replying to list (I give up)

I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most people
are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.

It just doesn't make sense to me, why be on the mailing list if it
hinders having a group discussion without having to jump through
hurdles. It also defeats the purpose of being on a group list if
replying sends the reply to the OP.

Every message sent to this list, simply hitting reply should send back
to this list and not the OP.
--
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David M.


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Re: replying to list (I give up)

The reply-to header should be changed to php-general@lists.php.net.
I experience many dev list that are configured this way.
So, in my gmail i change my habit to press "a" instead of "r".

Shiplu Mokaddim
My talks, http://talk.cmyweb.net
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Re: replying to list (I give up)

Why change the way that has been around for years and adopted by
multiple e-mail lists?
It feels like it's more problem to change the way for thousands of
users just to satisfy a couple of few.

**********************************************
Hans Åhlin
Tel: +46761488019
http://www.kronan-net.com/
irc://irc.freenode.net:6667 - TheCoin
**********************************************



2010/4/21 David McGlone :
> I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
> pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
> the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most people
> are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.
>
> It just doesn't make sense to me, why be on the mailing list if it
> hinders having a group discussion without having to jump through
> hurdles. It also defeats the purpose of being on a group list if
> replying sends the reply to the OP.
>
> Every message sent to this list, simply hitting reply should send back
> to this list and not the OP.
> --
> Blessings,
> David M.
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

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Re: replying to list (I give up)

David McGlone wrote:

> I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I
> can't pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replie=
s
> go to the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or
> most people are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.

Did you try "Reply-All" ? That usually does it for me.

> It just doesn't make sense to me, why be on the mailing list if it
> hinders having a group discussion without having to jump through
> hurdles. It also defeats the purpose of being on a group list if
> replying sends the reply to the OP.

Reply-All.=20



--=20
Per Jessen, Zürich (16.2°C)


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Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 14:27, David McGlone wrote:
> I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
> pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
> the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most people
> are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.

Then get a better email client if yours doesn't support "reply to all"
or "reply to group". It's hardly the mailing list's fault that your
client doesn't support that.

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Re: replying to list (I give up)

On 21 April 2010 14:38, Hans Åhlin wrote:
> Why change the way that has been around for years and adopted by
> multiple e-mail lists?
> It feels like it's more problem to change the way for thousands of
> users just to satisfy a couple of few.

David was venting based on a discussion in another thread. I'm pretty
sure he knows about the option to reply-all - that's part of the
reason for venting (it sends multiple emails instead of just the one
needed). The optimal scenario is to: 1) be able to quickly respond to
the list, as that's the normal action you want to do and 2) not spam
people with several emails for no reason (i.e. avoid replying to the
OP AND the list).

--=20

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Re: replying to list (I give up)

--=-ZPy96I6epRrg9EbNBD7j
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 14:49 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:

> On 21 April 2010 14:38, Hans Åhlin wrote=
:
> > Why change the way that has been around for years and adopted by
> > multiple e-mail lists?
> > It feels like it's more problem to change the way for thousands of
> > users just to satisfy a couple of few.
>=20
> David was venting based on a discussion in another thread. I'm pretty
> sure he knows about the option to reply-all - that's part of the
> reason for venting (it sends multiple emails instead of just the one
> needed). The optimal scenario is to: 1) be able to quickly respond to
> the list, as that's the normal action you want to do and 2) not spam
> people with several emails for no reason (i.e. avoid replying to the
> OP AND the list).
>=20
> --=20
>
> WWW: http://plphp.dk / http://plind.dk
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/plind
> Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fake51
> BeWelcome: Fake51
> Couchsurfing: Fake51
>
>=20


As I mentioned earlier, the Evolution mail client has a reply to list
option which I've used to send this to the list. A decent email client
*will* have this option somewhere, but if anyone is using one that
doesn't, Evolution is available for the majority of operating systems
out there.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk



--=-ZPy96I6epRrg9EbNBD7j--

Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 14:42 +0200, Daniel Egeberg wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 14:27, David McGlone wrote:
> > I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
> > pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
> > the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most people
> > are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.
>
> Then get a better email client if yours doesn't support "reply to all"
> or "reply to group". It's hardly the mailing list's fault that your
> client doesn't support that.

My email client does support "reply to all", but it's IMHO
inconsiderate.

Think about people that have to pay for every Mb they download. "reply
to all" causes these people to have to pay for duplicates.

Now if somebody on this list was paying for their downloads, then you
and I am costing them money by using "reply to all" and now there are 2
duplicate messages for them the download.

How would you feel if this was you?

--
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David M.


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Re: replying to list (I give up)

--=-heff8DATIKzaQxk0j5WJ
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 08:56 -0400, David McGlone wrote:

> On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 14:42 +0200, Daniel Egeberg wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 14:27, David McGlone wrote:
> > > I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
> > > pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
> > > the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most people
> > > are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.
> >
> > Then get a better email client if yours doesn't support "reply to all"
> > or "reply to group". It's hardly the mailing list's fault that your
> > client doesn't support that.
>
> My email client does support "reply to all", but it's IMHO
> inconsiderate.
>
> Think about people that have to pay for every Mb they download. "reply
> to all" causes these people to have to pay for duplicates.
>
> Now if somebody on this list was paying for their downloads, then you
> and I am costing them money by using "reply to all" and now there are 2
> duplicate messages for them the download.
>
> How would you feel if this was you?
>
> --
> Blessings,
> David M.
>
>


Did you read the link that David Robley sent on the original thread you
made?
http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

What you're proposing would cause a lot of problems for the sake of a
few people. And I hardly think that a few emails are going to cause a
bandwidth issue for anybody. If bandwidth was such an issue, they'd be
using an email client that only downloaded the email headers first, and
from there you could easily discern the duplicate messages.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk



--=-heff8DATIKzaQxk0j5WJ--

Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 14:49 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:
> On 21 April 2010 14:38, Hans Åhlin wrote=
:
> > Why change the way that has been around for years and adopted by
> > multiple e-mail lists?
> > It feels like it's more problem to change the way for thousands of
> > users just to satisfy a couple of few.
>=20
> David was venting based on a discussion in another thread. I'm pretty
> sure he knows about the option to reply-all - that's part of the
> reason for venting (it sends multiple emails instead of just the one
> needed). The optimal scenario is to: 1) be able to quickly respond to
> the list, as that's the normal action you want to do and 2) not spam
> people with several emails for no reason (i.e. avoid replying to the
> OP AND the list).

Exactly. I also feel bad for those who have to pay to download per Mb,
GB, etc.

It's pitiful that once I send this E-Mail, Peter and Hans both will get
2 of the exact messages.

--=20
Blessings,
David M.


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Re: replying to list (I give up)

Daniel Egeberg wrote:

> Then get a better email client if yours doesn't support "reply to all"
> or "reply to group". It's hardly the mailing list's fault that your
> client doesn't support that.

Nonsense. I have used lists like this for many, many years. PHP lists
are the only ones I have ever used that behave this way. All the others
I have used are configured that a simple "Reply" replies to the list.

Sure, you can always "Reply All" but then you get multiple replies from
the same person to the same post. Plus, it is really easy to forget.

In my opinion, it is idiotic.

OTOH, what is important to me is the quality of the information that
comes in from you incredibly generous people. Thank you to all posters.
You are the best.

The list behavior is just an irritant, but it pales in comparison to the
benefit.


