Ten Years of Considerate Help

--Apple-Mail-3-916724327
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=windows-1252

Hi List,

It's hard for me to accept this mailing list has been around for ten =
years!
http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.beginners/2001/04/msg1.h tml

The catalyst for creating this list was my embarassing display on the =
Perl 5 Porters mailing list on April 9, 2001.
=
http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2001/04/ms g33850.html

Shortly after I made my pitch for this list:
=
http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2001/04/ms g33899.html

I've not been involved for years, as many of you know. It was pointed =
out to me by a couple individuals that the situation here has been =
deteriorating. I'm sorry to hear that. In part the idea of this list was =
modeled after the Python help desk and tutor mailing lists. =
Incidentally, their tutor mailing list is more than twelve years old!
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/tutor/1999-March/000001.htm l

However, like our list, it appears the natural tenor of the list has =
changed. For example:

"Now, given this is a list for beginners to Python, could you
try explaining what you did there and how the OP, or
anyone else for that matter, might use it?

"Or were you really just trying to establish that if
you try hard you can write Python that is as
difficult to read as Perl?"
-- http://mail.python.org/pipermail/tutor/2011-April/083157.htm l

Shortly after this mailing list got off the ground I wrote an article =
trying to instigate the Perl community to embrace the idea of a safe =
place for newcomers, both to Perl and programming. It's been pointed out =
I was marginally hyperbolic, but only a little. My abuse of the comma, =
however, has no justification. I quoted from the preface of a popular =
Perl book at the time, closing my argument thusly:

"But, paradoxically, the way in which Perl helps you the most has
almost nothing to do with Perl, and everything to do with the people
who use Perl. Perl folks are, frankly, some of the most helpful folks
on earth. If there's a religious quality to the Perl movement, then =
this
is at the heart of it. Larry wanted the Perl community to function =
like
a little bit of heaven, and he seems to have gotten his wish, so far.
Please do your part to keep it that way."
-- Preface, Programming Perl 2nd Edition
http://www.perl.com/pub/2001/05/29/tides.html

At least one of the active members of this mailing list today either =
wrote that, helped write it, or agreed to have it printed in his book.

It's been ten amazing years. I was 21 years old when this list began and =
I thought I could do anything [0]. I'm a little bit older these days and =
it shows [1]. It's time to formally pass the torch of moderating this =
list to more presently capable hands. What's the job? =46rom the FAQ:

1.10 - Who will maintain peace and flow on the list?

Casey West, Kevin Meltzer and Ask Bjoern Hansen currently carry large,
yet padded, clue-sticks to maintain peace and order on the list. If =
you are
privately emailed by one of these folks for flaming, being off-topic, =
etc...
please listen to what they say. If you see a message sent to the list =
by
one of these people saying that a thread is closed, do not continue to =
post
to the list on that thread! If you do, you will not only meet face to =
face with
a XQJ-37 nuclear powered pansexual roto-plooker, but you may also be
taken off of the list. These people simply want to make sure the list =
stays
topical, and above-all, useful to Perl beginners.
-- =
http://learn.perl.org/faq/beginners.html#1.10+who+will+maint ain+peace+and+=
flow+on+the+list

Anyone here with the desire and temperament can do that. If you would =
like to formally take this role please email me (casey@geeknest.com) or =
email. We'll work to determine the required =
steps to update the FAQ and get your standard issue padded clue-stick in =
the mail. Are you up for it?

In one week I'm going to speak to a couple hundred high school kids =
about what it's like to be a software developer. My career has been fun =
and rewardingâ€=94dare I say successfulâ€=94thanks to the open =
source software community. Thanks to you, all of you, for participating =
and enriching my life with your positive contributions to code, =
community, and consideration. Keep up the good work and please don't =
lose sight of the goal. I look forward to encouraging those children to =
find open source communities and ask questions, explore with enthusiasm, =
because there will be people willing to give you a help, on your level, =
just because it's a nice thing to do.

Cheers,

--=20
Casey West

[0] http://www.flickr.com/photos/juliancash/752860152/
[1] http://www.flickr.com/photos/caseywest/5539950715/


--Apple-Mail-3-916724327--

Re: Ten Years of Considerate Help

Hi Casey and List,

On Friday 22 Apr 2011 20:39:15 Casey West wrote:
> Hi List,
>=20
> It's hard for me to accept this mailing list has been around for ten year=
s!
> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.beginners/2001/04/msg1.h tml
>=20

Great.

