application I'm yet to come close to having issues with =
the number of concurrent writes to the database, but when I do I already =
plan to add another master server such that I have a master/master/slave =
setup.

Unless you do start getting the sort of traffic that Facebook are =
blessed with you will be able to get a long way with this type of =
arrangement. And with a modular, layered approach to the application =
design I don't see any reason why I can't handle any scalability issue =
that's likely to come along with a minimum of fuss and cost.

The key think to remember is that scalability is not the same as =
performance. They're barely even related. What, specifically, makes you =
doubt PHP's ability to scale?

-Stuart

--=20
http://stut.net/


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Re: how to do cloud computing with php

--00148531b7e50fa84e04828bb233
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Rene Veerman wrote:

> Hi..
>
> As a way to take a few steps back from the kinda heated "when will php
> grow up and support threading" thread, i'm requesting you people list
> how you scale from 1 server to many servers; what's called cloud
> computing.
>

Interesting definition of cloud computing.

There is a book called "Building Scalable Web Sites" by Cal Henderson.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wIWU94zKEtYC&dq=Building+ Scalable+Web+Sites&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=zg 2qS7m1G9WO_AbL7_x1&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ve d=0CBcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I recommend you take a look at Chapter 9: Scaling Web Applications,
particularly the following sections:

The Scaling Myth (particularly the subsection "What is Scalability?")

Scaling PHP
I quote "As PHP has gained more acceptance as a serious language, there's
still been a significant camp of people claiming that it can't scale.
Clearly, this isn't the case." page 212.

It would be very helpful if you tell us what you've read, tried or
considered?

--00148531b7e50fa84e04828bb233--

Re: how to do cloud computing with php

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Yousif Masoud wr=
ote:
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Rene Veerman wrote=
:
>>
>> Hi..
>>
>> As a way to take a few steps back from the kinda heated "when will php
>> grow up and support threading" thread, i'm requesting you people list
>> how you scale from 1 server to many servers; what's called cloud
>> computing.
>
> Interesting definition of cloud computing.
>
> There is a book called "Building Scalable Web Sites" by Cal Henderson.
>
> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3DwIWU94zKEtYC&dq=3DBuild ing+Scalable+=
Web+Sites&printsec=3Dfrontcover&source=3Dbn&hl=3Den&ei=3Dzg2 qS7m1G9WO_AbL7_=
x1&sa=3DX&oi=3Dbook_result&ct=3Dresult&resnum=3D4&ved=3D0CBc Q6AEwAw#v=3Done=
page&q=3D&f=3Dfalse
>
> I recommend you take a look at Chapter 9: Scaling Web Applications,
> particularly the following sections:
>
> The Scaling Myth (particularly the subsection "What is Scalability?")
>
> Scaling PHP
> I quote "As PHP has gained more acceptance as a serious language, there's
> still been a significant camp of people claiming that it can't scale.
> =A0Clearly, this isn't the case." page 212.

ok, i'm gonna take a look at that book then.

>
> It would be very helpful if you tell us what you've read, tried or
> considered?

ok.

i'm knowledgeable about coding for 1 to 2 machines; 1 php, 1 (my)sql.
i can cache output/results at various levels for re-use.

my main concern atm is my own cms (50-100k lines of my own); it's
graphics-heavy, does fairly complicated db based logic, and if it ever
is to be used for a site like facebook, it'll get large dataflows that
have to be distributed over the servers used to generate html and
accessoiries for end-users.
i've built a layer into it that caches the output of oft-used pages
(like articles and their comments).
but adding many comments / minute to an article would result in quite
a bit of overhead, to update the html for that page and distribute it
(fast enough) to the relevant servers.

i'm worried about php's single-threaded nature; each request has to
fetch html updated in the last few seconds, or generate it from a list
of comments. that's also a big query from a big table for every
end-user.. :(
i'd rather keep them comments for an article in shared memory.....

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