Ken

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Re: replying to list (I give up)

David McGlone wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 14:49 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:
>> On 21 April 2010 14:38, Hans Åhlin wrote:
>>> Why change the way that has been around for years and adopted by
>>> multiple e-mail lists?
>>> It feels like it's more problem to change the way for thousands of
>>> users just to satisfy a couple of few.
>> David was venting based on a discussion in another thread. I'm pretty
>> sure he knows about the option to reply-all - that's part of the
>> reason for venting (it sends multiple emails instead of just the one
>> needed). The optimal scenario is to: 1) be able to quickly respond to
>> the list, as that's the normal action you want to do and 2) not spam
>> people with several emails for no reason (i.e. avoid replying to the
>> OP AND the list).
>
> Exactly. I also feel bad for those who have to pay to download per Mb,
> GB, etc.
>
> It's pitiful that once I send this E-Mail, Peter and Hans both will get
> 2 of the exact messages.

I thought you just wanted to know why it is the way it is? Now you're
passing judgement.

Cheers,
Rob.
--
http://www.interjinn.com
Application and Templating Framework for PHP

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Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 09:19 -0400, Robert Cummings wrote:
> David McGlone wrote:
> > On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 14:49 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:
> >> On 21 April 2010 14:38, Hans Åhlin wr=
ote:
> >>> Why change the way that has been around for years and adopted by
> >>> multiple e-mail lists?
> >>> It feels like it's more problem to change the way for thousands of
> >>> users just to satisfy a couple of few.
> >> David was venting based on a discussion in another thread. I'm pretty
> >> sure he knows about the option to reply-all - that's part of the
> >> reason for venting (it sends multiple emails instead of just the one
> >> needed). The optimal scenario is to: 1) be able to quickly respond to
> >> the list, as that's the normal action you want to do and 2) not spam
> >> people with several emails for no reason (i.e. avoid replying to the
> >> OP AND the list).
> >=20
> > Exactly. I also feel bad for those who have to pay to download per Mb,
> > GB, etc.
> >=20
> > It's pitiful that once I send this E-Mail, Peter and Hans both will get
> > 2 of the exact messages.
>=20
> I thought you just wanted to know why it is the way it is? Now you're=20
> passing judgement.

I'm not passing judgment, It just saddens me that I have to send
multiple messages and this isn't because of anyone, it's because of my
lack of knowledge on how to reply to lists that are set up in this way.
But I think the "reply to list" like ash suggested solves the multiples
problem.

And on a positive note, If I wouldn't have brought this discussion up, I
would have never known. Pretty sure I do now.


--=20
Blessings,
David M.


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Re: replying to list (I give up)

On 21 April 2010 14:56, Ashley Sheridan wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 08:56 -0400, David McGlone wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 14:42 +0200, Daniel Egeberg wrote:
>> > On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 14:27, David McGlone wrote:
>> > > I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
>> > > pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
>> > > the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most people
>> > > are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.
>> >
>> > Then get a better email client if yours doesn't support "reply to all"
>> > or "reply to group". It's hardly the mailing list's fault that your
>> > client doesn't support that.
>>
>> My email client does support "reply to all", but it's IMHO
>> inconsiderate.
>>
>> Think about people that have to pay for every Mb they download. "reply
>> to all" causes these people to have to pay for duplicates.
>>
>> Now if somebody on this list was paying for their downloads, then you
>> and I am costing them money by using "reply to all" and now there are 2
>> duplicate messages for them the download.
>>
>> How would you feel if this was you?
>>
>> --
>> Blessings,
>> David M.
>>
>>
>
>
> Did you read the link that David Robley sent on the original thread you
> made?
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
>
> What you're proposing would cause a lot of problems for the sake of a
> few people. And I hardly think that a few emails are going to cause a
> bandwidth issue for anybody. If bandwidth was such an issue, they'd be
> using an email client that only downloaded the email headers first, and
> from there you could easily discern the duplicate messages.

Except it wouldn't cause a lot of problems, now would it? As you've
heard from quite a few others, many mailing lists work using the
'reply-to' ... and have happy users. Most of the points in the doc you
posted a link to are viewpoints from someone that's used to one thing
and hates the idea of things changing - whether or not it makes life
easier (the "It makes things break" for instance ... calling replying
to the list instead of the OP a "break" is rather farfetched unless
you've stared at something you hate for so long you've become blinded
byt it. Then there's the "Freedom of choice": well, where's my freedom
of choice? I can't use 'reply' as I want to, so it's effectively
reduced *my* freedom).

Quick guess is by now, the majority of people clicking "reply" *mean*
to reply to the list but in effect reply to the OP. Using "reply-to"
would help these people. Anyone using "reply-all" would see no
difference. So when you're advocating that many subscribers should
ditch their email client and install Evolution instead of having *one*
email list have it's settings changed a bit ... I start to wonder if
you've considered things from both sides.

Regards
Peter

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Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 13:56 +0100, Ashley Sheridan wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 08:56 -0400, David McGlone wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 14:42 +0200, Daniel Egeberg wrote:
> > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 14:27, David McGlone wrote:
> > > > I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
> > > > pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
> > > > the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most people
> > > > are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.
> > >
> > > Then get a better email client if yours doesn't support "reply to all"
> > > or "reply to group". It's hardly the mailing list's fault that your
> > > client doesn't support that.
> >
> > My email client does support "reply to all", but it's IMHO
> > inconsiderate.
> >
> > Think about people that have to pay for every Mb they download. "reply
> > to all" causes these people to have to pay for duplicates.
> >
> > Now if somebody on this list was paying for their downloads, then you
> > and I am costing them money by using "reply to all" and now there are 2
> > duplicate messages for them the download.
> >
> > How would you feel if this was you?
> >
> > --
> > Blessings,
> > David M.
> >
> >
>
>
> Did you read the link that David Robley sent on the original thread you
> made?
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

Yes. but if it was so harmful, why does the 40, 50 or so lists that I've
been on, simply let you hit the reply and it goes back to the list?

I am not arguing or upset, I am just so puzzled as to why the list has
this behavior. It is tedious to have to remember which lists I am on
will accept simply hitting the reply and those that don't.

>
> What you're proposing would cause a lot of problems for the sake of a
> few people.

I'm not proposing anything. Don't get me wrong. It's just so mind
boggling why this behavior. I read and understand the idea behind that
link, but if it was so harmful why is the majority of mailing lists
allowing a simple "reply"?

> And I hardly think that a few emails are going to cause a
> bandwidth issue for anybody. If bandwidth was such an issue, they'd be
> using an email client that only downloaded the email headers first, and
> from there you could easily discern the duplicate messages.

Thats true, I agree. But what about those that are not computer savvy?
Take my wife for instance. LOL

Also, I do not want this discussion to turn into a flame war or anything
of such. I am simply just trying to have a discussion and learn why and
how there is different behavior here, but not anywhere else. And I am
also venting just a tad bit, because for the last 15 years up until I
joined this list 6 months or so ago, I have never seen this issue, and
changing habits after 15 years is quite hard, but I can't change my
habits if I don't figure out how and why.


PS. I used the "reply to list" on this e-mail. Do you know of any way I
can add an icon to my tool bar instead of clicking on the Message menu
or hitting ctrl+l?

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David M.


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Re: replying to list (I give up)

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On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 9:33 AM, David McGlone wrote:

> I'm not passing judgment, It just saddens me that I have to send
> multiple messages and this isn't because of anyone, it's because of my
> lack of knowledge on how to reply to lists that are set up in this way.
> But I think the "reply to list" like ash suggested solves the multiples
> problem.
>
> And on a positive note, If I wouldn't have brought this discussion up, I
> would have never known. Pretty sure I do now.
>
>
>

Every couple years this discussion comes up. Cracks me up every time.

When you hit reply all, just take out all the other addresses and leave the
list one in there. The list was setup like this years ago on purpose, and
they've stated in the past they don't want to change it..