> The catalyst for creating this list was my embarassing display on the Perl
> 5 Porters mailing list on April 9, 2001.
> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2001/04/ms g33850.html
>=20
> Shortly after I made my pitch for this list:
> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2001/04/ms g33899.html
>=20

Thanks for the history.

> I've not been involved for years, as many of you know. It was pointed out
> to me by a couple individuals that the situation here has been
> deteriorating. I'm sorry to hear that. In part the idea of this list was
> modeled after the Python help desk and tutor mailing lists. Incidentally,
> their tutor mailing list is more than twelve years old!
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/tutor/1999-March/000001.htm l

Yes, I am sorry that this list has also deteriorated a bit, though it could=
be=20
much worse. I'll do my best to maintain a good atmosphere here withing my=20
powers.

I've recommended this list on:

http://perl-begin.org/mailing-lists/

along with a list of some other mailing lists useful for beginners. I'll=20
probably deprecate a few now that I look at that page.

I recall that the traffic on the list was very overwhelming and that someon=
e=20
commented to me that whenever he set to compose a message answering a=20
beginner, he already got several good replies by the time he finished. The=
=20
traffic now may also be a bit too much, even for experienced people, but I=
=20
recall it being much higher.

> However, like our list, it appears the natural tenor of the list has
> changed. For example:
>=20
> "Now, given this is a list for beginners to Python, could you
> try explaining what you did there and how the OP, or
> anyone else for that matter, might use it?
>=20
> "Or were you really just trying to establish that if
> you try hard you can write Python that is as
> difficult to read as Perl?"
> -- http://mail.python.org/pipermail/tutor/2011-April/083157.htm l
>=20

Heh, heh. Yes, Paul Graham discussed bad apples ruining such online forums,=
in=20
one of his blog or web site posts. Can't remember which was that. This post=
of=20
mine is useful:

http://unarmed.shlomifish.org/909.html

It discusses Dealing with Provocative Internet people - based on the approa=
ch=20
in the book "Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy".

> Shortly after this mailing list got off the ground I wrote an article
> trying to instigate the Perl community to embrace the idea of a safe place
> for newcomers, both to Perl and programming. It's been pointed out I was
> marginally hyperbolic, but only a little. My abuse of the comma, however,
> has no justification. I quoted from the preface of a popular Perl book at
> the time, closing my argument thusly:
>=20
> "But, paradoxically, the way in which Perl helps you the most has
> almost nothing to do with Perl, and everything to do with the people
> who use Perl. Perl folks are, frankly, some of the most helpful folks
> on earth. If there's a religious quality to the Perl movement, then th=
is
> is at the heart of it. Larry wanted the Perl community to function like
> a little bit of heaven, and he seems to have gotten his wish, so far.
> Please do your part to keep it that way."
> -- Preface, Programming Perl 2nd Edition
> http://www.perl.com/pub/2001/05/29/tides.html
>=20
> At least one of the active members of this mailing list today either wrote
> that, helped write it, or agreed to have it printed in his book.

:-).

>=20
> It's been ten amazing years. I was 21 years old when this list began and I
> thought I could do anything [0]. I'm a little bit older these days and it
> shows [1]. It's time to formally pass the torch of moderating this list to
> more presently capable hands. What's the job? From the FAQ:
>=20
> 1.10 - Who will maintain peace and flow on the list?
>=20
> Casey West, Kevin Meltzer and Ask Bjoern Hansen currently carry large,
> yet padded, clue-sticks to maintain peace and order on the list. If you
> are privately emailed by one of these folks for flaming, being off-topic,
> etc... please listen to what they say. If you see a message sent to the
> list by one of these people saying that a thread is closed, do not
> continue to post to the list on that thread! If you do, you will not only
> meet face to face with a XQJ-37 nuclear powered pansexual roto-plooker,
> but you may also be taken off of the list. These people simply want to
> make sure the list stays topical, and above-all, useful to Perl beginners.
> --
> http://learn.perl.org/faq/beginners.html#1.10+who+will+maint ain+peace+and+
> flow+on+the+list
>=20
> Anyone here with the desire and temperament can do that. If you would like
> to formally take this role please email me (casey@geeknest.com) or
> email. We'll work to determine the required
> steps to update the FAQ and get your standard issue padded clue-stick in
> the mail. Are you up for it?
>=20

I've already expressed this desire in private. If possible, Instead of taki=
ng=20
someone off the list, it would be good if I can make their posts moderated,=
=20
and let them resend these posts after I give some commentary.