--
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--001485f85e40d237380484bf5a03--

Re: replying to list (I give up)

On 21 April 2010 15:41, Dan Joseph wrote:
> When you hit reply all, just take out all the other addresses and leave t=
he
> list one in there.  The list was setup like this years ago on purpos=
e, and
> they've stated in the past they don't want to change it..

And waste time every single time you post to the list ... why do
people become programmers/developers again? To end creating technical
solutions they can then avoid using by doing extra, pointless manual
work?

Anyway, if there's no chance of changing the minds of the people
administering the list, the discussion might as well end now.

--=20

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LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/plind
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Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 09:41, Dan Joseph wrote:
>
> When you hit reply all, just take out all the other addresses and leave t=
he
> list one in there. =A0The list was setup like this years ago on purpose, =
and
> they've stated in the past they don't want to change it..

And we won't, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it
probably does irk a few folks, so this will continue to come up now
and again. As annoying as some may find it, though, it's not
something we're going to change.

--=20

daniel.brown@parasane.net || danbrown@php.net
http://www.parasane.net/ || http://www.pilotpig.net/
Looking for hosting or dedicated servers? Ask me how we can fit your budge=
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Re: replying to list (I give up)

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Hello David McGlone,

Am 2010-04-21 08:27:18, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
> pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
> the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most people
> are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.

You are using Evolution and I am wondering,
why you do not use the "List-Reply Button"!

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator

--=20
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ######################
Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux

itsystems@tdnet France itsystems@tdnet UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Gesch. Michelle Konzack Gesch. Michelle Konzack

Apt. 917 (homeoffice)
50, rue de Soultz Kinzigstraße 17
67100 Strasbourg/France 77694 Kehl/Germany
Tel: +33-6-61925193 mobil Tel: +49-177-9351947 mobil
Tel: +33-9-52705884 fix




Jabber linux4michelle@jabber.ccc.de
ICQ #328449886

Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/

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Re: replying to list (I give up)

Peter Lind wrote:
> On 21 April 2010 15:41, Dan Joseph wrote:
>> When you hit reply all, just take out all the other addresses and leave the
>> list one in there. The list was setup like this years ago on purpose, and
>> they've stated in the past they don't want to change it..
>
> And waste time every single time you post to the list ... why do
> people become programmers/developers again? To end creating technical
> solutions they can then avoid using by doing extra, pointless manual
> work?

Well most of us have read this thread now... and it kinda burned up
about 4 years worth of time to remove the extraneous addresses :B

Cheers,
Rob.
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Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 09:41 -0400, Dan Joseph wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 9:33 AM, David McGlone wrote:
>
> > I'm not passing judgment, It just saddens me that I have to send
> > multiple messages and this isn't because of anyone, it's because of my
> > lack of knowledge on how to reply to lists that are set up in this way.
> > But I think the "reply to list" like ash suggested solves the multiples
> > problem.
> >
> > And on a positive note, If I wouldn't have brought this discussion up, I
> > would have never known. Pretty sure I do now.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Every couple years this discussion comes up. Cracks me up every time.
>
> When you hit reply all, just take out all the other addresses and leave the
> list one in there. The list was setup like this years ago on purpose, and
> they've stated in the past they don't want to change it..
>

I'm the type of person that figures out how and why and then weighs my
options. Figuring out how to reply properly to this list was the first
step, now the next step is figuring out if I can deal with it or not.

I've decided to stay for a couple reasons, for one, everybody on this
list didn't once get mean or hateful during this whole discussion. That
flabbergasted me, because on a lot of lists I am on, quite a few people
on those lists would have instantly jumped down my throat. Secondly,
Everyone on this list that I have seen ask questions and give advise are
darn good programmers, so in order to be in the company of people like
this, then changing my habits shouldn't be hard.

The reason for the subject change was because I feared I was going to
start a flame war, so I was going to back down and just forget I
mentioned it.


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Re: replying to list (I give up)

2010/4/21 David McGlone :
> On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 14:49 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:
>> On 21 April 2010 14:38, Hans Åhlin wrot=
e:
>> > Why change the way that has been around for years and adopted by
>> > multiple e-mail lists?
>> > It feels like it's more problem to change the way for thousands of
>> > users just to satisfy a couple of few.
>>
>> David was venting based on a discussion in another thread. I'm pretty
>> sure he knows about the option to reply-all - that's part of the
>> reason for venting (it sends multiple emails instead of just the one
>> needed). The optimal scenario is to: 1) be able to quickly respond to
>> the list, as that's the normal action you want to do and 2) not spam
>> people with several emails for no reason (i.e. avoid replying to the
>> OP AND the list).
>
> Exactly. I also feel bad for those who have to pay to download per Mb,
> GB, etc.
>
> It's pitiful that once I send this E-Mail, Peter and Hans both will get
> 2 of the exact messages.
>

Strange I only got one, but it ma be a mail server filter

> --
> Blessings,
> David M.
>
>

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Re: replying to list (I give up)

2010/4/21 David McGlone :
> On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 14:49 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:
>> On 21 April 2010 14:38, Hans Åhlin wrot=
e:
>> > Why change the way that has been around for years and adopted by
>> > multiple e-mail lists?
>> > It feels like it's more problem to change the way for thousands of
>> > users just to satisfy a couple of few.
>>
>> David was venting based on a discussion in another thread. I'm pretty
>> sure he knows about the option to reply-all - that's part of the
>> reason for venting (it sends multiple emails instead of just the one
>> needed). The optimal scenario is to: 1) be able to quickly respond to
>> the list, as that's the normal action you want to do and 2) not spam
>> people with several emails for no reason (i.e. avoid replying to the
>> OP AND the list).
>
> Exactly. I also feel bad for those who have to pay to download per Mb,
> GB, etc.
>
> It's pitiful that once I send this E-Mail, Peter and Hans both will get
> 2 of the exact messages.
>

Strange I only got one, but it ma be a mail server filter

> --
> Blessings,
> David M.
>
>

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Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 16:12 +0200, Hans Åhlin wrote:
> 2010/4/21 David McGlone :
> > On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 14:49 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:
> >> On 21 April 2010 14:38, Hans Åhlin wr=
ote:
> >> > Why change the way that has been around for years and adopted by
> >> > multiple e-mail lists?
> >> > It feels like it's more problem to change the way for thousands of
> >> > users just to satisfy a couple of few.
> >>
> >> David was venting based on a discussion in another thread. I'm pretty
> >> sure he knows about the option to reply-all - that's part of the
> >> reason for venting (it sends multiple emails instead of just the one
> >> needed). The optimal scenario is to: 1) be able to quickly respond to
> >> the list, as that's the normal action you want to do and 2) not spam
> >> people with several emails for no reason (i.e. avoid replying to the
> >> OP AND the list).
> >
> > Exactly. I also feel bad for those who have to pay to download per Mb,
> > GB, etc.
> >
> > It's pitiful that once I send this E-Mail, Peter and Hans both will get
> > 2 of the exact messages.
> >
>=20
> Strange I only got one, but it ma be a mail server filter

I just received 3 copies of this message. One went to my PHP folder and
2 went to my Inbox.

--=20
Blessings,
David M.


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RE: replying to list (I give up)

I'm sure that the reason why the this list and a few others are setup =
this way so that if anyone want to reply just to the OP can do so =
without having to figure out or remembering the e-mail address of the =
sender.


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Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:20, David McGlone wrote:
>
> I just received 3 copies of this message. One went to my PHP folder and
> 2 went to my Inbox.

It was sent multiple times. Probably an intentional demonstration
of irony. ;-P

--

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Re: replying to list (I give up)

--0016e6d566695521e50484c01c04
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 21 April 2010 15:41, Dan Joseph wrote:

> When you hit reply all, just take out all the other addresses and leave the
> list one in there. The list was setup like this years ago on purpose, and
> they've stated in the past they don't want to change it..
>
> --
> -Dan Joseph
>
>
I'd like to refrain from actually passing judgement on this issue--since I
use reply-all by default I could live with both of these settings--but I'm
still curious as to why the list is set up the way it is.

What is the advantage of sending to the OP by default rather than the list?

Michiel

--0016e6d566695521e50484c01c04--

Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 16:12, Hans Åhlin =
wrote:
> 2010/4/21 David McGlone :
>> On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 14:49 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:
>>> On 21 April 2010 14:38, Hans Åhlin wro=
te:
>>> > Why change the way that has been around for years and adopted by
>>> > multiple e-mail lists?
>>> > It feels like it's more problem to change the way for thousands of
>>> > users just to satisfy a couple of few.
>>>
>>> David was venting based on a discussion in another thread. I'm pretty
>>> sure he knows about the option to reply-all - that's part of the
>>> reason for venting (it sends multiple emails instead of just the one
>>> needed). The optimal scenario is to: 1) be able to quickly respond to
>>> the list, as that's the normal action you want to do and 2) not spam
>>> people with several emails for no reason (i.e. avoid replying to the
>>> OP AND the list).
>>
>> Exactly. I also feel bad for those who have to pay to download per Mb,
>> GB, etc.
>>
>> It's pitiful that once I send this E-Mail, Peter and Hans both will get
>> 2 of the exact messages.
>>
>
> Strange I only got one, but it ma be a mail server filter

I'll have to say that I've never received duplicate messages on any of
the nine PHP.net mailing lists I'm subscribed to either.

--=20
Daniel Egeberg

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Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 16:32, Tommy Pham wrote:
> I'm sure that the reason why the this list and a few others are setup this way so that if anyone want to reply just to the OP can do so without having to figure out or remembering the e-mail address of the sender.

Yes, plus many of the people who send to lists such as php-webmaster@
generally do not actually subscribe. Sending a reply privately to
someone can also come in handy if you wish to comment privately on a
commit. Logs/diffs are sent to mailing lists and the From header will
always contain username@php.net.

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RE: replying to list (I give up)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: daniel.egeberg@gmail.com [mailto:daniel.egeberg@gmail.com] On
> Behalf Of Daniel Egeberg
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:40 AM
> To: Tommy Pham
> Cc: php-general@lists.php.net
> Subject: Re: [PHP] replying to list (I give up)
>=20



I'm using gmail's label which isn't the same as 'move to' filter. I'm =
pretty sure that I didn't receive duplicate. So it might that gmail's =
server has some detection method in place.


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Re: replying to list (I give up)

David McGlone wrote:

> Also, I do not want this discussion to turn into a flame war or
> anything of such. I am simply just trying to have a discussion and
> learn why and how there is different behavior here, but not anywhere
> else.=20

David, the PHP list behaves like hundreds or thousands of others in thi=
s
respect. Of course there are also lists that work the other way, but
the PHP list is far from alone.=20



--=20
Per Jessen, Zürich (17.0°C)


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Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 17:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
> David McGlone wrote:
>
> > Also, I do not want this discussion to turn into a flame war or
> > anything of such. I am simply just trying to have a discussion and
> > learn why and how there is different behavior here, but not anywhere
> > else.
>
> David, the PHP list behaves like hundreds or thousands of others in this
> respect. Of course there are also lists that work the other way, but
> the PHP list is far from alone.

It could be just me, but it seems to me this behavior is mostly PHP list
specific. The only other php list I am on is php-db. It doesn't have
this behavior so I guess I'm just not experienced enough to know
otherwise.

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Re: replying to list (I give up)

At 8:27 AM -0400 4/21/10, David McGlone wrote:
>I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
>pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
>the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most people
>are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.
>
>It just doesn't make sense to me, why be on the mailing list if it
>hinders having a group discussion without having to jump through
>hurdles. It also defeats the purpose of being on a group list if
>replying sends the reply to the OP.
>
>Every message sent to this list, simply hitting reply should send back
>to this list and not the OP.
>--
>Blessings,
>David M.

David:

Whenever I want to reply to the OP privately, I use their email address.

Whenever I want to reply to all, I use "PHP "

I do NOT (usually) use any quick "Reply" or "Reply to All" options in
my email program that sends stuff to everyone. Instead I think about
what I am sending and consider if anyone wants to receive my email.
Sure it's another step, but no more troublesome than trimming my
email to the point or other such considerations to make my replies
"on topic" and more readable.

I'm sorry that you feel that doing so is *so tedious* that you are
going to "give up", but consider the effort that is put forth by
those answering you you should reconsider how much effort you are
willing spend to make this list work. Sometimes things cannot be as
simple as "Click".

Cheers,

tedd
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Re: replying to list (I give up)

Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Hello David McGlone,
>
> Am 2010-04-21 08:27:18, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
>> I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
>> pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
>> the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most
>> people are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.
>
> You are using Evolution and I am wondering, why you do not use the
> "List-Reply Button"!

There is no such button in the Evolution version I am using, but Ctrl+L
works just as well.

I prefer to read this list as an nntp newsgroup on news.php.net.


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Re: replying to list (I give up)

David McGlone wrote:

> On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 17:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
>> David McGlone wrote:
>>=20
>> > Also, I do not want this discussion to turn into a flame war or
>> > anything of such. I am simply just trying to have a discussion and=

>> > learn why and how there is different behavior here, but not
>> > anywhere else.
>>=20
>> David, the PHP list behaves like hundreds or thousands of others in
>> this
>> respect. Of course there are also lists that work the other way, bu=
t
>> the PHP list is far from alone.
>=20
> It could be just me, but it seems to me this behavior is mostly PHP
> list specific.=20

Some examples of other lists that behave the same:

ntp-general
linux-kernel
spamassassin-general
rrdtool-users
opensuse-*
nasm-users
isdn4linux
asterisk-users
postfix-users
dovecot-general



--=20
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Re: replying to list (I give up)

--=_samba3-23439-1271873388-0001-2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Peter Lind,

Am 2010-04-21 15:47:54, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> And waste time every single time you post to the list ... why do
> people become programmers/developers again? To end creating technical
> solutions they can then avoid using by doing extra, pointless manual
> work?

Hmmm, being a Programmer/Developer since 1982 and have ever used decent
tools to accomplish a task... including the right MUA which simplify
the Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks.

> Anyway, if there's no chance of changing the minds of the people
> administering the list, the discussion might as well end now.

Why should Programmers/Developers bother with non-reliable MUAs which
do not support Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks?

If YOU are a Programmer/Developer why do you bother with a non-suitable
MUA?

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator

--=20
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ######################
Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux

itsystems@tdnet France itsystems@tdnet UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Gesch. Michelle Konzack Gesch. Michelle Konzack

Apt. 917 (homeoffice)
50, rue de Soultz Kinzigstraße 17
67100 Strasbourg/France 77694 Kehl/Germany
Tel: +33-6-61925193 mobil Tel: +49-177-9351947 mobil
Tel: +33-9-52705884 fix




Jabber linux4michelle@jabber.ccc.de
ICQ #328449886

Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/

--=_samba3-23439-1271873388-0001-2
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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IolM/Er5z8o8v2DlwEM9ex8=
=Yi7U
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--=_samba3-23439-1271873388-0001-2--

Re: replying to list (I give up)

--=_samba3-5159-1271873633-0001-2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Michiel Sikma,

Am 2010-04-21 16:35:50, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> I'd like to refrain from actually passing judgement on this issue--since I
> use reply-all by default I could live with both of these settings--but I'm
> still curious as to why the list is set up the way it is.
>=20
> What is the advantage of sending to the OP by default rather than the lis=
t?