> In one week I'm going to speak to a couple hundred high school kids about
> what it's like to be a software developer. My career has been fun and
> rewarding—dare I say successfulâ€â=
€thanks to the open source software
> community. Thanks to you, all of you, for participating and enriching my
> life with your positive contributions to code, community, and
> consideration. Keep up the good work and please don't lose sight of the
> goal. I look forward to encouraging those children to find open source
> communities and ask questions, explore with enthusiasm, because there will
> be people willing to give you a help, on your level, just because it's a
> nice thing to do.

Sounds good. I hope that some of them would be interested enough to contrib=
ute=20
to open-source. See:

http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/How_to_start_contrib uting_to_or_usi=
ng_Open_Source_Software

(short URL - http://xrl.us/bhjbgk )

There's a more comprehensive book under works on=20
http://teachingopensource.org/ .

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

=2D-=20
=2D--------------------------------------------------------- -------
Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
"Star Trek: We, the Living Dead" - http://shlom.in/st-wtld

I'd love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code.
-- Unknown

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

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Re: Ten Years of Considerate Help

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:39:15 -0400, Casey West wrote:
> Shortly after this mailing list got off the ground I wrote an article
> trying to instigate the Perl community to embrace the idea of a safe
> place for newcomers, both to Perl and programming. It's been pointed ou=
t
> I was marginally hyperbolic, but only a little. My abuse of the comma,
> however, has no justification. I quoted from the preface of a popular
> Perl book at the time, closing my argument thusly:
>=20
> "But, paradoxically, the way in which Perl helps you the most has
> almost nothing to do with Perl, and everything to do with the people
> who use Perl. Perl folks are, frankly, some of the most helpful folk=
s
> on earth. If there's a religious quality to the Perl movement, then
> this is at the heart of it. Larry wanted the Perl community to
> function like a little bit of heaven, and he seems to have gotten hi=
s
> wish, so far. Please do your part to keep it that way."
> -- Preface, Programming Perl 2nd Edition
> http://www.perl.com/pub/2001/05/29/tides.html

Thanks, Casey, for coming back and demonstrating that intelligence and=20
politeness are not mutually exclusive. I encourage people who haven't=20
read your article linked above to do so; it contains some excellent and=20
concise explanations of the rationale for civil treatment of beginners.

One more explanation that might help was given to me by the founder of=20
the O'Reilly School of Technology, who I am creating courses for. He is=20
very enthusiastic and inspiring about education, and wants to make sure=20
all the OST courses follow his vision, and he recognizes that expertise=20
is not the same thing as teaching ability, so he impressed upon his=20
authors the following model. =20

He breaks down students into a bell curve. On the right tail are the=20
early adopters like Randal, me, Uri, Casey, and other experts we could=20
all name. These people will learn something, anything, and everything=20
without any external prodding; they just go off and hunt down the=20
resources, read the manual, experiment. They're completely self-starting=
..

The middle of the bell curve - where the most students are - contains=20
people who learn better with varying levels of help and encouragement,=20
ranging from a point in the right direction to more directed help from a=20
mentor. OST courses (and Stonehenge, etc, courses) are for them. They'd=
=20
be a waste of time for the people on the right tail.

People out on the right tail are particularly prone to thinking that the=20
best or only way to learn is the same way they did - self-motivated=20
figuring things out from the manual and experimentation - and that any=20
other approach is inferior or wrong. But it's simply not going to work=20
for the folk in the middle of the curve, who learn a different way. Some=
=20
folk on the right tail think that if they beat up the people in the=20
middle enough, they'll migrate to the right tail - where the "right"=20
people are. Any instances of this actually working are so rare as to be=20
the exceptions that prove the rule.

Note that this is a bell curve of learning types, *not* intelligence or=20
ability. And as other posters have pointed out, someone can be in the=20
right tail in one discipline, like bioinformatics, and in the middle in=20
another - like Perl.

--=20
Peter Scott
http://www.perlmedic.com/ http://www.perldebugged.com/
http://www.informit.com/store/product.aspx?isbn=3D0137001274
http://www.oreillyschool.com/courses/perl3/

--=20
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For additional commands, e-mail: beginners-help@perl.org
http://learn.perl.org/

Re: Ten Years of Considerate Help

On 4/22/2011 3:17 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
>
> I recall that the traffic on the list was very overwhelming and that someone
> commented to me that whenever he set to compose a message answering a
> beginner, he already got several good replies by the time he finished. The
> traffic now may also be a bit too much, even for experienced people, but I
> recall it being much higher.
>

That is common to all online forums and nothing to be concerned with.