Because DECENT MUA's have three options:

R) Reply to OP
G) Reply to Group
L) Reply to List

If you set Reply-To: to the list, you can not more send PM to the Poster
and you have to edit the message. This is WHY "Reply-To-List" exist.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator

--=20
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ######################
Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux

itsystems@tdnet France itsystems@tdnet UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Gesch. Michelle Konzack Gesch. Michelle Konzack

Apt. 917 (homeoffice)
50, rue de Soultz Kinzigstraße 17
67100 Strasbourg/France 77694 Kehl/Germany
Tel: +33-6-61925193 mobil Tel: +49-177-9351947 mobil
Tel: +33-9-52705884 fix




Jabber linux4michelle@jabber.ccc.de
ICQ #328449886

Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/

--=_samba3-5159-1271873633-0001-2
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Digital signature
Content-Disposition: inline

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iD8DBQFLz0BgC0FPBMSS+BIRAtwEAJ0ToV7B+0Uw0XdIUyFoMX7vI6Z6KwCc D+lk
OEZY8ZTT1gzbsXssM/CpUMs=
=y2Oe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--=_samba3-5159-1271873633-0001-2--

Re: replying to list (I give up)

--=_samba3-22282-1271874197-0001-2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Hans =C5hlin,

Am 2010-04-21 16:12:06, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> Strange I only got one, but it ma be a mail server filter

For me it is only worse, because if someone respond to a message with ME
in the Cc:, the Cc'ed message arrive first and will be trashed because I
have setup a filter which does

# Prevent duplicated messages
:0Whc
|formail -D 8000 .msg_id_cache
:0a
/dev/null

# Kill unwanted CC messages on my cell-phone
:0
* TO_linux4michelle@tamay-dogan.net
* ^List-Id:.*php-.*\.lists\.php\.net
/dev/null

:0
* ^List-Post:.*mailto:php-[-a-zA-Z0-9]+@
* ^List-Post:.*mailto:php-\/[-a-zA-Z0-9]+
.ML_php.${MATCH}/



Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator

--=20
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ######################
Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux

itsystems@tdnet France itsystems@tdnet UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Gesch. Michelle Konzack Gesch. Michelle Konzack

Apt. 917 (homeoffice)
50, rue de Soultz Kinzigstraße 17
67100 Strasbourg/France 77694 Kehl/Germany
Tel: +33-6-61925193 mobil Tel: +49-177-9351947 mobil
Tel: +33-9-52705884 fix




Jabber linux4michelle@jabber.ccc.de
ICQ #328449886

Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/

--=_samba3-22282-1271874197-0001-2
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hu+dW/cmxlhDShvB5nBAXec=
=NpSL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--=_samba3-22282-1271874197-0001-2--

Re: replying to list (I give up)

--=_samba3-3386-1271875087-0001-2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello David McGlone,

Am 2010-04-21 09:37:48, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> Yes. but if it was so harmful, why does the 40, 50 or so lists that I've
> been on, simply let you hit the reply and it goes back to the list?

Can you tell me which list these are? I assume that on most of those
lists are handicaped Windows-Users which can not do better du to there
cuted down ad restricting software which does not allow Users-Freedom...

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator

--=20
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ######################
Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux

itsystems@tdnet France itsystems@tdnet UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Gesch. Michelle Konzack Gesch. Michelle Konzack

Apt. 917 (homeoffice)
50, rue de Soultz Kinzigstraße 17
67100 Strasbourg/France 77694 Kehl/Germany
Tel: +33-6-61925193 mobil Tel: +49-177-9351947 mobil
Tel: +33-9-52705884 fix




Jabber linux4michelle@jabber.ccc.de
ICQ #328449886

Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/

--=_samba3-3386-1271875087-0001-2
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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r02zGYK+es4JzSDTj/v6mVE=
=kML6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--=_samba3-3386-1271875087-0001-2--

Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)

On 21 April 2010 20:09, Michelle Konzack w=
rote:
> Hello Peter Lind,

Hi Michelle

> Am 2010-04-21 15:47:54, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
>> And waste time every single time you post to the list ... why do
>> people become programmers/developers again? To end creating technical
>> solutions they can then avoid using by doing extra, pointless manual
>> work?
>
> Hmmm, being a Programmer/Developer since 1982 and have ever used  de=
cent
> tools to accomplish a task...  including the right  MUA  w=
hich  simplify
> the Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks.

Making it the problem of the MUA is a hack, not a solution. If you
really want to go down the "I have experience" route I'd expect you to
choose the "fix the problem at the root"-solution not the "lets hack
it by leaving the problem as is and requiring everyone to choose a
proper tool"-hack.

>> Anyway, if there's no chance of changing the minds of the people
>> administering the list, the discussion might as well end now.
>
> Why should Programmers/Developers bother with non-reliable  MUAs =C2=
=A0which
> do not support Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks?
>
> If YOU are a Programmer/Developer why do you bother with a  non-suit=
able
> MUA?

Please don't make assumptions about me and my tools - you have no
basis for them. Apart from that, I see no reason to call MUAs
'suitable' based on whether or not they fix a problem that should be
fixed elsewhere.
If I'm not mistaken, we're faced with a quite simple cost/benefit
scenario: how many people want to reply just to the list when
responding and how many people want to reply just to the OP when
responding. If the first number is higher than the second, then we're
imposing extra work on people (either by asking them to manually fix
email addresses or by bullying them into changing email clients) if we
stick to the solution that fit the second group.

But it's still a moot point, as the admins of the list won't be
changing settings.

Regards
Peter

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RE: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

[snip]tons of stuff[/snip]

C'mon folks! You're programmers! Don't like the way your mail client
handles the list? Then write an interface (using PHP of course) that
only responds to the list when you generate a reply.=20

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RE: Re: replying to list (I give up)

From: Michelle Konzack

> Hello Peter Lind,
>=20
> Am 2010-04-21 15:47:54, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
>> And waste time every single time you post to the list ... why do
>> people become programmers/developers again? To end creating technical
>> solutions they can then avoid using by doing extra, pointless manual
>> work?
>=20
> Hmmm, being a Programmer/Developer since 1982 and have ever used
decent
> tools to accomplish a task... including the right MUA which
simplify
> the Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks.
>=20
>> Anyway, if there's no chance of changing the minds of the people
>> administering the list, the discussion might as well end now.
>=20
> Why should Programmers/Developers bother with non-reliable MUAs
which
> do not support Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks?
>=20
> If YOU are a Programmer/Developer why do you bother with a
non-suitable
> MUA?

Probably because we don't have a choice. There is a legion of PHBs that
make those decisions for us, obviously without having any information
about what tools are really needed. I have to hand edit every response I
send here and to several other lists in order to add the quote markers
and move my content to the correct location. Lookout no longer offers
that option. It also lacks the reply-to-list action as well as several
others that would make life easier and simpler for everyone. I can't
replace it because it is closely bound to our Exchange servers for
scheduling and planning. So I won't have an option until after I retire,
and then I won't need this list at all. Fortunately, that is only a
couple of years away at most.

Bob McConnell

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Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)

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RE: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 13:51 -0500, Jay Blanchard wrote:
> [snip]tons of stuff[/snip]
>
> C'mon folks! You're programmers! Don't like the way your mail client
> handles the list? Then write an interface (using PHP of course) that
> only responds to the list when you generate a reply.

I wish I was that good! :-)
>
--
Blessings,
David M.


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Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 12:13 -0400, tedd wrote:
> At 8:27 AM -0400 4/21/10, David McGlone wrote:
> >I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
> >pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
> >the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most people
> >are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.
> >
> >It just doesn't make sense to me, why be on the mailing list if it
> >hinders having a group discussion without having to jump through
> >hurdles. It also defeats the purpose of being on a group list if
> >replying sends the reply to the OP.
> >
> >Every message sent to this list, simply hitting reply should send back
> >to this list and not the OP.
> >--
> >Blessings,
> >David M.
>
> David:
>
> Whenever I want to reply to the OP privately, I use their email address.
>
> Whenever I want to reply to all, I use "PHP "
>
> I do NOT (usually) use any quick "Reply" or "Reply to All" options in
> my email program that sends stuff to everyone. Instead I think about
> what I am sending and consider if anyone wants to receive my email.
> Sure it's another step, but no more troublesome than trimming my
> email to the point or other such considerations to make my replies
> "on topic" and more readable.
>
> I'm sorry that you feel that doing so is *so tedious* that you are
> going to "give up", but consider the effort that is put forth by
> those answering you you should reconsider how much effort you are
> willing spend to make this list work. Sometimes things cannot be as
> simple as "Click".

Hi Ted, thanks for the words of encouragement. The thread got a little
big pretty quick so you may have missed a previous post from me. here it
is:

"I'm the type of person that figures out how and why and then weighs my
options. Figuring out how to reply properly to this list was the first
step, now the next step is figuring out if I can deal with it or not.

I've decided to stay for a couple reasons, for one, everybody on this
list didn't once get mean or hateful during this whole discussion. That
flabbergasted me, because on a lot of lists I am on, quite a few people
on those lists would have instantly jumped down my throat. Secondly,
Everyone on this list that I have seen ask questions and give advise are
darn good programmers, so in order to be in the company of people like
this, then changing my habits shouldn't be hard.

The reason for the subject change was because I feared I was going to
start a flame war, so I was going to back down and just forget I
mentioned it."


I have learned to use the "reply to list" option. Something I never knew
existed.

Even though I prefer it the other way around, where hitting "reply" does
the job, I am willing to compromise just like many others on the
list. :-)

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David M.


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Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

--=_samba3-25087-1271880945-0001-2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Jay Blanchard,

Am 2010-04-21 13:51:39, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> [snip]tons of stuff[/snip]
>=20
> C'mon folks! You're programmers! Don't like the way your mail client
> handles the list? Then write an interface (using PHP of course) that
> only responds to the list when you generate a reply.=20

My MUA "mutt" is working PERFECTLY with the PHP and other mailinglists
with the same behaviour, but I have to setup special macros to ignore
some stupid configured mailinglistes which insert unwanted Reply-To:.

Oh, I have checked my mailinglist subsribtions and only 11 of 113 are
using this stupid Reply-To: stuff... But as I already mentioned, those
lists have manly Windows-Noobs which do not know better... speak, they
can not use there brain and let Microsoft and Co thinking for them..

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator

--=20
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ######################
Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux

itsystems@tdnet France itsystems@tdnet UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Gesch. Michelle Konzack Gesch. Michelle Konzack

Apt. 917 (homeoffice)
50, rue de Soultz Kinzigstraße 17
67100 Strasbourg/France 77694 Kehl/Germany
Tel: +33-6-61925193 mobil Tel: +49-177-9351947 mobil
Tel: +33-9-52705884 fix




Jabber linux4michelle@jabber.ccc.de
ICQ #328449886

Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/

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--=_samba3-25087-1271880945-0001-2--

Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 20:38 +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Hello David McGlone,
>
> Am 2010-04-21 09:37:48, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> > Yes. but if it was so harmful, why does the 40, 50 or so lists that I've
> > been on, simply let you hit the reply and it goes back to the list?
>
> Can you tell me which list these are? I assume that on most of those
> lists are handicaped Windows-Users which can not do better du to there
> cuted down ad restricting software which does not allow Users-Freedom...

To name a few:

Linux 4 Christians
Christian Source Free Open Source LUG (CS-FSLUG)
KDE *
Gnome *
Central Ohio Linux Users Group


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David M.


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Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:51 PM, Jay Blanchard wrote:

> Then write an interface (using PHP of course) that
> only responds to the list when you generate a reply.

LOL
WT??

WHY would we want to do that? Much unnecessary work when an admin
could set a reply-to and all would be solved.
With all due respect, if I was going to go through all that trouble
just so I could hit reply instead of reply-all or reply-list or reply-
group,
I would write an email list program that discussed PHP (in PHP) and I
would set the reply-to to go to my list email.
:)

Not to mention, the admin can set all of them to go to the list email.

reply-to
reply-list
reply-group

They just have to set the headers to point there. Much easier than
what was suggested.

That aside, I think David was just wondering why it was set up that
way in the first part.
More a question for a admin, then the list, but it is on the list
none the less.
I would have sent that one to the Admin directly.

It is curious though, why the admin of the PHP lists depend on
special case scenarios such as reply-list or reply-group.
To me, thats kind of like saying you can only click buttons on our
website if you use Internet Explorer.
Everyone else has to view the source and copy the urls to navigate.

Best,

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com


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RE: Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

> Oh, I have checked my mailinglist subsribtions and only 11 of 113
> are using this stupid Reply-To: stuff... But as I already mentioned,
> those lists have manly Windows-Noobs which do not know better...
> speak, they can not use there brain and let Microsoft and Co thinking
> for them..
>=20
> Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
> Michelle Konzack
> Systemadministrator
[Dewey Williams]=20

No need to get nasty. Some people MUST use Windows and OUTLOOK! (which
does not have reply to list) where they work.

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Re: Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 22:56, Williams, Dewey wrote:
>> Oh, I have checked my mailinglist subsribtions and only 11  of =C2=
=A0113
>> are using this stupid Reply-To:  stuff...  But as I already me=
ntioned,
>> those lists have manly Windows-Noobs which do not know better...
>> speak,  they can not use there brain and let Microsoft and Co think=
ing
>> for them..
>>
>> Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
>>     Michelle Konzack
>>     Systemadministrator
>  [Dewey Williams]
>
> No need to get nasty.  Some people MUST use Windows and OUTLOOK! (wh=
ich
> does not have reply to list) where they work.

And some people choose Windows of their own free will. Linux is not
for everyone, and anyone who is bigoted enough to think so need to get
over themselves. Trying to impose one's choice of operating system (or
anything else for that matter) onto someone else is plain ridiculous.

--=20
Daniel Egeberg

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Re: Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

--00163630ff21905cc20484c7d040
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

My goodness, are you people still going on about all this? LOL... let it
go... it is what it is.