These forums were setup to help answer questions - many questioners
today will Google and find answers, often from archives of mailing lists
like this.

In the last decade I have gotten answers to problems from postings as
old as 8 years prior.

>
> http://unarmed.shlomifish.org/909.html
>
> It discusses Dealing with Provocative Internet people - based on the approach
> in the book "Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy".
>

Actually what is more useful about that link isn't your post, it is all
the blog posts appended to your post.

I don't frankly believe that engaging people in the manner you describe
works very well. I think pretty much everyone has been taught by their
mothers at a young age the difference between asking for something in
a rude SOB manner and asking nicely. So the "aggressive posting" or
"trolling" or whatever you want to call it usually originates from
people who know better. Like porno, we know it when we see it.

I suspect the reason things are not so polite on this list anymore
has much more to do with the changing nature of lists than anything
else. As I said, most people nowadays try googling up their answers
first, and only post to a forum as a last resort. So the posts your
going to see on these lists really are asking questions that cover
very "cutting edge" territory of Perl, where there is going to be more
disagreement. Such as, for example, the question of when do you
abandon old code and stop fixing bugs in it and replace it with
new code written in a modern style? There is no right answer for
this, at least not one that most people would agree on. Thus the
beginner who posts this is really asking an opinion question. That
is guaranteed to get a lot of opposing responses.

It is really better for most people to simply NOT respond to what they
think is trolling. Let the list members who DON'T think the post is
trolling, respond, and stay out of the thread. I think that is the best
advice for all online forums.

Ted

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Re: [OT] Ten Years of Considerate Help

On 2011-04-27 10:58, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> things are not so polite on this list anymore

Just another example of self hypnosis.

As I already suggested before:
kill file all posters that post off-topic without flagging it as such,
and let all '[OT]' flagged messages be marked as read, and the list is
fine as ever.

--
Ruud


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Re: Ten Years of Considerate Help

Hi Ted,

It was a thought provoking E-mail. Let me reply.

On Wednesday 27 Apr 2011 11:58:48 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> On 4/22/2011 3:17 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> > I recall that the traffic on the list was very overwhelming and that
> > someone commented to me that whenever he set to compose a message
> > answering a beginner, he already got several good replies by the time he
> > finished. The traffic now may also be a bit too much, even for
> > experienced people, but I recall it being much higher.
>=20
> That is common to all online forums and nothing to be concerned with.
>=20
> These forums were setup to help answer questions - many questioners
> today will Google and find answers, often from archives of mailing lists
> like this.
>=20
> In the last decade I have gotten answers to problems from postings as
> old as 8 years prior.
>=20

You are probably right. I should also note that there's a lot of other choi=
ce,=20
with Facebook forums (%-)), IRC, StackExchange sites (Stackoverflow/etc.),=
=20
other web-forums (including perlmonks, which was very similar to=20
Stackoverflow, a long time before SO existed) and others. So measuring=20
activity based on traffic is misleading.

One thing that irks me is that many people who ask questions intuitively th=
ink=20
that asking the question in private (whether by accident or by intention) i=
s a=20
good idea. If I'm saying "foobar: add my to a variable" and get "/msg rindo=
lf=20
What is my?" then I need to tell him to answer on the channel, because he=20
didn't study IRC netiquette. Of course, many people don't do that (most?) a=
nd=20
just type my nickname manually (sometimes misspelt) but it happens often=20
enough to get me irritated. I've seen my replies to a /msg 's a few years b=
ack=20
(I have comprehensive logs) and they were much more friendly and polite tha=
n=20
those recently.

There's also the problem of the /topic not being read, which isn't really=20
surprising giving that most users don't read most messages that are posted =
to=20
a screen manually (it's a very known phenomenon in user-interface design an=
d=20
you must get to the bottom of it.).