--
-Dan Joseph

www.canishosting.com - Unlimited Hosting Plans start @ $3.95/month. Promo
Code "NEWTHINGS" for 10% off initial order

http://www.facebook.com/canishosting
http://www.facebook.com/originalpoetry

--00163630ff21905cc20484c7d040--

Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)

--=-pQtZGpxCv3TY22DAiloj
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 19:55 +0000, Bobby Pejman wrote:

> I must say, I never heard or even thought of the idea of calling it LookOut. Hahaha. It made me laugh for a good 10 minutes and if that term is open source, I will be using it ;)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Bob McConnell"
> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:01:55
> To: Michelle Konzack;
> Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)
> From: Michelle Konzack
>
> > Hello Peter Lind,
> >
> > Am 2010-04-21 15:47:54, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> >> And waste time every single time you post to the list ... why do
> >> people become programmers/developers again? To end creating technical
> >> solutions they can then avoid using by doing extra, pointless manual
> >> work?
> >
> > Hmmm, being a Programmer/Developer since 1982 and have ever used
> decent
> > tools to accomplish a task... including the right MUA which
> simplify
> > the Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks.
> >
> >> Anyway, if there's no chance of changing the minds of the people
> >> administering the list, the discussion might as well end now.
> >
> > Why should Programmers/Developers bother with non-reliable MUAs
> which
> > do not support Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks?
> >
> > If YOU are a Programmer/Developer why do you bother with a
> non-suitable
> > MUA?
>
> Probably because we don't have a choice. There is a legion of PHBs that
> make those decisions for us, obviously without having any information
> about what tools are really needed. I have to hand edit every response I
> send here and to several other lists in order to add the quote markers
> and move my content to the correct location. Lookout no longer offers
> that option. It also lacks the reply-to-list action as well as several
> others that would make life easier and simpler for everyone. I can't
> replace it because it is closely bound to our Exchange servers for
> scheduling and planning. So I won't have an option until after I retire,
> and then I won't need this list at all. Fortunately, that is only a
> couple of years away at most.
>
> Bob McConnell
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>


Outlook is a pita sometimes. At my last job I just used Evolution and
connected over the OWA, as at the time I had to use my own laptop
because of a lack of computers available.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk



--=-pQtZGpxCv3TY22DAiloj--

Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

--=-Q4+z98QUBv34HryXGag9
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 15:55 -0500, Karl DeSaulniers wrote:

> On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:51 PM, Jay Blanchard wrote:
>
> > Then write an interface (using PHP of course) that
> > only responds to the list when you generate a reply.
>
> LOL
> WT??
>
> WHY would we want to do that? Much unnecessary work when an admin
> could set a reply-to and all would be solved.
> With all due respect, if I was going to go through all that trouble
> just so I could hit reply instead of reply-all or reply-list or reply-
> group,
> I would write an email list program that discussed PHP (in PHP) and I
> would set the reply-to to go to my list email.
> :)
>
> Not to mention, the admin can set all of them to go to the list email.
>
> reply-to
> reply-list
> reply-group
>
> They just have to set the headers to point there. Much easier than
> what was suggested.
>
> That aside, I think David was just wondering why it was set up that
> way in the first part.
> More a question for a admin, then the list, but it is on the list
> none the less.
> I would have sent that one to the Admin directly.
>
> It is curious though, why the admin of the PHP lists depend on
> special case scenarios such as reply-list or reply-group.
> To me, thats kind of like saying you can only click buttons on our
> website if you use Internet Explorer.
> Everyone else has to view the source and copy the urls to navigate.
>
> Best,
>
> Karl DeSaulniers
> Design Drumm
> http://designdrumm.com
>
>


I believe Dan Brown mentioned a very good reason why this is not as
simple an issue as just changing the reply-to. Not everyone who posts to
the list subscribes to the list, so being copied into the emails is good
for them. Suddenly changing the way things work could actually be
detrimental to the list. Imagine how many people joined up *after*
posting a question and receiving a good answer.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk



--=-Q4+z98QUBv34HryXGag9--

Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Wednesday 21 April 2010 12:16:28 O. Lavell wrote:
> Michelle Konzack wrote:
> > Hello David McGlone,
> >
> > Am 2010-04-21 08:27:18, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> >> I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
> >> pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
> >> the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most
> >> people are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.
> >
> > You are using Evolution and I am wondering, why you do not use the
> > "List-Reply Button"!
>
> There is no such button in the Evolution version I am using, but Ctrl+L
> works just as well.
>
> I prefer to read this list as an nntp newsgroup on news.php.net.
>

I switched to Kontact where I am able to add a "reply to list" button on the
tool bar.

I put it right beside the "reply" so when I go to hit the "reply" It will
remind me of which one I actually need to hit.

I'm trying to make my computer work for me so I can focus on PHP, not the
other way around. So after 16 years, I'm done tinkering with my OS's. It gets
old and writing scripts for every little thing that I think will make my life
easier is just a thing of the past for me.

Now-a-days the only tinkering I have to do is adding my samba shares to fstab
when I do fresh installs, and installing apps I use that aren't included by
default.

Simple, quick and to the point. Thats all I care about anymore.

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Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)

--0016e68ea0a7dab4bd0484d2c82a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi,

I am planning to install on embedded device. Please help me to reduce the
binary footprint.

thanks,
Mitul modi

--0016e68ea0a7dab4bd0484d2c82a--

Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 08:52, Mitul Modi wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am planning to install on embedded device. Please help me to reduce the
> binary footprint.

You sent two messages to the Install list and then hijacked this
thread. Send a new message to php-general@lists.php.net and ask for
help. If you don't get a response, you'll have to try somewhere else,
because it's possible that no one here knows the answer you're trying
to find. In no case, however, should you ever hijack a thread like
this.

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Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

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On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 17:06 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:

> On 22 April 2010 12:14, Ashley Sheridan wrote:
> > I believe Dan Brown mentioned a very good reason why this is not as
> > simple an issue as just changing the reply-to. Not everyone who posts to
> > the list subscribes to the list, so being copied into the emails is good
> > for them. Suddenly changing the way things work could actually be
> > detrimental to the list. Imagine how many people joined up *after*
> > posting a question and receiving a good answer.
>
> That wouldn't change - they only get copied in when you choose
> 'reply-all' and that would work the same whether or not a 'reply-to'
> is used.
>
> Regards
> Peter
>


It would change for the first reply. You say you just want to hit reply
to reply to the list. Now if anyone hits reply, because the reply-to'
header has been changed, the reply goes to the list and not the op.
They're not subscribed and so they miss out.

The way things stand, hitting reply instead of reply to all sends the
reply back to the op only. It happens on this list often and doesn't
cause many issues as the op or replyer notices and sends/copies the list
back in again.

Changing the reply-to header would mean that if someone just hit reply,
the unsubscribed op wouldn't get the reply at all, and any further
replies to that thread would all be to the list only and the
unsubscribed op would never know.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk



--=-kUWAsE81F7Zv7R4A+bC4--

Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

On 22 April 2010 12:14, Ashley Sheridan wrote:
> I believe Dan Brown mentioned a very good reason why this is not as
> simple an issue as just changing the reply-to. Not everyone who posts to
> the list subscribes to the list, so being copied into the emails is good
> for them. Suddenly changing the way things work could actually be
> detrimental to the list. Imagine how many people joined up *after*
> posting a question and receiving a good answer.

That wouldn't change - they only get copied in when you choose
'reply-all' and that would work the same whether or not a 'reply-to'
is used.

Regards
Peter

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Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

On 22 April 2010 17:05, Ashley Sheridan wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 17:06 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:
>
> On 22 April 2010 12:14, Ashley Sheridan wrote:
> > I believe Dan Brown mentioned a very good reason why this is not as
> > simple an issue as just changing the reply-to. Not everyone who posts to
> > the list subscribes to the list, so being copied into the emails is good
> > for them. Suddenly changing the way things work could actually be
> > detrimental to the list. Imagine how many people joined up *after*
> > posting a question and receiving a good answer.
>
> That wouldn't change - they only get copied in when you choose
> 'reply-all' and that would work the same whether or not a 'reply-to'
> is used.
>
> Regards
> Peter
>
>
> It would change for the first reply. You say you just want to hit reply to reply to the list. Now if anyone hits reply, because the reply-to' header has been changed, the reply goes to the list and not the op. They're not subscribed and so they miss out.

You seem to forget the amount of people stating "remove the other
addresses" from the "reply-all" response. Also, if you don't want to
subscribe to a mailing list, the onus is really on you to make sure
you get the response if any comes.

> The way things stand, hitting reply instead of reply to all sends the reply back to the op only. It happens on this list often and doesn't cause many issues as the op or replyer notices and sends/copies the list back in again.

It's rather annoying and easily avoided. The question is whether this
problem is bigger than people not subscribed to the list not getting a
response, because people use "reply" instead of "reply all".

> Changing the reply-to header would mean that if someone just hit reply, the unsubscribed op wouldn't get the reply at all, and any further replies to that thread would all be to the list only and the unsubscribed op would never know.

Emailing a mailing list and expecting an automated response is ... I
don't want to be negative or arrogant, but I think there's a general
and rather problematic lack of experience there. It's a bit like
walking past a group of people, yelling a question at them, then
expecting one of them to run back to you with the answer after you've
passed. Would you normally expect that kind of behaviour?
Apart from that, if in the current scenario you just hit 'reply' and
send the email off to the OP, the list doesn't get the benefit - and
the OP is not going to change that fact, as they're not subscribed to
the list and won't notice anyway. Which is worse, one person having to
check the answer by looking at the mailing list archive or the rest of
the list not benefiting at all from the answer?

Regards
Peter

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Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

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On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 17:35 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:

> Which is worse, one person having to
> check the answer by looking at the mailing list archive or the rest of
> the list not benefiting at all from the answer?


Well, as that one person was the one who needed the help enough to ask
the question in the first place...

I just don't agree that the reply-to field should be changed. Most email
clients are intelligent enough to recognise mailing lists when they see
them, and those that aren't, well, I don't think the world should have
to change to fit in with poor software. I know that often people don't
have a choice with what is installed on a computer, but surely it's
better trying to speak to whoever is in-charge of that to ask them to
change their procedures than get however many shared systems (i.e.
mailing lists) to change their methods?

I guess I'm too far gone down the open source route now to 'get' the
closed source problems that many people face in their offices. If I
don't like a piece of software, I can choose different software, contact
the developers, or even attempt to create a workaround myself.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk



--=-TE8r/gpJnk9JFAt1Zl0m--

Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

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Hello Karl DeSaulniers,

Am 2010-04-21 15:55:41, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> WHY would we want to do that? Much unnecessary work when an admin
> could set a reply-to and all would be solved.
> With all due respect, if I was going to go through all that trouble
> just so I could hit reply instead of reply-all or reply-list or
> reply-group,

And WHY do you want to restrict my freedom to choose to which I can
respond? This is something like censorship!

Oh, there ARE Mail-Cients for Windows which understand reply-all and
reply-list and reply-group

> They just have to set the headers to point there. Much easier than
> what was suggested.

This is associal!

> It is curious though, why the admin of the PHP lists depend on
> special case scenarios such as reply-list or reply-group.
> To me, thats kind of like saying you can only click buttons on our
> website if you use Internet Explorer.
> Everyone else has to view the source and copy the urls to navigate.

On some of my pages you will be kicked off if you come in with Infernal
Exploder. Hahaha!

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator

--=20
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ######################
Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux

itsystems@tdnet France itsystems@tdnet UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Gesch. Michelle Konzack Gesch. Michelle Konzack

Apt. 917 (homeoffice)
50, rue de Soultz Kinzigstraße 17
67100 Strasbourg/France 77694 Kehl/Germany
Tel: +33-6-61925193 mobil Tel: +49-177-9351947 mobil
Tel: +33-9-52705884 fix




Jabber linux4michelle@jabber.ccc.de
ICQ #328449886

Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/

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ow/eyvfRymJrC/CqRuur7HA=
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Re: Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

Is this the new "threading support" thread?!?!

Why don't nuke everything then its nothing to use or complain about...

**********************************************
Hans Åhlin
Tel: +46761488019
http://www.kronan-net.com/
irc://irc.freenode.net:6667 - TheCoin
**********************************************



2010/4/22 Michelle Konzack :
> Hello Karl DeSaulniers,
>
> Am 2010-04-21 15:55:41, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
>> WHY would we want to do that? Much unnecessary work when an admin
>> could set a reply-to and all would be solved.
>> With all due respect, if I was going to go through all that trouble
>> just so I could hit reply instead of reply-all or reply-list or
>> reply-group,
>
> And WHY do you want to restrict my freedom to  choose  to =C2=
=A0which  I  can
> respond?  This is something like censorship!
>
> Oh, there ARE Mail-Cients for Windows  which  understand  =
reply-all  and
> reply-list and reply-group
>
>> They just have to set the headers to point there. Much easier than
>> what was suggested.
>
> This is associal!
>
>> It is curious though, why the admin of the PHP lists depend on
>> special case scenarios such as reply-list or reply-group.
>> To me, thats kind of like saying you can only click buttons on our
>> website if you use Internet Explorer.
>> Everyone else has to view the source and copy the urls to navigate.
>
> On some of my pages you will be kicked off if you come in with  Infe=
rnal
> Exploder.  Hahaha!
>
> Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
>    Michelle Konzack
>    Systemadministrator
>
> --
> ##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ######################
>   Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux
>
> itsystems@tdnet France           itsystems@tdnet=
UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
> Gesch. Michelle Konzack          Gesch. Michelle=
Konzack
>
> Apt. 917 (homeoffice)
> 50, rue de Soultz               Kinzig=
straße 17
> 67100 Strasbourg/France         77694 Kehl/Germany
> Tel: +33-6-61925193 mobil       Tel: +49-177-9351947 mobil
> Tel: +33-9-52705884 fix
>
>   rg/>
>         www.can4linux.org/>
>
> Jabber linux4michelle@jabber.ccc.de
> ICQ    #328449886
>
> Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
>

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Re: Re: Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

:)

On Apr 22, 2010, at 2:26 PM, Michelle Konzack wrote:

> Hello Karl DeSaulniers,
>
> Am 2010-04-21 15:55:41, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
>> WHY would we want to do that? Much unnecessary work when an admin
>> could set a reply-to and all would be solved.
>> With all due respect, if I was going to go through all that trouble
>> just so I could hit reply instead of reply-all or reply-list or
>> reply-group,
>
> And WHY do you want to restrict my freedom to choose to which
> I can
> respond? This is something like censorship!

? I think you read wrong. I wouldn't be hindering your ability to use
other reply buttons.
Nothing anyone really can do about the reply-all. if they are going
to reply-all then they are the ones choosing that.
When I hit reply though, just reply and not reply-all, list, or
group, I think it should go back to the list. thats all.

You can hit any reply button you like. ;)

>
> Oh, there ARE Mail-Cients for Windows which understand reply-
> all and
> reply-list and reply-group

I am on a Mac, so I don't know what this comment has to do with me.
I think your referring to the Windows users comment someone else said.
The point I had was that there is no need to have a message from the
list reply back to the poster, but the list.

>
>> They just have to set the headers to point there. Much easier than
>> what was suggested.
>
> This is associal!

No opensocial..
I wouldnt be against setting the reply-list and reply-group for other
people. :)


>
>> It is curious though, why the admin of the PHP lists depend on
>> special case scenarios such as reply-list or reply-group.
>> To me, thats kind of like saying you can only click buttons on our
>> website if you use Internet Explorer.
>> Everyone else has to view the source and copy the urls to navigate.
>
> On some of my pages you will be kicked off if you come in with
> Infernal
> Exploder. Hahaha!

lol

>
> Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
> Michelle Konzack
> Systemadministrator
>
>

But alas, I am done. There really is nothing I can do but accept how
the process is set up.
It is not the most efficient list, but one of the best in terms of
people and knowledge,
so like I said before, I will keep deleting emails.

Best,


Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com


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