Of course, it doesn't help that people measure stuff based on such silly=20
metrics, such as number of subscribers or participants or number of posts p=
er=20
year, which as you indicate is stupid. A lot of people think that Eric S/=20
Raymond (ESR) no longer does nothing of value in the open source software=20
world, and just writes documents all day and posts silly posts and comments=
on=20
his blog, but he actually did a lot of work on many random small stuff (and=
=20
was quite quiet about it). This is one reason why my "Recent Hacktivity" bl=
og=20
posts were important in the past, because like ESR, I tend to do a lot of=20
random work on things that interest me or even that I need. (Maybe Mr. Raym=
ond=20
should get a technical blog, because his non-technical "Armed and Dangerous=
"=20
blog is a bitâ€=A6 something, and even I don't read it.).

But thanks for the insight. I guess online forums now focus more on helping=
=20
people with "Why my code does not work?" or answering people with really=20
complex questions, or answering people who are too clueless or too lazy to=
=20
Google, or just discussing tangential topics (humour/etc.). This may actual=
ly=20
be a good thing, as you indicate and we just got to accepting it.

> > http://unarmed.shlomifish.org/909.html
> >=20
> > It discusses Dealing with Provocative Internet people - based on the
> > approach in the book "Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy".
>=20
> Actually what is more useful about that link isn't your post, it is all
> the blog posts appended to your post.
>=20
> I don't frankly believe that engaging people in the manner you describe
> works very well. I think pretty much everyone has been taught by their
> mothers at a young age the difference between asking for something in
> a rude SOB manner and asking nicely. So the "aggressive posting" or
> "trolling" or whatever you want to call it usually originates from
> people who know better. Like porno, we know it when we see it.

Hmmm..... maybe you're right. Still, if you reply properly, politely and in=
a=20
friendly manner, you will be a few steps above the poster who say something=
=20
like "pyton suxors! pearl is mch better, LOL, l0sers." (which is probably t=
oo=20
lame to be a professional troll[1]) and thus people (and him) will think th=
at=20
you are winning. This is like I recall seeing a fellow Perl monger at our=20
meetings in Tel Aviv University, in his work alphet which was a very elegan=
t=20
uniform, and then when I saw him come to my home for picking up some stuff =
in=20
T-shirts and shorts (out of convenience), I had a much lower opinion on him.

If you phrase yourself properly, with proper spelling, grammar, punctuation=
,=20
capitalisation, idioms, etc. then people will consciouly and subconsciously=
=20
think that you know what you're saying, even if you are much more clueless.=
=20
This may be related to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect .

[1] - we had one very sophisticated professional troll on #perl who posted=
=20
code and then discussed how to write it properly ad-nuseum. Thing is he see=
med=20
to have known Perl very well, only pretended to be clueless. Eventually, I=
=20
moved him to #perlcafe , and asked him what he studied and we quickly=20
discovered it was an elaborate practical joke and he was probably laughing =
his=20
ass off at us all the time.

While he was malevolently reducing the SNR, it seemed like he was very=20
professional as professional trolls go, and so was quite formidable and awe-
inspiring as trolls go. Anyway, we realised now that if a person requires t=
oo=20
much hand-holding (whether a professional troll or not) then they will be=20
requested to move to #perlcafe or #perl-cats or wherever where they will do=
=20
less damage.

>=20
> I suspect the reason things are not so polite on this list anymore
> has much more to do with the changing nature of lists than anything
> else. As I said, most people nowadays try googling up their answers
> first, and only post to a forum as a last resort. So the posts your
> going to see on these lists really are asking questions that cover
> very "cutting edge" territory of Perl, where there is going to be more
> disagreement. Such as, for example, the question of when do you
> abandon old code and stop fixing bugs in it and replace it with
> new code written in a modern style? There is no right answer for
> this, at least not one that most people would agree on. Thus the
> beginner who posts this is really asking an opinion question. That
> is guaranteed to get a lot of opposing responses.
>=20

Well, yes or no, some people are clueless or lazy, and they need to be trea=
ted=20
with respect, because they are potential contributors and have friends who=
=20
care about them and some of them may even be star programmers, the kind who=
=20
write a Lisp compiler in Assembly on the weekend for the Palm Pilot=20
(naturally, this is an exaggeration, I was just paraphrasing Joel). There i=
s a=20
limit to how much you can be rude to people, as clueless as they are, while=
=20
this hurting your reputation a lot. I don't want Perl to end up like GIMP,=
=20
which is an incredibly powerful, important and usable project, with some=20
talented people working on it, but since they are very hostile towards co-
developers on the gimp-dev mailing list and other places no one works to wo=
rk=20
for them (and yes, I was a GIMP contributer at the time.). GIMP could have=
=20
been much further along the road today if they had been more polite and=20
friendly (which isn't hard).=20

Now, the perl5-porters people are very polite and courteus, and encourage=20
small and large contributions, but most people know a little better than to=
=20
post questions there. It's good that many people post to the Perl mongers=20
mailing lists where people are more polite than here, but it's not enough.

I'm not saying you shouldn't instruct a person to use "strict;" and=20
"warnings;" (which will be one step backwards and eventually two steps=20
forward) or refuse to write his complex homework project for him, or whatev=
er,=20
but we should still be more hospitable. Someone here accused me of always=20
being phony, but I told him that I'd rather err a little on being phony tha=
n=20
on being rude and laconic and annoying, because the latter indicates that y=
ou=20
don't care about the other person's feelings.

> It is really better for most people to simply NOT respond to what they
> think is trolling. Let the list members who DON'T think the post is
> trolling, respond, and stay out of the thread. I think that is the best
> advice for all online forums.

Maybe. Still, asking "Why this code does not work?" is not trolling, and we=
=20
should dissect the code. There are still many bad Perl tutorials out there =
and=20
until we do some white-hat SEO work to reclaim Google , we will need to do =
it.

My original response to Uri's post with advice was out-of-line and I now kn=
ow=20
better to respond to him in private, but I was only hoping for him to say=20
"Yes, you're right, I'll try to pay attention" (and it wasn't aimed at him=
=20
specifically.).

If you haven't read=20
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Thousand_Leagues_Under_t he_Sea already,=
=20
you should. It tells the story of Captain Nemo, a person with a "Criminal=20
Mind", who thinks the world at large is evil, and that people are superfici=
al=20
and that he and his crew are the only right people in the world. (I've met=
=20
someone like that on IRC, and he is very persistent.). So he designs a=20
submarine, build it and decides to live under the sea. Only this submarine=
,=20
while a fine innovation is hardly the end-all and be-all of submarines (rea=
d=20
the book to know why), which shows how incompetent Nemo actually is, becaus=
e=20
he thinks it's still perfect, and does not want to share his invention with=
=20
the world and asking for improvements. I'm not claiming the people on this=
=20
list are anywhere near as destructive or incompetent as Captain Nemo is, bu=
t=20
it's still a valid analogy.

Howard Roark, the noble arcitect protagonist of The Fountainhead (a very go=
od=20
book, BTW) exhibits similar symptoms, because instead of publishing as=20
knowledge in books, and training future architects, he keeps all his insigh=
ts=20
to himself. Maybe when Rand wrote this book (and Atlas Shrugged naturally)=
=20
keeping things secret was more fashionable, so we need to judge her works=20
based on that (and many modern day Randians are all about being open and=20
sharing their knowledge[Wikip], and insights, and that's what Ayn Rand=20
practiced too when publishing her works as books), so it could be much wors=
e.=20
I guess no one's perfect, and as time progress, so does our views of what i=
s=20
right and what is wrong.

[Wikip] - there's a very good coverage of Randianism on the English wikiped=
ia=20
and other wikimedia projects.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

=2D-=20
=2D--------------------------------------------------------- -------
Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
What does "Zionism" mean? - http://shlom.in/def-zionism

When Chuck Norris uses git, he takes a coffee break after initiating every =
git=20
commit. And then he waits for the commit to finish.

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

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Re: Ten Years of Considerate Help

--000e0cd30bbe15ad8e04a473c6fb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:59 AM, Casey West wrote:

> 1.10 - Who will maintain peace and flow on the list?
>
> [...]

> --
> http://learn.perl.org/faq/beginners.html#1.10+who+will+maint ain+peace+and+flow+on+the+list
>
> Anyone here with the desire and temperament can do that. If you would like
> to formally take this role please email me (casey@geeknest.com) or email<
> beginners-workers@perl.org>. We'll work to determine the required steps to
> update the FAQ and get your standard issue padded clue-stick in the
> mail. Are you up for it?
>

I received three unsolicited recommendations for moderators to this list,
one volunteer, and three unsolicited requests to deny moderatorship from
some individuals. Some of these lists intersected one another. The response
from those recommended to me was underwhelming or non-existant. Very few
seem to be particularly keen for this task. This is not a very good
response.

Further, one member pointed out my lack of aggressively pursuing new
leadership on this list, which is a valid and constructive criticism. In
truth I lack the drive to seek out new, interested, and appropriately
mindful moderators. Open source and open communities are built to adapt and
self-heal when members come and go. Indeed, I have been away from this
community for more than half a decade.

I'm proud of what has been accomplished by this list and its members over
the many, many years. I leave it in your hands to generate new and
meaningful leadership in the void my absence has created. I'm confident you
can, though it may take some work.

Good luck, may the force be with you, and so on.

Cheers,

--
Casey West

--000e0cd30bbe15ad8e04a473c6fb--

Re: Ten Years of Considerate Help

On 30/05/2011 01:57, Casey West wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:59 AM, Casey West wrote:
>
>> 1.10 - Who will maintain peace and flow on the list?
>>
>> [...]
>
>> --
>> http://learn.perl.org/faq/beginners.html#1.10+who+will+maint ain+peace+and+flow+on+the+list

Casey, in view of what you have said to me privately I think this
reference is disingenuous. The section reads

> Casey West, Kevin Meltzer and Ask Bjoern Hansen currently carry
> large, yet padded, clue-sticks to maintain peace and order on the
> list. If you are privately emailed by one of these folks for flaming,
> being off-topic, etc... please listen to what they say. If you see a
> message sent to the list by one of these people saying that a thread
> is closed, do not continue to post to the list on that thread! If you
> do, you will not only meet face to face with a XQJ-37 nuclear powered
> pansexual roto-plooker, but you may also be taken off of the list.
> These people simply want to make sure the list stays topical, and
> above-all, useful to Perl beginners.

So you would have us mutiny and ignore the authority that stands at
yourself, Kevin, and Ask?

Rob

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Re: Ten Years of Considerate Help

On 30 May 2011 01:57, Casey West wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:59 AM, Casey West wrote:
>
>
> I received three unsolicited recommendations for moderators to this list,
> one volunteer, and three unsolicited requests to deny moderatorship from
> some individuals. Some of these lists intersected one another. The response
> from those recommended to me was underwhelming or non-existant. Very few
> seem to be particularly keen for this task. This is not a very good
> response.
>
> Further, one member pointed out my lack of aggressively pursuing new
> leadership on this list, which is a valid and constructive criticism. In
> truth I lack the drive to seek out new, interested, and appropriately
> mindful moderators. Open source and open communities are built to adapt and
> self-heal when members come and go. Indeed, I have been away from this
> community for more than half a decade.
>
> I'm proud of what has been accomplished by this list and its members over
> the many, many years. I leave it in your hands to generate new and
> meaningful leadership in the void my absence has created. I'm confident you
> can, though it may take some work.
>
> Good luck, may the force be with you, and so on.

I'd like to put an idea out to see what the list thinks, what if Casey
asked for a moderator to take on the role for one year and then the
list hold an electon[1] in 12 months time for another moderator.

My reason for suggesting this is because I suspect that the lack of
enthusiastic responses may be because many of the more proficient
coders on the list are also busy with other commitments and don't
relish taking on another. I also wonder what level of proficiency the
moderator would need. There are several very proficient, regular
responders on the list as well as very proficient responders that dip
in from time to time. Does the moderator necessarily need to be highly
skilled with perl? Presumably being good with perl is required but
ensuring the points in the Administriva is the purpose of moderating.

Ultimately we need to allow Casey to move on, so a consensus of some
kind is needed.

[1] Terms to be decided.

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Re: Ten Years of Considerate Help

On Tue, 31 May 2011 18:13:20 +0100, Dermot wrote:
> I'd like to put an idea out to see what the list thinks, what if Casey
> asked for a moderator to take on the role for one year and then the lis=
t
> hold an electon[1] in 12 months time for another moderator.

That's as reasonable an idea as any. I could quibble, but I'd sooner see=
=20
action taken than endless debate.

The actual power of any moderator at this point is limited, I think, to=20
requesting an end to certain threads. You can't remove anyone as far as=20
I know; you could have someone removed from the mailing list but it is=20
possible to post to this group via NNTP; that's how I do it. I don't=20
think the means to prevent someone from coming in that way exists.

Ultimately we are simply talking about an agreement to respect the=20
requests of one or more people. So that when they request a thread be=20
closed, there isn't a response of, "So who put you in charge... oh yeah."

This doesn't have to be difficult.=20

--=20
Peter Scott
http://www.perlmedic.com/ http://www.perldebugged.com/
http://www.informit.com/store/product.aspx?isbn=3D0137001274
http://www.oreillyschool.com/courses/perl3/

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